C
Crossfire
Guest
I wouldn't categorize false faith with real faith but I do see your point and am inclined to agree.
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I wouldn't categorize false faith with real faith but I do see your point and am inclined to agree.
C
Crossfire
Guest
Why would one pray if not for faith that God will hear them? Why would one give joyfully without faith that God will provide for them? Why would one spend time in worship without faith that God will draw near to them?
As I stated, authentic faith demands a response.
It is both at the same time isn't it? While we are realizing we are being forgiven, we are having fellowship with God. We are forgiven before we start having fellowship with Him, we just don't know it.
Men know in their heart that they can't come before God because they are sinners. It takes a lot to overcome this fear, this knowledge. Thank God for His Love for us. Jesus Christ is our intercessor. Only He can convince us that we are actually forgiven. This is His Grace.
By focusing on sin and its power you inadvertantly add to the knowledge of fear and destruction. There is only one way to overcome this and it is not of ourselves. It is a gift from the Lord Jesus Christ.
We can't be free from the bondage of sin until we know we are forgiven. We can't know we are forgiven until we come to Him and He shows us.
You've already stated that faith and grace are gifts from the Lord. Surely forgiveness is too.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
Forgiveness is not a gift, it's a given
It's a given, "IF we confess our sins He is faithful (He is ALWAYS faithful, Scripture states)
and just to forgive us our sins ...."
This cleansing is 'grace.' And, of course, it is forgiveness, too. But only one is given to us for forgiveness, and, it is not grace. That was done nearly 2000 years ago on an old, rugged cross.
Therefore, grace is not given unto us for our asking forgiveness, grampsK, THAT was a 'given' gave ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME after Jesus died on The Cross, having shed The Blood.
Forgiveness is something given and the fruit ofvour doing this act IS God's grace shewed , and, before you were asking forgiveness for whatever wrong committed, God was displaying mercy, sometimes, great mercy, because God is Love and knows our hearts and does discipline His own but His compassion is 'great' too
When the sinner believes upon Christ and the cross, he is instantly cleansed and forgiven of all sin. He is reconciled to God and being placed in Christ he has a perfect standing before the Father. If he sins, (God forbid) he has an advocate, Christ, who pleads his case before the Father. The sin does not change his standing in Christ but it does effect his fellowship with the Father and the Son and with members of Christ's body. Sin separates the believer from fellowship but not from his relationship and standing he has with the Father. Sin does not take the believer out from his place and position IN CHRIST (locative of sphere), nor does it nullified what God has done to make him righteous.
If we sin we confess our sin openly to the Father as a believer/priest so that we can be restored in our fellowship and be an active partaker of the grace of God through the communion of the Holy Spirit. Confession is acknowledging our sin because of the conviction we have in our heart. We must always remain sensitive to this so that our heart does not get hardened through sin. If our heart gets hardened God has to smash it and break it up so that we can receive grace and have our fellowship restored and that can be very grievous and a difficulty. God's plan will never allow us to be comfortable with our sin because of the fellowship He desires to have with us.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
yes, and, forgiveness is a lifelong process, it will come up agian and again and again.... ONLY your pride will keep you haughty.
When is comes to growing in Christ, grace should never be separated from truth. We are to grow in grace and knowledge of a person, Christ. We were saved through the work of Christ and salvation came by grace to those who believe. Grace is what saves us and it came through the vehicle of faith. The blood cleanses the soul of man and puts away His sins, including cleansing the conscience the moment they believe, as it did with all of us who have believed.
We need to be taught the word of God and doctrine on a daily basis to fill up the rooms of our soul. We continually fill up the rooms of our soul and fellowship with others, so that the Holy Spirit can have a tremendous source of divine wealth to lead us and quicken us in the will of God while we walk in the way with Him. We have a divine responsibility to build ourselves up in the most holy faith and allow the Holy Spirit through the plan of God to transform us through the renewing and quickening of our mind.
Every believer needs specific doctrine from the word to deal with specifics in the details of life. We need the mind of Christ operating in us through the word and doctrine so that we can walk by faith in the promises of God. If we are going to be a light in the world, the light of God and His word needs to shine unto them to reveal the glorious gospel. This is not only elementary but what is needful for those rivers of living waters to flow out of our bellies.
C
Crossfire
Guest
I don't see where anyone has attempted to separate grace from truth. You and I simply have different perspectives concerning grace. You believe grace to be God's willingness to forgive sin which is indeed true but only part of a bigger whole. I conclude grace to be even more powerful and perceive it to be God's eagerness to overpower sin.
it is a hard one to understand that it is by faith and faith alone yet true faith does produce works except the works are not yours the believers they are God's the Holy Ghost living through you instead of just in you. Today it is the Holy Ghosts job to bring salvation to the unbelever unto eternity, being Born of the Spirit of God, which is why 1 John talks of the believer cannot sin, the key is wake up and go to sleep everday in the Spirit of God
Loving it
Homwardbound
Loving it
Homwardbound
G
GreenNnice
Guest
God's willingness to forgive sin, to me, anyway, equals mercy, we do not get something ( punishment) that we deserve. And the grace comes in when God forgives us of the wrong committed.
In the big 'salvation' scheme of things, grace is huge, look no further than good ole Eph. 2:8, "By grace are ye saved through faith.."
But, when it comes to grace or mercy, I think mercy carries much more weight because God is forgiving us of something that's bogged us down in sin that led to depression, guilt, shame, but, once we are contrite (God Loves one who is remorseful and sorry to Him for the wrong done) and come to Him in prostate acceptance of His mercy we ALWAYS get forgiven from confessing, because God is faithful, and, mercy, too, is a great thing, God is just, too. And for someone sinning, to then be fully contrite in spirit, talking/praying to God for the wrong done, repenting, too, , I believe, lends itself to more mercy from God in His forgiveness, which is FULLY GIVEN, as His Spirit shews you Love through counsel and care as you give Him your burdens, like Jesus asked us to do when we were 'weary and heavy burdened.'
God is so good to those who relationship with Him, put their sins at His feet, and, just walk away from them, forgetting them but for learning understanding as the Spirit leads, for God has FORGOT your sins the moment you confessed. Cleansed you to right standing (righteousness) with Him, too
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Salvation for man is God taking away and removing what he deserves because of sin and giving him what he doesn't deserve through grace. Both come from God through what the Son did on the cross and we are saved by grace (Eph 2:8,9) and according to mercy (Titus 3:5). Because of mercy and grace God's salvation can never be lost or forfeited or disanulled and has been sealed by the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and ratified through the blood of the new covenant (Mt 26:28) the moment man believes in his heart that God raised Christ from the dead. Salvation can only be received by faith through the work of Christ and when man believes, God then begins a work in man and will perform that work until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30, Phil 1:6), when the believer receives the redemption of his body (Rom 8:23).
A
Abiding
Guest
To look at grace to merely overpower sin although true in as much as it
empowers us to obey, is only a small part of our duty in life. And there
is much more to life than overcoming sin.
There is not a day that goes by we are not in need for grace. Especially
when nothing goes wrong and we are at our best. Thinking we are good,
is a time of need for grace. We need grace to save us from our best behavior.
Usually thats the time we enter that "evil day".
We need grace to save us from our theological eccentricities, to see.
We need grace to keep us from thinking any good in us was from our
doing. Or that our stand is secure because we know how to procure it.
Grace is merely what we need all day long for everything known
and unknown. Although surely we need moment by moment a dependence
on God for grace to resist sin, this is just one facet of our need.
Id venture to say that to overcome sin is almost like putting you
at zero...so the work can begin. Sorta like when Jesus said when you
have obeyed:
Luke 17:Unworthy Servants
7 “Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? 8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”
empowers us to obey, is only a small part of our duty in life. And there
is much more to life than overcoming sin.
There is not a day that goes by we are not in need for grace. Especially
when nothing goes wrong and we are at our best. Thinking we are good,
is a time of need for grace. We need grace to save us from our best behavior.
Usually thats the time we enter that "evil day".
We need grace to save us from our theological eccentricities, to see.
We need grace to keep us from thinking any good in us was from our
doing. Or that our stand is secure because we know how to procure it.
Grace is merely what we need all day long for everything known
and unknown. Although surely we need moment by moment a dependence
on God for grace to resist sin, this is just one facet of our need.
Id venture to say that to overcome sin is almost like putting you
at zero...so the work can begin. Sorta like when Jesus said when you
have obeyed:
Luke 17:Unworthy Servants
7 “Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? 8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”
C
Crossfire
Guest
The simple truth is that as long as a person is willing to answer the convictions of the Holy Spirit by humbling themselves and confessing their sin, seeking God's help whenever temptations arise then NO, a person can not "lose" their salvation.
However, if a person chooses to willingly ignore the inner workings of the Holy Spirit to repent of their sin, then it is my opinion the Holy Spirit can and will allow that person to become reprobate, which simply means God lifts his hand of blessing and protection off of their lives allowing the full weight (consequences) of their sin to come crashing down on them in the hopes that when this person hit's rock bottom, they will remember the time when they had experienced God's mercy and provision, and those memories might bring them to repentance.
However, if a person chooses to willingly ignore the inner workings of the Holy Spirit to repent of their sin, then it is my opinion the Holy Spirit can and will allow that person to become reprobate, which simply means God lifts his hand of blessing and protection off of their lives allowing the full weight (consequences) of their sin to come crashing down on them in the hopes that when this person hit's rock bottom, they will remember the time when they had experienced God's mercy and provision, and those memories might bring them to repentance.
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When the Lord Jesus asked the 12 disciples if they were going to leave Peter said where would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
Once a person knows the Lord and knows where all their blessings come from, where else could they possibly go? Could you leave Him now, knowing what you know? I couldn't. I honestly don't see how anyone could...
Once you get a glimpse, even partially, of the truth there is no going back to the lie. A person can only do what they believe. I suppose it is more complicated than that, but I don't know why it has to be.
King Saul disobeyed the voice of God, not through some personal sin but through negligence by ADDING his own religious preference to please the Lord in (1Sam 15). Because of this the kingdom was rend from Saul and given to David and God would not answer Saul on any future matter concerning the welfare of Israel.
Some of you think that Saul lost all that God gave to him including salvation and that through his death he ended up separated from God and in hell. Saul never repented of his disobedience and was constantly being hounded by an evil spirit. His sin was that he preserved the best to offer to God when God told him to destroy everything. He also consulted the witch of Endor who conjured to bring up Samuel (1Sam 28). Many of you think it was a demon who impersonated Samuel and that Saul went to the same place as Judas did in (Acts 1:25). Didn't Saul hit rock bottom and because there is not record of his repentance you must conclude according to your doctrine that he went to hell below to be separated from God forever.
How many of us have tried to preserve the best for God and offered it as a sacrifice for God to accept, but instead He rejected it because it was not of Him or from Him. Some offer their best understanding of doctrine or their best faith as a sacrifice to God to be accepted, but it falls short because it was added unto or taken away from the purity of the word that God has spoken. This is not good or right in the eyes of God according to (Prov 30:5,6)...
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
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C
Crossfire
Guest
If you assume that I believe everything that you stated above then your assumptions are wrong. Especially, your assumption that those who do believe in the way you described are unsaved. You are making judgements that no man is qualified to make.
However, Saul was clearly inhabited by an evil spirit. I, for one, believe that one can not possess saving faith and an unclean spirit simultaneously.
If you assume that I believe everything that you stated above then your assumptions are wrong. Especially, your assumption that those who do believe in the way you described are unsaved. You are making judgements that no man is qualified to make.
However, Saul was clearly inhabited by an evil spirit. I, for one, believe that one can not possess saving faith and an unclean spirit simultaneously.
Well you certainly have an odd way of agreeing that we cannot lose our Salvation...
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
F
feedm3
Guest
Your trying to force a conclusion on him. He does not have to conclude Saul went to hell because their is "NO RECORD" of his repentance.
Because there is "NO RECORD", it would mean the conclusion in unknown. Are you concluding he was saved? their is no record either way that says anything other than what we can read. So either conclusion is only a speculation.
In accordance with scripture, we can conclude rightly, if he repented, he was saved, if he did not then he was not.
Same with Simon the Sorcerer:
1. Was Simon saved at this point of belief?
.Here is his sin that made him not right with God.
2. So does this mean he was never saved? Or lost his salvation? Or what?
"perish" a Saved person is not described as one who will "perish".
3. So would this indicate he was NOT saved?
4. Can we be saved while are heart is not right with God?
"repent", there is the remedy.
5. Now what if he chose not to repent, and continued in his "bond of iniquity"? Would he be saved? Was he never saved?
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity
The purpose of bringing up that there was 'no repentance recorded or mentioned', is to confirm and illustrate that repentance can't be use in relationship to Saul's life and what God had done for him, to him and what had become of him when as king he had fallen short through disobedience to God's voice. You are trying to relate and make inferences between Saul and Simon and they are two entirely different cases. Saul was God's chosen to be the first anointed king over Israel and had responsibilities before God, one being to adhere to what God told him to perform upon the enemies of Israel. Simon was in the bond of iniquity that does not apply to Saul in any way, so put it aside and stop trying to compare the two.
You guys like to bring repentance into everything and use it to prove whether a person is spiritual or not, had grace or not or has been saved or not, but especially to reprove any eternal security that God gives to the believer through faith according to His mercy and grace when they believe. You can't have that because that would contradict your underlying premise of how a believer is kept and how he maintains his salvation through good works and not by faith through the goodness of God's grace and His faithfulness to what He has promised.
You have other scriptures to consider concerning Saul as to where he went after his death that comes from Samuel, who was called up and from Davids' testimony of Saul after his death, but you leave those alone because they do not support your doctrine that is in contradiction against the assurance and security of the believer's position in Christ through the blood and the righteousness of God imputed to him through faith when he believed.