Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love.

[RickShafer]

Can't you see Ozell, the happenings in the O.T. are material representations of spiritual realities?
(Spiritual realities in the New Testament?)
Can't you see the difference?
Your error is the same one the pharisees made.
They were looking for a literal kingdom being set up by the Messiah.
So when Jesus came to set up a heavenly kingdom through faith by grace, they had Him killed.
But their crude and callous misinterpretation of the scriptures only fulfilled the very same words of God.
"My words are Spirit, and they are life; the flesh profits nothing."

 

[RickShafer]

Ozell said - I don't think I proved anything because you don know the story of Esau
What I do know is this
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You proved plenty Ozell.

 

[ozell]

Where was God's love for those that died in the flood, Sodom, when israel built the golden calf or judgement day?

Something is missing when God drowned and burned babies, pregnant women, the lame, handicapped , old men and women . What happen to the Love from God?

Maybe there is an idol on your minds saying this cant be

Well it is

 

[RickShafer]

Where was God's love for those that died in the flood, Sodom, when israel built the golden calf or judgement day?

Something is missing when God drowned and burned babies, pregnant women, the lame, handicapped , old men and women . What happen to the Love from God?

Maybe there is an idol on your minds saying this cant be

Well it is

Those things happened to people who rejected God and followed their own ways.
You say that as if God is not loving because He ended whole societies who murdered innocent souls.
You have no concept of justice.
If God didn't requite the blood those evil nations shed back on their own heads, He wouldn't
be loving. Because He would have let all the innocent lives those people murdered be unaccounted for.
- - - - And yes, that included their babies because they had killed those other innocent people's babies.
Can't you understand that?
Does that make God evil, or the opposite of love?????
NO! It makes God holy and just.

 

[RickShafer]

The unconditional love is for the innocent.
That is what makes the New Testament different from the Old.
Because those who trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ
are considered innocent.
That is why no true christian murders, or rapes, or supports the termination of innocent life. - (Hello Cementakent)

 

[RickShafer]

Ozell,
It is not conditional love that the guilty of the shedding of innocent blood are killed.
It is justice.

 

[Red33]

The unconditional love is for the innocent.
That is what makes the New Testament different from the Old.
Because those who trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ
are considered innocent.
That is why no true christian murders, or rapes, or supports the termination of innocent life. - (Hello Cementakent)

What kind of love did the Lord demonstrated to Paul (Saul) on the road to Damascus, who was carrying out his commission to threaten and slaughter innocent Christians who believed in Christ as the Messiah? Was there any unconditional love involved in giving him grace through calling him and sending him to the Gentiles with the gospel? Was Paul killing Christians, YES or NO? The answer is YES either through commission or commendation and the law forbid such an act and being under the law he should have been put to death but instead he was commissioned to break the law. These were believing Jews that were slaughtered who also had been given the law. God spared Paul through mercy because He loved him unconditionally by grace and purposed to use him for a specific calling in a specific dispensation of grace and the church. Imagine that a murderer was used to write under inspiration a large portion of the NT. Go figure!

 

[RickShafer]

Yea Red, God had a plan for Paul.
I was answering Ozell, who claims God's justice is not love.
B.T.W. - Paul wasn't saved when he had those christians cast into prison.
And Jesus had to appear to his face to get his attention.
And Paul thought he was doing the work of YHWH.
He wasn't offering babies to baal for crops to grow.
I see a major difference.
He wasn't going around in the name of YHWH, living in opulence or hypocritically
sleeping with women.....in other words; as wrong as he was, in his mind and his body he
thought he was serving YHWH.
I see a major difference in his mistaken heart and say, ........that of a false prophet.
(The kind Elijah had killed)

 

[Blain]

wow i haven't been on this thread in forever hoping that this issue would resolve it's self. doesn't a trure christian know god? I know that when i accepted god i fell in love with him,I know who he is and that one day god will pierce my heart with his love and mine to his and our love will bleed into the heavens and universe. If someone says god isn't a god of love have they really been saved? Do they really know god? and doesn't god show many time in the bible how he loves us? and isn't the bible a love letter to us? Being a christian isn't about following the laws of the bible it's about our relationship with god. If we know of god's love and we love him then we naturaly follow his commands because we want to make him happy

 

[RickShafer]

Blain,
People think love is holiness.
Or they think God's love is a 'get out of jail free' card.
Either way they are wrong.
If Lucifer can't get you one way he gets you the other.
Unless you follow the still, small voice.............
which he can't touch.

 

[webchatter]

The old testament is full of laws & the 10 commandments. The New testament has commandments too. We are not under the old law, but the new.

 

[Crossfire]

While God's love is unconditional (*see John 3:16, 1 John 4:19), salvation is not. While it is the grace of God which draws a sinner unto Himself, one can not receive the gift of salvation until he or she fully understands their need for a Savior and, in faith, positions themselves in humility to receive God's gift through repentance.

If salvation were unconditional, then Christ & the cross were not necessary. God could have easily snapped His fingers and said "the sins of this world are now forgiven".

 

[RickShafer]

'positions themselves in humility to receive God's gift through repentance.'

I still say this is grace. Because who gives you the humility to decide?
What omnipotent power holds the reigns of the heart?
I still say there is no place for us to stake a claim in our own salvation.
Lest any man should boast. It's all by His grace.
It is by grace that one knows salvation through their own doing is wrong.
It is also by grace that one realizes the serious nature of sin and God's forgiveness.



"If salvation were unconditional, then Christ & the cross were not necessary. God could have easily snapped His fingers and said "the sins of this world are now forgiven".

Salvation is not unconditional, God's love is.
Salvation is conditioned on the perfect life and obedient death of Jesus Christ.
God's love is unconditional in that, while we were sinners; He made it happen.
God's love is never conditional. That's why He had to destroy the earth the first time,(for the innocent's sake);
and while have to destroy it again for the same reason.

 

[Crossfire]

'positions themselves in humility to receive God's gift through repentance.'

I still say this is grace. Because who gives you the humility to decide?
What omnipotent power holds the reigns of the heart?
I still say there is no place for us to stake a claim in our own salvation.
Lest any man should boast. It's all by His grace.
It is by grace that one knows salvation through their own doing is wrong.
It is also by grace that one realizes the serious nature of sin and God's forgiveness.



"If salvation were unconditional, then Christ & the cross were not necessary. God could have easily snapped His fingers and said "the sins of this world are now forgiven".

Salvation is not unconditional, God's love is.
Salvation is conditioned on the perfect life and obedient death of Jesus Christ.
God's love is unconditional in that, while we were sinners; He made it happen.
God's love is never conditional. That's why He had to destroy the earth the first time,(for the innocent's sake);
and while have to destroy it again for the same reason.

I'm in total agreement. Both Faith & Grace are gifts from God. Repentance is not the work of man but rather man's response to the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Red33]

Yea Red, God had a plan for Paul.
I was answering Ozell, who claims God's justice is not love.
B.T.W. - Paul wasn't saved when he had those christians cast into prison.
And Jesus had to appear to his face to get his attention.
And Paul thought he was doing the work of YHWH.
He wasn't offering babies to baal for crops to grow.
I see a major difference.
He wasn't going around in the name of YHWH, living in opulence or hypocritically
sleeping with women.....in other words; as wrong as he was, in his mind and his body he
thought he was serving YHWH.
I see a major difference in his mistaken heart and say, ........that of a false prophet.
(The kind Elijah had killed)

Saul (Paul) had the law of Moses and knew what it said better than most Pharisees. Did he take the law that said, 'Thou shalt do no murder' and just ignore it for the sake of exterminating Jewish Christians? These were mostly Jews, his own people, that he was having slaughtered who believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah that had come and been crucified. He had no excuse for being blinded in his zeal and was never lead by God to do any of it no matter what commission he had received. Was the activity of Saul before his conversion an offense to God against His children that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ? I think so and I think the thorn in the flesh and demon that constantly buffeted him had something to do with that, that God would not take away from him so that he would have to learn to receive grace. Woe to whom these offenses come! There was a woe against him before he was struck down on the road to Damascus.

His heart was deceitful and desperately wicked as were all the disciples and apostles until they received a new life from above. God showed mercy upon Paul and when God called him many of the believers were afraid of him because of what he had done to their brothers. The only reason that he lived was because of mercy and grace, other than that he deserved to die and go to his grave in unbelief as a lost dead man living in self oriented deception through the zeal of the law, which later became a downfall for him when he went to Jerusalem but was warned twice not to go by the Holy Spirit through other disciples and through a prophet. I see a great amount of unconditional love and grace directed to Paul personally so that he could function in his call from God.

 

[Red33]

'positions themselves in humility to receive God's gift through repentance.'

I still say this is grace. Because who gives you the humility to decide?
What omnipotent power holds the reigns of the heart?
I still say there is no place for us to stake a claim in our own salvation.
Lest any man should boast. It's all by His grace.
It is by grace that one knows salvation through their own doing is wrong.
It is also by grace that one realizes the serious nature of sin and God's forgiveness.



"If salvation were unconditional, then Christ & the cross were not necessary. God could have easily snapped His fingers and said "the sins of this world are now forgiven".

Salvation is not unconditional, God's love is.
Salvation is conditioned on the perfect life and obedient death of Jesus Christ.
God's love is unconditional in that, while we were sinners; He made it happen.
God's love is never conditional. That's why He had to destroy the earth the first time,(for the innocent's sake);
and while have to destroy it again for the same reason.

Every single thing we receive from God is received through faith as grace and not through repentance. Even repentance is granted to the believer through faith because of the goodness of God. Don't ever think that repentance originates from the sinner or from a person despite their sin. Repentance is granted by God and you can't even seek it out as careful as you may try with sincerity through tears and sorrow. Just ask Esau, he was never able to.

Salvation is unconditional to all that believe upon the Son. You don't believe, you don't get salvation, but if you do believe no matter who you are or what you have done, God will cleanse you of all sin and save you forever. There is no partiality with God when it comes to what the Son made available through the sacrifice of His own life. You guys keep fighting against this, STOP FIGHTING IT!!!!!!!!!!! ACCEPT IT AND WALK IN IT AND GO ON BY FAITH IN WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN AND LET OTHERS DO THE SAME!!!!!!!!

 

[RickShafer]

Repentance is a gift.
Without repentance it is impossible to please God.
The repentance is a gift.
You say "by faith through grace and not repentance"?
How is that possible?
How can you have faith unless you repent?
And how can you change your ways unless God acts on your heart?
The evidences of repentance are plain.
Namely, a humble and lowly spirit.
You can't just claim you have repented.
What is this, a Billy Graham crusade? - Repeat after me and you are saved?
Repentance is the first act of a heart that has been broken by God.
There is NO faith without repentance, and their is NO repentance without grace.
The whole of the work is God's.
But not because one CLAIMS it!
Anyone can say they are saved by grace through faith.
The newest version of the pharisees claim that!
"Oh. I can do anything because "I'm saved....and once saved always saved"
Notice how Paul no longer delivered up people to the magistrates?
(And even before he didn't personally brutalize them); in that you are wrong.
A change of heart ALWAYS follows repentance or else it's like getting an inspection sticker for your car.
Just SO much self delusion.

 

[Blain]

Repentance is a gift.
Without repentance it is impossible to please God.
The repentance is a gift.
You say "by faith through grace and not repentance"?
How is that possible?
How can you have faith unless you repent?
And how can you change your ways unless God acts on your heart?
The evidences of repentance are plain.
Namely, a humble and lowly spirit.
You can't just claim you have repented.
What is this, a Billy Graham crusade? - Repeat after me and you are saved?
Repentance is the first act of a heart that has been broken by God.
There is NO faith without repentance, and their is NO repentance without grace.
The whole of the work is God's.
But not because one CLAIMS it!
Anyone can say they are saved by grace through faith.
The newest version of the pharisees claim that!
"Oh. I can do anything because "I'm saved....and once saved always saved"
Notice how Paul no longer delivered up people to the magistrates?
(And even before he didn't personally brutalize them); in that you are wrong.
A change of heart ALWAYS follows repentance or else it's like getting an inspection sticker for your car.
Just SO much self delusion.

Anything we obtain in our faith is from god i agree with rick here. it's not like you can just say i have been saved because i repented but in your heart you didn't. Honestly i have met people here who claim to be christians but say things against the bible. Like this thread for one, saying god is a god of conditional love is nothing less than slapping Jesus in the face and calling him a lier to everything he taught. God is a god of love, grace, peace and when need be wrath. I have warned on this thread before be careful what you say about god it may not end well

 

[Crossfire]

I posted the following in another thread but I feel it is relevant to the current conversation:

According to a variety of scripture, you can not have one (faith or grace) without the other. They are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate the two.

However, the two are distinct from one another. One major distinction being that faith always demands a response. Repentance being an example of such.

With that being said, I hold to the position that repentance is an act (result) of faith.

 

[Blain]

Ok i was very angry about how false doctrines like this thread made someone resent god and think he was sitting up there just waiting to strike. I knew this would happen eventually but i have calmed down. i just am wondering, what was the point of this thread? was it to prove a point, or to help people or what?