The myth of "head" vs "heart" knowledge

[Crossfire]

Personally, I never once attempted to separate the two nor have I ever heard anyone try to do so. Both the heart and the mind can and do influence one another. However, there are those exalt knowledge to point that they love knowledge more than seeing souls saved. So much so, that in their religious pride and self righteousness, they actually destroy lives instead of reaching out to them.

A perfect historical example of such behavior is how in times past people "loved" their doctrines (knowledge) so much, that they actually began to persecute, torture and murder other professing Christians who rejected their beloved knowledge. Because their beloved doctrine taught them that they were the chosen few and all else were destined for hell, they reasoned that killing such people wasn't committing murder because in their "minds" such people were already predestined for destruction. Such people allowed their doctrine to turn themselves into heartless killing machines who, thinking they were doing God a favor, were actually murdering people instead of evangelizing them.

 

[tribesman]

There are many immature believers who are saved, who love God yet don't have the first idea concerning sound doctrine. While the mind is an important component, the heart is just as important. If it were a simply a matter reason then people wouldn't be deceived. However, it is because the false teachers appeal to their affections for the desires of this world (their heart), that people are and will be lead astray.

You said in post #19 that "I never once attempted to separate the two nor have I ever heard anyone try to do so" yet here you are quiet clear on that they are separate.

You can have it right in your heart, but not in your mind, is not that what you are saying?

About being deceived, yes, it also has to be a matter of the mind, just as much as the heart.

 

[Crossfire]

You can have it right in your heart, but not in your mind, is not that what you are saying?

Not at all. What I'm saying is that it's a very delicate balance where one can easily trip the other up.

 

[tribesman]

A perfect historical example of such behavior is how in times past people "loved" their doctrines (knowledge) so much, that they actually began to persecute, torture and murder other professing Christians who rejected their beloved knowledge. Because their beloved doctrine taught them that they were the chosen few and all else were destined for hell, they reasoned in their own minds that killing such people wasn't committing murder because in their "minds" such people were already predestined for destruction. Such people allowed their doctrine to turn themselves into heartless killing machines who, thinking they were doing God a favor, were actually murdering people instead of evangelizing them.

Well, as you tend to nag about this. Let me say this now once and for all. Yes, I am a reformed christian. But I do not worship Calvin, I do not defend all that happened in Geneva and certainly not the fate of Servetus. I do not know why I should answer for these things and how they are relevant to what we discuss here, or elsewhere.

 

[tribesman]

Not at all. What I'm saying is that it's a very delicate balance where one can easily trip the other up.

And your distinction makes what sense?

Let's get this simple and straight: If a person is deceived in heart his mind is also deceived.

Rom.1

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Crossfire]

And your distinction makes what sense?

Let's get this simple and straight: If a person is deceived in heart his mind is also deceived.

I agree. However, the opposite is also true; if a person is deceived in their mind, his heart is deceived also and the reason people can profess saving faith while murdering others.

 

[tribesman]

I agree. However, the opposite is also true; if a person is deceived in their mind, his heart is deceived also and the reason people can profess saving faith while murdering others.

But there is no distinction to make, thus no exact order and thus no "opposite". Have it which way you want it: mind and heart or heart and mind. They are one in scripture.

People who profess saving faith and yet are committing murder? Who says such people are right either in heart or mind?

 

[Crossfire]

Well, as you tend to nag about this. Let me say this now once and for all. Yes, I am a reformed christian. But I do not worship Calvin, I do not defend all that happened in Geneva and certainly not the fate of Servetus. I do not know why I should answer for these things and how they are relevant to what we discuss here, or elsewhere.

Servetus clearly was not saved however, that was no excuse to have him burned at the stake. No one knows whether or not he would have repented because he was never given an opportunity. However, the murder of Servetus is barely scratching the surface. Thousands upon thousand of authentic Christians have been persecuted, tortured and killed over the centuries because those of the Reformed persuasion became the very thing that they initially stood against: a corrupt religious killing machine no different than the Catholics that they replaced in Europe.

However, it should stated that not all "Calvinists" had given in to such demonic behavior. There are handful of excellent examples of Calvinism gone right; Hudson Taylor, George Whitefield & Andrew Murray to name a few. What made these men different? Calvinism played a minor in their over all personal beliefs. These men were God fearing, bible believing Christians who loved God with all their heart, mind soul & strength AND LOVED PEOPLE more so than there own lives as history shows.

Things go wrong when people begin to exalt their love of doctrine above their love for their fellow man. As I have stated before, you can not possess real truth without love because the gospel truth IS LOVE.

 

[Crossfire]

People who profess saving faith and yet are committing murder? Who says such people are right either in heart or mind?

Not me. But then again, I'm not the one who adheres to a belief system where history proves such corruption was widely embraced.

 

[tribesman]

Servetus clearly was not saved however, that was no excuse to have him burned at the stake. No one knows whether or not he would have repented because he was never given an opportunity. However, the murder of Servetus is barely scratching the surface. Thousands upon thousand of authentic Christians have been persecuted, tortured and killed over the centuries because those of the Reformed persuasion became the very thing that they initially stood against: a corrupt religious killing machine no different than the Catholics that they replaced in Europe.

However, it should stated that not all "Calvinists" had given in to such demonic behavior. There are handful of excellent examples of Calvinism gone right; Hudson Taylor, George Whitefield & Andrew Murray to name a few. What made these men different? Calvinism played a minor in their over all personal beliefs. These men were God fearing, bible believing Christians who loved God with all their heart, mind soul & strength AND LOVED PEOPLE more so than there own lives as history shows.

Things go wrong when people begin to exalt their love of doctrine above their love for their fellow man. As I have stated before, you can not possess real truth without love because the gospel truth IS LOVE.

I agree about Servetus. I am less sure about these figures of "thousands upon thousand" of christians killed by the reformed. There is no reason to oversimplify things. There were many wars taking place during this time. However, these things belongs to a time and a political situation that is far from us today. I am sure mistakes were made. My conviction is that all who did wrong during these times will have to answer for it some way or another one day.

Yes, there are various forms of calvinism since mid 1600s, I can't say I am a huge fan of them all. George Whitefield I like a lot. Andrew Murray, well, he was a calvinist by name, education and affiliation, his doctrine however was not calvinist (some people call him a "one point calvinist").

I think it is no problem to have love for good doctrine, hey, it is so important and a rare find to that, but of course, it is implied that it is to acted upon in love. But many uses this word "love" very uncarefully and boast about how loving they are, because they feeeel that way, and how unloving others are who are not as loving as them. We should love righteousness and hate iniquity (Heb.1:9). This latter word iniquity also has doctrinal consequences. So, yes, to go out and "do something" is right on. However, we must give people good teaching.

 

[Abiding]

Philippians 1:9-11

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, 10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

 

[Crossfire]

Philippians 1:9-11

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, 10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Again I say, passion (love) for knowledge without compassion (love) for people only leads religious pride and self righteousness. Like it or not, we've seen more than enough of that around these forums to prove it's existence.

 

[Crossfire]

Andrew Murray, well, he was a calvinist by name, education and affiliation, his doctrine however was not calvinist (some people call him a "one point calvinist").

Murray was indeed a Calvinist however, his views do indeed differ from traditional Calvinism. He was a product of the Keswickian Convention. While you may or may not be familiar with them, they are / were basically the Calvinistic branch of the Holiness movement birthed in Great Britain during the 1800s. Murray was educated in Europe before settling in South Africa to become a pastor and a decorated Christian author.

Murray is the only Christian author who has been able to explain, both scripturally and practically, the gospel in such a way that both Monergists and Synergists can actually agree upon. If it were not for the works of Murray, many would have dismissed Calvinism as a type of cult long ago. I certainly would have.

 

[Red33]

You really find out if the knowledge and doctrine you have learned is good sound doctrine and practical when you have counseled 100's of believers and people and had to deal with all kinds of situations and issues. God stretches you and you find out fast just how much of what you have learned is mere head knowledge that can't be applied usefully or good sound doctrine that can be applied through the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit is not going to counsel someone using head knowledge that is not of Him or words that do not reveal Christ in a situation. In order for this to happen we have to get out in the middle of the road and start walking the beat so that God can use us and take all that head knowledge and turn it into experiential knowledge as wisdom from above. We have to get our feet wet, we have to plow up the fallow ground, we have to go through the wilderness experience, we have to be tempted and go through trial so that God can work the word into our hearts and into our experience as we walk by faith trusting and abiding in Christ so that we can be meet for the master's use (2Tim 2;21).

 

[RedTent]

It seems to me this whole concept can be simple if we understand that there is duality in spirituality. That is a concept that can’t be captured with one scripture, but with listening to God in all of His words.

God taught the Hebrews using the head, or what they did, to teach the spirit. In ancient times that kind of worked because even their language didn’t separate the heart and the head. In their language, if they brought gifts it included loving. When Paul learned that the Jews said gentiles had to obey how God trained the Hebrews, you can read God’s reaction in Galatians.

I think what we do with our heads in the physical world reflects the spiritual world of the heart. If we lie, the spiritual side of this is not living with the truth. God’s spiritual law of “and the two shall become one” has a profound spiritual side as God talks to us about “whore” and what it means. When we don’t understand this dualism it leads into sin.

My conclusion has been that God wants both head and heart; it is not as separate as some think. When the Pharisees used only head knowledge, God said that was wrong. When the Gnostics said that only spiritual knowledge was right, God said no, that is wrong.

 

[jimmydiggs]

many would have dismissed Calvinism as a type of cult long ago. I certainly would have.

From your posts, it is obvious you already have.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Not me. But then again, I'm not the one who adheres to a belief system where history proves such corruption was widely embraced.

Well, actually... you claim to be a Christian. Not exactly a group of "perfect people" if ya know what I mean.

The self-righteous are over in that booth over there..

 

[jkalyna]

ALL I KNOW IS THAT I WISH I WOULD OF LISTENED TO MY HEART FIRST, OVER MY HEAD.

 

[jkalyna]

MY EXAMPLE OF HEAD {MIND} HEART SEEMS TO BE THE SAME. SCRIPTURE SAYS, HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST, THEN WHAT IS HEART? IT SAY'S ,{ AS A MAN THINKETH IN HIS HEART SO HE IS.}

 

[Crossfire]

Well, actually... you claim to be a Christian. Not exactly a group of "perfect people" if ya know what I mean.

The self-righteous are over in that booth over there..

If there's one thing about self righteousness that I do find humorous is that it takes a self righteous person to identify another. The sad part is that the person doing the finger pointing usually has no idea that they are every bit as guilty of self righteousness as the person they are pointing the finger at.

Welcome to family bro!