Two Wintnesses 2+2=2?

[doulos]

Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth

Let’s start by recognizing that God’s inspired Word is using figurative or symbolic language to describe the two witnesses. Clearly literal candlesticks and olive trees aren’t the witnesses so using the literal definitions for these terms will lead us into error. We must also consider that two plus two equal four so is it possible that one set of two is an identifier that identifies the other set of two? So let’s use sound hermeneutic principles and see if we can figure out who/what the two witnesses are. One of the rules of hermeneutics when it comes to Scripture is the rule of Scriptural adjacency. That Rule states: When you readsomething you don't understand, first study the surrounding text,then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate theverse to the whole Bible.

Rom11 tells us that the olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them. Rev1:20 tells us seven candlesticks are seven churches, so two candlesticks would be two churches.

If candlesticks are churches then which two churches are they? The olive trees hold the answer, olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst the Jews. So in this case the two olive trees plus the two candlesticks equal the Jewish and the Christian churches.

I know this won’t fit what most people have been taught but if we allow Scripture to define itself when dealing with figurative (or symbolic) language quite often the message becomes clear.

Remember John1:1 tells us the Word was God. Mal3:6 and Heb13:8 tells us that God/Christ does not change. So if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be candlesticks in Rev11 unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rev1 and Rev11. The same principle applies to the olive trees. If the olive trees in Romans are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them then olive trees in Rev will still be Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rom11 and Rev11.

 

[clarkthompson]

i like what you have to say I never thought of it htat way before but I did having thinling God would send people out of heaven to preach to people who don't respect who they were

 

[WolfInOxHide]

The menorah, which itself has "seven" lights, represents the concept of revelation. 7 meaning complete.
We are told that we (the church) are the light of the world, we are (supposed to be) the "Revelation of Y'Shua", if we are servants, rather than just "believers."
Servants are the completed (7) church, completed (7) messenger, the completed (7) menorahs.
He walks among the church and holds it's messengers in His right hand.
The two witnesses to Y'Shua, and to His completed church, are pretty deep ideas, encapsulated in the law and the prophets, represented by Moses and Elijah.

This idea does not contradict OP post, if you dwell spiritually on it.

Certain disciples were chosen to go up on the mount and see Y'Shua for what He really is. There they saw Him witnessed. Not all disciples were given this insight directly, most were only told after the resurrection.
This transfiguration can still be revealed to us in the book of revelation, if we go beyond belief and follow Him as a servant.
There's something about His name, that most still do not understand because they do not love their enemies. His name means "Ya will save"
If we are commanded to pray for and love our enemies, will the Father not therefore save His enemies?
If not, we were commanded to love them in vain, and thus take His name (salvation) in vain.
This is the transfigured aspect of Him that we cannot see because we believe but do not walk the path of repentance, love and forgiveness. This is His witness.

These two have come, but have not yet been seen. Remember, there is a cloud which obscures.

Moses: "Let my people go"
Elijah: "How long will you be double minded"
Y'Shua: "If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto myself"
Earth is misunderstanding
Heaven is understanding
We are invited to repent so that we may enter that kingdom.

What we bind on earth is bound in heaven, therefore as a servant, when we pray the most epic request ever, it is secured by the Father. When we forgive with the most epic forgiveness, it is forgiven by the Father. Both happened before we learned the prayer.

That prayer is: "Daddy, can you not save everyone, please?"
If we really love everyone and forgive everything, we will believe it and utter it.
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

This is the code to unlock the bonus level. Have fun. Make sure you have all the pieces of the armor before you enter it. The minions will try and hold you back as you work your way to the hidden boss, self.

Antipas (opponent of all) must be slain beside you.

Peace.

 

[kenisyes]

Wolfinoxhide, I would question only the Hebrew word you are thinking of when you say "understanding" (because of its closeness to the Greek concept of gnosis), but to extend the concept of the witnesses you describe, if the witnesses are already present but difficult to see, then what are the 1260 specific days they will (or did already) prophesy?

General comment: my wife used to joke that they were two of our friends who will be resurrected specifically to assume their roles.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

kenisyes,
Do you mean "shamayim"? "sky" or "heights" which inherently implies something that we strive for but cannot reach with our own power. A concept that explains itself further when we notice that all green things reach for it, "birds" are a little closer than others and rarely come to the "earth", the sun, moon, and stars are there, etc. It also has a "hidden" aspect to it when we consider clouds.
I don't mean to imply any kind of gnosticism or man's understanding, but rather what is revealed by the Father based on the condition of the heart, not solely on the effort of study or contemplation.

I believe it's possible that the two witnesses can be here, but not yet have started the time of their prophecy. I believe it's possible for them to be represented by both an idea and two literal men, but only time will truly tell.

 

[Laodicea]

Remember John1:1 tells us the Word was God. Mal3:6 and Heb13:8 tells us that God/Christ does not change. So if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be candlesticks in Rev11 unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rev1 and Rev11. The same principle applies to the olive trees. If the olive trees in Romans are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them then olive trees in Rev will still be Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rom11 and Rev11.

You also need to explain how the 1260 days fit into this.

 

[kenisyes]

I did not think to question your use of "heavens", only of "understanding". I assumed you meant by heavens, the heaven that is stated to be the "heaven of the Lord", and would thus include the shamayim created as mentioned in Gen. 1:1. To my experience, reaching for any eventually results in reaching for them all.

That was what I hoped you meant by understanding, so I can say I really love your interpretation. Do you think it is related to Philo of Alexandria's interpretation of the two cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant - that they are the justice and the mercy of God. The two interpretations are not incompatible.

A mathematician - Pierre Fermat, I think, believed that the last trumpet would sound when all the matter on earth had been sanctified by being cycled through the body of a saved human.. He computed the number of atoms in an average human body, divided into the number of atoms in the earth and worked out the date based on that and the expected rate of population birth and deaths and however he figured out what percent of people got saved in each generation. I truly hope that your interpretation is correct, and that only our ability to love and forgive is blocking the total salvation of every person created by God.

I still would like to get your take on when the 1260 days are. Maybe it relates to the days in Daniel?

 

[kenisyes]

I'm new to this interface, but I typed this answer a half hour ago, but it's not here now. I think I may have forgotten to hit submit, so if you see it twice, that's why:

I never thought to question what you meant by "heaven". I assumed it was shamayim as you say. My experience is that if you reach for one, you wind up reaching for them all.

You meant what I hoped you meant by "understanding". I love your interpretation. A French mathematician - Pierre Fermat, I think, attempted to calculate the date of the second coming by the assumption that every atom on earth needed to be redeemed by being present in the body of a "saved" person. He figured birth and death rates, percentage of people "saved" (no, I don't know how he got that number), number of atoms in the earth and did the math. I truly hope you are right, and that it is only our lack of complete love and forgiveness that block anyone coming to God.

Do you think the two witnesses are related to Philo of Alexandria's interpretation of the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant cover? He says they are the justice and the mercy of God. The two interpretations to me do not seem incompatible.

I still would like your take on the when the 1260 days are. Does it relate to the days in Daniel?

 

[WolfInOxHide]

shamayim created as mentioned in Gen. 1:1

I believe if we have the symbolism revealed, we can go back and read Genesis in an entirely new "light". A spiritual story which comes from the physical representation.
I don't claim however to understand all the symbolism in scripture.

the two cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant

I believe all instances of two in scripture carefully represent a witness.
I believe the symbols are consistent from book to book, and that the numbers are also symbolic, even when they are literal.

Finally, I submit that focusing on the symbols more than our walk, is making a graven image and worshiping it. I believe the Set Apart Spirit leads us to the symbols, not the other way around.

I don't yet have a definitive opinion on the 1260 days, except that I believe there will be a literal 1260 days of obvious prophecy in the near future.

 

[doulos]

You also need to explain how the 1260 days fit into this.

The purpose of this thread is not to demonstrate the prophetic time line but to show that per the inspired Word of God candlesticks are churches and olive trees are Jew and Christians.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Do you disagree that candlesticks are churches? Do you disagree that olive trees are Jew and Christians? So if candlesticks are churches and olive trees are Jews and Christians then wouldm't the two candlesticks and two olive trees be the Jewish and Christian churches?

 

[peterT]

Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth

Let’s start by recognizing that God’s inspired Word is using figurative or symbolic language to describe the two witnesses. Clearly literal candlesticks and olive trees aren’t the witnesses so using the literal definitions for these terms will lead us into error. We must also consider that two plus two equal four so is it possible that one set of two is an identifier that identifies the other set of two? So let’s use sound hermeneutic principles and see if we can figure out who/what the two witnesses are. One of the rules of hermeneutics when it comes to Scripture is the rule of Scriptural adjacency. That Rule states: When you readsomething you don't understand, first study the surrounding text,then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate theverse to the whole Bible.

Rom11 tells us that the olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them. Rev1:20 tells us seven candlesticks are seven churches, so two candlesticks would be two churches.

If candlesticks are churches then which two churches are they? The olive trees hold the answer, olive trees are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst the Jews. So in this case the two olive trees plus the two candlesticks equal the Jewish and the Christian churches.

I know this won’t fit what most people have been taught but if we allow Scripture to define itself when dealing with figurative (or symbolic) language quite often the message becomes clear.

Remember John1:1 tells us the Word was God. Mal3:6 and Heb13:8 tells us that God/Christ does not change. So if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be candlesticks in Rev11 unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rev1 and Rev11. The same principle applies to the olive trees. If the olive trees in Romans are Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them then olive trees in Rev will still be Jews with Christians grafted in amongst them unless the Lord Himself changes that definition between Rom11 and Rev11.

There is no Jewish churches just Christian.

One body the church

Colossians1:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

One baptism one spirit one body the church and we all drink from the same spirit

 

[Laodicea]

The 2 olive trees and candlesticks is quoting Zechariah 4.

 

[doulos]

There is no Jewish churches just Christian.

One body the church

Colossians1:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

One baptism one spirit one body the church and we all drink from the same spirit

Rom 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

There are Jews that are enemies of the gospel (not Christians) but still elect. Remember God's covenant with the Jews was an everlasting covenant. Man may not honor his word and break a promise but God always honors His promises.

Would you care to explain how a Jew that is an enemy of the gospel but still elect is part of the Christian church?

 

[doulos]

The 2 olive trees and candlesticks is quoting Zechariah 4.

The rule of Scriptural adjacency states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. In other words we don’t go to the Old Testament for New Testament terms when the New Testament defines those terms for us. But even if we did go to Zec4 it would still not tell us candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments would it?

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

The 2 olive trees and candlesticks is quoting Zechariah 4.

A good friend of mine once explained this to me and this is what he had to say...

One cannot understand prophecy without using sound hermeneutics. One cannot understand prophecy if they fail to recognize prophecy describes literal events in figurative language. One cannot understand Bible prophecy if they don’t use the definitions God Himself gave us for figurative terms used in prophecy. One cannot understand prophecy if one blindly follows traditional teachings that are in error (We were warned not to make that mistake Mark7:13).

Allow me to provide an example;

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a
thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the rules of hermeneutics. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermeneutics has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the rule of "scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read some thing you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it is a very good one. In other words ... We don't go to the Old Testament for definitions of New Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly!


In Rev 11:4 quoted above, the Two Witnesses of the Christian Era are described as olive trees and candlesticks. To find the correct definition for those figures, we should find the closest contextual address which explains them. Lo and behold, right in Revelation we find candlesticks defined:

Revelation1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Right in Revelation 1, candlesticks are defined as churches. If candlesticks are churches in Rev 1, then guess what? Candlesticks are still churches in Rev 11. The only way they would not be Churches is if the Lord God Himself changed the symbolic meaning of that word somewhere between Rev 1:20 and Rev 11:4. No change of definition appears there so the candlesticks of Rev 11:4 are churches. That interpretation is not the product of some clever theologian's overactive imagination. Candlesticks are churches because the Bible itself defines them as such.


So, if the seven candlesticks of Rev 1 are seven churches, what do you suppose the two candlesticks of Rev 11 might be? Why, two churches of course. But if the Two Witnesses are only two churches, which churches are they? Probably every denomination in the world would like to believe it is one of the Two Witnesses (with the rest of Christendom being heretics, of course), but God's churches of the Christian Era are far broader than man's sectarian restrictions, and the Olive Trees figure positively identifies who they are.

Still applying the principle of scriptural adjacency, we first try for a definition of olive trees in Revelation and then in the rest of the New Testament. Four times in the Old, and twice in the New, Israel is defined as an olive tree. But we still don't use Old Testament definitions to define New Testament figures when there are New
Testament definitions that fit perfectly:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the [Jewish] branches be broken off, and thou[the Gentile church], being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Romans 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews] , which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Revelation is a New Testament book, and a New Testament definition for olive trees appears in Romans 11. According to that whole chapter, the Gentile church is one olive tree, and the Jewish people are the other. As a result ...

One witness is the Jewish people and the other witness is the Gentile church!

It became apparent to me that a lot of the views that are being taught to many such as Moses and Elijah or the Old Testament and the New Testament are these two witnesses is only based on the precepts of man and not what the Word of God reveals.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Laodicea]

The Bicle says we are to use all of God's word not a portion. I understand about that method but it is flawed because it does not use all the Bible.

 

[Laodicea]

The purpose of this thread is not to demonstrate the prophetic time line but to show that per the inspired Word of God candlesticks are churches and olive trees are Jew and Christians.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Do you disagree that candlesticks are churches? Do you disagree that olive trees are Jew and Christians? So if candlesticks are churches and olive trees are Jews and Christians then wouldm't the two candlesticks and two olive trees be the Jewish and Christian churches?

The 1260 days clothed in sackcloth is part of the description so you should give an explanation as to how Revelation 11:3 fits in with the description of the 2 witnesses.

 

[peterT]

Rom 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

There are Jews that are enemies of the gospel (not Christians) but still elect. Remember God's covenant with the Jews was an everlasting covenant. Man may not honor his word and break a promise but God always honors His promises.

Would you care to explain how a Jew that is an enemy of the gospel but still elect is part of the Christian church?

You have God supping with children of disobedience and the children of disobedience supping with God, them being his people and him being there God and NO sign of the blood of the lamb in sight.

But the word says.

1John2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

John14;6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:

No such thing as Jewish church and none of those verses say such a thing.

You can’t have the farther without Jesus.

When the Jews repent then they will be going to a Christian church because there is only one body the church and there is no respect of persons with God.

One nation one blood one baptism one spirit to drink from, one body the church and we are all one in Christ and we are his people.

1 Peter 2:8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy

 

[Laodicea]

The rule of Scriptural adjacency states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. In other words we don’t go to the Old Testament for New Testament terms when the New Testament defines those terms for us. But even if we did go to Zec4 it would still not tell us candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments would it?

That method is not according to the Bible.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

There is a way to reconcile the fact that the two witnesses are all of the following:
1. The church
2. The law and the prophets
3. Moses and Elijah
4. 2 literal and current unidentifiable men.

I know it seems not to make sense.
The key lies in the "Revelation of Y'Shua", not a "revelation of doomsday", particularly in the following verse, but the solution is an experience which testifies to the fact that it itself, is unexplainable. A lot of Torah is involved.

"Arise and measure the temple, and those who worship within."

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound "cryptic", nor invite strife. I want to see more people cast away their current preconceptions, that is to be "born again" and to become "like a little child". Learn from scratch while being led by the Spirit that is Set Apart, it is a spirit, a mindset, a heart, an intent, that is uniquely different from that of each and every man. Not some magical ghost creature that flies into us.