End times madness w Matt. 24 Part 1

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How do time and eternity interact? Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. But that’s the wrong picture. What we need to imagine is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this view in mind, we can see how God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time, like randomly inserted spokes.

What happens in one realm reflects in the other. What we do here and now reflects in the Spiritual, and what happens in the Spiritual reflects in the here and now. The two interact much like the light caught between two facing mirrors. What happens in one reflects in the other then back to the first and returning again and again in an endlessly diminishing chain.

This time-reflective relationship is what's behind history repeating itself, and God being the same now and forever. And it's what's behind prophecies being fulfilled both past and future. For example, prophecy was that Jerusalem would be sacked. Reality is it has been many times, fulfilling the prophecies. But the truth is, it will be again, ever more so than ever before. The prophecy, though fulfilled, remains valid because God's word is eternal.

And so a true prophesy from God echoes not only in our past, but today and in our future as well. And it will see their ultimate and final fulfilling only when He returns in the end.

***
Here's a challenge. Every time you come across a scripture that you feel is not valid in our age and time, rip that page out and dispose of it. If it doesn't do you any good it may as well not be in there, right?
 
Abiding. I quite aptly made my "point" and the question(s) very clear. You are evasive. I'm calling it like I see it.

It's looking more an more, to me, that you are similar to so many other 'believers' I've heard from.

People want to believe that earthquakes are 'hope in a bottle'. When their faith wanes, they look to the news channel for an infusion. They see starvation in Africa and they see Jesus. They hear the talk of war, they see Jesus. They love to hear about earthquakes. Their 'faith hairs' stand up on the back of their necks. "Jesus is coming, Jesus is coming!

It's been this way for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Thousands!!

Where's Jesus?

Oh... He's coming. I beleive that. But I settle for "no man know's the day or the hour" and when I hear about suffering, I get on the Red Cross website and reach out to my 'brothers' in whatever manner I can. Just hoping that Jesus views my heart as good and say 'go here to my right hand'. And I am not sure of my salvation. I am sure I will want to ask "when did I?" Because I don't really know what will suffice.

But I don't need earthquakes to sooth my life fears. Yes, I want Jesus to come back. Badly. I have pain. I am not well. I am getting older. Family members are quite sickly. My own mother has just passed. Even she wanted to see 'the Lord's return' but did not.

Personal experience. There's a man, his name is Mark. I've known him a long time. 'Christian'.... yep. So he says.

I met met up on the morning of September 12, 2001. You remember what day that was? He was positively 'popping'..!!

He said to me with a smile on his face and remarked happily "I wonder how many died?"

Yep. He was pleased. Why, because he saw "JESUS coming ..." when those three buildings collapsed.

Funny thing, I knew how he would react even before I ran into him that day. I expected it.

How happy he'd be. And he was not alone. I ran into over a dozen other "Christains" (denomination witheld) that day, and they were all likewise positively exuberant. Churches were filled!

I even had an online chat with a guy in Florida. He gave me his number. I called him. He was convinced it was 'the end' and he had to join the church fully that he was brought up in. He had sudden need of salvation.

I told him, no. It's not the end. I went on that the families would bury there dead. There would be litigation. The site would be cleaned up. There would be memorials. The insurance companies would pay out. New buildings would go up. Life would go on.

But there was no convincing him. He had the "earthquakes' in his blood now. No going back.

Me. I gave to several charities, did some overtime at work. I prayed for the families.

I put money in my son's registered education fund for university (he's well along now and my investment tripled so I paid for nothing so far) Thankyou God.

I did like the "wise virgins" and prepared a 'jar of oil' for my lamp knowing I might have to spend more time letting my light shine before the Lord returns.

But you seem satisfied with 'earthquakes'... like the myriads who have lived and died before you.

Oh sure. We have the "heads up". Sure, thousands of years in advance. "cause we know that earthquakes mean Jesus. Suffering too. That's Jesus.

I have lot's to do. I am busy not being "decieved" by those things as Jesus told me.

Life goes on. Maybe we will talk more in 20 years.

If you are still around.
 
I don't really have a clue why this came to me but I was compelled to write it... I don't even go to church...I'd appreciate being left alone. thanks.

Oh, so you expect us to receive your revelation, but are too good to receive something from anyone else.

Nothing against you personally, but red flags go up for me because of your attitude and the fact you don't obey God regarding "The Gathering of the Beleivers." Therefore I think your revelation is suspect.
 
Here's a challenge. Every time you come across a scripture that you feel is not valid in our age and time, rip that page out and dispose of it. If it doesn't do you any good it may as well not be in there, right?

No, that is not right. Just because something we think pertains to the past, doesn't mean we can gleam all the applications and insight of the event(s) for present application and future hope, expectation and imagination/speculation-Left Behind series.

There many things that didn't happen over and over as you claim. The literal Genesis flood for one. The northern Kingdom of Israel was lost and scatter among the nations, never to come back as God economy or "special" nation reserved for God. The substance of the OT symbols, types, and shadows all came to fulfilled in Christ, there is no need to go back, and to do so would be to trample of the Blood of Christ.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”


8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Doesn't sound like a revolving wheel to me. And one more thing before I get off my soup box

The Scriptures Opened


44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”



When were they endued with the power from on high to leave Jerusalem, right before the destruction of Jerusalem. Why you still tarry there?
 
Abiding. I quite aptly made my "point" and the question(s) very clear. You are evasive. I'm calling it like I see it.

It's looking more an more, to me, that you are similar to so many other 'believers' I've heard from.

People want to believe that earthquakes are 'hope in a bottle'. When their faith wanes, they look to the news channel for an infusion. They see starvation in Africa and they see Jesus. They hear the talk of war, they see Jesus. They love to hear about earthquakes. Their 'faith hairs' stand up on the back of their necks. "Jesus is coming, Jesus is coming!

It's been this way for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Thousands!!

Where's Jesus?

Oh... He's coming. I beleive that. But I settle for "no man know's the day or the hour" and when I hear about suffering, I get on the Red Cross website and reach out to my 'brothers' in whatever manner I can. Just hoping that Jesus views my heart as good and say 'go here to my right hand'. And I am not sure of my salvation. I am sure I will want to ask "when did I?" Because I don't really know what will suffice.

But I don't need earthquakes to sooth my life fears. Yes, I want Jesus to come back. Badly. I have pain. I am not well. I am getting older. Family members are quite sickly. My own mother has just passed. Even she wanted to see 'the Lord's return' but did not.

Personal experience. There's a man, his name is Mark. I've known him a long time. 'Christian'.... yep. So he says.

I met met up on the morning of September 12, 2001. You remember what day that was? He was positively 'popping'..!!

He said to me with a smile on his face and remarked happily "I wonder how many died?"

Yep. He was pleased. Why, because he saw "JESUS coming ..." when those three buildings collapsed.

Funny thing, I knew how he would react even before I ran into him that day. I expected it.

How happy he'd be. And he was not alone. I ran into over a dozen other "Christains" (denomination witheld) that day, and they were all likewise positively exuberant. Churches were filled!

I even had an online chat with a guy in Florida. He gave me his number. I called him. He was convinced it was 'the end' and he had to join the church fully that he was brought up in. He had sudden need of salvation.

I told him, no. It's not the end. I went on that the families would bury there dead. There would be litigation. The site would be cleaned up. There would be memorials. The insurance companies would pay out. New buildings would go up. Life would go on.

But there was no convincing him. He had the "earthquakes' in his blood now. No going back.

Me. I gave to several charities, did some overtime at work. I prayed for the families.

I put money in my son's registered education fund for university (he's well along now and my investment tripled so I paid for nothing so far) Thankyou God.

I did like the "wise virgins" and prepared a 'jar of oil' for my lamp knowing I might have to spend more time letting my light shine before the Lord returns.

But you seem satisfied with 'earthquakes'... like the myriads who have lived and died before you.

Oh sure. We have the "heads up". Sure, thousands of years in advance. "cause we know that earthquakes mean Jesus. Suffering too. That's Jesus.

I have lot's to do. I am busy not being "decieved" by those things as Jesus told me.

Life goes on. Maybe we will talk more in 20 years.

If you are still around.

apocalypse, your right, im being evasive:p pretty good at it huh?
actually its because you were leading me...didnt care for that.

Now your fitting me into a category in your head..ie :seem satisfied with" earthquakes"...like the...:rolleyes:
Remember i have answered your questions...just may not have commented on your speculations enuf for ya

In this last post you wrote, i do commend you for responding to calamities with charity, and
living for a future. Rather than jumping for joy at them as a futurist would. But not all futurists
respond that way.

My position on Matthew 24 is that it had a fulfillment in 70ad. Theres good orthodox teaching that
says theres a break at verse 36. I dont see it. But im seldom right.

Some say itll have a double fulfillment. I dont think so. Although i see political movement on earth
that is using that for a giant hoax...and i have no idea if God will let them progress or not.

If what your saying in all this, is that people go nuts with endtime stuff, even with a mangled
theology. Id agree. I think thats what the op is about.

If not make clearer statements...honestly i havnt seen a point clear enuf to respond. But
im enjoying the chat.:cool:
 
Abiding.

I made a post a few days ago. You were one of two that responded. The first person's response was, sorry, useless. Your's was the second. You said you would keep out of it.

That document summarizes my beliefs. In a nutshell. It's the Olivet Discourse in plain English. I don't suppose you agree. But I did wonder if you actually took the time to read that version of it.

Links can't be posted. No point, you didn't read it the first time.

You say it was all said and done in 70AD. And for the most part, I'd agree. In fact, that version of the events points out the 70AD fulfillment.

The discussion of false prophet-induced fears of wars and calamity and "fearful sights from heaven" (solar eclipses and meteor showers for starters which induced tremendous fear in ancient people) were all things applying to the 70AD. Mt. 24:4-8 Luke 21:8-11

Not today's world.

Sure, that stuff happens today and always has. That's the point Jesus was making when he said not to be fearful. It's to be expected, but had no meaning in relation to the Christians and their flight from Jerusalem, and has even less meaning today.

I'm sure it drove some Christians back then mad with fear and I suppose they could have left too early, prior to the Roman Army undermining the Temple wall and giving the true "sign" for immediate departure from Jerusalem.

In any event, you said you don't want to speculate. But indeed you've done lots of it.

Speculate some more please.

Q: How did Matthew 24:27,28 find it's fulfillment in 70AD? The "coming of the Son of Man" as bright lightening in the sky.

Q: How did Matthew 24:29-33 get fulfilled in 70AD? The luminaries being darkened, "all the peoples of the whole Earth beating themselves".

Q: How did Matthew 24:31 get fulfilled? The gathering of the "chosen" earthwide.

Did I wasted my time posting this. Am I correct in my thinking that I think already know how you will respond. Or shoud I say "not" respond?

Jesus addressed both questions put to him in the order they were asked. But prior to answering them, He WARNED them about false prophets of doom.

Matthew 24 KJ
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. [false alarm]

And those verses were for the Generation that saw 70AD. It has nothing to do with the second coming.

Let's see how you evede this.
 
No, that is not right. Just because something we think pertains to the past, doesn't mean we can gleam all the applications and insight of the event(s) for present application and future hope, expectation and imagination/speculation-Left Behind series.

There many things that didn't happen over and over as you claim. The literal Genesis flood for one. The northern Kingdom of Israel was lost and scatter among the nations, never to come back as God economy or "special" nation reserved for God. The substance of the OT symbols, types, and shadows all came to fulfilled in Christ, there is no need to go back, and to do so would be to trample of the Blood of Christ.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”


8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Doesn't sound like a revolving wheel to me. And one more thing before I get off my soup box

The Scriptures Opened


44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”



When were they endued with the power from on high to leave Jerusalem, right before the destruction of Jerusalem. Why you still tarry there?

Another thing: when i realized alot of Revelation had been fulfilled i then noticed it contained so
much praise and worship in it even maybe more than alot of the epistles. And alot of valuable
warnings and truths that i rushed by and didnt notice as a futurists.
 
Abiding.

I made a post a few days ago. You were one of two that responded. The first person's response was, sorry, useless. Your's was the second. You said you would keep out of it.

That document summarizes my beliefs. In a nutshell. It's the Olivet Discourse in plain English. I don't suppose you agree. But I did wonder if you actually took the time to read that version of it.
I didnt necessarily disagree with that document...but it said little.
And so did you...so what was there to even to respond to until you started to make your point
and started to ask question...as now i see you finally started to do..


Links can't be posted. No point, you didn't read it the first time.

You say it was all said and done in 70AD. And for the most part, I'd agree. In fact, that version of the events points out the 70AD fulfillment.

The discussion of false prophet-induced fears of wars and calamity and "fearful sights from heaven" (solar eclipses and meteor showers for starters which induced tremendous fear in ancient people) were all things applying to the 70AD. Mt. 24:4-8 Luke 21:8-11
I think so..at this time, yes

Not today's world. No i dont believe it applies to us.

Sure, that stuff happens today and always has. That's the point Jesus was making when he said not to be fearful. It's to be expected, but had no meaning in relation to the Christians and their flight from Jerusalem, and has even less meaning today.Oh i think it did. Had very much to do with the early church, their lives depended on it.

I'm sure it drove some Christians back then mad with fear and I suppose they could have left too early, prior to the Roman Army undermining the Temple wall and giving the true "sign" for immediate departure from Jerusalem.exactly

In any event, you said you don't want to speculate. But indeed you've done lots of it.
Its not that i wont speculate, ever...i spose in the process of learning a starting point would be called speculating just like as a gold digger is. But i dont teach speculations...or debate them. Understand
what im saying?


Speculate some more please.

Q: How did Matthew 24:27,28 find it's fulfillment in 70AD? The "coming of the Son of Man" as bright lightening in the sky.

vrs.27 makes me think of this:
Ps 144:6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.
The city was hit hard and suddenly. nearly a million and a half were slaughtered and eaten
by scavengers...The disciples knew this judgement language, when a judgement from God
was being explained.


vrs.28..makes me think of this
33“The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. 34“Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin.OR]


Q: How did Matthew 24:29-33 get fulfilled in 70AD? The luminaries being darkened, "all the peoples of the whole Earth beating themselves".show me that first.

vrs29:...Jer 4:4:23,28 no light, heavens dark...judgement on Babylon.
Isa 13:1 6-13 -stars of heaven and constellations will not flash forth their light, sun; judgement on Babylon
The cosmology didnt really happen this is judgement language..the constellations are referring to Israel(joseph dream).

30: Tribes(Israel had tribes, we dont) will mourn. Remember the religious leaders wanted a sign?
Well they got it. With power and great glory. A sign is different than a physical appearance.
The scoffers Peter talked about that didnt believe He was coming in Judgement were surprised.
But God in His mercy gave them time to repent.
Isa 19:1-Lord riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt. judgement talk again, not literal.zeph 1:14

31:Angel=messenger gathering elect from four winds..most likely the great commision..Paul said by that time He had preached to the end of the world col 1:23 f ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.
"The word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" (Col. 1: 5, 6).
Fulfilling vrs 14.…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. (Rom. 1:8) I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.” (Rom. 10:18)thats just a few verses.In otherwards
the Lord guided His People by messengers to safety




Q: How did Matthew 24:31 get fulfilled? The gathering of the "chosen" earthwide.
The chosen were the church and the earthwide thing i showed verses above..i can provide more to show what the bible means when it says world or the whole earth. Im most cases it means the area around Israel.
How it happenned is just like He said..by messengers..John in revelation and the other Apostles.


Did I wasted my time posting this. Am I correct in my thinking that I think already know how you will respond. Or shoud I say "not" respond?
Well up intil now if any one was wasting time it was you. Thinking will not tell
you how i will respond unless your bent on presuming things.


Jesus addressed both questions put to him in the order they were asked. But prior to answering them, He WARNED them about false prophets of doom.
two questions? ok then they must be...1 what signs? 2 When.

Matthew 24 KJ
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. [false alarm]

And those verses were for the Generation that saw 70AD. It has nothing to do with the second coming. Exactly...and hey will you please stop the insults.

Let's see how you evede this.
I evaded you from trying to lead me and set me up..just common courtesy..ok? Ill answer anything if i have the time
and am asked clearly.


So carry on...we could have a nice dialogue here :cool:
................................................
 
Oh, so you expect us to receive your revelation, but are too good to receive something from anyone else.

Nothing against you personally, but red flags go up for me because of your attitude and the fact you don't obey God regarding "The Gathering of the Beleivers." Therefore I think your revelation is suspect.

Gabriel is with me, that is the message. Your heart will decide if you take heed. I was protected from the church, it's not safe..I'm learning rapidly now. We all are, in our own way. Search your soul for truth. When the true Chrism is received then we will know each other as it was.
 
do we have to read it all over again?

1. In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. How is this going to happen? Who did it happen by?

all the nations are blessed by the offer of eternal life through Christ, who came from who?? Abraham??

2. And to you AND YOUR DESCENDANTS after you, I give this land as an ETERNAL covenant.

And the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, To your seed will I give this land: and there built he an altar to the LORD, who appeared to him. Genesis 12:7


God gave the promises to Abraham and his child. And notice that the Scripture doesn't say "to his children," as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says "to his child"--and that, of course, means Christ. - Galatians 3:16 NLT


Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16 EVS


Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. Galatians 3:16 NLT NASB






"....Significantly, because each of the other Genesis texts that refers to the “seed” as mediator of blessing
are ambiguous syntactically according to Collins’s rules (Gen 26:4; 28:14; cf. 12:3; 18:18), it is possible that these too should be understood as pointing to an individual.30

Regardless, the three texts just mentioned appear to set a trajectory for other biblical authors who interpret these Genesis “seed” texts as referring to a single, Messianic deliverer (e.g., Gen 49:8, 10; Num 24:17–19; 2 Sam 7:12–13; Ps 72:4, 9, 17; Luke 1:68–79; Acts 3:25–26; Gal 3:8, 13–14). Because James M. Hamilton Jr. has already provided a thorough overview of these passages, minimal comment is necessary here.31

Building off the Davidic promises in 2 Sam 7:12–13, Psalm 72 applies to Israel’s king both the promise of an enemy-destroying offspring (Ps 72:4; cf. Gen 3:15 and 22:17b) and the promise of a blessing-mediating offspring (Ps 72:17; cf. Gen 22:18)32 : “May [the king] defend the cause of the poor of the people … and crush the oppressor! … May people be blessed in him, and all nations call him blessed!” The background of the promises in
Gen 3:15 and 22:17b–18 is unmistakable.

Luke highlighted this same connection with direct reference to Jesus, when he recorded Zechariah’s prophecy in Luke 1:68–79: “[God] raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies … to remember the his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to our father Abraham … [and] to guide our feet into the way of peace” (Luke
1:69–71, 73, 79). What is striking here is that God’s work of deliverance and salvation through the Davidic Messiah was specifically related to “the oath that he swore to … Abraham.”

This link is further highlighted in Acts 3:25–26, where Peter declared, “You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning everyone of you from your wickedness.”

Jesus is here clearly identified with the “offspring” through whom blessing would come...."


Christ or Family as the “Seed” of Promise? An Evaluation of N. T. Wright on Galatians 3:16
Jason S. DeRouchie and Jason C. Meyer
 
2. And to you AND YOUR DESCENDANTS after you, I give this land as an ETERNAL covenant.

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. - Gal 3:16
 
"And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, ‘By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.’" Genesis 22:15-18 ESV

The word for seed is zera which is singular in Hebrew. This could either be a true singular where only one person is in view, or it can be viewed as a collective singular referring either to a specific line of the descendants of a person, or to all of a person’s sons and their descendants after them. For example, zera in the case of Abraham could refer either to Isaac and/or his seed after him, or it could refer to all of Abraham’s sons and their subsequent descendants as well, i.e. Ishmaelites, Edomites, Midianites, Israelites etc. The question which we will seek to answer is whether zera refers in this case to one specific line or to several different lines which stem from Abraham.

In the first place, we need to note that Paul wasn’t the first one to understand the Hebrew word zera to refer to a specific son, to a specific seed of Abraham’s. The Jewish translators of the Hebrew Bible into the Greek, known as the Septuagint (LXX), had already understood zera in this precise manner:

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast hearkened to my voice." Genesis 22:18 LXX

kai eneuloghqhsontai en tw spermati sou panta ta eqnh ths ghs anq¢ wn uphkousas ths emhs fwnhs

Note the use of the singular seed (spermati) as opposed to the plural here. When we examine God’s promise to Abraham the reader will be able to see why the singular was used
:

"Now the LORD said to Abram, ‘Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and BY YOU all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.’" Genesis 12:1-3
Answering Islam
 
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. - Gal 3:16

Um God did not promise Christ the land of canaan. you should rethink what you say. He did not even promise them they would get the land only because of christ, he said it wads theres

the only thing promised through christ was salvation, In you shall all the nations be blessed.
 
ABIDING

Quote me:
"In any event, you said you don't want to speculate. But indeed you've done lots of it."

Quote you:
"Its not that i wont speculate, ever...i spose in the process of learning a starting point would be called speculating just like as a gold digger is. But i dont teach speculations...or debate them. Understand
what im saying?"

Do I understand? ... oh boy do I. The above has a name. It's usually referred to as semantics. But we can just call them word games.

As if there's a difference. "A rose by any other name..."
You can fill in the rest.

We all "teach", by word and deed. We don't ever stop. A parent knows this. Children learn from everything we say and do.

Only a politician would try to say different as they practice immoral behavior and say it's won't affect their public office.

OK Bill Clinton.

You are a preterist of variance. All that stuff you posted is nonsense. A bunch of disjointed verse cherrypicked to appear as if relevant.

There's a myriad sites with unlimited information, much of which is from ex-preterist people who finally recognized the nonsense for what it is.

So, I could cut and paste from some books. Would it matter?

I am a tradesman. I'll let you guess which.

I had a man on a job once who insisted he knew the code better than I. So, I said fine. Give me $55.00 for the inspectors fee. When the inspector comes and tells you it's wrong, then your $55.00 goes to pay his fee, because he has to come back again.

And it'll have to be rewired according to what I told you. On your lunch and breaks.

If you're right, then you get your $55.00 back and I will take you out for a steak dinner and you can tell me more.

The fella hesitated. I asked, "you mean you're not sure"...

He straighened up. Gave me three $20's

The inspector came and went.

I gave the guy his $5.00 change and I went for lunch alone.

Another guy once told me all about how something worked. So I offered to do an experiment to prove him right or wrong.

He had to hold a metal piece while I flipped a switch. He looked pretty nervous while I reached for the switch. I offered him to perhaps "review" his thinking. He did. He was wise.

One more heartbeat, and I'd have flipped that switch right up.

He'd have been on his knees. Now he wouldn't have gotten enough joules to stop his heart, but it would have taught him a good lesson.

He knows that now.

Why I tell you these stories? Because each one of us must bear his own load. In life, we all have to 'put our money where our mouth is'...

I hope you're ready friend.
 
Um God did not promise Christ the land of canaan. you should rethink what you say. He did not even promise them they would get the land only because of christ, he said it wads theres

the only thing promised through christ was salvation, In you shall all the nations be blessed.

I do not mean to offend, I hope you will feel the same way.
Will you take the time to read the following and see if you might understand that absolutely everything in the Bible is about Jesus.

It is written about Him.

Paul is discussing a lot in Galatians, but he covers the Promises, plural, and applies ALL the Promises (no matter the Covenant) to the Beneficiary, Jesus. The Promises of the Testament (Will), are only for those who will inherit what is in it.

The New Testament changes terms in the greek; the "Land" promise becomes a universal term

Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. - Galatians 3:15 NASB




"When a man writes his last will and testament, he puts within that will his wishes as to what is to be done with his estate. Among other things, he specifies who are to be the beneficiaries. He is under no obligation to include them in the will, and the inheritance is not compensation for what the beneficiaries have done. The fact, nevertheless, is that if they are named in this will, then they are to receive the inheritance.

Paul notes here that even in the case of a human will, once it has been confirmed or validated, the terms therein cannot be altered. After the death of the testator, its instructions must be carried out in every detail. The implication is that the testament of God, who is infinitely more trustworthy than man, is all the more dependable and unchangeable. Paul sets this up as an illustration of why the Mosaic law must not be interpreted as an annulment or alteration of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant.

The point is that nothing which came after this legal arrangement with Abraham would change the original covenant that God made with him. Both the Gentile Christians in Galatia along with the Judaizers would have understood this illustration. They would have concluded that the blessing, which was given to Abraham by God, was received by Abraham by faith as he believed in the promises of God.

This "irrevocable trust agreement" that God made with Abraham is described in terms of the beneficiary of the trust (v. 16), the date of the trust (v. 17), and the condition for inheritance (v. 18).

Our study of these terms of the Abrahamic covenant will enable us to appreciate the gracious, unconditional nature of God's love for us.

The Beneficiary of the Trust

Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Now, as to the promises given to Abraham, the Judaizers would argue that they were only given to Israel since they were the seed or descendants of Abraham. Therefore, since Abraham was later instructed by God to be circumcised, along with his family, the Judaizers' reasoning was that to be a true Christian, who has accepted the Messiah who came through the Jews, everyone must be circumcised to lock in their salvation.

Following that line of argument, Paul says, "God specified in His will that the beneficiaries were to be Abraham and his seed." The apostle calls particular attention to the word "seed," as distinguished from "seeds." And that singular seed that God had in Christ, not all the blood descendants of Abraham....

...Paul is saying that the primary recipients of the Abrahamic covenant were Abraham and Christ. This, of course, would include all who are in Christ - believers. This promise is not realized in the Jews, but Christians.

...Genesis 15:18 (NASB) On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

By quoting the specific geographic boundaries that Abram's descendants will inherit, God makes it plain that Abraham's physical descendants will reap the benefit of this covenant. Israel will inherit real land. But their inheritance of the land was only a type....

...We have to realize that Paul's definition of seed contradicts the Jewish nationalistic interpretation of this term. Jews were convinced that the term seed referred to the physical descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people. Therefore, they believed it was absolutely necessary to belong to the Jewish nation in order to receive the blessings promised to Abraham.

Paul is just as exclusive as his Jewish counterparts, but his exclusivity is not based on ethnic identity. Since Christ is the heir of the promises, all those, and only those, who are in Christ by faith are beneficiaries of the irrevocable trust agreement God made with Abraham:

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise - Galatians 3:29

When God established the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 12 and then expanded upon it in Genesis 15 and 17, what was Abraham thinking? What did he understand? What sort of fulfillment was Abraham looking forward to when he was given the word of promise concerning the land? What did he expect? Did he look for an earthly fulfillment? Did Abraham just see the type or did he see past the type to the anti-type? According to God's Word in the book of Hebrews, Abraham was looking past the type to the anti-type, he was looking for a heavenly city:

By faith he [Abraham] lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. - Hebrews 11:9-10

By faith he dwelt in the land of promise. By faith in God's promise of a heavenly city he lived as a pilgrim on the earth. He knew the earth wasn't his home, so he never tried to make it his home. The city Abraham was looking for was the heavenly Jerusalem. The writer relates:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, - Hebrews 12:22-23

From these verses we can see the different description of the same entity; the city, the kingdom, the heavenly Jerusalem, the church, and Mount Zion. These all have their fulfillment in the New Covenant as established in the first century. This was in contrast to the old, physical, earthly city of Jerusalem."
Berean Bible Church



With all due respect, I'm afraid you are making the same mistake the 1st Century Jews made - not understanding that the Land Promise was a temporary type only.



"The Date of the Trust

What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. - Galatians 3:17

So 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant was given, an additional arrangement was instituted by God. This time God made an agreement, not a promise, with Israel. This agreement demanded certain responsibilities of each party to the agreement. There were consequences involved, and each side had to uphold its part. But that agreement was made at a much later time than the promise, that was given to Abraham, thus it could have no effect on that promise. The promise and the agreement cannot be mixed together with one another, because they accomplish different results. Thus, the fact that the Law came later cannot invalidate the great, life-giving promise that was given originally. That is the argument of these verses.

The Mosiac covenant does not invalidate the Abrahamic covenant - God's promises in the Abrahamic covenant still stand.

The Condition for Inheritance

For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. Galatians 3:18

"The Law" here is a reference to the Mosaic covenant. This was not a promise, but an agreement:

'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; Exodus 19:5

Have God's promises to Abraham been fully fulfilled? Those theologians who are yet looking for a golden age for national Israel do not think so. But Paul makes it abundantly clear that the promised descendant of Abraham is Christ. And it is through Christ, through faith in His subsitutional death that people from all nations will be blessed."
Berean Bible Church




Again, with all due respect, Peter, who was Jewish, never said Jews or anyone else should look for, or would receive anything other than this:

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:13

Peter even connects it to the Promise. Why didn't Peter say, "in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a restored Judea, Jerusalem and inheriting the Land in the Middle East" He didn't say anything like that, though he should have is what you believe is true.
 
Sorry for the strange colorizing that didn't appear. I couldn't change it, it said only 5 minutes to make changes.
 
ABIDING

Quote me:
"In any event, you said you don't want to speculate. But indeed you've done lots of it."

Quote you:
"Its not that i wont speculate, ever...i spose in the process of learning a starting point would be called speculating just like as a gold digger is. But i dont teach speculations...or debate them. Understand
what im saying?"

Do I understand? ... oh boy do I. The above has a name. It's usually referred to as semantics. But we can just call them word games.

As if there's a difference. "A rose by any other name..."
You can fill in the rest.

We all "teach", by word and deed. We don't ever stop. A parent knows this. Children learn from everything we say and do.

Only a politician would try to say different as they practice immoral behavior and say it's won't affect their public office.

OK Bill Clinton.

You are a preterist of variance. All that stuff you posted is nonsense. A bunch of disjointed verse cherrypicked to appear as if relevant.

There's a myriad sites with unlimited information, much of which is from ex-preterist people who finally recognized the nonsense for what it is.

So, I could cut and paste from some books. Would it matter?

I am a tradesman. I'll let you guess which.

I had a man on a job once who insisted he knew the code better than I. So, I said fine. Give me $55.00 for the inspectors fee. When the inspector comes and tells you it's wrong, then your $55.00 goes to pay his fee, because he has to come back again.

And it'll have to be rewired according to what I told you. On your lunch and breaks.

If you're right, then you get your $55.00 back and I will take you out for a steak dinner and you can tell me more.

The fella hesitated. I asked, "you mean you're not sure"...

He straighened up. Gave me three $20's

The inspector came and went.

I gave the guy his $5.00 change and I went for lunch alone.

Another guy once told me all about how something worked. So I offered to do an experiment to prove him right or wrong.

He had to hold a metal piece while I flipped a switch. He looked pretty nervous while I reached for the switch. I offered him to perhaps "review" his thinking. He did. He was wise.

One more heartbeat, and I'd have flipped that switch right up.

He'd have been on his knees. Now he wouldn't have gotten enough joules to stop his heart, but it would have taught him a good lesson.

He knows that now.

Why I tell you these stories? Because each one of us must bear his own load. In life, we all have to 'put our money where our mouth is'...

I hope you're ready friend.

See? I told you you were baiting me. Unless its just for forum attention, get on with it.
I hold no firm eschatological position as yet. Im more than a little convinced which views
I dont hold. But other than that, im not firmly convinced enough to hold onto wires so
you can flip the switch.

Semantics and speculation. I dont see them even close as a term.
To me speculation is merely a guess, with nearly no support.
Semantics is how you express something. Anyway again i miss your point.

My opinion here is that your coming along presuming things about me and
telling me im evasive, when in fact this is actually what your doing...why all
the theatrics? Oh well i have the time to wait it out and see. I hope i learn
something here. Really i do!
 
Sorry for the strange colorizing that didn't appear. I couldn't change it, it said only 5 minutes to make changes.

Ha happens to me too, im a slowpoke marianna.
Yes Jesus told them right off that being from their father Abraham
did them no good. Paul made it clear what a true Jew and a true Israelite
was in Romans and in Galations didnt he say the unbelievers were Ishmaelites
basically? by allegory?

IF..the children are not true Israel..how could they lay hold of any promise to
Abraham...thats what confuses me about all this.

I am told the covenants break away into groups....salvation to the elect(true Israel)
and land to the nonelect (unbelievers)...but i cant see that in the bible. Can you?
 
Um God did not promise Christ the land of canaan. you should rethink what you say. He did not even promise them they would get the land only because of christ, he said it wads theres

the only thing promised through christ was salvation, In you shall all the nations be blessed.

Why would Paul say the natural are not the children of God? That only those who believe are the children of Abraham?

Why would God be today in favor of the Land in Israel being taken by people who Paul said are not His children?



Romans 9:8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Galatians 3:7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
 
Ha happens to me too, im a slowpoke marianna.
Yes Jesus told them right off that being from their father Abraham
did them no good. Paul made it clear what a true Jew and a true Israelite
was in Romans and in Galations didnt he say the unbelievers were Ishmaelites
basically? by allegory?

IF..the children are not true Israel..how could they lay hold of any promise to
Abraham...thats what confuses me about all this.

I am told the covenants break away into groups....salvation to the elect(true Israel)
and land to the nonelect (unbelievers)...but i cant see that in the bible. Can you?

Hello Abiding,
No, I don't see that at all in the Bible. Just the opposite.
I read through all of the Land promises and they were all conditional.
Even if Pauls' allegory of the two Covenants (the Old being gone, leaving people in bondage) wasn't included I don't understand how God is Just supposedly working for people Jesus said did not have Abraham for their father.

Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from them (upon His resurrection, since He went to Israel only, just as Promised) and given to others - Paul and Barnabas said they shook their garments and were going to the gentiles.

I read your post about Peter's eschatology and it makes it so much clearer still.
marianna
(I won't try to use any colors this time).
 
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