Can someone lose their salvation?

[cfultz3]

.............

I should have defined the first time 'grief' as being stubborn to His tilling (His leading to perfection by producing appropriate herbs meant from that person). As I have said, I do not mind explaining my self, because I know that not everything can be explained in one response and that words have different meanings and that posters often assume people read their posts and thus know what they are talking about without having to be explained.

So, to explain myself, one who resists the change the Spirit is guiding him on, but instead, produces thorns and biers of a wasteland, the Spirit will at one point, ay His discretion, will say that that person does not really want to leave his life of rebellion, and respecting his freewill, will leave. So, this is grieving the Spirit to the point of rejection.

I also understand what you mean by not particually defining grief and can see how that can be misleading. But, in my defense, I am only human who is acceptable of correction, but never condemnation.

 

[cfultz3]

Did the verse say he can not continue in habitual sin? -- This one.1John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ok, I am in agreement to this. But what about freewill to leave, inasmuch as it was in freewill that we, in the first place, choose to beleive in God? Further, inasmuch as the angels have freewill to choose and by such will, some abandoned their Heavenly estate. I really do not know why some would choose to leave, but, the angels' abandonment should give us the understanding that, yes, we can abandon God, though He will never abandon us.

 

[Bookends]

it's such a false teaching to THINK that someone can't turn from their sin more than once, they can't make mistakes and then come back to Christ. Hey, as long as someone is alive they can REPENT. Now, sinning willfully requires a lot of repenting so one has to decide IF they really want to do it and their works get burned up too. ,if they die in a 'prodigal' state of lukewarm behavior. Or, wait, God spits you OUT for being 'neither hot nor cold...hmm, and, so,yeah, that's a GRAY salvation area but, this is not...

...as if one leaves the Holy Spirit after having abided in Him , or, partake of His blessed leading of their life, , and, this is not rocket science, Christ peeps, it's Hebrews 6:4-6, that person can NOT come back to God, can NOT come to repentance. This is the denial of the Holy Spirit, it surely IS grieving the Holy Spirit, because , like me now tellingyou all my utter faith in His leading my life (silly abiding, eternallygrateful, booksends, you thinking I command my own faith. Ha, ha, ha, lol, NO! THE EXACT OPPOSITE ! He leads me, I can't put my life into words for you of His leading but trust Me, He lives in me!!

His Word is CLEAR, you are persecuting Him when you deny His teachings, worse yet, you become a false teacher. You deny His Word when you say things like, 'You have to look at other Scripture cuz Hebrews 6:4-6 is only one Truth verse of leaVing your salvation a distinct real happening for one genuinely having faith and into having received (partook is a grafting word, is it not?) the Holy Spirit and then left Him and followed worldly ways, assuming to they will bad mouth Him too


Yes, this is not an attitude of taking your 'fruit,' bookends. It is my being led to speak the Truth, I am.going to follow Him all of my days, not your words, not eg's x not mari's , right, He is our counselor, who we, learn all Truth. , not , even rein's although her wisdom from Him is dynamically and giftedly outlayed for us all. cfultz too .

So listening to eg say that those who are just not knowing they can't lose their salvation cuz ya can't be snatched from God, or, that if you left the faith you were never saved in the first place, or, any other doctrine that is antiChrist, to me, I just give it to God, He reigns, His Word to me, Holy Spirit outlayed, overrides ALL human response, however, God, indeed, DOES use others to teach me in His Truths, because Scripture is so complex IF He wants to keep its simplicity from me. The Lord leads, my job is simple, as I just said, don't worry about anyone else , what they think, 'just speak from Me, green, I am.in you, and, I am greater than those who persecute you through the principalities of evil out there in the world.'

And, I know, it's wild , that some guy can be marionetted in their life , accepting God's Spirited grace and mercy as He leads me as I step. Notice the 'active' act of that last part? '...as He leads me as I step.' Read Proverbs 16:9. This should tell you quite quickly how the Lord, ultimately, leads my life. I can go my own way, but His way will, ultimately, be the way I go, for He has the plans, not me, IF I follow Him, call myself a believer of Him and seek Him, which is by following His Holy Spirit, and, living perfectly , as I fan strive, with Jesus' life on earth my blueprint for speaking constantly with the Holy Spirit as I do life.

Now, be very careful in your spinning cfultz' words into unTruth, and, thinking we who follow the Holy Spirit as we do , with persecuting words, we are NOT phatasees, eg, that is not judging righteosly, don't do it, don't insinuate that because I partake of the sweet Holy Spirit leading my life that I am full of faith of myself, bookends, abider, mari. Don't do it.
Warning from God: Wrath will result from petsecurting those who believe in Christ different than you. Speak your piece of your can't be snatched and they were never His in the first place., with Scripture, like I told eg that those in 1 John 2:19 who were never saved in first place were ANTICHRISTS . A bit different person type than , say, for instance, umm, believers. Why can't you just speak your points without persecuting others? Better learn ,or, God days those who can't teach in GENTLENESS and with Love are NOT doing the work of the Lord,of Him. yeah, I know, scary thought, huh ?

What do you think the parable of the prodigal son is all about. Your words condemn me. The Holy Spirit woes me to Him and your words tell me to forget it- that I'm lost. I'm not going to post on this tread again, because I'm sure you guys are in collusion revive this tread over and over. You offer no hope the believer or struggling believer. No hope in your words. And noone here is talking about willfull sinning once they come to a greater understanding.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One who accuses others of false accusations of what they do or do not believe, and then turns and accuses others of having faith in themselves and doubt the promises of God because they say we are responsible for our own deeds and are held accountable for them, and then go as far as implying they will go to hell is no better than the accuser of the brethren who reversely smirks at the suppose ignorance of others and than praise God they are saved while those fools will die forevermore.

Whats false? read what you write. Your saying we are required to obey and not be sinners to be saved. what does this say? this says it is up to us and our work. which means our faith has to be in how well can do what you claim we have to do.

If our faith is in Christ, and his work, it is based on him,

The fact is, Anytime you use the word "I" when it comes to salvation. your telling the world what your faith is in. Even if you can not see it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did the verse say he can not continue in habitual sin? -- This one.1John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ok, I am in agreement to this. But what about freewill to leave, inasmuch as it was in freewill that we, in the first place, choose to beleive in God? Further, inasmuch as the angels have freewill to choose and by such will, some abandoned their Heavenly estate. I really do not know why some would choose to leave, but, the angels' abandonment should give us the understanding that, yes, we can abandon God, though He will never abandon us.

The passage says they can not. That we KEEP OUR SELF from falling into sin, How, Because we are born of the spirit, and the spirit lives in us, so we can;t sin. God is the one who said it. Why argue with God. If God says we can't, then we can't, there should be no question.

 

[cfultz3]

The passage says they can not. That we KEEP OUR SELF from falling into sin, How, Because we are born of the spirit, and the spirit lives in us, so we can;t sin. God is the one who said it. Why argue with God. If God says we can't, then we can't, there should be no question.

God has also given us Hebrews. So, we as Christians should seek together to find harmony. I understand from study that a brother can wander (sin) into a sin (offence) which is not unto death (1 Jn 5:16). I also understand that if any one does sin (wander), then we do have an advocate with the Father (1 Jn 2:1).

So, how do we as fellow Christians reconcile this supposed contradicition in Scripture which is found in the same book of 1 John (3:9)? Shall we learn from each other, or shall we continue down the path of accusing others of being in disagreement with God in defiance of what is said in Scripture?

We all admit that we as Christians do sin (wander). We all admit that we will not be perfect until the transformation because we are still in the flesh. We all admit that the one who says they are without sin is a liar. So, either 1 Jn 3:9 means that we are perfect now or it means that we do not habitually sin. Who of us can maintain perfect obedience to God's will? I know only of One, whose name was Jesus. To me, this understanding of not living in habitual sin is more in harmony to the rest of Scripture and does not make the Spirit through John sound contradictive to the rest of what John says.

Can we learn together?

 

[cfultz3]

Whats false? read what you write. Your saying we are required to obey and not be sinners to be saved. what does this say? this says it is up to us and our work. which means our faith has to be in how well can do what you claim we have to do.

If our faith is in Christ, and his work, it is based on him,

The fact is, Anytime you use the word "I" when it comes to salvation. your telling the world what your faith is in. Even if you can not see it

Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered. If our Lord in the flesh learned obedience to God's will to leave us an example to follow, then, by all means, the example our Lord left us in His temptations will be the means by which one is to learn that same obedience.

If it is our Lord who says, 'Not my will, but your will', then in that same obedience I learn obedience. If it is our Lord who says, 'If you love me, then follow my commandments and you are my servant', then I will obey Him. But note that if He is my Lord, then I am already in possession of salvation. And if I do not obey His commandments, what then? Do I love Him? Am I His servant still?

His works gave us justification. His righteousness is not imputed as our righteousness, but by His righteousness we received justification.

Does not, 'Not my will, but your will' spoken by Jesus also mean, 'I will not do my will, but I will do your will Father'. Are we to say that Jesus was telling the world what His faith was in? ABSOLUTELY. His faith was in God in fulfilling the promises He made and by His obedience, He received ALL which was promised Him. But what if Jesus kneeled to Satan, would He not have forfeited all for the sake of the flesh?

Come and let us reason together and let us stop the finger pointing. Are we not of the same family? Will we accuse one another still in God's Kingdom?

 

[ReinItIn]

Rom 5:1,2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Heb 4:14-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

How can we Hold such High regard for the knowledge of His work in Heb 4:14-16 but, disregard the IF's in His Warning against regression in Hebrews 6, His exhortations to Godliness and his Warning against deliberate sin in Hebrews 10. Why would we not encourage all into believing the tests and trials we endure are Gods work to build our character? His finished work is character, obedience and Holiness and our faith in his grace should not fall short of it. How can we believe only in His power to save and not believe in his power to change. Isn't the new life the transformed life? Isn't the new life in us what receives Salvation?

Same with Romans 5.. How can we disregard The new life in Christ Romans 6, The evidence you Have received The Holy Spirit in romans 8. How can we hold back and only give people a message in part when we need to hear it all to have faith to believe it all and receive it all romans10. How can we claim the glory with out the groaning and frustrations of labor for new life in Romans 8?

 

[ReinItIn]

I may have a different experience because of my work. But, i have seen many that considered themselves the forsaken by God and man, the lowest of worms. By faith in his grace, their effort and their commitment to believing he is able to give them new life, new hope and change them. They no longer hide in darkness with hope in a far away God. They walk with God in clear conscience because he has done what he has promised and redeemed their lives from the pit. But they had to have faith in his power to change them. faith that is faith is acted on.

 

[ReinItIn]

It is not enough to know it, we have to believe in Him.. We act on the Words of the One we believe in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God has also given us Hebrews. So, we as Christians should seek together to find harmony.

What harmony? Hebrews is speaking to Hebrew believers attempting to return to law. and place themselves back under the rules and regulations aspect of the old covenant. That gods salvation is based on our merit, not on the grace of God. If we look at Hebrews in this context. it does not contradict what John said. In fact you are doing the very thing Hebrews spoke again, the only difference is your not going back to animal sacrifice. But your gospel is the same.

I understand from study that a brother can wander (sin) into a sin (offence) which is not unto death (1 Jn 5:16). I also understand that if any one does sin (wander), then we do have an advocate with the Father (1 Jn 2:1).

The death spoken of there is physical death. If a man see his brother commit a sin which is not unto death. How can we see a brother sin a sin (singular) which leads to spiritual death or loss of salvation? we can;t see that. so it is not talking about losing salvation. What if you see your brother who had a BAD life experience, instead of relying on God have a weak moment, and drink. Then drive his car? If he makes it without killing himself , then he has committed a sin which did not lead to death, that is the context of that passage.

So, how do we as fellow Christians reconcile this supposed contradicition in Scripture which is found in the same book of 1 John (3:9)? Shall we learn from each other, or shall we continue down the path of accusing others of being in disagreement with God in defiance of what is said in Scripture?

There is no contradiction. the only contradiction is in your misguided belief one can lose salvation. Neither hebrews or John speaks of this as fact. It is your misinterpretation of Hebrews which causes the contradiction. Scripture can not contradict. We must interpret scripture which makes it be in harmony. Saying hebrews teaches one can fall away and lose out contradicts John which says we can not fall away.

1. By denying Christ (an antichrist) for if we leave we were never of the church to begin with
2. By sin, because a child of God can not continue in sin because he has the spirit of God in him

Both trains of thought as to how one can lose salvation is DESTROYED by the apostle John. so we must interpret other passages that may APPEAR to contradict what John said in a way it does not contradict him.

Again. John said we can't That means no other place can say we can.

We all admit that we as Christians do sin (wander). We all admit that we will not be perfect until the transformation because we are still in the flesh. We all admit that the one who says they are without sin is a liar. So, either 1 Jn 3:9 means that we are perfect now or it means that we do not habitually sin. Who of us can maintain perfect obedience to God's will? I know only of One, whose name was Jesus. To me, this understanding of not living in habitual sin is more in harmony to the rest of Scripture and does not make the Spirit through John sound contradictive to the rest of what John says.

Can we learn together?

Can we? John said we can not live in habitual sin, if we can't do this, then how can we lose salvation by living in sin?

james said faith without works is dead. We can all agree that a person who claims to be saved and we see no change in life that person probably is not saved. where the problem comes in is when we use this to prove that one MUST WORK in order to gain salvation, and failure to do this work (whatever the belief system says that work may be) will result in a loss, or failure to attain salvation.

 

[ReinItIn]

Habitual sin and sinners.. Do we forget Christ overcame flesh and was obedient in all things? Who is in us working? unless he is not in us.. This is no shame to examine your self and find he is not their.. It is to your Glory to know you must seek him and keep seeking him till you will find him in you.. To walk without him yet confess him is a great tragedy for man.

 

[Abiding]

Hebrews 6 being specifically given to the Hebrews that were defecting back to judaism
is hardly a text to us. Because there is little understanding(of those using it) of the audience it was given
to and the historical background, this, has offered some its use to handle(wrongly) for general purpose.

There are plenty of other warnings in the scripture more fitting for the cause.

People who believe in discipling folks helping them grow in the grace and knowledge and the
exceeding great and precious promices...teach the whole council of God where they can
learn the if/thens and the warnings also. As well as how to walk in grace.

To hear you are being told stop the fear mongering gives you no indication or
reason to presume that person in their life and ministry are leaving out anything from scripture. Its nice as
far as its use to make the other look wrong, aside from that its simply a false charge.

2 major problems in this thread you can pretty much expect to get attacked...so
to help those who need to get ready to "wrongly" tell your self you are getting attacked for truth.


1 talk about losing salvation. Have a couple obscure misunderstood verses in your arsonal with
alot of emotional rhetoric and stories to go along with it. Make it personal..and get social support

2 dont define salvation or use scripture. That would be counterproductive. if you have to use scripture
dont use the context...that will always mess you up.

3 If all else fails..just make up a name...like "you just have head knowledge"..and i have the Spirit.
or..another good one ...ok you have your grace and all that sin...enjoy your sin...bud!!

I have many more tips if anyone wants them just PM me.

,

 

[Grandpa]

I should have defined the first time 'grief' as being stubborn to His tilling (His leading to perfection by producing appropriate herbs meant from that person). As I have said, I do not mind explaining my self, because I know that not everything can be explained in one response and that words have different meanings and that posters often assume people read their posts and thus know what they are talking about without having to be explained.

So, to explain myself, one who resists the change the Spirit is guiding him on, but instead, produces thorns and biers of a wasteland, the Spirit will at one point, ay His discretion, will say that that person does not really want to leave his life of rebellion, and respecting his freewill, will leave. So, this is grieving the Spirit to the point of rejection.

This sounds like just more doubt, unbelief. Our whole walk is by faith and you have faith in all the wrong things. Namely the power of men. Here is the one you should be looking to;

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered. If our Lord in the flesh learned obedience to God's will to leave us an example to follow, then, by all means, the example our Lord left us in His temptations will be the means by which one is to learn that same obedience.

I agree, but Jesus did not do it to be saved, he did it because he trusted his father. Should we as Christians do the same? How can we learn to trust God when we have to fear if we do not do everything the way he says God will yank his gift from us? There is nothing but fear. you do not trust people you fear. you learn to resent them. especially when you realize you can't live up to the standard you believe he is giving? And if we really get down to it and REALLY learn who and what God is, We can only come to the conclusion his standard (the law) is unattainable.

If it is our Lord who says, 'Not my will, but your will', then in that same obedience I learn obedience. If it is our Lord who says, 'If you love me, then follow my commandments and you are my servant', then I will obey Him. But note that if He is my Lord, then I am already in possession of salvation. And if I do not obey His commandments, what then? Do I love Him? Am I His servant still?

It depends on how you look at it.
1. Can you do what God demands? be perfect? No. If you can't be perfect, then how can you claim you are good enough to earn salvation because that would be what it demands.
2. If we can't live in sin, as John said, then how can we get to the point where we can lose salvation by living in sin?

the point is. what are we saved from? The ability to not sin, or the penalty of sin? what is salvation? Scripture states he gives us the ability to not sin, but we can not be perfect because our flesh remains in us. So if we were not saved by doing the very thing which condemns us, then the only thing left is he removed the penalty of the very things we do. So if the penalty of sin is removed. how can it be re-imposed? If it can be re-imposed. we are not saved are we?

His works gave us justification. His righteousness is not imputed as our righteousness, but by His righteousness we received justification.

His righteousness is imputed to us, thus when God sees us, he does nto see our sin, he sees his son. That is what salvation is

Does not, 'Not my will, but your will' spoken by Jesus also mean, 'I will not do my will, but I will do your will Father'. Are we to say that Jesus was telling the world what His faith was in? ABSOLUTELY. His faith was in God in fulfilling the promises He made and by His obedience, He received ALL which was promised Him. But what if Jesus kneeled to Satan, would He not have forfeited all for the sake of the flesh?

Can you do his will perfect? if you can not (which you agreed you can't) then how can you ever be saved by being good enough??

Come and let us reason together and let us stop the finger pointing. Are we not of the same family? Will we accuse one another still in God's Kingdom?

Lets work together so you see what I am saying. and not the false things people accuse me of saying

 

[ReinItIn]

abiding,

pick any letter to any of the churches or any of the Gospels.. i will show you the Christs Work, our instructions, His promises and our warnings.. it is all in everyone..

 

[Abiding]

Im pondering how many stumble...i meet them alot..who have been
told when they slip they can never be restored(heb). Some live
fruitless lives for quite a spell.

And its more than hard to convince them the truth of scriptures
and get them back on their feet. The Lord will always bring a repentant
heart to His wayward. But people need to examine thier teachings.
And make sure they are gathering and not scattering.

 

[Abiding]

abiding,

pick any letter to any of the churches or any of the Gospels.. i will show you the Christs Work, our instructions, His promises and our warnings.. it is all in everyone..

What is your point ReinItIn...please make a point...then we can dialogue.
I see what you saying and i do not disagree...but you must have a point im not seeing.

 

[cfultz3]

Hebrews 6 being specifically given to the Hebrews that were defecting back to judaism
is hardly a text to us. Because there is little understanding(of those using it) of the audience it was given
to and the historical background, this, has offered some its use to handle(wrongly) for general purpose.

Defecting back from the path they were being led on by the Spirit to whatever was contrary to what was being taught, is the moral of the story. We cannot go back to that which we have been delivered from.

 

[ReinItIn]

Whoever tells people they can not be restored has not read every Word either. that is the danger of building doctrines on verses. As long as we have breath we have hope for His LIFE.. When we fall it is because of pride. We start thinking His Work has something to do with our own strength to walk in His WAY to produce His fruits.. Just like He had Israel pile up stones to remember.. When we stumble and fall or slip it is to remind us apart from Him we have nothing but Flesh and flesh is unable to please God and unable to inherit Gods kingdom, the failures Teach us to remain in him so he can finish his WORKS. So we Go back to that which we have believed in the beginning before arrogance blinded us to the TRUTH.

Paul tells us to Remember these times of suffering to help us remain in him to build Character.