Can Salvation be lost??

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Jun 24, 2010
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#21
Starfield or any of you that believe this way concerning salvation. Would want to receive from God a salvation that can be lost or forfeited because of your actions or a disposition of the heart that might forsake God in some way? Is this the kind of salvation that was offered through the death, burial and RESURRECTION of Christ? Would you want to know and have fellowship with the Saviour that would offer that kind of salvation to those that trust Him and call upon His name to be saved? Is this kind of salvation related to the eternal redemption that was obtained for us by Christ in (Heb 9:12). Is this what is means to be saved to the uttermost when we come to God by faith through Christ in (Heb 7:25)?

If the blood of Christ has put away our sins, would God have to bring them back and impute them unto us if we lost or forfeited our salvation? Wouldn't that make God's salvation predicated or made complete on our behavior and not on God's ability to keep us through His own power through faith unto salvation (Rom 1:16, 1Pt 1:5)?
 
Mar 18, 2011
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#22
Red we have free will. Even His top angel chose to leave.

Also what of the rich man? Jesus said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

do we really believe we have the ALL-TIME-SUPER Hall pass? that excuses anything without consequence? I definitely don't

 
Oct 31, 2011
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#23
Good points, Deadtosin.
Red we have free will. Even His top angel chose to leave.
The top angel decided to make himself God. That comes under blasphene the HS.
Also what of the rich man?
The rich man made riches his God to lead him, not the true God.

Do we really believe we have the ALL-TIME-SUPER Hall pass[]
Because God says we can’t make ourselves holy and fit for salvation ourselves, without His grace, certainly does not give us any free pass, just follow your flesh. We must pay. But when we accept Christ we have forgiveness available. John the Baptist pointed the way to our forgiveness, it included repentance. I am saying the Hall pass is for salvation, dependent on God’s grace not our works. That pass doesn’t rule out works. I like your point.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
Red we have free will. Even His top angel chose to leave.

Also what of the rich man? Jesus said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

do we really believe we have the ALL-TIME-SUPER Hall pass? that excuses anything without consequence? I definitely don't

Yes we have free will, God also has omniscience, Jesus said that god promised all who would come to him before time began, Do you not understand what this means? God knew who would be saved before the first man was even created. That means God saved those who will be saved KNOWING EVERY EVIL THOUGHT ACTION OR DEED that person would ever commit, before that person was ever born.

so do you think God is going to save someone, then be shown to be in error and have to take his salvation back. KNOWING everything you would ever do before he saved you in the first place?
 
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Mar 18, 2011
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#25
yes I understand it, but there are lots of warnings in the bible about staying on the path so I think that realization may help keep some of Christs followers clinging to Him for safety, again Yes I believe God knows that in advance yes that He would only save those who would end up being saved, but again He warns us for a reason. Thats all I'm sayin. God bless you both.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#26
Starfield or any of you that believe this way concerning salvation. Would want to receive from God a salvation that can be lost or forfeited because of your actions or a disposition of the heart that might forsake God in some way? Is this the kind of salvation that was offered through the death, burial and RESURRECTION of Christ? Would you want to know and have fellowship with the Saviour that would offer that kind of salvation to those that trust Him and call upon His name to be saved? Is this kind of salvation related to the eternal redemption that was obtained for us by Christ in (Heb 9:12). Is this what is means to be saved to the uttermost when we come to God by faith through Christ in (Heb 7:25)?

If the blood of Christ has put away our sins, would God have to bring them back and impute them unto us if we lost or forfeited our salvation? Wouldn't that make God's salvation predicated or made complete on our behavior and not on God's ability to keep us through His own power through faith unto salvation (Rom 1:16, 1Pt 1:5)?
Eternal salvation is promised for all those who remain in Christ. Salvation is being redeemed from sin and is imputed not by works but by grace through faith; it has to be present to secure eternal salvation. Eternal security or salvation is not a license to sin. God has a part to play in keeping us through His power but one can willingly leave Him= no longer redeemed from sin. Everyone has freewill.
1 Peter 2:25
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#27
Red we have free will. Even His top angel chose to leave.

Also what of the rich man? Jesus said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

do we really believe we have the ALL-TIME-SUPER Hall pass? that excuses anything without consequence? I definitely don't
When you have been redeemed you have been bought with a price and have been adopted as a son into the family of God. What makes you think that God, who loves His children, is going to let them practice or continue in sin? He won't let sin go on, because He wants to fellowship with His children and He will lovingly chasten and discipline them until they come back and He will restore them to fellowship without putting them on probation. They don't need to be saved again, just restored back into fellowship that sin had broken.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
yes I understand it, but there are lots of warnings in the bible about staying on the path so I think that realization may help keep some of Christs followers clinging to Him for safety, again Yes I believe God knows that in advance yes that He would only save those who would end up being saved, but again He warns us for a reason. Thats all I'm sayin. God bless you both.

Yes he does warn us, for many reasons. One thing he does not warn us about is being fearful of losing salvation. We are not under bondage, but we are adopted as sons.


Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

For those who think we can lose salvation, they have to live in fear of not doing enough good, or not doing enough bad to become unqualified. Even if you do not agree, if you say you do not live in fear, you are fooling yourself.

For those of us who are adopted as sons, We realise we will make mistakes and fall into sin, But we do not have to fear God, but can go to him in humility knowing he has already forgiven us based on his love.

Also, what does paul tell us about guilt? He tells us in col 2 that we are not relieved of guilt by relition and tradition, we are relieved of guilt because Christ took everything that was against us, was contrary to us, and nailed it to the cross. What does he say about those who ARE saved?

3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.


1. If we were raised with Christ (if we were saved)
2. our life is hidden in Christ
3. Christr is sitting at the right hand of God (signifying we have accesws to the father through Christ
4. We WILL appear with Christ in Glory


so why place ourselves back under law? We will not grow in Christ if we put ourselves under law. we will appear righteous outwardly maybe, But we will just be putting on cosmetics to cover our true self, where a true child of god knows his guilt and knows the depth of his deserving of eternal damnation, and ocme to God as his son, and grow in him, not fearing him
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#29
Eternal salvation is promised for all those who remain in Christ. Salvation is being redeemed from sin and is imputed not by works but by grace through faith; it has to be present to secure eternal salvation. Eternal security or salvation is not a license to sin. God has a part to play in keeping us through His power but one can willingly leave Him= no longer redeemed from sin. Everyone has freewill.
1 Peter 2:25
If you leave him and forfeit your salvation, what does God do with your sin that He put away through His blood? Does He impute that sin back to you because you willingly left Him and forfeited your salvation? He cleansed and justified you with His blood by faith the moment you believed, are you no longer justified by His blood and are all those sins you were justified from get put back on your account? The Spirit we received at salvation, who indwells us, is the Spirit so grieved and quenched that he leaves us? If the Spirit, who we have been sealed by when we believed, leaves us than what good is the promise of God in (Heb 13:5) that says...

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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#30
the narrow path.. Few find it (the christians) and even fewer walk it.. listen there is nothing to fear if we dawn the armor of God, but what is the armor for but to protect us from the powers of evil. If ya'll don't want to believe this is dangerous business that's up to you. I'm not scared of losing salvation but I know there is work to be done here. I don't just think about my being saved, its about pleasing God who called me, loves me, saves me and blesses me. Its a relationship. But for the others walking around in this world unsure of what to think about God's grace I think it is important that they realize it takes more than lip service, you have to listen to God, form that bond and follow what He says, you can't just believe Him, confess Him as your Savior and not make Him the master of your life. It goes hand in hand. The pharisees said God is our father, and Jesus said if He were your father you would do as He instructed you, but you are the children of Satan because they loved that which was not of God ( I may have gotten that a little wrong literary wise because I'm not taking the time to look it up. God bless ya'll I'm not taking anything away from the blood of Christ, but it seems some people are taking away from the cross of Christ. "if you wish to follow me, take up your crosses daily."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#31
the narrow path.. Few find it (the christians) and even fewer walk it.. listen there is nothing to fear if we dawn the armor of God, but what is the armor for but to protect us from the powers of evil. If ya'll don't want to believe this is dangerous business that's up to you. I'm not scared of losing salvation but I know there is work to be done here. I don't just think about my being saved, its about pleasing God who called me, loves me, saves me and blesses me. Its a relationship. But for the others walking around in this world unsure of what to think about God's grace I think it is important that they realize it takes more than lip service, you have to listen to God, form that bond and follow what He says, you can't just believe Him, confess Him as your Savior and not make Him the master of your life. It goes hand in hand. The pharisees said God is our father, and Jesus said if He were your father you would do as He instructed you, but you are the children of Satan because they loved that which was not of God ( I may have gotten that a little wrong literary wise because I'm not taking the time to look it up. God bless ya'll I'm not taking anything away from the blood of Christ, but it seems some people are taking away from the cross of Christ. "if you wish to follow me, take up your crosses daily."
Yes narrow is the way, That is why so FEW people believe in a salvation based on fqaith alone in the work of Chross. And so many believe we can somehow earn it by doing whatever it is they think they have to do to get it and keep it. Every religion in the world but true christianity places salvation based on works. If you live up to this standard, you will be saved, if you fall away, you will lose your salvation.

I do not have to look to God as my master, he is my father, thus I WANT to obey him, why? His rules are not a list to get me out of jail, they are his instructions on how to have a better life. God made me, He knows how I work, He knows what will damage me, His commands are for MY benefit, not his. Why would I not want to follow him.

If you want to try to earn salvation, feel free. many have come before you doing that and have failed, many will come after you and will fail.

Face it, If you want to be good enough to earn salvation. Here is the only way, 100 % adherance to the law. If you have not done that, you will NEVER IN THIS LIFETIME be good enough to earn salvation. Only those who realise this understand grace. And they SHOW it by showing a changed life. Those who do not understand this will show no changed life, live habitual sin, Or contrinue to try to strive to be good enough to earn Gods love, when they can never earn it.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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#32
eternally_grateful in my whole life I've never claimed I could earn salvation through law. You just said it. He is your Father so you want to obey. If you didn't want to I guess He wasn't really your Father, hence you will be known by your fruits. Maybe we should word it another way. "If you don't find yourself following how God leads you, You may have never been saved."

I must say I find it interesting that if I don't agree with exactly what someone says I am instantly categorized in another extreme view. I say you can choose to not accept Gods salvation and even choose not to dwell in the safety of Gods armor and you say "if you want to live by the law and earn your own salvation."... ummm what?

I've got to go for now though, so I'll respond when I can 18 hours or less :)
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#33
His law is His commandments. Psalm 119:165-166.
Sure. And all these commandments are found in the five books of Moses. Every single jot and tittle of them. What I am wondering about is if you take the saying in Jam.2:10 at face value (which is how his jewish listerners understood it) or if you spiritualize it to mean something else than it says.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#34
Sure. And all these commandments are found in the five books of Moses. Every single jot and tittle of them. What I am wondering about is if you take the saying in Jam.2:10 at face value (which is how his jewish listerners understood it) or if you spiritualize it to mean something else than it says.
Why is a problem that I mentioned James 2:10?
The verse simply shows that all sins are equal before God. Keeping the law in the New Testament dispensation is to love the Lord with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. That sums it up. If you love God with all your heart, you won't disobey any of His commandments but if you do disobey one you are guilty as someone who disobeyed all.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#35
We are saved on faith alone without a doubt. However, the way we live our lives says A LOT about our faith (or lack thereof). What we do outwardly reflects what is going on inwardly. If someone continues in a lifestyle of sin then that is a strong indicator that something is wrong with their faith. While it is true that faith alone saves, the faith that saves us is not alone, it is accompanied by obedience. When one decreases, so does the other. When our faith decreases, obedience decreases and vice versa.

I believe when someone slips back into a life dominated by sin one of three things has happened.

1) Their faith has become weak (this has happened to me)

2) They have lost their faith completely

3) They never had true faith in the first place

I believe a person can lose their faith completely and apostatize. I believe they can forfeit their salvation.

There are too many verses in the Bible that warns us to remain in the faith and endure to the end for me to think true apostasy isn't possible.
 
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A-Omega

Guest
#36
The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
 
A

A-Omega

Guest
#37
We are saved on faith alone without a doubt. However, the way we live our lives says A LOT about our faith (or lack thereof). What we do outwardly reflects what is going on inwardly. If someone continues in a lifestyle of sin then that is a strong indicator that something is wrong with their faith. While it is true that faith alone saves, the faith that saves us is not alone, it is accompanied by obedience.

How much obedience? What is our sin threshold for saving faith? What should our sin/obedience ratio be to satisfy that we have saving faith as proven through our actions?

If you are going to make such a serious proclamation you have to back it up with proper guidelines.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#38
How much obedience? What is our sin threshold for saving faith? What should our sin/obedience ratio be to satisfy that we have saving faith as proven through our actions?

If you are going to make such a serious proclamation you have to back it up with proper guidelines.
I'm not the one making such a serious proclamation. The word of God is blunt about it.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I guess the threshold is when you allow sin to dominate your life so much that it hardens your heart to the point that your faith completely dies. Sin kills the fruit which is your works, and then it begins to kill the tree which is your faith, and once your faith dies, how can you be saved by it?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 
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Matt777

Guest
#39
Perseverance is necessary for final salvation, yet all true saints will persevere because we are kept by the power of God. This is the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints which is, in my view, the best way to accommodate the variety of verses found on this topic. There are numerous scriptures making the point that salvation is eternal, that Jesus will not lose even a single one of his sheep, that his sheep will never perish, that we are kept by the power of God, etc.

However the bible is also full of warning about not falling away. I think these are here because, within every church, in that era and this one, there are false converts. False converts can be discovered because they fall away. Only the true sheep stay and abide. I think these warning are given to illuminate the need for repentance in those who falsely claim Christ, and to encourage those who are true by means of revealing the enduring nature of their faith.

Here's the problem with the idea that salvation can be lost; it would mean we work for our salvation. If we could lose our salvation, then we are not saved at the moment we repent and believe, we are saved if we make it to the end. Therefore we have to work our tails off and hopefully make it to the end, and hopefully be righteous enough to be saved. Hence, self-righteousness. If this were true, those who make it could boast, because they held on and kept on in righteousness. If salvation depended on human effort, or holding on in any way, then salvation would be of man and not all of God. This is a serious error.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
- John 6:37-40

Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father, and he will do it. None of his sheep will be lost.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
- John 10:27-28

Again, none of his sheep will perish. I don't think he could have stated it any more plainly.

"who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
- 1 Peter 1:5

What is the nature of this faith?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
- Ephesians 2:8

So we are protected by the power of God through faith, and this faith is itself a gift of God. God gives us an enduring faith, a persevering faith.

But what of those who were 'Christian' but fell away and became, say, atheists? Did they lose their salvation?

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."
- 1 John 2:19

Again, one who is truly in Christ endures, abides, and perseveres.

Now lets step back and take a big-picture look at the whole drama of salvation.

"and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
- Romans 8:30

This is an unbroken chain from predestination, that is being chosen of God in eternity past, to being glorified. No one slips through the cracks; no one is called but not justified, no one is justified but not sanctified, and no one is sanctified but not glorified. All of God's elect will be glorified.

To sum this up, all true saints will persevere in faith until the end and will enter into glory. This does not mean that one can live absolutely any way they like and have no fear of Hell. A child of God will bear fruit and will not walk in darkness. 1 John makes a clear delineation between the true sheep and the false converts. That's why I don't call this doctrine "eternal security" as some do; perseverance of the saints is the biblically accurate name for this truth. We are saved because we have a supernatural, enduring, persevering faith in Christ given by God. All who completely and finally 'fall away' never had this real faith to begin with, and any with a real faith who fall away will come back in repentance.

Salvation is all of grace, from start to finish. No human works, either in earning salvation or keeping it, have anything whatsoever to do with redemption. Christ bore our sins in his own body and died under the wrath of God, as a propitiation for the sins of all who would ever believe in him. To say one of these could lose their salvation would be to say that Christ died for nothing and did not propitiate the wrath of God for this sins of his people. On the cross, Christ cried out "It is Finished!". He was right. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith. No one given to Christ by the Father will be lost.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#40
God’s requirement is that we remain faithful till He comes (no turning away).
Matt 24:45-51
45- Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46- Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47- Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48- But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49- And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50- The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51- And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.