Abortion: again

[TheGrungeDiva]

We had a lively debate on the topic of porn, and it made me think of this other oft-debated topic.

I do not know anyone who thinks abortion is a "good" thing. I have heard stories about countries where abortion is used basically as a means of population control, and if those stories are true, it's horrible.

Within the western world, however, I have never met anyone who thinks abortion is good. I know plenty of women who have had abortions, and they would all say it's a tragic choice. Some regret it, some don't, some would do it again if the situation were the same, some would not. But they all agree it's bad.

I think about women who have gotten abortions for reasons other than medical necessity. In almost all the cases, the woman was not thrilled about her choices, but felt that that was her only viable "option." Whether it was because she couldn't afford to lose her job (and many employers still don't have maternity leave), or didn't have the money to take care of herself in such a way that would allow for a healthy baby to be born, or whatever ... abortion seemed like the only choice. Making abortion illegal is not going to help the situation for women in these situations. It's going to make it worse for them, and, ultimately, worse for their children who will be born under-nourished, or worse.

It seems to me that if we want to live in a world where the only abortions that occur are those that are medically necessary (and those will always have to remain legal, I hope everyone here agrees with me there), is to make sure that there are other viable choices for women in these situations.

I don't agree with everything that the Roman Catholic Church says and does, but I really like how they deal with this issue. You rarely see a Catholic protesting at a Planned Parenthood. Instead, they have set up institutions to help unwed mothers deal with those 9 months. They offer free pre-natal care, to ensure that the baby is healthy. They offer education to the woman, so that after the baby is born, she has skills to provide for herself, and possibly also the baby if she decides to keep it. If she wants to give it up for adoption, they help with this process, too. It seems to me that this goes so much further in preventing abortions than standing on a corner yelling at someone who's just there for a pap-smear.

What other ways do you think we could find that would help women not think they have to make that decision, so that, rather than making abortion illegal, we get to the point where we don't have to, because all women are smart enough not to choose it at all (again, except for medical necessity).

 

[Elizabeth619]

I have to agree the Catholic Church is on the right path from my point of view. There should be organizations like that. The ones we currently have now or obviously not enough.

Being as I am an unwed mother I do know the fear that goes through a woman's mind when she is unexpectedly pregnant. I never once considered abortion, but the father wanted me to have one. I was fortunate enough to have a very supportive family that helped me any way they could, but I know that many are not so lucky.

I personally think that ALL churches should have some type of outreach program. This does not mean a church is condoning fornication or whatever you want to call it. They would be helping a woman with child. A baby is precious no matter how it is concieved, and if more peope in the religious community would lend a helping hand instead of avoiding unwed mothers like the plague there might even be less abortions. Just from what I have seen in the area where I live a lot of abortions happen out of fear. Girls don't want to be looked down on. When I announced to Christians that I knew my whole life that I was pregnant some were very loving. Others looked at me like I commited an unforgivable sin. That right there hurt more than anything.

I think I got off track... sorry.

 

[1still_waters]

I'm moving this. This is a news forum. I don't see a news story attached.

 

[OFM]

no abortion is ever medically nessasary.

 

[dragon42531]

no abortion is ever medically nessasary.

Facts to back up that claim?

 

[Elizabeth619]

no abortion is ever medically nessasary.

I am extremely pro-life, and I disagree with this statement.
A tubal pregnancy(ectopic pregnancy) can threaten the life of the mother. Usually the embryo does not survive, and in very rare cases has a woman carried a pregnancy like this to full term, but the risk is so high many times the pregnancy is terminated. The mother dying is far more likely than actually giving birth to a live, viable baby.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Being as I am an unwed mother I do know the fear that goes through a woman's mind when she is unexpectedly pregnant.

Thank you for sharing your own story. It takes so much strength to go through something like that. And I so agree with you on everything you said there. It's sad when Christians think being a Christian gives them the right to look down their noses at someone. Loving someone doesn't mean you condone their past sin. We all sin, we are all forgiven.

I think I got off track... sorry.

Not at all! That's exactly what this thread is about.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

no abortion is ever medically nessasary.

You are completely incorrect.

About 4-5 years ago, my husband and I decided to try to have a baby. I was 39, so it was basically "now or never." We looked forward to "trying" (grin) and decided to see what God had in plan for us. Our plan was to try naturally for about a year, and then look at options like fertility or other options.

A few months before our 1-year trial was up, I tested positive. I was so thrilled. I made an appointment, to see how it was progressing.

The morning of the appointment, I woke up at about 4 AM with really bad cramps. To make a long story short, I ended up in the hospital: the pregnancy was ectopic.

For OFM, and anyone else who doesn't know, an ectopic pregnancy has absolutely ZERO possibility of ever surviving past a few weeks in the zygote stage. What's more, if it is not removed, the mother will absolutely, 100% certainty, die a horrific and painful death as her organs are ripped apart.

Now, you try to tell me that that abortion was not "medically necessary?" You'd better believe I would have done anything -- even sacrificed myself -- if there was ANY way of saving that baby. But it was not to be.

The good news is that it didn't take long after that for hubby and I to get it right. Almost to the day, one year after that incident, my beautiful boy Rowland was born, healthy, mostly normal (there were some minor complications, so it had to be a C-section at the last minute) ... God is good, all the time.

But don't you ever say that an abortion is never medically necessary.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I am extremely pro-life, and I disagree with this statement.
A tubal pregnancy(ectopic pregnancy) can threaten the life of the mother. Usually the embryo does not survive, and in very rare cases has a woman carried a pregnancy like this to full term, but the risk is so high many times the pregnancy is terminated. The mother dying is far more likely than actually giving birth to a live, viable baby.

The woman cannot carry to full term. It's medically impossible. The Fallopian tubes do not have the proper materials to support growing a zygote into an embryo, then a fetus, then a baby. There's no embrionic sac, no umbilical cord, nothing.

It's possible that there have been some cases where a zygote found in this state can be removed and re-planted into a uterus, like the "test-tube baby" procedure. I can't imagine the likelihood of such an operation succeeding would make it at all feasible. I have never heard of that happening, but I will suspend judgment and say it might have. Any doctor trying this would be sued by the insurance company for taking too much time for a procedure that had such a high likelihood of failure, and/or by the family for putting the mother's life in jeopardy, but sure, let's pretend it's possible.

Most of the time, such pregnancies flush themselves. But if they don't, the mother will absolutely die if the fertilized egg is allowed to grow where it is. Think of the movie "Alien." Nuff said.

 

[Elizabeth619]

The woman cannot carry to full term. It's medically impossible. The Fallopian tubes do not have the proper materials to support growing a zygote into an embryo, then a fetus, then a baby. There's no embrionic sac, no umbilical cord, nothing.

It's possible that there have been some cases where a zygote found in this state can be removed and re-planted into a uterus, like the "test-tube baby" procedure. I can't imagine the likelihood of such an operation succeeding would make it at all feasible. I have never heard of that happening, but I will suspend judgment and say it might have. Any doctor trying this would be sued by the insurance company for taking too much time for a procedure that had such a high likelihood of failure, and/or by the family for putting the mother's life in jeopardy, but sure, let's pretend it's possible.

Most of the time, such pregnancies flush themselves. But if they don't, the mother will absolutely die if the fertilized egg is allowed to grow where it is. Think of the movie "Alien." Nuff said.

I saw on tv once that a woman survived a tubal... but that was on Maury Povich...so prob not reliable lol. I will say this is the only time i do condone abortion, and I hope i never have to go thru something like this. I know a few christian woman who did and eventhough they did the "right" thing it still bothered them bc of their beliefs.

 

[Daniel94]

For OFM, and anyone else who doesn't know, an ectopic pregnancy has absolutely ZERO possibility of ever surviving past a few weeks in the zygote stage. What's more, if it is not removed, the mother will absolutely, 100% certainty, die a horrific and painful death as her organs are ripped apart.

I would like to thank you and Elizabeth for that explanation because I had heard of times where an abortion was medically necessary and I wasn't sure how much I believed that. I had tried looking up times when it was medically necessary, but couldn't find anything. Anyways I think what most Christians have a problem with(I may be wrong, but it is how I personally feel) is the fact of women who want to be able to have an abortion just because they don't want a child.

I think we do need more organizations to help out women and maybe then the numbers would drop of how many abortions are performed. I also see another solution that I won't say because chances of it happening are basically 0%.

Another thing I have a problem with is the fact people claim "Women's Rights" to have an abortion. Not to offend anyone or anything, but that is a load of bull! What about the babies rights? The mother is suppose to speak for both herself and her unborn child. I feel that basically by conception that baby is human life and to have an abortion is basically killing human life. I don't see having an abortion because of rape either. It seems unfair to punish the child for something he/she had no control over.

I would also like to point out that I know my opinion doesn't matter that much on a topic like this because I am a guy and will never know what a woman goes through with pregnancy/labor.

Also, I know what a miscarriage is, but does the procedure the mother goes through fall into the medically necessary abortion category?

 

[Elizabeth619]

I would like to thank you and Elizabeth for that explanation because I had heard of times where an abortion was medically necessary and I wasn't sure how much I believed that. I had tried looking up times when it was medically necessary, but couldn't find anything. Anyways I think what most Christians have a problem with(I may be wrong, but it is how I personally feel) is the fact of women who want to be able to have an abortion just because they don't want a child.

I think we do need more organizations to help out women and maybe then the numbers would drop of how many abortions are performed. I also see another solution that I won't say because chances of it happening are basically 0%.

Another thing I have a problem with is the fact people claim "Women's Rights" to have an abortion. Not to offend anyone or anything, but that is a load of bull! What about the babies rights? The mother is suppose to speak for both herself and her unborn child. I feel that basically by conception that baby is human life and to have an abortion is basically killing human life. I don't see having an abortion because of rape either. It seems unfair to punish the child for something he/she had no control over.

I would also like to point out that I know my opinion doesn't matter that much on a topic like this because I am a guy and will never know what a woman goes through with pregnancy/labor.

Also, I know what a miscarriage is, but does the procedure the mother goes through fall into the medically necessary abortion category?

No it does't. If a woman has a miscarriage(meaning the baby died "naturally') the procedure she goes through is to pretty much remove the fetus that has already passed.

 

[Daniel94]

No it does't. If a woman has a miscarriage(meaning the baby died "naturally') the procedure she goes through is to pretty much remove the fetus that has already passed.

I didn't think it was, but you never know with the crazy world we live in. I was just wondering cause my sister(she was 22 or 23 when it happened I think, I try not to really think or talk about it cause she was heartbroken) had a miscarriage with her first pregnancy and I think I was only 13 when it happened and didn't really understand that much about it at the time. Thank you for answering my question though.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Also, I know what a miscarriage is, but does the procedure the mother goes through fall into the medically necessary abortion category?

No it does't. If a woman has a miscarriage(meaning the baby died "naturally') the procedure she goes through is to pretty much remove the fetus that has already passed.

Technically, an abortion is whenever a fetus is not carried to term. So a woman who has had a miscarriage had a natural abortion, not a medical one. When people say "abortion" today, they usually mean an abortion that is instigated unnaturally, by a doctor in one of several methods doctors have. However, the term "abortion," from a medical standpoint, is applied to miscarriages as well.

In the case of the "natural" abortion (which is just as sad and awful as any abortion, only you can't blame anyone, it's just a tragedy), as Elizabeth says, sometimes a doctor needs to go in and help the woman's body remove the extra matter. I don't know a delicate way of saying it. Usually the woman's body is able to flush itself, but it's very painful, so it's good to be in a hospital so you can receive pain medication and be monitored in case there is additional work to be done.

I also see another solution that I won't say because chances of it happening are basically 0%.

Okay, now you're piqued my curiosity. What solution is that?

I've always wondered if it was possible to remove the zygote or embryo from one woman's uterus and implant it in another woman's uterus. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby, she can have that procedure done instead, and then the baby can live with a couple who is unable to conceive. It would be a higher-risk surgery for the woman, but MUCH lower risk for the baby. (Since currently babies who survive abortions are pretty close to 0%.) I don't know if it's medically impossible right now, and that's why no one is doing it, or if the costs are so prohibitive, or if the pro-abortion-rights lobby sees that as a threat (as long as it was the pregnant woman's choice to have that procedure done, it would not be a threat ... talk about your pro-choice!)

 

[rainacorn]

Prevention.

I see no reason why in 2012 a woman should ever become pregnant unless she wants to. It is unfortunate that so many bright women become so unbelievably stupid and selfish when it comes to sex and don't realize the massive repercussions until it's too late.

I have a very hard time feeling sorry for someone who feels like abortion is their only option so they can maintain their selfish lifestyle, especially when it's that same selfishness that got them into that position. The kid did nothing wrong. Grow up and take care of business.


(I stress 'selfish' because I'm not talking about rape.)

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Prevention.

I see no reason why in 2012 a woman should ever become pregnant unless she wants to. It is unfortunate that so many bright women become so unbelievably stupid and selfish when it comes to sex and don't realize the massive repercussions until it's too late.

I have a very hard time feeling sorry for someone who feels like abortion is their only option so they can maintain their selfish lifestyle, especially when it's that same selfishness that got them into that position. The kid did nothing wrong. Grow up and take care of business.


(I stress 'selfish' because I'm not talking about rape.)

I'm assuming, then, that (a) you disagree with the Catholic church that contraceptives are a form of abortion, and (b) you think abortion is okay if the woman is a victim of rape?

 

[rainacorn]

I'm assuming, then, that (a) you disagree with the Catholic church that contraceptives are a form of abortion, and (b) you think abortion is okay if the woman is a victim of rape?

I disagree that contraception is a form of abortion. I would never say that abortion is 'okay.'

I have no interest in really outlawing the practice, though, if that's what you're trying to get at.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I disagree that contraception is a form of abortion. I would never say that abortion is 'okay.'

I have no interest in really outlawing the practice, though, if that's what you're trying to get at.

Well said. You think it should remain legal in cases where the woman was raped.

I take it, then, that you don't consider abortion as murder. Wrong, evil, sinful, yes, but murder, no.

Because murdering a baby just because the baby's mom was raped doesn't make any sense to me.

The only way that makes sense is if you don't believe abortion is murder. Which, btw, is what I believe, too. I think it's the killing of potential life, and horrific, and terrible, and must be stopped, but I don't think it's equivalent to murder. That may seem like semantics to some people, but to me there is a difference.

Which is why I can make exceptions in cases like if the mother is raped, which is also horrific and terrible.

 

[rainacorn]

Well said. You think it should remain legal in cases where the woman was raped.

I take it, then, that you don't consider abortion as murder. Wrong, evil, sinful, yes, but murder, no.

Because murdering a baby just because the baby's mom was raped doesn't make any sense to me.

The only way that makes sense is if you don't believe abortion is murder. Which, btw, is what I believe, too. I think it's the killing of potential life, and horrific, and terrible, and must be stopped, but I don't think it's equivalent to murder. That may seem like semantics to some people, but to me there is a difference.

Which is why I can make exceptions in cases like if the mother is raped, which is also horrific and terrible.

Well I PERSONALLY think it is equivalent to murder, which is why I would never do it or encourage someone to do it. But I understand the distinction you made and that others make it, which is why I don't think it should necessarily be illegal.

If you follow my posts you'll find that I care very little for what is considered legal or illegal in the world. We cannot hide behind the legality or illegality of something when it comes to sin. Legalizing gay marriage will not stop homosexual sex from being a sin. Legalizing abortion will not stop murder from being a sin. Just as making porn and alcohol illegal would not turn the world into Christians. It doesn't work like that.

The world is in bondage. Freedom is not obtained through legislation.

 

[dliz]

Also, I know what a miscarriage is, but does the procedure the mother goes through fall into the medically necessary abortion category?

Abortion means the termination of pregnancy before it reaches it's viable stage(before 20 weeks). It can either be spontaneous or induced abortion.


Spontaneous abortion is due to fetal,placental, or maternal factors.
Types of spontaneous abortion:
*Threatened abortion- where in during first half of pregnancy the mother experiences vaginal spotting
* Inevitable abortion- early leaking of the amniotic fluid and dliation of cervix which would result expulsion of the fetus
*Incomplete abortion- if the mother attempted to abort the fetus by drinking an abortive medication, sometimes the fetal or placental parts are not completely expelled which would result to severe bleeding. So the mother should need to undergo a minor surgery(d & c) to have it removed.
*Complete abortion- self-explanatory
*Missed abortion- the baby dies but your body keeps the pregnancy.
* Habitual abortion- there is a continous loss of 3 or more consecutive pregnancies.
*Septic Abortion- this is associated with an infection in the mother's uterus. This is usually results from an illegal abortion

Therapeutic Abortion means this is to preserve the mother's mental and physical health in case of rape, unplanned, or medical conditions.