Who are you voting for?

[TheGrungeDiva]

So does the LOT of good things they do justify them promoting and carrying out abortions???

They do not "promote" abortions. In fact, many planned parenthood clinics do not even offer abortions.

If a patient comes to a PP clinic with an unwanted pregnancy, they list out all of her options, and give her a list of organizations that will help her with whichever option she chooses. If the staff is really interested in the welfare of the mother and the child (and I know it's shocking, but some medical personnel really don't care about the money, but are there to help people) they will advise the woman in what is best for her and her baby, and that is almost never an abortion. If they are less altruistic, they might be less ... how should I say ... directive in leading the woman away from the abortion option, they would be more objective, and simply say, "okay, here are the options, pick one," not trying to be particularly pushy towards one or another. See, even if they were just in it for the money, they'd try to steer the woman away from abortion, because that's a more expensive option for PP than adoption or helping the woman go through with the pregnancy. If they help the woman go through with the pregnancy, they can get government support for the pre-natal care. If she chooses adoption, they get paid to be the "middle man" in a match-up. But if she chooses abortion, they get nada. It's either out of their pocket, or best-case scenario they refer her to a clinic that will perform the deed. Government doesn't reimburse for that.

So this idea that PP somehow encourages women to get abortions, that if PP went away, women would magically stop getting abortions, is absolutely absurd. If anything, every time a PP has to shut its doors due to lack of funding, that INcreases the risk to unborn babies, because that means there's that many more low-income women who don't have access to services that help them through the pregnancy with regular check-ups, pre-natal care, and counseling.

Seriously, if those anti-PP fundies were really against abortion, and not just against women having the power to make a choice, even if it's the wrong choice, they would support PP.

That's like saying a serial killer is a good guy because he gives alot to charity.

Well, your analogy is flawed, for the reasons I outlined above. I would put PP in the category of Dr. Kavorkian. He has eased the pain of hundreds, maybe thousands of people who were suffering. Some believe he is a "murderer" because he has helped individuals bring an end to their suffering. There are cases where I think euthanasia is warranted, and it's sad that Dr. K. has received death threats from so-called "pro-life" advocates.

THAT is a better analogy.

There are PLENTY of organizations that help low income woman that don't KILL life along with it.

I would not say there are "plenty" of anti-abortion agencies that help low-income women.

I know there are some organizations out there who provide "free pregnancy testing" for women. I went to one, once, when I thought I was pregnant ... this was over 2 decades ago, and I was married, but neither of us had insurance and we were poor, so we couldn't afford to go to a "real" doctor. I had taken a home pregnancy test and it came up negative, but it was over 12 weeks since my last period, so I was concerned. I went to one of these "clinics." I told them up front that I was married and would absolutely keep the baby if I was pregnant, but would need help with the bills and the pre-natal care. Here's how they "helped" me.
They took a urine sample, put it through a home-pregnancy test. While they were waiting for the results, they asked me to watch a video. You know the one. Where they show you a picture of a baby being murdered as if it's an "abortion" of a 12-week fetus but they fake the video so it looks like it's a full-term baby or whatever they do. It was very disturbing. I threw up.

Then they told me I was not pregnant. I asked, "then why haven't I had my period?" They said they couldn't help me, because they were not medical doctors, and could not make any diagnoses. I asked if they knew of any doctors who would offer a free check-up and be able to tell me why I hadn't had my period for 3 months. They did not.

That's when I went to Planned Parenthood, discovered I had an ovarian cyst, and was taken care of.

Why should I vote for a president that supports that?

Let me ask you: why would you donate one penny to an organization that works to tear down organizations like Planned Parenthood, while building up circus side-shows like that "crisis pregnancy center" I went to?

You really have to ask?

 

[Tru2JHWH]

this is the funniest thread I have read thus far! lmbo

 

[hhhlga89]

They do not "promote" abortions. In fact, many planned parenthood clinics do not even offer abortions.

If a patient comes to a PP clinic with an unwanted pregnancy, they list out all of her options, and give her a list of organizations that will help her with whichever option she chooses. If the staff is really interested in the welfare of the mother and the child (and I know it's shocking, but some medical personnel really don't care about the money, but are there to help people) they will advise the woman in what is best for her and her baby, and that is almost never an abortion. If they are less altruistic, they might be less ... how should I say ... directive in leading the woman away from the abortion option, they would be more objective, and simply say, "okay, here are the options, pick one," not trying to be particularly pushy towards one or another. See, even if they were just in it for the money, they'd try to steer the woman away from abortion, because that's a more expensive option for PP than adoption or helping the woman go through with the pregnancy. If they help the woman go through with the pregnancy, they can get government support for the pre-natal care. If she chooses adoption, they get paid to be the "middle man" in a match-up. But if she chooses abortion, they get nada. It's either out of their pocket, or best-case scenario they refer her to a clinic that will perform the deed. Government doesn't reimburse for that.

So this idea that PP somehow encourages women to get abortions, that if PP went away, women would magically stop getting abortions, is absolutely absurd. If anything, every time a PP has to shut its doors due to lack of funding, that INcreases the risk to unborn babies, because that means there's that many more low-income women who don't have access to services that help them through the pregnancy with regular check-ups, pre-natal care, and counseling.

Seriously, if those anti-PP fundies were really against abortion, and not just against women having the power to make a choice, even if it's the wrong choice, they would support PP.


Well, your analogy is flawed, for the reasons I outlined above. I would put PP in the category of Dr. Kavorkian. He has eased the pain of hundreds, maybe thousands of people who were suffering. Some believe he is a "murderer" because he has helped individuals bring an end to their suffering. There are cases where I think euthanasia is warranted, and it's sad that Dr. K. has received death threats from so-called "pro-life" advocates.

THAT is a better analogy.


I would not say there are "plenty" of anti-abortion agencies that help low-income women.

I know there are some organizations out there who provide "free pregnancy testing" for women. I went to one, once, when I thought I was pregnant ... this was over 2 decades ago, and I was married, but neither of us had insurance and we were poor, so we couldn't afford to go to a "real" doctor. I had taken a home pregnancy test and it came up negative, but it was over 12 weeks since my last period, so I was concerned. I went to one of these "clinics." I told them up front that I was married and would absolutely keep the baby if I was pregnant, but would need help with the bills and the pre-natal care. Here's how they "helped" me.
They took a urine sample, put it through a home-pregnancy test. While they were waiting for the results, they asked me to watch a video. You know the one. Where they show you a picture of a baby being murdered as if it's an "abortion" of a 12-week fetus but they fake the video so it looks like it's a full-term baby or whatever they do. It was very disturbing. I threw up.

Then they told me I was not pregnant. I asked, "then why haven't I had my period?" They said they couldn't help me, because they were not medical doctors, and could not make any diagnoses. I asked if they knew of any doctors who would offer a free check-up and be able to tell me why I hadn't had my period for 3 months. They did not.

That's when I went to Planned Parenthood, discovered I had an ovarian cyst, and was taken care of.

Why should I vote for a president that supports that?

Let me ask you: why would you donate one penny to an organization that works to tear down organizations like Planned Parenthood, while building up circus side-shows like that "crisis pregnancy center" I went to?

You really have to ask?

Why write an essay response trying to somehow justify and agency that DOES promote abortion? While putting down of organizations that seek to protect life (just become of some isolated inconvenience you experienced) in defense of an organization that is so destructive?! Do you honestly think you can get true Christians to accept this organization because the other things they do?? How could you?

 

[Nautilus]

I have no issue with planned parenthood. Its called realizing that we arent in a theocracy but rather a democracy.

 

[raf]

DERP OBAMA IS THE MUSLIM ANTI CHRIST WORKING FOR THE ILLUMINATI DONT VOTE FOR HIM HES ALSO A SOCIALIST THATS LIKE 100X WORST THAN THE CCCP!! just kidding but thats how most anti obama people think.

 

[raf]

Oh yeah obama also supports abortion so much he does the abortions himself and eats babies!!! lol

 

[meecha]

So you tell me, meecha. Why do you think women with health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS should not receive help from a non-profit organization?

Grunge ...your silly straw men show me how fundamentally dishonest you are.

You think low-income women with these issues should suffer because ... what, they're less worthy than women who are wealthier and have access to insurance and health care?

and again

Praytell

lol

WHY would people on this forum think that low-income women are somehow unworthy of the help and support that Jesus commanded we give everyone?

and one more time.

I really want to know

you really want to know what? Try to not misrepresent me and then maybe we could have a conversation.

Politically, being liberal means you are concerned about the plight of the poor, the homeless, the orphan and widow, the outcast, the alien. What did Jesus have to say about that?

Politically, being conservative means you are more concerned about the business owner, the wealthy, those who already have power in the society. What did Jesus have to say to those at the top of the political structure?

Even if you're talking politics, I still fail to see how "liberal" is a bad thing.

Go ahead, people, defend your position. Explain to us how Jesus would agree with giving the Scribes and the Pharasees tax breaks while the poor get nothing. Show me Scripture where Jesus said, "Blessed are the Rich, for they have found favor with God, but cursed are the poor, for they don't have anything now and that's the way it should be."

I'm waiting.

this is the post I originally responded to. You put out your challenge and so far you aren't winning the argument. Your statement that being politically conservative equates to being for the powerful is simply wrong. You do not understand conservativism if you really believe that. I can assure you that I am not for the neo cons and the bankers but I am politically conservative/libertarian. Every administration since Nixon and before that too has been for the powerful elites and the bankers ...Democrat and Republican. Free market Capitalism has not existed in the US for over a hundred years. Your statement makes you out to be a better person than me on the basis of your political leanings. I have never claimed that or even thought that about you but you think being liberal makes you morally superior. That is the logic of your statement. As if anyone thinks that Jesus said "!cursed are the poor"!! stop your sophomore posturing Grunge and come out and fight properly.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Grunge ...your silly straw men show me how fundamentally dishonest you are.

This is not a straw man. It is exactly the argument YOU made. Planned Parenthood was mentioned as a place where low-income women could receive health care for problems like cancer. You responded by mocking, indicating that it was obvious why such things would be scorned in this forum. I even provided the context, quoting exactly what you quoted, and exactly what you said.

YOU are the person who made the argument. I'm waiting for the backup. If it's a "strawman" argument, it is YOUR straw man to blow in the wind.

The fact that you refuse to answer and twist it to me shows YOUR dishonesty.

you really want to know what? Try to not misrepresent me and then maybe we could have a conversation.

If you don't like being misrepresented, perhaps you should choose your words more carefully before you click that "post" button. I am simply quoting you and responding. If you don't like the way your words sound when they come back at you, you have only yourself to blame.

I stand by my definitions of politically conservative and liberal. You are confusing "political conservativism" with "social conservatism" and similarly with liberalism.

A social conservative is one who believes in constraint, limits, boundaries. A social liberal is one who pushes the envelope: excess, abundance, allowance ("liberty").

And then there's economic conservatism and liberalism. That follows the social definitions: an economic conservative would be in favor of cutting spending, limiting government programs. An economic liberal would want to see more government spending and programs.

If I did not make this distinction clear in my earlier post, I do apologize. I don't remember the context now, but if I didn't say specifically that these were the definitions of the words in a political context as opposed to their social or economic context, then that is an error on my part, and I am sorry. (I do see in this quote I say "politically," but that would not be enough to explain it, I admit.)

The reason I make that distinction is because people often say "A Christian can't be liberal." I point out that, while the social conservatism certainly reflects Jesus' teachings, so does political liberalism. As for economics, he said, "Give unto Caesar," which I take to mean neither party is particularly Christian.

Whether you choose to respond to me in a mature manner or like a child is entirely your choice.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Why write an essay response trying to somehow justify and agency that DOES promote abortion?

Well, I wrote the essay to try to correct a misunderstanding in the Christian Community. Planned Parenthood does NOT promote abortion. The fact that you still don't get it reveals that you are quite dim, since the practical reasons alone were enough to indicate PP's reasons NOT to promote abortion. Your insistence in believing a lie and rejecting the truth speak volumes.

While putting down of organizations that seek to protect life (just become of some isolated inconvenience you experienced) in defense of an organization that is so destructive?!

Being subjected to violence so raw it made me literally puke, and then not given any help in a life-threatening situation is not what I would call "isolated inconvenience."

That is the way these agencies operate. They are not staffed with doctors, they are staffed with volunteers. Since they do not have doctors, they cannot provide any health care. All they can do is give you a home pregnancy test, and tell you not to murder your baby. Since I had already done the HPT, and I already knew I was not going to get an abortion, that was completely useless to me.

If PP was not there, the cyst would have killed me. How "pro-life" is that?

PP saved my life. How is that destructive?

Do you honestly think you can get true Christians to accept this organization because the other things they do?? How could you?

Because I am betting most Christians are intelligent and not easily brain-washed into believing the lies that you have obviously been spoon fed into believing.

If I have over-estimated you or others, I will not apologize for that. Nor will I apologize for telling the truth.

 

[meecha]

This is not a straw man. It is exactly the argument YOU made. Planned Parenthood was mentioned as a place where low-income women could receive health care for problems like cancer. You responded by mocking, indicating that it was obvious why such things would be scorned in this forum. I even provided the context, quoting exactly what you quoted, and exactly what you said.

YOU are the person who made the argument. I'm waiting for the backup. If it's a "strawman" argument, it is YOUR straw man to blow in the wind.

The fact that you refuse to answer and twist it to me shows YOUR dishonesty.

I didn't even make an argument about planned parenthood. In response to q/zen I asked HIM why he thought people on a Christian forum might have a problem with Planned Parenthood. Where was the argument?

YOU responded thus

So you tell me, meecha. Why do you think women with health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS should not receive help from a non-profit organization?

The straw man is...Meecha does not think women with health issues like cervical cancer should recieve help from a non profit organisation .....making me out to be a nasty uncompassionate conservative....when in fact....I am quite happy with women with aids and cervical cancer recieving help from non profit organisations provided those organisations do not recieve tax funded government grants. Furthermore Grunge as you know quite well ....my oppositiion to Planned Parenthood would be re it's radical and vocal Pro Choice policies...not helping women with cervical cancer. But you already know this Grunge ....hence your dishonesty.

You think low-income women with these issues should suffer because ... what, they're less worthy than women who are wealthier and have access to insurance and health care?

Straw Man=I don't support PP therefore I think that low income women should suffer because they are less worthy than wealthier women
.
Actual answer=No I don't think that low income women are less worthy but part of being poor is not being able to get some things that rich people have. I can't afford a house so I have to rent one because I am too poor to buy one without taking out huge debt. Fact of life. Thou shalt not covet. If going without is "suffering" you might have a point but going without something because you can not afford it is not suffering.

WHY would people on this forum think that low-income women are somehow unworthy of the help and support that Jesus commanded we give everyone?

Straw Man 1 = Meecha thinks that low income women are unworthy of help and support.

Actual answer= Low income women are not entitled to tax funded help..ie someone else's money ,on the basis of their low income...besides most of that money actually goes to the bureacrats who run the tax funded system, at the expense of the rest of society.

Straw Man 2= Jesus commanded we give everyone tax funded government aid.

Response= No He didn't ...James states that true religion is to look after widows and orphans in their distress. The command is to believers. The command is not to the Civil authorities. Jesus likewise issues His commands to believers.

Furthermore the issue that I have with PP is their proud support of abortion

According to the national Vital Statistics data, over 20 million Black American babies have been aborted since Roe v. Wade. {5} For example, 60% of Black pregnancies end in abortion in New York according to the vital statistics record. This is not surprising because by design 78% of Planned Parenthood clinics are strategically located in communities of color.

Black Pro-life Coalition Demands a Criminal Investigation of Planned Parenthood

and that is the issue that all Bible believing Christians have. Since the forum is called Christian Chat it follows that the Christians will object to the Wests genocide of babies.

 

[meecha]

Planned Parenthood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the wiki article is not disputed. The article is self explanatary. PP is the biggest provider of abortion in the US.

Well, I wrote the essay to try to correct a misunderstanding in the Christian Community. Planned Parenthood does NOT promote abortion. The fact that you still don't get it reveals that you are quite dim, since the practical reasons alone were enough to indicate PP's reasons NOT to promote abortion. Your insistence in believing a lie and rejecting the truth speak volumes.

Planned Parenthood is the leading provider. How canyou say it does not promote abortion?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Planned Parenthood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the wiki article is not disputed. The article is self explanatary. PP is the biggest provider of abortion in the US.

Did you happen to notice, in that very article you linked, what % of the total services they offer was abortions? Just in case you missed that, of the millions of dollars of medical services they provide, LESS THAN 3% of their total services are abortions. That means they spend 97% of the time providing health care, cancer screenings, physicals, etc. Only 35% of their services even have anything to do with contraceptive services. And only 3% is abortions.

I realize that means not all of the abortions are medically necessary -- that would be less than 1%. And yes, I would rather see that number be closer to 0%. I would love to live in a society where no woman felt she had to get an abortion (except for those cases of medical necessity). It is sad that so many women feel they have no other choice, and I know there are a handful of organizations out there who are working hard to provide women with more options, so they don't have to make that tragic decision.

An organization that offers women actual options, and not just a cup to pee in and a lecture, gets my support. Sadly, those are few and far between. The need is great and the supply is small.

Until every woman is in a situation where she doesn't have to make that tragic decision, I am glad there are places like PP who will steer a woman in the right direction, but will also allow her to make the wrong choice if that is what she is going to do.

Now, let's go back to your statistic. Planned Parenthood provides more abortions than any other single hospital or clinic. Hmmm. As far as I know, they are the only national women's clinic. There are hospitals and clinics all over the US who also provide abortions: in all but a few cases, they are stand-alone clinics, sometimes networks of a few hospitals, but nothing on the national scale. If you were to take the total number of abortions performed at each individual PP, and compare it to those performed at each other individual hospital, clinic, or other agency, no individual PP clinic wouldn't even come close to being the #1 provider. That's like saying McDonald's must be the best burger, because they sell more than anyone else. They just have more stores.

A better analogy: The #1 religion represented among US prisoners is Christianity. Wow, that must mean Christianity is a really violent religion, huh? Of course, I don't believe that. I am bringing that up to show how silly your extrapolation is.

Planned Parenthood is the leading provider. How canyou say it does not promote abortion?

Easy. Because "promote" and "provide" are not synonyms.

Promote: to advance in rank, dignity, or position
Provide: to make available

Churches are one of the most common places where addicts can go to get help. (I don't know if they are "the #1 provider" of services for alcoholics and drug addicts -- but I know they do provide a lot of services.) Does that mean churches promote drug and alcohol use? Of course not. Because, as I said "provide" and "promote" are not synonyms.

Now, if you have evidence that suggests that PPs actually encourage women to get abortions, that they steer women in that direction as opposed to other options, then you should present that evidence. The wiki-article you linked does not support that idea. (And if you find anything that does say that, it should have reputable footnotes, not hearsay or slanted views.)

I presented the evidence I have to the contrary: my own personal experience.

I also presented logical data as to why it makes no fiscal or logical sense for PP to promote abortion. Sure, they offer it, but it's a money-loser, and they know it. The only reason to "promote" it would be if they got reimbursed more for that procedure than other procedures. The truth is, while some health plans do cover elective abortions, not all do, and women with health insurance represent a small portion of PP clients anyway.

So far you have shown absolutely nothing to support your side. Nothing but lies and twisting.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I didn't even make an argument about planned parenthood. In response to q/zen I asked HIM why he thought people on a Christian forum might have a problem with Planned Parenthood.

Oh, really? Let's go back, shall we? THIS is how you responded to quakerzen:

why might that be an unpopular position for people on this forum I wonder?

You were snide, sarcastic and insulting. I simply responded in kind. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

You made an assumption that planned parenthood is evil, just because you've been taught / brainwashed that all they do is abortions. So you made this snide comment, saying that of course any good Christian is going to hate PP.

So, I pointed out all the good things PP does. Through a literary style known as "satire," I asked why you would have a problem with helping the poor.

Now, see, having someone snark at you doesn't feel so good, does it? Perhaps you should consider that the next time you think of responding with a snarky comment.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

The straw man is...Meecha does not think women with health issues like cervical cancer should recieve help from a non profit organisation .....making me out to be a nasty uncompassionate conservative....when in fact....I am quite happy with women with aids and cervical cancer recieving help from non profit organisations provided those organisations do not recieve tax funded government grants.

Then you shouldn't hate PP so. Any clinic that provides abortions does not receive one red cent of government money. That includes PP.

But you didn't know that, did you? You probably didn't get that far in reading the wiki-article you linked. And I know those brain-washers would never have given you complete information like that.

 

[chasten]

Dude this whole argument is stupid. The thing that started this whole thing was a misunderstanding. Bcause grunge chick didnt understand what you said and threw a fit, and now this thread is like 6 pages of just you two. Honestly.I think its pretty safe to say who has won the argument here... the entire way through. Personal opinions aside. So your obviously very intelligent. Just let it go....

 

[quakerzen]

So...

Obama/Biden 2012.

 

[meecha]

Dude this whole argument is stupid. The thing that started this whole thing was a misunderstanding. Bcause grunge chick didnt understand what you said and threw a fit, and now this thread is like 6 pages of just you two. Honestly.I think its pretty safe to say who has won the argument here... the entire way through. Personal opinions aside. So your obviously very intelligent. Just let it go....

Chasten ....I am truly chastened....and stop looking at me like that

also.......

nice to see that 38% want nothing to do with either of these charletons

 

[longman]

Hi will say Romney

 

[Bookends]

Hmmm, I'm still working this out. Both men appear to the antichrists lol. But is it right legislate morality from the top down? God puts government into place for His good will.

So if President Obama wins, nothing will get done because of the congress and vice versa. The country will continue to slip into the nanny state and perhaps hit a brick wall and crash. Which might be a good thing, it might wake some people up to following the Lord, trusting in Him, separate out the spurious believers.

If Romney wins, maybe he'll want to build the Mormon temple in Missouri and pray for Christ to come and dwell in it and start the 1000 yr reign that so many Christians believe in. Then all you Catholic bashes may have to change your tune a bit of who's the beast or harlot. He may even want to start another war in the middle east so that a nuke will destroy the Dome of the Rock so that Israel can finally build their temple. And maybe Romney may want to sit in it too, then you scream prophecy fulfilled.... Scarey, isn't it.

 

[quakerzen]

Hmmm, I'm still working this out. Both men appear to the antichrists lol. But is it right legislate morality from the top down? God puts government into place for His good will.

So if President Obama wins, nothing will get done because of the congress and vice versa. The country will continue to slip into the nanny state and perhaps hit a brick wall and crash. Which might be a good thing, it might wake some people up to following the Lord, trusting in Him, separate out the spurious believers.

If Romney wins, maybe he'll want to build the Mormon temple in Missouri and pray for Christ to come and dwell in it and start the 1000 yr reign that so many Christians believe in. Then all you Catholic bashes may have to change your tune a bit of who's the beast or harlot. He may even want to start another war in the middle east so that a nuke will destroy the Dome of the Rock so that Israel can finally build their temple. And maybe Romney may want to sit in it too, then you scream prophecy fulfilled.... Scarey, isn't it.

So basically you're saying crazy begets crazy. I can dig it.