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D
Scripture tells us they are elect while enemies of the gospel, it does not say they repent and become elect as you espouse.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?
P
Scripture tells us.
No man can come to the father but by me, and he that hath not the son hath not the father.
John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Not very loving to offer Jesus to some but not to the Jews, thats not the gospel of Jesus now is it?
Jesus died for all of us not just for some of us.
There is no Jewish church just Christian.
No man can come to the father but by me, and he that hath not the son hath not the father.
John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Not very loving to offer Jesus to some but not to the Jews, thats not the gospel of Jesus now is it?
Jesus died for all of us not just for some of us.
There is no Jewish church just Christian.
D
Still nothing productive to add to the discussion, just the same old lack of understanding. Tell me petert why are you afraid to give Scripturally based answers to the following questions?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?
P
What is a lack of understanding about this.
John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
D
Still sidestepping the questions I asked.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying the elect that are enemies of the gospel are antichrists?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying the elect that are enemies of the gospel are antichrists?
P
I think it’s you that is sidestepping for how can a man come to the father without coming through the door and how can a man mediate with God without the son if no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, and there is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.And Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.
I think you have missed the basic milk of the gospel here.
For 2000 years the Jews have been coming to Christ and now suddenly they don’t need Jesus?
What gospel is this you preach?
I think you have missed the basic milk of the gospel here.
For 2000 years the Jews have been coming to Christ and now suddenly they don’t need Jesus?
What gospel is this you preach?
D
Not at all my friend, as all can see you continue to sidestep the issue by refusing to answer the following questions.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you calling the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father's sake antichrists. Answer the questions petert are continue sidestepping, your choice.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you calling the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father's sake antichrists. Answer the questions petert are continue sidestepping, your choice.
D
Wasn’t God’s covenant with the Jews an everlasting covenant? Remember we do not replace the Jews but instead we are grafted in amongst those branches(Jews) that were not broken out.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Interesting view of the Jews you hold, but please don’t put words in my mouth. I fully understand Jews are enemies of the gospel but we must not forget there are some (not all, only some of the branches were broken off) who are still elect for their father’s sake. Now will you quit sidestepping the issue.
Petert in post # 30, 36, 39, 42, 44, 46, and 48 of this thread I asked these questions you refuse to provide direct answers to.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying that enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake are antichrists?
I do understand your reluctance to answer, after all those verses just don’t fit your doctrine do they? Does your doctrine have a scripturally sound answer to these questions or do they just teach you to throw out other verses and try changing the subject when the hard questions come out?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Interesting view of the Jews you hold, but please don’t put words in my mouth. I fully understand Jews are enemies of the gospel but we must not forget there are some (not all, only some of the branches were broken off) who are still elect for their father’s sake. Now will you quit sidestepping the issue.
Petert in post # 30, 36, 39, 42, 44, 46, and 48 of this thread I asked these questions you refuse to provide direct answers to.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying that enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake are antichrists?
I do understand your reluctance to answer, after all those verses just don’t fit your doctrine do they? Does your doctrine have a scripturally sound answer to these questions or do they just teach you to throw out other verses and try changing the subject when the hard questions come out?
MAy I give my two cents s well....
Firstly all Israel are blinded for a time untill THE NUMBER of gentiles are full... Looks like there are a specific number planned by God for gentiles in heaven... Rom 11:25. And so ALL ISRAEL SHAL BE SAVED... Verse 26.
Did Jesus not say there will not be peace in Jerusalem untill they say... Blessed is He that came in the NAme of the Lord.... So it looks like ISrael, Jerusalem will one day recognise Jesus as Lord, and it can onle happen when that BLINDNESS IN PART is removed by God and He shall turn away UNGODLINESS from Israel. And they will ALL say Blessed Jesus Christ who comes in the Name of the Lord! Becasue the covenant of God with Israel is that He shall take away Their sin. Rom 11:27.
The bad news for the Gentiles then is... no more Gentiles will be saved then.
The two witnesses is two MEN. Plain and simple, they will prohesy, SPEAK GOD'S MIND, and OPPOSE what was accepted, as truth, by the CITY THAT IS SPIRITUALLY CALLED SODOM! So I guess these two men will prohecy against HOMOSEXUALITY and whoring after the LIE! And they will be killed for this, put on the street of that city and for three and a half days the people in the ciry will rejoice on their death, but THEN.... The Spirit of LIFE from God shall enter them, they will stand on their feet and great fear will fall upon them that sees them again. The voice from heaven will call them up and they will ascend up into heaven.
This will be the two men God predestined for this Prophecy, May the Lord keep me in faith that I may be part of the number He predestined as saved Gentiles.
Lord Jesus, I thank You for Your wonderful Word, and that You clear all cloudiness, that we may walk in the LIGHT! Amen!
Firstly all Israel are blinded for a time untill THE NUMBER of gentiles are full... Looks like there are a specific number planned by God for gentiles in heaven... Rom 11:25. And so ALL ISRAEL SHAL BE SAVED... Verse 26.
Did Jesus not say there will not be peace in Jerusalem untill they say... Blessed is He that came in the NAme of the Lord.... So it looks like ISrael, Jerusalem will one day recognise Jesus as Lord, and it can onle happen when that BLINDNESS IN PART is removed by God and He shall turn away UNGODLINESS from Israel. And they will ALL say Blessed Jesus Christ who comes in the Name of the Lord! Becasue the covenant of God with Israel is that He shall take away Their sin. Rom 11:27.
The bad news for the Gentiles then is... no more Gentiles will be saved then.
The two witnesses is two MEN. Plain and simple, they will prohesy, SPEAK GOD'S MIND, and OPPOSE what was accepted, as truth, by the CITY THAT IS SPIRITUALLY CALLED SODOM! So I guess these two men will prohecy against HOMOSEXUALITY and whoring after the LIE! And they will be killed for this, put on the street of that city and for three and a half days the people in the ciry will rejoice on their death, but THEN.... The Spirit of LIFE from God shall enter them, they will stand on their feet and great fear will fall upon them that sees them again. The voice from heaven will call them up and they will ascend up into heaven.
This will be the two men God predestined for this Prophecy, May the Lord keep me in faith that I may be part of the number He predestined as saved Gentiles.
Lord Jesus, I thank You for Your wonderful Word, and that You clear all cloudiness, that we may walk in the LIGHT! Amen!
D
How do two candlesticks and two olive trees add up to two men?
Doesn’t Scripture tell us the two witnesses are two candlesticks and two olive trees? Doesn’t Scripture tell us candles sticks are churches? Doesn’t Scripture tell us that olive trees are Jews and Christians?
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
If seven candlesticks are seven churches wouldn’t two candlsesticks be two churches? (remember churches are people not buildings) So which two churches (groups of people) are they? Doesn’t Scripture tell us olive trees are Jews and Christians? So if we use the definitions Scripture provides for candlesticks and olive trees then wouldn’t the two candlesticks and the two olive trees be the Jewish and the Christian churches(people)?
Doesn’t Scripture tell us the two witnesses are two candlesticks and two olive trees? Doesn’t Scripture tell us candles sticks are churches? Doesn’t Scripture tell us that olive trees are Jews and Christians?
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
If seven candlesticks are seven churches wouldn’t two candlsesticks be two churches? (remember churches are people not buildings) So which two churches (groups of people) are they? Doesn’t Scripture tell us olive trees are Jews and Christians? So if we use the definitions Scripture provides for candlesticks and olive trees then wouldn’t the two candlesticks and the two olive trees be the Jewish and the Christian churches(people)?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
The above verse shows only part of Israel is blinded, not all.
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
The above verse shows only part of Israel is blinded, not all.
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
P
Jesus is the vine and we are grafted into him not to the Jews.
John15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
I have answered your question in thread #41 as best as I can without contradicting the rest of the bible.
Unlike your interpretation that has contradicting all scripture and everything that Jesus and the disciples died for.
Jesus said to Nicodemus the leader of the Jews you must be born again
But you say to the leaders of the Jews, no need to be born again.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man come’s to the father but by me.
But you say there is a way to the father besides Jesus.
The Bible says he that hath not the son hath not the father.
But you say some don’t need the son to have the father .
The bible says there is a mediator between god and man Christ Jesus.
But you say there is no mediator for the Jews.
And you won’t me to entertain this as the spirit of God?
A younger brother in the lord might fall for it, but not me.
Matt24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
John15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
I have answered your question in thread #41 as best as I can without contradicting the rest of the bible.
Unlike your interpretation that has contradicting all scripture and everything that Jesus and the disciples died for.
Jesus said to Nicodemus the leader of the Jews you must be born again
But you say to the leaders of the Jews, no need to be born again.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man come’s to the father but by me.
But you say there is a way to the father besides Jesus.
The Bible says he that hath not the son hath not the father.
But you say some don’t need the son to have the father .
The bible says there is a mediator between god and man Christ Jesus.
But you say there is no mediator for the Jews.
And you won’t me to entertain this as the spirit of God?
A younger brother in the lord might fall for it, but not me.
Matt24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Thank you for that Chritianworrier...
In Part can be two meanings.. in part as in part of the total, or in part as in part of the time.. Part of the time is what I believe for Jesus came for Israel not the Gentiles... the bread and the dogs verses... But the dogs eat the crumbs that falls from the table... Did only part of Israel reject God or is only part of them blinded for our sakes... As i see them, they are all not yet Jesus's disciples! And I agree that a small portion will be kept by God for His Glory, He said He has ALWAYS had a part of Jakob Holy for him. But in this verse i think God means that the blindness of Israel is in part of the time, because he will at the end of this time REMOVE the blindness so that ALL ISRAEL is clean.
Two candlesticks... MMMM.... In the Bible candlesticks are actual candlesticks, and it is churches and it symbolise soething that carries light, And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment... wow a garment that can clothe a church? Down to the foot... Or is this also one like unto the Son of God or man. So here is a reference to a SINGLE man. And the Two witnesses will be TWO men , Two witnesses, Two men, I am pretty sure this is what is written and what is meant by this verse.
In Part can be two meanings.. in part as in part of the total, or in part as in part of the time.. Part of the time is what I believe for Jesus came for Israel not the Gentiles... the bread and the dogs verses... But the dogs eat the crumbs that falls from the table... Did only part of Israel reject God or is only part of them blinded for our sakes... As i see them, they are all not yet Jesus's disciples! And I agree that a small portion will be kept by God for His Glory, He said He has ALWAYS had a part of Jakob Holy for him. But in this verse i think God means that the blindness of Israel is in part of the time, because he will at the end of this time REMOVE the blindness so that ALL ISRAEL is clean.
Two candlesticks... MMMM.... In the Bible candlesticks are actual candlesticks, and it is churches and it symbolise soething that carries light, And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment... wow a garment that can clothe a church? Down to the foot... Or is this also one like unto the Son of God or man. So here is a reference to a SINGLE man. And the Two witnesses will be TWO men , Two witnesses, Two men, I am pretty sure this is what is written and what is meant by this verse.
D
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
So this verse is in error, we aren’t grafted in amongst the Jews?
Nothing in your reply in post 41 answers my questions. As I pointed out earlier the Jews who are enemies of the gospel are elect while being enemies of the gospel not after they become Christians as you falsely claim. So allow me to ask again:
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying the elect that are enemies of the gospel are antichrists?
Just because the doctrinal filter you wear makes you wise in your own conceits to the point that you fail to understand the truth contained in Rom11:28 does not mean my view contradicts Scripture. On the other hand it does demonstrate your unwillingness to reconcile Rom11:28 with your doctrine. Defending our doctrines is not as important as finding the truth.
Agreed
That’s not what I am saying at all, you jump to false conclusions without understanding. Even the Old Testament saints were born again and saved by their faith in Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Old or new testament makes no difference it has always been about the circumcision of the heart that comes with being born again.
Eze 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and
I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Agreed even the Old Testament saints like Abraham, Isaac and Moses were saved through Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Could it be that the enemies of the gospel that are elect are the Jews That have been given a spirit of slumber and they are born again the same way Moses, Abraham etc…. were saved? Wasn’t God’s covenant with them everlasting? How can it be everlasting if there is not a remnant of believing Jews? Hebrews8:13 tells us we have a new covenant and “that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away’, but it isn’t gone yet. It is the only hope for the Jew that has been given a spirit of slumber and is not allowed to see the truth contained in the gospel. Do you believe God is so cruel He would blind people to the truth and then condemn them without giving them on opportunity to accept Christ?
An outright lie, show us where I made such a statement! What post was it in? Could it be your lack of understanding of my view results in you leaping to the wrong conclusion? It certainly appears that way!
No argument there I’ve already demonstrated that even the old testament saints were saved through Christ, we all drink from the same Rock and that Rock is Christ(1Cor10:1-4)
Once again an outright lie. Please show us where I said that! What was the post number? Or is this another case of you jumping to a faulty conclusion because you refuse to take the time to gain an understanding of what others are actually saying?
Agreed
Once again you resort to lying and misrepresenting what was said because you refuse to take the time to gain an understanding of the view I espouse.
If you want to understand God’s word you must look at all of God’s word and if part of it does not match the doctrine you espouse then change your doctrine to match Scripture, don’t throw out the verse so you can cling to your doctrine.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
How do you reconcile the above verse with your beliefs? Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect Christians? How can they be a Christian if they are enemies of the gospel?
A younger brother in the Lord may not have his doctrinal filter so firmly entrenched it blinds him from the truth
ROFL, this from a futurist claiming to know what is coming. Thanks I needed a good laugh. Scripture tells us to judge a tree by the fruit it produces. Should we look at the fruit produced by futurists? How many futurists have turned out to be false prophets and as a result of their failed predictions caused the nonbelievers to scoff and ridicule the believers? Is that good fruit? Do you really want to be a part of that tree? Should I name a few of the futurists whose predictions have failed making them false prophets? How about Harold Camping or Edgar Whisenant, need more a quick google (yahoo whatever) search provides quite a list.
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
“Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that expectation they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe”. - Matthew Henry
So this verse is in error, we aren’t grafted in amongst the Jews?
Nothing in your reply in post 41 answers my questions. As I pointed out earlier the Jews who are enemies of the gospel are elect while being enemies of the gospel not after they become Christians as you falsely claim. So allow me to ask again:
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to? Are you saying the elect that are enemies of the gospel are antichrists?
Just because the doctrinal filter you wear makes you wise in your own conceits to the point that you fail to understand the truth contained in Rom11:28 does not mean my view contradicts Scripture. On the other hand it does demonstrate your unwillingness to reconcile Rom11:28 with your doctrine. Defending our doctrines is not as important as finding the truth.
Agreed
That’s not what I am saying at all, you jump to false conclusions without understanding. Even the Old Testament saints were born again and saved by their faith in Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Old or new testament makes no difference it has always been about the circumcision of the heart that comes with being born again.
Eze 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and
I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Agreed even the Old Testament saints like Abraham, Isaac and Moses were saved through Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Could it be that the enemies of the gospel that are elect are the Jews That have been given a spirit of slumber and they are born again the same way Moses, Abraham etc…. were saved? Wasn’t God’s covenant with them everlasting? How can it be everlasting if there is not a remnant of believing Jews? Hebrews8:13 tells us we have a new covenant and “that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away’, but it isn’t gone yet. It is the only hope for the Jew that has been given a spirit of slumber and is not allowed to see the truth contained in the gospel. Do you believe God is so cruel He would blind people to the truth and then condemn them without giving them on opportunity to accept Christ?
An outright lie, show us where I made such a statement! What post was it in? Could it be your lack of understanding of my view results in you leaping to the wrong conclusion? It certainly appears that way!
No argument there I’ve already demonstrated that even the old testament saints were saved through Christ, we all drink from the same Rock and that Rock is Christ(1Cor10:1-4)
Once again an outright lie. Please show us where I said that! What was the post number? Or is this another case of you jumping to a faulty conclusion because you refuse to take the time to gain an understanding of what others are actually saying?
Agreed
Once again you resort to lying and misrepresenting what was said because you refuse to take the time to gain an understanding of the view I espouse.
If you want to understand God’s word you must look at all of God’s word and if part of it does not match the doctrine you espouse then change your doctrine to match Scripture, don’t throw out the verse so you can cling to your doctrine.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
How do you reconcile the above verse with your beliefs? Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect Christians? How can they be a Christian if they are enemies of the gospel?
A younger brother in the Lord may not have his doctrinal filter so firmly entrenched it blinds him from the truth
ROFL, this from a futurist claiming to know what is coming. Thanks I needed a good laugh. Scripture tells us to judge a tree by the fruit it produces. Should we look at the fruit produced by futurists? How many futurists have turned out to be false prophets and as a result of their failed predictions caused the nonbelievers to scoff and ridicule the believers? Is that good fruit? Do you really want to be a part of that tree? Should I name a few of the futurists whose predictions have failed making them false prophets? How about Harold Camping or Edgar Whisenant, need more a quick google (yahoo whatever) search provides quite a list.
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
“Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that expectation they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe”. - Matthew Henry
D
Nothing in the context gives us license to say just part of the time but the context does indicate that only part of the Jews were given a spirit of slumber. Clearly not all Jews were given the spirit of Slumber or their would have been no Jewish conversions to Christianity during the last two thousand years or so. So when is this part of the time that all Israel was blinded? Haven’t their been Jews (the branches broken out) being converted for the last 2000 years?
Why jump through hoops to force Scripture to fit your doctrine. If seven candlesticks are seven churches (remember churches are people) then two candlesticks are two churches (people) and the olive trees identify those two groups of people. Either we accept God’s definitions and build our doctrines on them or we reject them and force fit the Scriptures to our doctrines. We all have free will, so the question becomes do you accept that Candlesticks are churches or do you continue too try and forc Scripture to say two candlesticks are two individual men?
Why jump through hoops to force Scripture to fit your doctrine. If seven candlesticks are seven churches (remember churches are people) then two candlesticks are two churches (people) and the olive trees identify those two groups of people. Either we accept God’s definitions and build our doctrines on them or we reject them and force fit the Scriptures to our doctrines. We all have free will, so the question becomes do you accept that Candlesticks are churches or do you continue too try and forc Scripture to say two candlesticks are two individual men?
K
Ed12, we are getting very far afield of the two witnesses. Maybe we should start our own thread or some such? You may e-mail me, if I understand how this interface works (I'm qu9ite new here). My first reaction is what vowels did they use in the Hebrew name? Do you know the ancient belief in sorcery that uttering the correct name of God will give unlimited power to order the universe? You certainly had to do what you did. Isn't something already wrong, if a message came from a wind, instead of from the Holy Spirit who felt like a wind? Again, I note that when the witnesses take their ministry station, they will be a lot less laid back in their response to such nonsense.
P
You can ask me as many times as you like, I answered it as best I can without contradicting the words of Jesus and contradicting the rest of the bible.
OK so what are you saying?
Does this Jewish church that you talk about believe in Jesus or not? And do they confess him with their mouth?
If so then it is a Christian church for there is nether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus and he hath made one blood all nations of men.
If not, then what I said stands. This-
Jesus said to Nicodemus the leader of the Jews you must be born again
But you say to the leaders of the Jews, no need to be born again or to confess him with their mouth.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
OK so what are you saying?
Does this Jewish church that you talk about believe in Jesus or not? And do they confess him with their mouth?
If so then it is a Christian church for there is nether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus and he hath made one blood all nations of men.
If not, then what I said stands. This-
Jesus said to Nicodemus the leader of the Jews you must be born again
But you say to the leaders of the Jews, no need to be born again or to confess him with their mouth.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.