Can someone lose their salvation?

[feedm3]

hi Greenie, how are you this evening?

I have a great need to talk to someone who doesn't totally misunderstand what I'm saying.

sigh.... maybe in another thread?

I don't have a point to prove, I just have a life to live for the Glory of God.

I don't have time for pointless arguments where others place words I never said or even thought into my mouth. I prefer conversation about what I actually believe or have said.

but i guess today its too much to hope.

I'll go wander off and start another thread, if you have a chance greenie come talk to me there. love you bro.

(feeling kind of discouraged)

But you have time to indirectly keep arguing?

Just for the record, I said a lot of things you did not mention, I know I did. However, I was not putting words in your mouth as I never said you stated anything. So I dont know how your getting that.

When I was speaking of other things pertaining to my point, it was just me trying to clarify what I was trying to say, not insinuating you said anything other than what I quoted.

You started off showing you really did not want to talk to me in the first place, and yet you continued to do so. I am not trying to discourage you, i was simply answering you back.

Anyway, we can drop it, take care, hope you feel better

 

[Ariel82]

Okay lets see.

As for the gift, your saying if we do anything, as in obey, we are earning?

nope didn't say that at all.

 

[Ariel82]

I don't mind talking to you Feedme3, i'm just not in the mood for arguing with anyone there is a difference between dialog and debating. if you want to clarify your thoughts and hear mine that's fine. if you are out to prove that you are right, then I really don't have the time, because the only PERFECT person who is RIGHT all the time that I know is God through His Holy Spirit.

Humans are just trying to learn to walk without stumbling, yet too many are given burdens not from God that they are barely able to crawl.

 

[Ariel82]

so you want to discuss Hebrews 5: 9 and John 3:36 and a few other scriptures?

alright give me some time and I'll go back and read them and try and give you a clear answer.

hmmm.....

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” NKJV

how about another version? I know there is KJV people out there.....

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

interesting.... it doesn't seem to say what you want it to say when you read it in those two versions...

as for hebrews 5 i have to feed my daughter, i have a feeling it might take a little while to get you to see what I'm trying to say. maybe after her bed time in a couple of hours.

 

[feedm3]

so you want to discuss Hebrews 5: 9 and John 3:36 and a few other scriptures?

alright give me some time and I'll go back and read them and try and give you a clear answer.

hmmm.....

how about another version? I know there is KJV people out there.....

interesting.... it doesn't seem to say what you want it to say when you read it in those two versions...

as for hebrews 5 i have to feed my daughter, i have a feeling it might take a little while to get you to see what I'm trying to say. maybe after her bed time in a couple of hours.

Ariel, that is why i mentioned THE GREEK. See when we look at the greek, then we dont have to worry about other translations, we can see which is the most accurate.

Joh 3:36 He that believethG4100 onG1519 theG3588 SonG5207 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life:G2222 andG1161 he that believethG544 not theG3588 SonG5207 shall notG3756 seeG3700 life;G2222 butG235 theG3588 wrathG3709 of GodG2316 abidethG3306 onG1909 him.G846

Notice the two times it says believeth. Now notice the two strong's numbers in red, are different numbers. That is because they are not the same word. So now lets look up the first - G4100

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

So we see "beeliveth" is an accuarte rendering for this context.

Now the second word - G3588

G544
ἀπειθέω
apeitheō
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Now this word is different. It can mean to disbelieve, or to disobey. It is used 16 times in the NT for believe not, or disobey.

My point is not that the KJV is wrong, neither is the ASV. BOTH ARE CORRECT. I am trying to prove to you that belief and obedience in this word, they are synonymous. Meaning you cant have belief without obedience, nor obedience without belief.

There is other words in Greek for "unbeliever", "believe not" etc. Yet this word is used, because it means both, you cant have one without the other.

This is why the servant in Luke 12, who believed he had a lord, yet lived disobedient while his Lord was away, was cast his portion with "the unbelievers".

Because disobedience and disbelief are the same. If one believes, yet lives as one who does not, he will receive the same punishment, because his actions showed his belief was not true.

Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord(shows he believed) delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;(live in sin, disobediene)
46 The lord of that servant (master was still Lord of that servant)will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers (because he lived as one)

nope didn't say that at all.

The Phrase you quoted here from me did not prove I put words in your mouth if that's what this was supposed to do.

Simply because if you read the statement you quoted, you failed to see the question mark at the end. That means I was asking if that's what your saying. So still just an accusation, that is really just pointless.

Here is what I said: Notice the ????? at the end

Originally Posted by feedm3

Okay lets see.

As for the gift, your saying if we do anything, as in obey, we are earning?

I don't mind talking to you Feedme3, i'm just not in the mood for arguing with anyone there is a difference between dialog and debating. if you want to clarify your thoughts and hear mine that's fine. if you are out to prove that you are right, then I really don't have the time, because the only PERFECT person who is RIGHT all the time that I know is God through His Holy Spirit.

Humans are just trying to learn to walk without stumbling, yet too many are given burdens not from God that they are barely able to crawl.

Well I cant figure you out. First your saying you done or dont have time for me, now your making two new arguments.

Anyway, just you even quoting my question to you as an attempt to prove I was putting words in your mouth shows me where this conversation is going to be like.

It would have been more mature just to say something like, "well I thought you were maybe not" then to go and try to find something after I explained I was not doing that. And then when all you could find was a question I asked, why post that? it showed you couldn't find anything to support your accusation.

Anyway there is my response, if you dont want to continue then again please dont. I am done apologizing to everyone who hold this position because they keep accusing me of things, yet cant even show any support for their accusations. It only shows you all cant deal with your own arguments.

I have already explained myself enough. Deal with the arguements or dont, but leave out all the accusations unless you can show where I am doing what you are saying.

 

[davidable]

The police have the beliefe that they are to be worshiped and that they can take someones soul away from them.

They think that religion is just something to steal from and that no man can worship God as long as they have something to do with it so they say

 

[davidable]

The truth is that jesus christ rains over the soul and no man has authority over it

 

[Ariel82]

wow you are mighty defensive when you don't even know what I believe at all. I haven't accused you of anything if you noticed the post was posted about the same time you posted your response therefore I was typing it before you responded or at least before I read your response because the page had not refreshed yet.


as for the Greek disobedience = disbelief....

I'll research it but most often there is a reason for the use of context. as you already mentioned Faith does really mean faith and not obedience.

however it does not change the fact that it is Faith that causes obedience, not obedience that causes faith.

 

[ReinItIn]

i know Jesus is able to keep all those the father has given him. I know he is faithful and just to forgive if we confess. I know he will not turn away anyone that comes to him. But, I believe many have never knew him that call them selves christian. I don't believe the" say this pray and you saved doctrine". Some came to a saving faith by those prayers. But, not everyone that says it is saved. Not every heart that asks Christ in actually wants him to be Lord. I think a lot of Pastors have lied to people and people will perishable cause those lies. Show me in the bible where there is Salvation without conviction of sin, the transforming power of God and repentance. if it is in the bible I have never seen it.

matthew 13
18 “You, then, listen to the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word[c] about the kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path. 20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction[d] of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does bear fruit and yields: some 100, some 60, some 30 times what was sown.”

i think people that say a prayer and go on living for themselves and in sin without changed hearts, minds, lives probably have not repented and believed unto salvation. People that say Don't judge me, you can't judge my heart, Jesus loves me, only have half truth.. Yes Jesus loves us the proof is the cross and he loves us while we are dead in our sin. God has already judged man and found us lacking! if we are not born again we will not see his kingdom. A person that doesn't relize there flesh is in rebellion against God and condemned to death. Without Jesus's Spirit giving knew life and his blood giving us atonement, all creation would stand and cheer as any of us take our first step in hell.. Hallelujah. God has cleansed all creation of wickedness... There is no condemnation for all those who are in Christ Jesus who walk after the spirit not after the flesh... but, as far as I can see in the bible all those outside Christ in sin, in rebellion to the truth are all condemned. Do we still sin if we are Christian? yeah, sometimes we do and it breaks our hearts because it shows us with out Christ their would be no way to walk in his Spirit and nature. God is just and he has condemned sin in sinful man to hell.

Repent and believe.. keep repenting and believing and you will be changed and saved.

that is my opinion..

 

[clarkthompson]

I don't believe you can lose your salvation because there is nothing you can do to earn it in the frist place we are as sinful as we can be to go to hell before we recieve Christ so if we are that sinful when we recieve it how can we lose it

 

[feedm3]

wow you are mighty defensive when you don't even know what I believe at all. I haven't accused you of anything if you noticed the post was posted about the same time you posted your response therefore I was typing it before you responded or at least before I read your response because the page had not refreshed yet.

Yea I dont understand what your saying here. You accused me of putting words in your mouth, and arguing pointlessly or something like that. Then you posted were I asked you question. You know how it all went I dont have to sit here and recap.

Call me defensive or whatever, it does not matter to me. I simply refuted what you said, your the one with all the "extra" talk here about everything else besides the points I brought up.

as for the Greek disobedience = disbelief....

I'll research it but most often there is a reason for the use of context. as you already mentioned Faith does really mean faith and not obedience.

however it does not change the fact that it is Faith that causes obedience, not obedience that causes faith.

I showed you the Greek, plus 3 tranlatoins, there is no argument here unless you just dont agree with Greek adn Scholars.

The Point was to show you the the two words are interchangble.

When one hears the gospel, he is expected to obey what it says in order to maintian salavtion, sense it is by the gospel salvation is offered.

Yes we must obey what it says, the first of those commands are "repent and be baptized" - Acts 2:38.

Upon believeing, one should choose to repent, adn be baptized into Christ, so the blood of Christ can wash away his/her sins - Acts 2:38, Gal 3:27, Acts 22:16, I Jn 5:8.

After this, we should continue to remain faithful to the commands of Christ, because that is the only way we can show our love for him - Jn 14:15, Rev 2:10

One who chooses not to do so, and continue in sin, cannot expect salvation seeing they choose disobedience, which according to the Greek in Jn 3:36, shows one who does such, does not truly believe, and will be rejected, just as the unfaithful servant in Luke 12, that I cited above.

Everything I have said here, I have supported with scripture, I encourage you to read them with an honest mind, and tell me if they conclude obedience is not needed for salvation.

You said I dont know what you believe, so then tell me. Instead of wasting time with the "I see why God did not place it in my heart to talk to you" and "your putting words in my Mouth" and now "i never accused you of anything" etc, all not explaining anything, which is why I may not know what you beleive.

 

[feedm3]

I don't believe you can lose your salvation because there is nothing you can do to earn it in the frist place we are as sinful as we can be to go to hell before we recieve Christ so if we are that sinful when we recieve it how can we lose it

You can loose it by rejecting it. Just as the unfaithful servant in Luke 12:43-f. He rejected the salvation of his Lord because he wanted to live in sin.

Just because we cant earn it, does not mean we cant reject it, even after we think we have accepted.

I can give you a gift, and you can take that gift and use it, or you can throw it back in face. You did not earn, yet you can reject it.

That is why Paul warned the Christians not to recieve the gift in vain.

II Cor 6:1 "now we beseech you as workers together with you, receive not the grace of God IN VAIN"

"vain' means of no effect, pointless, Empty...

If we are saved by grace (and we are) and grace can become vain (noneffective) to us, then that implies we are not saved.

Heb 10:26-f. is so plain that the sacrifice or Christ does not cover willful (unrepentant) sins. Read it, and the context around it. Before you say it was written to those under the law, make sure you read the following 3 verses from 26. Those PROVE it was written to Christians.

God does not take our salvation, we reject it, by refusing to do our duty - Luk 17:10

That duty is obedience - Ecc 12:13.

At least read the passages I am bringing up, I hope they will help you see that this false ddoctrine the majority of "Christians" believe, is just another snare of Satan, and he loves it. - II Cor 11:13-f.

 

[Ariel82]

its my time to waste. If you really want to know what I believe, you could always read my other posts and threads.

I'm quite clear what i believe. sides when I read or respond to this thread I'm thinking of Selena.

If you find me immature and a waste of your time, just stop trying to jam your beliefs down my throat. you are kind of pushy.

Is this how God taught you to love and teach others

what would you say to someone who was not saved at all?

who despite all your words they chose NOT to accept the gift?

what would you do then?

tell them they are going to hell? do you think fear tactics would work?

or would you do and say anything differently if you were talking to someone who did NOT know Christ as their Lord and Savior?

if you think these questions are a waste of time by all means don't answer, but trust me they are not idle.

 

[feedm3]

its my time to waste. If you really want to know what I believe, you could always read my other posts and threads.

Your right it is yours to waste, so then stop complaining when you feel it's being wasted, does that much make sense?

I never said I wanted to know what you believe, you can tell me, or dont, I am not going to go around trying to find out.

I'm quite clear what i believe. sides when I read or respond to this thread I'm thinking of Selena.

Sorry I dont know who that is.

If you find me immature and a waste of your time, just stop trying to jam your beliefs down my throat. you are kind of pushy.

Lol, I dont find you anything, your the one saying these things. And yea all the extra talk like this is wasting time, or stalling whichever.

I am not shoving anything down your throat except logical arguments that the more you talk the more you show you cant answer.

You seem to rather "wast time" typing a personal argument then actually dealing with anything.

Is this how God taught you to love and teach others

Practice what you preach man, otherwise your no different from the pharisees.

what would you say to someone who was not saved at all?

What does that matter?

who despite all your words they chose NOT to accept the gift?

Their fault? What should I say? Sense it's a gift they cannot refuse it, so their saved? What are you even talking about.

what would you do then?

I wouldnt change the subject as you are attempting.

tell them they are going to hell? do you think fear tactics would work?

Luke 13:3 - was that a fear tatic? Bet you avoid answering that one.

or would you do and say anything differently if you were talking to someone who did NOT know Christ as their Lord and Savior?

I dont know, but I would not change the subject as you are attempting to do.

if you think these questions are a waste of time by all means don't answer, but trust me they are not idle.

Not idle, just a distraction. Like I said you dont have to talk to me, you said you dont want to anyway, you said I pushing my beliefs down your throat, putting words in your mouth, and yet you keep responding to me. It's like your having fun just arguing pointlessly, the very thing you said you did not have time for.

Now your asking me of my Love toward others? Lol. Read Matthew 23 man.

 

[Ariel82]

Selenah would be the 14 year old author of this thread you are supposedly answering..... its not a change of topic, perhaps you should pray and ask God why I bother to ask.

distraction? nope its just that we are focusing on two different things. me I'll keep my eyes on Christ and sharing His Gospel with people like Selenah.

you, not sure why you are posting on her thread at all.

the fact that you are clueless should be your first clue:

what would you say to someone who was not saved at all?

What does that matter?

who despite all your words they chose NOT to accept the gift?

Their fault? What should I say? Sense it's a gift they cannot refuse it, so their saved? What are you even talking about.

i suggest you pray about it.

sharing the Gospel always matters.

 

[feedm3]

Selenah would be the 14 year old author of this thread you are supposedly answering..... its not a change of topic, perhaps you should pray and ask God why I bother to ask.

distraction? nope its just that we are focusing on two different things. me I'll keep my eyes on Christ and sharing His Gospel with people like Selenah.

you, not sure why you are posting on her thread at all.

the fact that you are clueless should be your first clue:

i suggest you pray about it.

sharing the Gospel always matters.

I am posting in context of the subject that is being discussed now for 3 pages, does not matter what it started out as. So there is your reason.

The only thing I am clueless about is why you keep talking to me if your not/cant answer anything I posted, and you feel i am wasting your time. Yea I am pretty clueless about that one.

Anyway, if this is all your willing to do, then I will let you have the last comment. Take care.

 

[Ariel82]

what do you think Selena? will the last statement hold true? hmmmm......

 

[feedm3]

I can promise you it will hold true!!! Oh wait.....aww mann

 

[cfultz3]

I can promise you it will hold true!!! Oh wait.....aww mann

funny. But I bet you can do it.

 

[ReinItIn]

i believe we can't earn it. we don't deserve it. we can reject it, we can neglect to respond to it. We can ship wreck our faith before we receive it, we can become prodigal but still sons, I think we should examine our-selves, make our election sure, work out our salvation with fear and trembling, wrestle for his promise like Jacob and hold on to believing even if our hip gets popped out till he gives us it. i think we should make sure we aren't blind, nekid, wretched and poor walking around saying I am rich, i have fine linen, i am healed, I see.