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End times madness w Matt. 24 Part 1
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A
Abiding
Guest
Well your probably right Peter says the same thing to look for His coming
I really dont know...thing is i wasnt there and its difficult at times to know
when there is a shift between two events that far apart without a real change
like ok im done talking about the judgement now im talking about my second advent.
A
Abiding
Guest
The book of Hebrews teaches all this...The land is Zion..heavenly Jerusalem...why is it written to the Hebrews?
A
Abiding
Guest
If your talking to me...i just dont see a point to this. I read it a few times too.
If i understood what you were saying id surely give a comment...But then you did
say you were just getting going...so ill just wait it out.
A
Abiding
Guest
A
Abiding
Guest
A
Abiding
Guest
more time i dont know how much for the church age..a short time
for satan to be loosed, the return Of Christ, the resurrection, the
judgement, the eternal state.
Not sure what you wanted...it was a brief question.
for satan to be loosed, the return Of Christ, the resurrection, the
judgement, the eternal state.
Not sure what you wanted...it was a brief question.
A
Abiding
Guest
more time i dont know how much for the church age..a short time
for satan to be loosed, the return Of Christ, the resurrection, the
judgement, the eternal state.
Not sure what you wanted...it was a brief question.
There is so many different understandings, thank you and yes i was brief....
The mark of the beast is fulfilled?
A
Abiding
Guest
If i tell you yes...ill get more posts than i have time to respond to.
Fair enough, let us not continue.
ABIDING:
I will start at the beginning with you. No skirting.
According to 1 Peter 3:15
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
15 But hallow ye the Lord Christ in your hearts, and evermore be ye ready to [do] satisfaction to each man asking you reason of that faith and hope that is in you, but with mildness and dread,
I would like to call you out according to the above. I will do my best to obey the same with "mildness and dread"
Your questions are marked as "Q:"
Feel free to comment on my comments.
Do not add things that aren't there.
Compare, question, answer and come to a conclusion.
This is based on the sceintific approach.
No, I don't like 'the church of scientology'. Don't assume.
I will use the version of your choice and correct with tranlation from Greek.
Matthew 24
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
24 And Jesus went out of the temple [And Jesus gone out of the temple, went]; and his disciples came to him, to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 But he answered, and said to them, See ye all these things? Truly I say to you, a stone shall not be left here on one stone, that not it shall be destroyed [Truly I say to you, a stone shall not be left here on a stone, which shall not destroyed].
3 And when he sat on the mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privily, and said [saying], Say to us, when these things shall be, and what token of thy coming, and of the ending of the world.
Mark 13
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
13 And when he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Master, behold[a], what manner stones, and what manner buildings.
2 And Jesus answered, and said to him, Seest thou all these great buildings? there shall not be left a stone on a stone, which shall not be destroyed.[b]
3 And when he sat in the mount of Olives against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him by themselves,
4 Say thou to us, when these things shall be done, and what token shall be [and what sign shall be], when all these things shall begin to be ended.
Luke 21
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
21
5 And when some men said of the temple, that it was appareled with good stones and gifts [that it was adorned with good stones and gifts], he said,
6 These things that ye see, days shall come, in which a stone shall not be left on a stone, which shall not be destroyed.[b]
7 And they asked him, and said [saying], Commander, when shall these things be? and what token shall be, when they shall begin to be done?
================================================================
Ok. We will stop there. Let's not bite off more than we can chew. If you have any objection to the version I use, state it asap. Don't drop back later and excuse.
Establish the discussion, and render it.
1) Jesus is shown the Temple and it's other buildings.
2) Jesus utters the temple prophecy.
3) Jesus and his diciples leave the temple grounds and walk 'a Sabbath's day's journey" (approx. half an hour) to the Mt. of Olives.
4) There's no recorded discussion between Jesus and His disciples during this time. We can only speculate. I won't.
4) Jesus is approached by His diciples and questioned. First, question first. Jerusalem's destruction.
================================================================
We begin. What are the similarities and differences?
Matthew says His diciples came "privately". We can see why Matthew says this, by comparing Mark's account. Luke doesn't say anything other than "diciples". But Mark identifies them by name. Only four came to ask questions? The others stayed off from the discussion. (You'd think they'd want to know, I know I would. So where were they?)
Q: Why only these four?
My personal belief is that, and you can dispute this if you like, because these four were first chosen and had spent a deal more time following Jesus already, they had the courage to ask. Jesus words were apostacy punishable by death. Anyone listening and believing it would be likewise stoned. My humble understanding of human nature would suggest the others were in fear.
The two-part question about the temple and His return is different in the three versions. Just as we see the difference between the three accounts of who asked the questions as I have discussed, here there's a difference also.
Q: What was the first thing the FOUR diciples were concerned with and why?
We will move to the next part of the question after the first has been exhaustively discussed.
I will start at the beginning with you. No skirting.
According to 1 Peter 3:15
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
15 But hallow ye the Lord Christ in your hearts, and evermore be ye ready to [do] satisfaction to each man asking you reason of that faith and hope that is in you, but with mildness and dread,
I would like to call you out according to the above. I will do my best to obey the same with "mildness and dread"
Your questions are marked as "Q:"
Feel free to comment on my comments.
Do not add things that aren't there.
Compare, question, answer and come to a conclusion.
This is based on the sceintific approach.
No, I don't like 'the church of scientology'. Don't assume.
I will use the version of your choice and correct with tranlation from Greek.
Matthew 24
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
24 And Jesus went out of the temple [And Jesus gone out of the temple, went]; and his disciples came to him, to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 But he answered, and said to them, See ye all these things? Truly I say to you, a stone shall not be left here on one stone, that not it shall be destroyed [Truly I say to you, a stone shall not be left here on a stone, which shall not destroyed].
3 And when he sat on the mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privily, and said [saying], Say to us, when these things shall be, and what token of thy coming, and of the ending of the world.
Mark 13
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
13 And when he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Master, behold[a], what manner stones, and what manner buildings.
2 And Jesus answered, and said to him, Seest thou all these great buildings? there shall not be left a stone on a stone, which shall not be destroyed.[b]
3 And when he sat in the mount of Olives against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him by themselves,
4 Say thou to us, when these things shall be done, and what token shall be [and what sign shall be], when all these things shall begin to be ended.
Luke 21
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
21
5 And when some men said of the temple, that it was appareled with good stones and gifts [that it was adorned with good stones and gifts], he said,
6 These things that ye see, days shall come, in which a stone shall not be left on a stone, which shall not be destroyed.[b]
7 And they asked him, and said [saying], Commander, when shall these things be? and what token shall be, when they shall begin to be done?
================================================================
Ok. We will stop there. Let's not bite off more than we can chew. If you have any objection to the version I use, state it asap. Don't drop back later and excuse.
Establish the discussion, and render it.
1) Jesus is shown the Temple and it's other buildings.
2) Jesus utters the temple prophecy.
3) Jesus and his diciples leave the temple grounds and walk 'a Sabbath's day's journey" (approx. half an hour) to the Mt. of Olives.
4) There's no recorded discussion between Jesus and His disciples during this time. We can only speculate. I won't.
4) Jesus is approached by His diciples and questioned. First, question first. Jerusalem's destruction.
================================================================
We begin. What are the similarities and differences?
Matthew says His diciples came "privately". We can see why Matthew says this, by comparing Mark's account. Luke doesn't say anything other than "diciples". But Mark identifies them by name. Only four came to ask questions? The others stayed off from the discussion. (You'd think they'd want to know, I know I would. So where were they?)
Q: Why only these four?
My personal belief is that, and you can dispute this if you like, because these four were first chosen and had spent a deal more time following Jesus already, they had the courage to ask. Jesus words were apostacy punishable by death. Anyone listening and believing it would be likewise stoned. My humble understanding of human nature would suggest the others were in fear.
The two-part question about the temple and His return is different in the three versions. Just as we see the difference between the three accounts of who asked the questions as I have discussed, here there's a difference also.
Q: What was the first thing the FOUR diciples were concerned with and why?
We will move to the next part of the question after the first has been exhaustively discussed.
Thank for your response, EG, I knew it would be forth coming
... May the Lord give us both understand as we discuss this.1. 1. Jesus did not destroy the temple. Did you literally put the sword to Jesus and slew Him? No, but Yes we all did spiritually. Your are right that Jesus did not literally destroy the temple as He did Sodom and Gomorrah, but Christ did send the Roman army to do the job. Christ will use unbelieving nations to bring judgment upon other nations, Christ does use evil to bring forth His good (Romans 8:28), and this is biblical. Through out biblical history, especially OT, God uses pagan, gentile nations to accomplish His will. To say that God did not will this to happen is to say He is not sovereign over His dominion.
In the parables of the of the planted vineyard and wedding feast, they both go together and are related. if you read them carefully, you see the Father's call for the harvest through His servants (God's people, true prophets, JtB and eventually the Son of God,) and the call for the natural Jew to come to the feast, this call is also made through the Father's servants (the prophets, and also apostles and believers in general). But the natural Jew (Pharasees etc.) reject them and Him and killed them both. What does God do the vinedressers that reject the servants, beat them, and eventually kill the Son? Correctly answered by the disciples in Matt 21:41, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease His vineyard to OTHER (gentiles nations) vinedressers (the church, true Israel) who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus affirms their answer in verse 43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you (fleshly Israel) and given to a nation (1 Peter 2:9) bearing the fruits of it (true Israel, spiritual Israel, the Church). And Jesus never says that the Kingdom will ever be given back to Natural Israel. In the following parable, Jesus says Himself, Matt. 22:7 "But when the king (God) heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out HIS ARMIES, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their CITY (ancient Jerusalem). The Gospel went to the Jews first and for the most part, they rejected Him and found not worthy, then the gospel went to the rest of the world.
Those who receive Christ enter into the wedding feast NOW, spiritually. The Kingdom of heaven has "NOW" aspect and but also a "NOT YET" aspect.
2. 2. Paul refered to this when he said that when the time of the gentile has been completed (the end of the age) that Isreal would be saved. I believe this is the "end of the age" the disciples spoke of. Remember they were under Gentile rule, they were slaves to the roman empire, Remember what they believed, That Jesus was going to come and restore the age of Isreal.
EG, We've been through this before, I will just briefly say Israel does not always mean fleshly Israel, ancient Israel etc. etc. (Romans 9:6-13) There are two Israels, fleshly Israel and spiritual Israel, perfectly illustrated by Paul in several places in Scripture, Gal. 4:21-31. I also believe went Paul says " the fullness of the gentiles" he referring to the Kingdom of God in that the kingdom has and is opened up to them. You keep say this is not a salvation passage, yes, not directly, not a how to be saved passage, but is what happens to us positionally after accepting Christ, for the gentile and for the natural Jew, and in this matter all Israel (spiritual Israel, the whole house of Israel, the house of God) will be saved. Paul is only making a distinction between the two to illustrate barrier has been removed and how the two become 1 in Christ.
Jesus Himself sees this distinction between a Natural Israelite and a spiritual one:
John 1:47
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him and said concerning him, See! Here is an Israelite indeed [a true descendant of Jacob], in whom there is no guile nor deceit nor falsehood nor duplicity! What else would Jesus mean when he said "Here is an Israelite indeed"? Nathanael was already an Israelite by natural descent.
M
Mooky
Guest
Luke 19:13 says to "engage in business till I come" - ie. be busy with Gods work.There is no verse saying that we should go to prophecy conferences and start buying gold and army supplies and geuss the time of His coming.Some christians have made a mistake in this regard.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Originally Posted by Abiding 
do we have to read it all over again?
1. In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. How is this going to happen? Who did it happen by?
all the nations are blessed by the offer of eternal life through Christ, who came from who?? Abraham??
yes
Correct
2. And to you AND YOUR DESCENDANTS after you, I give this land as an ETERNAL covenant.
exactly eternal just like Abraham who looked for it in the eternal state through Christ. Heb 11
Disagree, Abraham was never going to see jerusalem, it would not be possessed by Isreal for another 400 and some years after it was promised. And it did not just concern a city, it was all the land of palestine, as god said "All the land you see" Abraham could not see heaven, finally, no matter what God promises us hear on Earth, our focus should still be on the heavenly, yet it does not take away what God said is ours while here.
To who? all nations? To all peoples? To gentile and jew. Concerning salvation? The answer would be a resounding NO to all of the questions asked.
to the elect only
No, To Isreal Only, even if a Gentile converted, he was not part of the promise made through abraham issac and jacob (unless like some they married into the family)
Why would God do that? I don;t know. why don't ask him. I am not in the place where I would question God as to how he does things.
cute
Cute maybe, but true.
Did you answer yet? Does all Israel mean all? even the children of the flesh?
I answered you already, What did Paul say, All Isreal is those blinded in part, who were cut off, who are our enemy, but to be beloved because of the very covenant we are discussing. In other words, it is a group of people who today have rejected Christ, but at some point will repent and turn to God. If one would remove their blinders while reading romans 11 they would see this. It means they as a nation repent and come to God. it DOES NOT mean god just forgives them because they are isreal. It is as God said in the OT, he removes their blindness, and they FINALLY see truth, repent, turn to God, and confess their sin and the sins of their fathers. How does God do it? The same way he brings many of us to him, tribulation and distress, only this tribulation will be th emost severe the world has ever seen.
Who it is not;
1. Any gentile whatsoever
2. Any of the nation of Israel who die having rejected God and his plan of salvation.
Yes they were cut off. And Paul said they WOULD be put back in, But again, you refuse to see this.
that jab was dishonest im not the one saying people are hardened and going to hell for the last 2000 years till the gentiles to come in. All the believing remnant of Israel has been grafted back in since the beginning
It was dishonest? Paul said those who were our enemy today because they reject the gospel will one day all repent and be saved, And you don;t see it so I call you out on it and I am dishonest?
To the gentiles come in, all Isreal will go to hell? Who said that? Are you listening to a thing I am saying? The time of the gentiles are the 4 gentile kingdoms spoken of to daniel, it has nothing to do with who is saved or not.
They have been grafted back on? Paul is talking about people groups, not individual people from those people groups. Just because Isreal as a people group was cut off does not mean all of them are not saved, Many have been saved, in the time of paul and even today, but this is nOT what paul is talking about.
Oh is this so? So they lived in their land under THEIR KING, they had NO ENEMIES, and lived IN PEACE? oh wait, no they did not know that. You keep saying it was fulfilled, But in order for it to be fulfilled the thing which followed would have to be FULFILLED,
Im saying the fulfillment was partially fulfilled, then through Christ fully fulfilled, although
along with the gentiles(who are children of Abraham and heirs of the promises) await the consumation at the second advent
This is not what Jeremiah said, I cant twist what jeremiah said and make him say something he never said, or take it symbolically. He said they will come;
1 After they repent
2. From all the earth where they were for punishment for their sin
3. Only isreal, not anything to do with gentile believing or not
4. the two kingdoms of isreal, The church is one entity, not two. The church is not slaves of the gentiles because of her sin and rejection of Gods commands,
5. Restored to her land, NOT HEAVEN.
6. Live in peace with no enemy
7. Have a king, who will rule on DAVID's throne, David had an earthly throne, not a heavely one.
You want to get mad at me because I take Jeremiah literally? I am sorry, I have seen nothing which would make me change my mind,
Not to mention. PAUL SAID THEY WILL STILL IN UNBELIEF. I guess it is STILL IN EFFECT would you not say? especiialy since they are to beloved because of the fathers.. why? The promise still stands!
No i dont believe this is still the case. But then Paul also said this promise was not to the children of the flesh...thats what most people are looking for.
lol. Paul saids that concerning salvation. NOT CONCERNING the promise made to the fathers. Your trying to twist the two. The promise of salvation was NEVER TO THE JEW ONLY. Not even in the OT. Jonah was sent to a gentile nation, who he was scared of and did nto think would repent because they were not jew, AND THEY REPENTED! It was NEVER ABOUT SALVATION.
Fulness of the gentiles came as the church?? DO WHAT? who just a few posts ago said that I WOULD SAY the church was the gentile?? wow.. who is backsliding now??
Dont understand this one. The partial hardening was to last until the gentiles came into the church with the full blessings. Others teach this means until every gentile ever finally believes.But the text does not teach this.
The text does nto teach what your saying either, Many gentiles were saved, even in the old covenant, it was not specifically Isreal, it never was. The text is talking about people groups. NOT INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE. The jew in the OT were given the oracles of God and supposed to give it to the gentile to bring them to God, they failed. Now it was taken away, and given to the gentile.
The fullness of the gentile DID Not happen when romans was written. Paul said so.. The gentiles are the four kingdoms, is the final gentile kingdom ended yet? if it did, why are we still here??
I do see i spoke wrong...but yes soon i believe around the time of writing the book of romans and later the fullness of the gentiles was complete. Now the times of the gentiles, your right this hadnt happened yet when romans was written.
It has not happened yet even today, Jerusalem is STILL in Gentile Control. Daniels 4th beast is still in power (although fractured) and will soon be restored greater than it was before, until it is crushed completely by Christ in his return.
lol, Well you continue to believe that. I will believe what the OT states, the fullness of the gentiles will come in WHEN CHRIST DESTROYS THE GENTILE NATIONS, Just like Jeremiah, Daniel and othe prophets said it would!!
I dont believe the fulness of the gentiles was ever mentioned in the OldTestament. I believe your thinking the times of the gentiles.
lol. what do you think fullness means? it means the TIME has been fulfilled. It means complete, Do you think no gentile will be saved after this time? again, you need to stop thinking of what you are taught or read dispys believe, For that matter, even they do not teach only jews will be saved then. The Church is not gentile or jew, it is one all people. and it will not be full until the last person alive before the end is saved.
What age? the church age started at the ressurection of Christ, what age ended in AD 70? Many gentiles were already grafted in by 70 AD, in fact there were more genitle believers than jewish at this time. how would I believe this is the end of the age? talk about going WAY out there>
I believe the church started on the day of Pentecost. The" age" that Israel would
be in"the house that was left desolate in Matthew 23:39; Dan 9:27b with the Old Covenant. Which ended at the stoning of Steven and consumated(Dan 9:27b) in 70ad.
Well we are not even close to agreeing here. The church started when Christ arose, and gave the command to go into the world. The age of the gentile started when Babylon (the first beast) gained world power, and will end when the final beast (rome) is destroyed in the great battle won by Christ,
No you showed me what is promised to ALL PEOPLE. I am promised that kingdom, I am promised that city, I am a gentile. Jerusalem and palestine was NOT PROMISED TO ANY GENTILE. thus YOU CAN't fulfill a promise in that way.
The book of Hebrews teaches all this...The land is Zion..heavenly Jerusalem...why is it written to the Hebrews?
Why?
1. They were trying to go back to law
2. They were still thinking being a jew gave them an automatic trip to heaven.
3. They were still looking to the earthly kingdom not realising this meant absolutely NOTHING if they were not born again, and given access to the heavenly kingdom.
They were just like the pharisees, and the author was trying to correct them. The blood of bull and goat never took away sin, why? it was ALWAYS about Christ. It is not about the earthly kingdom, which Yes God promised, and will fulfill, it is about the heavenly kingdom, which if you do not stop trying to earn your way in by law, you will have no access to.
do we have to read it all over again?
1. In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. How is this going to happen? Who did it happen by?
all the nations are blessed by the offer of eternal life through Christ, who came from who?? Abraham??
yes
Correct
2. And to you AND YOUR DESCENDANTS after you, I give this land as an ETERNAL covenant.
exactly eternal just like Abraham who looked for it in the eternal state through Christ. Heb 11
Disagree, Abraham was never going to see jerusalem, it would not be possessed by Isreal for another 400 and some years after it was promised. And it did not just concern a city, it was all the land of palestine, as god said "All the land you see" Abraham could not see heaven, finally, no matter what God promises us hear on Earth, our focus should still be on the heavenly, yet it does not take away what God said is ours while here.
To who? all nations? To all peoples? To gentile and jew. Concerning salvation? The answer would be a resounding NO to all of the questions asked.
to the elect only
No, To Isreal Only, even if a Gentile converted, he was not part of the promise made through abraham issac and jacob (unless like some they married into the family)
Why would God do that? I don;t know. why don't ask him. I am not in the place where I would question God as to how he does things.
cute
Cute maybe, but true.
Did you answer yet? Does all Israel mean all? even the children of the flesh?
I answered you already, What did Paul say, All Isreal is those blinded in part, who were cut off, who are our enemy, but to be beloved because of the very covenant we are discussing. In other words, it is a group of people who today have rejected Christ, but at some point will repent and turn to God. If one would remove their blinders while reading romans 11 they would see this. It means they as a nation repent and come to God. it DOES NOT mean god just forgives them because they are isreal. It is as God said in the OT, he removes their blindness, and they FINALLY see truth, repent, turn to God, and confess their sin and the sins of their fathers. How does God do it? The same way he brings many of us to him, tribulation and distress, only this tribulation will be th emost severe the world has ever seen.
Who it is not;
1. Any gentile whatsoever
2. Any of the nation of Israel who die having rejected God and his plan of salvation.
Yes they were cut off. And Paul said they WOULD be put back in, But again, you refuse to see this.
that jab was dishonest im not the one saying people are hardened and going to hell for the last 2000 years till the gentiles to come in. All the believing remnant of Israel has been grafted back in since the beginning
It was dishonest? Paul said those who were our enemy today because they reject the gospel will one day all repent and be saved, And you don;t see it so I call you out on it and I am dishonest?
To the gentiles come in, all Isreal will go to hell? Who said that? Are you listening to a thing I am saying? The time of the gentiles are the 4 gentile kingdoms spoken of to daniel, it has nothing to do with who is saved or not.
They have been grafted back on? Paul is talking about people groups, not individual people from those people groups. Just because Isreal as a people group was cut off does not mean all of them are not saved, Many have been saved, in the time of paul and even today, but this is nOT what paul is talking about.
Oh is this so? So they lived in their land under THEIR KING, they had NO ENEMIES, and lived IN PEACE? oh wait, no they did not know that. You keep saying it was fulfilled, But in order for it to be fulfilled the thing which followed would have to be FULFILLED,
Im saying the fulfillment was partially fulfilled, then through Christ fully fulfilled, although
along with the gentiles(who are children of Abraham and heirs of the promises) await the consumation at the second advent
This is not what Jeremiah said, I cant twist what jeremiah said and make him say something he never said, or take it symbolically. He said they will come;
1 After they repent
2. From all the earth where they were for punishment for their sin
3. Only isreal, not anything to do with gentile believing or not
4. the two kingdoms of isreal, The church is one entity, not two. The church is not slaves of the gentiles because of her sin and rejection of Gods commands,
5. Restored to her land, NOT HEAVEN.
6. Live in peace with no enemy
7. Have a king, who will rule on DAVID's throne, David had an earthly throne, not a heavely one.
You want to get mad at me because I take Jeremiah literally? I am sorry, I have seen nothing which would make me change my mind,
Not to mention. PAUL SAID THEY WILL STILL IN UNBELIEF. I guess it is STILL IN EFFECT would you not say? especiialy since they are to beloved because of the fathers.. why? The promise still stands!
No i dont believe this is still the case. But then Paul also said this promise was not to the children of the flesh...thats what most people are looking for.
lol. Paul saids that concerning salvation. NOT CONCERNING the promise made to the fathers. Your trying to twist the two. The promise of salvation was NEVER TO THE JEW ONLY. Not even in the OT. Jonah was sent to a gentile nation, who he was scared of and did nto think would repent because they were not jew, AND THEY REPENTED! It was NEVER ABOUT SALVATION.
Fulness of the gentiles came as the church?? DO WHAT? who just a few posts ago said that I WOULD SAY the church was the gentile?? wow.. who is backsliding now??
Dont understand this one. The partial hardening was to last until the gentiles came into the church with the full blessings. Others teach this means until every gentile ever finally believes.But the text does not teach this.
The text does nto teach what your saying either, Many gentiles were saved, even in the old covenant, it was not specifically Isreal, it never was. The text is talking about people groups. NOT INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE. The jew in the OT were given the oracles of God and supposed to give it to the gentile to bring them to God, they failed. Now it was taken away, and given to the gentile.
The fullness of the gentile DID Not happen when romans was written. Paul said so.. The gentiles are the four kingdoms, is the final gentile kingdom ended yet? if it did, why are we still here??
I do see i spoke wrong...but yes soon i believe around the time of writing the book of romans and later the fullness of the gentiles was complete. Now the times of the gentiles, your right this hadnt happened yet when romans was written.
It has not happened yet even today, Jerusalem is STILL in Gentile Control. Daniels 4th beast is still in power (although fractured) and will soon be restored greater than it was before, until it is crushed completely by Christ in his return.
lol, Well you continue to believe that. I will believe what the OT states, the fullness of the gentiles will come in WHEN CHRIST DESTROYS THE GENTILE NATIONS, Just like Jeremiah, Daniel and othe prophets said it would!!
I dont believe the fulness of the gentiles was ever mentioned in the OldTestament. I believe your thinking the times of the gentiles.
lol. what do you think fullness means? it means the TIME has been fulfilled. It means complete, Do you think no gentile will be saved after this time? again, you need to stop thinking of what you are taught or read dispys believe, For that matter, even they do not teach only jews will be saved then. The Church is not gentile or jew, it is one all people. and it will not be full until the last person alive before the end is saved.
What age? the church age started at the ressurection of Christ, what age ended in AD 70? Many gentiles were already grafted in by 70 AD, in fact there were more genitle believers than jewish at this time. how would I believe this is the end of the age? talk about going WAY out there>
I believe the church started on the day of Pentecost. The" age" that Israel would
be in"the house that was left desolate in Matthew 23:39; Dan 9:27b with the Old Covenant. Which ended at the stoning of Steven and consumated(Dan 9:27b) in 70ad.
Well we are not even close to agreeing here. The church started when Christ arose, and gave the command to go into the world. The age of the gentile started when Babylon (the first beast) gained world power, and will end when the final beast (rome) is destroyed in the great battle won by Christ,
No you showed me what is promised to ALL PEOPLE. I am promised that kingdom, I am promised that city, I am a gentile. Jerusalem and palestine was NOT PROMISED TO ANY GENTILE. thus YOU CAN't fulfill a promise in that way.
The book of Hebrews teaches all this...The land is Zion..heavenly Jerusalem...why is it written to the Hebrews?
Why?
1. They were trying to go back to law
2. They were still thinking being a jew gave them an automatic trip to heaven.
3. They were still looking to the earthly kingdom not realising this meant absolutely NOTHING if they were not born again, and given access to the heavenly kingdom.
They were just like the pharisees, and the author was trying to correct them. The blood of bull and goat never took away sin, why? it was ALWAYS about Christ. It is not about the earthly kingdom, which Yes God promised, and will fulfill, it is about the heavenly kingdom, which if you do not stop trying to earn your way in by law, you will have no access to.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Thank for your response, EG, I knew it would be forth coming
1. 1. Jesus did not destroy the temple. Did you literally put the sword to Jesus and slew Him? No, but Yes we all did spiritually. Your are right that Jesus did not literally destroy the temple as He did Sodom and Gomorrah, but Christ did send the Roman army to do the job. Christ will use unbelieving nations to bring judgment upon other nations, Christ does use evil to bring forth His good (Romans 8:28), and this is biblical. Through out biblical history, especially OT, God uses pagan, gentile nations to accomplish His will. To say that God did not will this to happen is to say He is not sovereign over His dominion.
What does this have to do with the return of Christ?
1. Daniel said the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city, we know this as rome
2. Jesus said when I come back (the return he spoke of in Matt 24) we would see him come as he left, in the clouds, When the disciples were told this as Jesus ascended, they would have then understood (if they did not already) that this is what Jesus meant in matt 24 when he said you will see the son of man coming in the clouds
3. Jesus did not come in the clouds to destroy the city.
conclusion. we can not make the destruction of 70 ad be the fulfiment of the return of Christ.
If we look at what Jesus said concerning his return. What he said when he left, and what the OT say concerning his return to destroy the gentile nations who treated the nation of Isreal poorly, and to restore them to her rightful place AFTER they repent. then nothing you posted here has any bearing, It is NOT about who goes to heaven, never was, never will be. Unless of course you think whoever endures to the end will be saved means what those we are speaking to think it means, and only those who endure and do righteous deeds will get to heaven, neither of us believe this. so this must be talking a future time, and not speaking of spiritual life, but physical life. And if it is speaking of physical life, then it must be a time of great tribulation where there is a great risk of men ALL over the world being killed, And their physical life should be spared for some reason, If it is the final end where God stops time on this earth, then saying they will be spared makes no sens, because all life on this earth ceases to excist, and eternity begins. Who would care if they lived or not? and why would Jesus want those who are here at that time to endure till the end?
Yeah we have been through this befor. You are speaking of spiritual life, Of those who get to heaven. Of eternity, and not the promises made to people here on this earth.
In romans 9 this is what Paul was speaking of. In romans 11, he was NOT SPEAKING OF THIS. he was speaking of Isreal vs gentile. and warning us gentiles not to be so proud of our newfound place on earth, for God will restor it to isreal, even though now they have rejected him.