Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[nathan3]

Who is Babylon the Great Harlot? Well I would start maybe at Rev 13. But you may want to read all of mark 13 first.

The Harlot is anyone. that rides the beast. In as much as the beast rises from the peoples of the world. And they all wounder after the beast and worship it; Then it seems that all the people that participate are the harlot That ride the beast system; lead by the 2nd beast, Satan. call it false religion. that seems like what the Babylon is. Confusion. they dont know who he is. really preforming supernatural mericals. in 2nd thess 2, is where he sets up . so if your looking for a city or name of a place, i would only give it that place, thats jerualem. But all the world rides it when it begins

Christ first warning in mark is deception.-- The first rider in Rev 6:2 has a cheap imitation bow,( rainbow ,Glory) around him..

Im tried.

 

[Bookends]

there are many flaws in what this guys said.

1. No persecution of the church by Rome? I guess when Rome hung peter on a cross that was not persecution?

this article isn't about persecution, it's about the dating of Revelation

2. Paul wrote letters to Ephesians in the times this article states John wrote to the same churches. However. we see that a major downfall had occurred between the time Paul write to the Ephesians and what John said was current in the time of his writing, the same with the other churches. On of the churches in John's writing had been suffering severe persecution in their church. I think it would be obvious if Paul was around in this time he would have also wrote to them, and encouraged them as he did the other churches.

You are making speculations, the doctrine of endurance is through out Paul's letters to the churches, why? Because they were persecuted and the persecution was escalating rapidly. Could it be that Paul wanted to write to many churches, but didn't have time or means and don't you think these letters where circulated through out the land to all the churches.

Place anyone of our churches today in the epic times back then, in the middle of a Roman epic Caesar cult and see how fast their downfall would be. I would suspect the spurious believers would drop out of the churches. Christians back then did go through things- like they couldn't buy and sell, because to the trade guilds (modern day unions, but much worse). Many of the guilds didn't allow Christians in the trade guilds because Christians wouldn't join them in worship practices (fornication, orgies, idolatry etc. etc.) No jobs, no money, can't buy or sell. And the Roman games where Christians were hung naked while wild animals ravaged their body parts and they were burned alive etc. etc.

it is also obvious john just did not send this letter to these seven churches, as he said not only will they be blessed if they read and understand, but ALL who read and understand what is said to the seven churches. it was written not just for them, but to all of us, who here many years later read it.

Did you even read all the quotes?

The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."
"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. "

What the author is saying is that John followed the example of Paul by addressing only 7 chruches by name. 1) Romans, 2) Corinthians, 3) Galations, 4) Ephesians, 5) Philippians, 6) Colossians and 7) Thessalonians. Whether or not this was intentional by God the ultimate writer and compiler of the Word is uncertain, but definitely noteworthy.

Just as Paul wrote to specifically to these churches and addressing their problems, John also wrote specifically to the 7 churches in Revelation and their problems. Both letters of Paul and revelations was written to them specifically addressing their problems specifically, but also for us to glean these writings for its worth in spiritual knowledge and in application when we are face with similar circumstances. Yes, we all benefit...You make it sound like I ignore this, quite untrue, and I believe Revelations is the most under rated book in our pulpits today.


Revelation is a great book we all need to hear.

1. it tells us who Christ is
2. it tells us who god is
3. it tells us why God has the reason and RIGHT to do what he is going to do.
4. It tells us what god will do to "defeat evil", "put and end to evil
5. It gives us confidence during tribulation that we can know we will be rewarded if we endure suffering, and that god is in control, and he will have voctory.
6. it warns that in the last days tribulation will get very severe, and for those who can endure it, they too will have reward, and do not have to know or think they are not alone.

Saying all this stuff happened in 70 AD is not very encouraging to those who will one day suffer these major events which according to John are worldwide in scope and nto limited to one small area on earth in the middle east. [/quote]

1. This article is a collection of quotes from books with the source, not one person wrote all these things.
2. We both know persecution started with the Jews and but also took up by the Romans, why, because the 1 century Christians lived in a Roman epic Caesar cult, and many other lesser gods were worshiped too.

I agree, this book needs to be heard, yes it tells us that God wins in the end, not necessarily how. And we need to endure. Maybe greater persecution is coming for us, I don't know. I believe Christ can come at any moment, but your eschatology doesn't allow for that, certain things must happen first, perhaps giving to some a false sense of security. But this book should not be projected into future speculations and money making schemes, with out any biblical warrent.

 

[Bookends]

Who is Babylon the Great Harlot? Well I would start maybe at Rev 13. But you may want to read all of mark 13 first.

The Harlot is anyone. that rides the beast. In as much as the beast rises from the peoples of the world. And they all wounder after the beast and worship it; Then it seems that all the people that participate are the harlot That ride the beast system; lead by the 2nd beast, Satan. call it false religion. that seems like what the Babylon is. Confusion. they dont know who he is. really preforming supernatural mericals. in 2nd thess 2, is where he sets up . so if your looking for a city or name of a place, i would only give it that place, thats jerualem. But all the world rides it when it begins

Christ first warning in mark is deception.-- The first rider in Rev 6:2 has a cheap imitation bow,( rainbow ,Glory) around him..

Im tried.

Mark 13
14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Jesus was talking to them, in their day, He's not telling us to flee to the mountains. If you think this is referring to Jerusalem now, well, if I were them, I'd flee to America, Canada, Costa Rica. Where are they going to flee to now, they are surrounded more so today then back in the day of ancient Jerusalem destruction.

Mark 13
15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, We don't live on our housetops today, neither do they in Jerusalem.

Mark 13
18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. Why, they didn't have heated cars back then, they were command to flee on foot.

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation (why was the a great tribulation, because the new covenant was being birthed and Satan didn't like it) as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. I take Great comfort in this, but I still need to be prepared. Christians do die for the Lord in other countries. John said in his revelation that he was in the tribulation along with the saints in Rev. 1.

and Mark 13
30 Truly, I say to you (His listeners, His followers), this generation (not next or that generation) will not pass away until all these things take place. Need I say more?

The thing is, we can agree to disagree and still be brothers in Christ. But I can also show you how most of Mark 13, Matt. 24, Luke 21 was referring to the wrath of God upon an apostate religious system, the old covenant, the types and shadows, the old worship system of Israel, that was passing way and made dead by God himself in 70AD. God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

City is more figurative. if its any its Jerualem where he sets up,. but the entire world partisipates. : / because that is what the subject is. dont hyper focus on one thing where you inglect the rest.

what makes you think it is Jerusalem. why would it not be rome or any other city which is part of the reformed roman empire. A leader sets up his throne in the capitol city of his empire. Since it is the roman empire which is reformed stronger than it was before. it would be somewhere in europe. Not in the middle east.

 

[nathan3]

what makes you think it is Jerusalem. why would it not be rome or any other city which is part of the reformed roman empire. A leader sets up his throne in the capitol city of his empire. Since it is the roman empire which is reformed stronger than it was before. it would be somewhere in europe. Not in the middle east.

umm what makes me think that. read 2nd thess 2 thats what. : / and rev 13

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this article isn't about persecution, it's about the dating of Revelation

As they would say in court. They opened the box to this line of questioning by using the fact there was no persecution by rome as their means for dating revelation. Since they were wrong in this aspect of their reasoning. it can not be used as a means to attempt to date the book.

You are making speculations, the doctrine of endurance is through out Paul's letters to the churches, why? Because they were persecuted and the persecution was escalating rapidly. Could it be that Paul wanted to write to many churches, but didn't have time or means and don't you think these letters where circulated through out the land to all the churches.

That was not my point.

1. Pauls letter the the ephesians focused on their position in Christ, and then general instruction to the church, and showing them how he sent them someone to keep them informed of paul so they can know how he is.
2. John wrote to them, by this time, they had left their first love, and were in danger of having their lampstand taken away if they did not repent.

come one now. if they were in this such sever danger owuld Paul not have warned them? He sent timothy to them when they STARTED to fall. before the thing jesus spoke to them in revelations even started.

Place anyone of our churches today in the epic times back then, in the middle of a Roman epic Caesar cult and see how fast their downfall would be. I would suspect the spurious believers would drop out of the churches. Christians back then did go through things- like they couldn't buy and sell, because to the trade guilds (modern day unions, but much worse).

Many of the guilds didn't allow Christians in the trade guilds because Christians wouldn't join them in worship practices (fornication, orgies, idolatry etc. etc.) No jobs, no money, can't buy or sell. And the Roman games where Christians were hung naked while wild animals ravaged their body parts and they were burned alive etc. etc.

aww. but this quote what this guy said..


2. George E. Ladd (1972)
"The problem with this [Domitian date] theory is that there is no evidence that during the last decade of the first century there occurred any open and systematic persecution of the church." (George E. Ladd, A Commentary on Revelation - Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972, p. 8.)
3. Steve Gregg (1997)
"Many scholars, including those supportive of a late date, have said that there is no historical proof that there was an empire-wide persecution of Christians even in Domitian's reign."

seems even you disagree with these statementf of support.

Did you even read all the quotes?

The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."
"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. "

What the author is saying is that John followed the example of Paul by addressing only 7 chruches by name. 1) Romans, 2) Corinthians, 3) Galations, 4) Ephesians, 5) Philippians, 6) Colossians and 7) Thessalonians. Whether or not this was intentional by God the ultimate writer and compiler of the Word is uncertain, but definitely noteworthy.

Look at what this guy said. All Scripture is God breathed. God put the word together, not paul. We know he wrote three letters to corinth. maybe even more. But God put in his word what he deemed was necessary. As For john, He wrote what God told him, God spoke to those seven churches, it was his doing, John did not write what he wanted, or to who he wanted to but what God told him. If the guy can't even understand this basic FACT, and questions whether God did it or not.l how can we listen to him?

Just as Paul wrote to specifically to these churches and addressing their problems, John also wrote specifically to the 7 churches in Revelation and their problems. Both letters of Paul and revelations was written to them specifically addressing their problems specifically, but also for us to glean these writings for its worth in spiritual knowledge and in application when we are face with similar circumstances. Yes, we all benefit...You make it sound like I ignore this, quite untrue, and I believe Revelations is the most under rated book in our pulpits today.

I agree, revelation is the most under rated, And also under taught. It was given to us for a reason. To help us in time of persecuation. which we will all go through, But none like those alive when the things of revelation take place. Also note though. Romans and ephesians was not addressing problems in the church, they were like gospel messages, Much like if paul came to our church today and taught not knowing who we were.

1. This article is a collection of quotes from books with the source, not one person wrote all these things.
2. We both know persecution started with the Jews and but also took up by the Romans, why, because the 1 century Christians lived in a Roman epic Caesar cult, and many other lesser gods were worshiped too.

I agree, this book needs to be heard, yes it tells us that God wins in the end, not necessarily how.

Oh it does tell us how. He comes to earth and destroys evil. All those who opposed God are wiped off the earth. So many dead it takes over a year to clean up the mess. And he sets up his own kingdom. where all the nations of the earth travel to him and worship him, and KNOWS he is the Lord and God. and on and on and on. It tells us exactly how. Just like Christ did in matt 24, when he tells us he returns because if he did not no flesh (living thing) would survive

And we need to endure. Maybe greater persecution is coming for us, I don't know. I believe Christ can come at any moment, but your eschatology doesn't allow for that, certain things must happen first, perhaps giving to some a false sense of security. But this book should not be projected into future speculations and money making schemes, with out any biblical warrent.

1. I am not out to make money, yes people do, but that is with all things, we should not disregard a doctrine because evil men try to get rich off of it.
2. Jesus spoke of the birth pangs which were the beginning of things, but the end would not be yet.
3. he then told us of things which WOULD IMMEDIATELY PRECEDE HIS COMMING
4. Revelations also spoke of things which would immediately precede his coming.

Your eschatology says he can come at any time, yet we are just beginning the birth pangs. No time in the history of mankind has things progressed exponentially as they have in the last 100 and some years. I am not saying he is going to come tomorrow. it may still be many years off. I am just saying we should be prepaired. As jesus said, when you see the buds on the trees you know the time is near. We are seeing these buds today, and to ssay these events took place in 70 AD and we do not have to worry about them is to give a false ho. It is just as dangerous as pretrib rapture if it is not true.

Revelations was written to prepair those who are on earth at the time. As Jesus said, Endure till the end, I will return, and you will be saved. But even if your not. I will have many things for you in heaven as reward for your endurance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

umm what makes me think that. read 2nd thess 2 thats what. : / and rev 13

um rev 2 simply states that the man of sin abominates the temple. it does not say he uses jerusalem as his throne room

Rev 13 speaks of two witnesses being killed. Nothing about a world leader who's throne is in jerusalem.

the man of sin is the prince who is to come. what empire is he from??

 

[nathan3]

Mark 13
14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Jesus was talking to them, in their day, He's not telling us to flee to the mountains. If you think this is referring to Jerusalem now, well, if I were them, I'd flee to America, Canada, Costa Rica. Where are they going to flee to now, they are surrounded more so today then back in the day of ancient Jerusalem destruction.

Hmm Judea is Jerusalem.... surrounded ? the subject is the desolator standing where he ought not... your translation even got the"he" right. dont over look that.

Mark 13
15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, We don't live on our housetops today, neither do they in Jerusalem.
wah ? the hosetop would be a look out post. Jesus is saying your not going to need a change of cloths the end is that close...... : /

Mark 13
18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. Why, they didn't have heated cars back then, they were command to flee on foot.
Christ is teaching... He was asked whats the end going to be like, that is the subject here. Harvest is always summer. He is saying not to be harvested out of season, if your taken in the winter , thats a bad sign , get it ?

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation (why was the a great tribulation, because the new covenant was being birthed and Satan didn't like it) <--- is that an assumption , or scripture? : /

as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. I take Great comfort in this, but I still need to be prepared. Christians do die for the Lord in other countries. John said in his revelation that he was in the tribulation along with the saints in Rev. 1.
well,. note that this is not some small event..
and Mark 13

30 Truly, I say to you (His listeners, His followers), this generation (not next or that generation) will not pass away until all these things take place. Need I say more?

Agian, what generation, the subject is the end of the world , His return.. not their Generation. need i say more. ?

The thing is, we can agree to disagree and still be brothers in Christ. But I can also show you how most of Mark 13, Matt. 24, Luke 21 was referring to the wrath of God upon an apostate religious system, the old covenant, the types and shadows, the old worship system of Israel, that was passing way and made dead by God himself in 70AD. God bless.

&#8220;But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains
looks he just told you...... read it., slowly if u got to. i posted more comments in your quote

 

[nathan3]

um rev 2 simply states that the man of sin abominates the temple. it does not say he uses jerusalem as his throne room

Rev 13 speaks of two witnesses being killed. Nothing about a world leader who's throne is in jerusalem.

the man of sin is the prince who is to come. what empire is he from??

thats not all rev 13 talks about unfortunalty. the two witness are in Rev11. not 13. read the 2nd beast.

 

[marianna]

Those things were all fulfilled at the Coming of Jesus, and people continue to convert daily around the world, including jews.

Thats interesting. John made these prophesies many years after christ had already come and gone. And what does people coming in have to do with it. It says that they are gone after, one is protected, one suffers severe persecution. How can they all be the same group of people?

Revelation is not only a book of near and far prophecies, it covers History as well, don't you agree? It covers the Messianic age from several viewpoints, from Advent to Advent, returning each time to the First. It's not all future, even to John.

Example (notice how far into the book this historical illustration is - chapter 12):

And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. - Revelation 12:4

Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi. - Matthew 2:16

And what does people coming in have to do with it. It says that they are gone after, one is protected, one suffers severe persecution. How can they all be the same group of people?

The focus being Jerusalem, the narrative is precise.
The primary focus is on the israelites. Most did not enter into the New Covenant through unbelief (though The LORD gave them time to repent), but the remnant did enter in. They became the first Christians, do you agree?

They escaped Jerusalem before the Romans destroyed it. The reprobate were slaughtered.

...and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. - Luke 19:44

Isreal today is the enemy of God, there is no argument here. but we are not talking about today or 2000 years ago, we are talking about future events.

No, the vast majority of what is written has already happened.
"Israel" today is no more or less an enemy of God than all others who don't believe. Their particular punishment (wrath) was poured out in 70AD.

There is only the Gospel and the Church.
One is either saved or not saved. We are either presenting the same Gospel message to all or we are not.
The only future "Israel" (the Nation State) has is to perish like all others. Individuals must receive the Savior.
There is no provision for Israelis other than the same One offered to all.

In one passage of revelation. The beast comes after the woman who gave birth to Christ (isreal) and in another. The beast destroys the harlot.

The problem with your belief is the first woman is protected by God causing the beast to go after her offspring (the church) and in the other. The beast in a surprise attack destroys the harlot.

Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him." - Matthew 2:13

Well, Revelation is a book of victory, hope, comfort and establishment of history, and soon and far events prophesied. We should be able to see the types and symbols throughout the Scriptures, especially in Revelation.
Everything is about Jesus.

if both women are the same.

1. The first passage is wrong, because the beast does not suprise attack her, he goes after her but is prevented from touching her. and in the second woman, God is unable to protect her.

2. God lied about protecting the woman.

3. Gid did not fulfill his promise to make sure there was a rmenant who was spared. And at one time (the end of the age) all of the nation of Isreal would be saved.

Your conclusions are illogical and are based on a misunderstanding of what has and has not been fulfilled.
Why do you add "And at one time (the end of the age) all of the nation of Isreal would be saved"?

Where did you get the end of the age from Romans?

That is not what Romans says. Even you have admitted "all" can not mean "all", since I asked what was the fate of all who died in their unbelief.

There fate is the same as ANYONE who rejects christ, they will spend an eternity in hell. ALL ISRAEL is not all who ever lived and were descended from Abraham Issac and Jacob for the last 4000 years. It is ALL ISRAEL who are on earth living at the time of this prophesy. Why people try to twist it to make it look like we say they will all be saved is just a simple ploy to make us look bad.

This is what I asked you to show in the Bible:

"ALL ISRAEL is not all who ever lived and were descended from Abraham Issac and Jacob for the last 4000 years. It is ALL ISRAEL who are on earth living at the time of this prophesy."

Could you please show where this distinction is made anywhere?

In any case, Paul's passages discussing how all israel will be saved involves his assertion that all who are from Israel are not Israel, do you agree he says that?

He is making a distinction between those who are the faithful elect remnant those who are not. This is a repeating pattern through the Old Testament, do you agree? My NASB capitalizes Old Testament quotes. Paul is making it clear.

Romans 9
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, &#8220;THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.&#8221;

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
&#8220;UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.&#8221;

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

33just as it is written,
&#8220;BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.&#8221;

Those who stumbled and rejected Jesus were destroyed in 70AD.

This is from the Jewish Virtual Library:

The Jewish state comes to an end in 70 AD, when the Romans begin to actively drive Jews from the home they had lived in for over a millennium. But the Jewish Diaspora ("diaspora" ="dispersion, scattering") had begun long before the Romans had even dreamed of Judaea. When the Assyrians conquered Israel in 722, the Hebrew inhabitants were scattered all over the Middle East; these early victims of the dispersion disappeared utterly from the pages of history. However, when Nebuchadnezzar deported the Judaeans in 597 and 586 BC, he allowed them to remain in a unified community in Babylon. Another group of Judaeans fled to Egypt, where they settled in the Nile delta. So from 597 onwards, there were three distinct groups of Hebrews: a group in Babylon and other parts of the Middle East, a group in Judaea, and another group in Egypt. Thus, 597 is considered the beginning date of the Jewish Diaspora.

I think one problem we have is when we assume there were only Israelites in Jerusalem, and so how could so many have survived the destruction of it? Obviously because many had never returned at all. They weren't there when it was destroyed. The ones who were there were slaughtered. Only a few survived 70AD and as the Bible says, as God predicted, they were taken away in chains and became slaves, or were killed anyway.

His Judgment was upon Jerusalem and it happened (i'm not saying it won't happen again, but Newspaper Headlines are not Holy Scripture. And if it did, it won't be for the same reason it happened in 70AD, as that was the predicted wrath and punishment as the Old Covenant came to a close.).

This is from "Eye Witness to History":

The Romans Destroy the Temple at Jerusalem, 70 AD

"In the year 66 AD the Jews of Judea rebelled against their Roman masters. In response, the Emperor Nero dispatched an army under the generalship of Vespasian to restore order. By the year 68, resistance in the northern part of the province had been eradicated and the Romans turned their full attention to the subjugation of Jerusalem. That same year, the Emperor Nero died by his own hand, creating a power vacuum in Rome. In the resultant chaos, Vespasian was declared Emperor and returned to the Imperial City. It fell to his son, Titus, to lead the remaining army in the assault on Jerusalem.

Roman CenturianThe Roman legions surrounded the city and began to slowly squeeze the life out of the Jewish stronghold. By the year 70, the attackers had breached Jerusalem's outer walls and began a systematic ransacking of the city. The assault culminated in the burning and destruction of the Temple that served as the center of Judaism.

In victory, the Romans slaughtered thousands. Of those sparred from death: thousands more were enslaved and sent to toil in the mines of Egypt, others were dispersed to arenas throughout the Empire to be butchered for the amusement of the public. The Temple's sacred relics were taken to Rome where they were displayed in celebration of the victory.

The rebellion sputtered on for another three years and was finally extinguished in 73 AD with the fall of the various pockets of resistance including the stronghold at Masada."

as their "trouble" or severe persecution causes them to open their eyes and repent of the evil they and their fathers have commited against God by playing the harlot with foreign Gods.

Your the one with the problem maam. Not me.

Well, I don't see it that I have a problem.
Anyone who is not receiving Jesus does not have the Father anyway, so I do not see how anything you say relates to the Nation State of Israel today. They have no provision.

You did not read what I said or what John said. The beast goes after the woman, God protects her. It is not a remnent, it is all. And since God protects the woman, he goes and persecutes her offspring. which would be us.

I think you don't understand who the woman is.
God is only ever protecting those who love Him (Jesus).
Rejecting Jesus means rejecting the Father.

The point is, the woman God protects can't be the church, The church did not give birth to Christ, and the woman God protects can't be the harlot, because God does not protect her, he helps destroy her,, So who is it, the woman, who GAVE BIRTH TO CHRIST that God protects?

Did not the Church begin in the Old Testament?
Is not the Church the assembly of the faithful?
Were not those who first received the LORD in Judea Israelites?
Did they not take the message to the Gentiles who were then grafted in?
Is not the Church clearly defined as all those in Christ?
Even by Paul, Peter, James, John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, and so on?
Was not Jesus the King of Israel, the prophesied Messiah?
Did not the disciples receive their power as priests and kings at Pentecost?

Show you what? Something that is not going to happen because you misunderstand what we are saying? No I can't because non of us have ever stated what you questioned.

I don't misunderstand what you are saying.
It's just that you are in error and will not see it.

You are still denying that playing the harlot is a verb application of the noun harlot. And that apostate Israel was the Harlot. You seem to be doing this deliberately, which is baffling.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

thats not all rev 13 talks about unfortunalty. the two witness are in Rev11. not 13. read the 2nd beast.

ok forgive me, I was thinking fast. People use the two witnesses killed in Jerusalem alot for proof. Never heard rev 13 used for this.

rev 13 speaks of the final beast empire of daniels prophesies. Daniel was told the 4th beast would get power, then suffer a wound, then be restored greater than it was before. This is what rev 13 is talking about.

The roman empire was wounded when it fell. It will be restored far greater than it was before. Since it is the 4th empire, which is rome. It is logical to understand, this man given power by God to rule the world will be in his capital city. The second beast in ch 13, again does not have any indication he will be in jerusalem and that will be his capitol city.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation is not only a book of near and far prophecies, it covers History as well, don't you agree? It covers the Messianic age from several viewpoints, from Advent to Advent, returning each time to the First. It's not all future, even to John.

The first two chapters are past. Speaks of Christ.
The second two chapters are present, the seven local churches at that time.
From that point forward, it is future. There is nothing in chapters 5 to the end which would support anything which happened before John wrote these letters. In fact, all the things spoken of in chapter 6 on are future events which will be worldwide in scope. It is Gods final plan to destroy evil, and bring an end to the age.

Example (notice how far into the book this historical illustration is - chapter 12):

And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. - Revelation 12:4

read the whole thing.

1. She gives birth (this is Isreal)
2. The child departed earth and went to be with God.
3. The woman flees and is protected by God for 3 1/2 years. Has this happened yet? The whole time of this small vision encompass the beginning of Christ until the end. when the woman is protected.

Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi. - Matthew 2:16

what, you think this is the woman being protected? The woman is protected after the male child is caught up to God. try reading again!!

The focus being Jerusalem, the narrative is precise.
The primary focus is on the israelites. Most did not enter into the New Covenant through unbelief (though The LORD gave them time to repent), but the remnant did enter in. They became the first Christians, do you agree?

yes, but that is not what we are discussing, yet you continue to want to go back here. why I have no clue!

They escaped Jerusalem before the Romans destroyed it. The reprobate were slaughtered.

and here we go again. John is told in revelation by God that the woman will be protected. this would be the whole woman, not just the saved ones.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




1. Who is the woman? can only Be isreal.
2. Who is her offspring, who unlike the woman, keep the commands of God? The Church.

do you want to discuss this? or keep going on rabbit trails which lead to no where?

No, the vast majority of what is written has already happened.
"Israel" today is no more or less an enemy of God than all others who don't believe. Their particular punishment (wrath) was poured out in 70AD.

oh it has??

Chapter 6.

And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Wolrd, Not Isreal, people kill each other. not romans kill jew.

nd the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This happened in ad 70? come on now. don't tell me you really believe this!!

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


This happened in AD 70? did the roman army and all the great men of the earth beg the rocks to fall on them so they can be hidden from the great and terrible day od wrath of the lord prophesied all throughout scripture??

There is only the Gospel and the Church.
One is either saved or not saved. We are either presenting the same Gospel message to all or we are not.

We are not talking about the gospel. we are talking about who the woman is, and who the womans offspring, and when these events take place.


When your ready to talk let me know. I am sick of going off on rabbit trails whihc do not add to the discussion.

 

[Abiding]

After Nero committed suicide rome had civil wars.
Vespasian came to power, revamped economy, started(69ad)
rebuilding Rome including colosseum..etc
and started expanding borders.

 

[marianna]

The first two chapters are past. Speaks of Christ.
The second two chapters are present, the seven local churches at that time.
From that point forward, it is future. There is nothing in chapters 5 to the end which would support anything which happened before John wrote these letters. In fact, all the things spoken of in chapter 6 on are future events which will be worldwide in scope. It is Gods final plan to destroy evil, and bring an end to the age.

But you proceed to to contradict yourself entirely right here:

read the whole thing.

1. She gives birth (this is Isreal)
2. The child departed earth and went to be with God.
3. The woman flees and is protected by God for 3 1/2 years. Has this happened yet? The whole time of this small vision encompass the beginning of Christ until the end. when the woman is protected.

There is nothing in chapters 5 to the end which would support anything which happened before John wrote these letters. In fact, all the things spoken of in chapter 6 on are future events which will be worldwide in scope.

I have read the whole thing.

do you want to qualify your statement at all?

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered , for to devour her child as soon as it was born . 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne - Revelation 12

You said unequivocally nothing beyond 5 is history to John.
Just the part in 12 we are discussing proves you wrong.
I just wonder how you get around your assertions when you're proven wrong? You could just qualify the dogmatism and concede that Revelation covers the entire time of the Messiah several times and is NOT all future.

12 proves that, right?

what, you think this is the woman being protected? The woman is protected after the male child is caught up to God. try reading again!!

Yes I know.
Has Jesus ascended yet?

what, you think this is the woman being protected? The woman is protected after the male child is caught up to God. try reading again!!

Right.
Jesus ascended to the Right Hand of God, The Spirit came and brought all things to remembrance He had taught the disciples, including this teaching, which involved PROTECTION:

20&#8220;But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21&#8220;Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23&#8220;Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled - Luke 21

Who are the "this people" Jesus was describing?
Have you yet considered how it is the Christian disciples escaped the wrath that fell on Jerusalem?

yes, but that is not what we are discussing, yet you continue to want to go back here. why I have no clue!

Because if that error is fixed, the rest falls into place.

and here we go again. John is told in revelation by God that the woman will be protected. this would be the whole woman, not just the saved ones.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How can you make a statement then quote the passages that prove you wrong?
I don't understand this.

In other places you have conceded that all Israel does not mean all, and that those who were in unbelief were not saved, that they did not enter in.
So why do you now try to say God is obliged to save the whole house of Israel, when the Bible clearly says REMNANT. Always remnant.

The above is about the Church - it was primarily originally OT Hebrew, but then gentiles were grafted in.
Is God said anywhere to be under obligation to those who hate Him and rejected Jesus? No. He says just the opposite.

1. Who is the woman? can only Be isreal.
2. Who is her offspring, who unlike the woman, keep the commands of God? The Church.

Why did you add this part? "who unlike the woman"?
It is talking about the FAITHFUL woman, not the unfaithful harlot.
The Old Testament Church which entered into the New Covenasnt and was still the OT faithful Church and the gentiles were grafted in.

The unfaithful woman is the harlot, Apostate Israel.
Jesus cursed them. You agree, don't you?

do you want to discuss this? or keep going on rabbit trails which lead to no where?

Why would you dismiss knowledge of what happened in 70AD, and where all of Israel was in the known world when Jesus walked the earth? Why would you call that rabbit trails? Have you really thought this through?

oh it has??

Chapter 6.

And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Wolrd, Not Isreal, people kill each other. not romans kill jew.

nd the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

This happened in ad 70? come on now. don't tell me you really believe this!!

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, &#8220;Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?&#8221;


This happened in AD 70? did the roman army and all the great men of the earth beg the rocks to fall on them so they can be hidden from the great and terrible day od wrath of the lord prophesied all throughout scripture??

What have been saying to you, and what our discussion which just scratched the surface bringing in Revelation 12 is that the Book is not a straight line from past to future. It tells the same story several times, returning to the First Advent, even near the end of the book.

Do you agree we have seen that just in this post alone?

We are not talking about the gospel. we are talking about who the woman is, and who the womans offspring, and when these events take place.

When your ready to talk let me know. I am sick of going off on rabbit trails whihc do not add to the discussion.

I am talking. Why are you so hostile?
Revelation repeats the Gospel many times, I suppose you would consider that rabbit trails.
If we don't understand God's Plan I do wonder if we understand the Gospel.

 

[marianna]

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered , for to devour her child as soon as it was born . 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne - Revelation 12[/B]

Galatians 4
Bond and Free

21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

 

[Abiding]

Be nice now....remember we are family. No below the belt stuff and
protect yourself at all times.

good protein source try some. And have some
of my new batch of huckleberry jam

And some fresh squeezed milk

now get back after it.

 

[marianna]

I'm sorry for any below the belt stuff.
I apologize.

 

[Abiding]

I'm sorry for any below the belt stuff.
I apologize.

No everythings been ok...i just like reading the debates and
dont want anyone to go too far....its just my selfcenteredness
in action again.

 

[marianna]

No, you are right, I reread my posts and I want to apologize to Eternally Grateful.
Could you forgive me Eternally Grateful?
marianna.

 

[Bookends]

Commenting inside my quote makes it hard to respond. Your comments are in Red. My comments to your comments are in green.

Mark 13
14 &#8220;But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Jesus was talking to them, in their day, He's not telling us to flee to the mountains. If you think this is referring to Jerusalem now, well, if I were them, I'd flee to America, Canada, Costa Rica. Where are they going to flee to now, they are surrounded more so today then back in the day of ancient Jerusalem destruction.

Hmm Judea is Jerusalem.... surrounded ? the subject is the desolator standing where he ought not... your translation even got the"he" right. dont over look that.

Where should the abomination of desolation be standing?

Mark 13
15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, We don't live on our housetops today, neither do they in Jerusalem.
wah ? the hosetop would be a look out post. Jesus is saying your not going to need a change of cloths the end is that close...... : /
I'll play your game here, is that an assumption or scriptural? We are talking about the end of the age (aion, in Matthews account) here, not necessarily the end of the world. If this was an passage for the end of the world, why even mention one's cloths, we all know we can't take our material possessions to heaven, lol, obviously one could dilly dally and miss the boat, in this case, one could have taken their time in leaving the city, in which it would have been too late once the armies of Roman surrounded Jerusalem.

Mark 13
18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. Why, they didn't have heated cars back then, they were command to flee on foot.
Christ is teaching... He was asked whats the end going to be like, that is the subject here. Harvest is always summer. He is saying not to be harvested out of season, if your taken in the winter , thats a bad sign , get it ? You are assuming the end is the end of the world, or at least a rapture. That's also an assumption. Completely your view, as well my view is the end of the age, the temple, Jewish social and center of the Jewish life, thus, end of the aion, not kosmos. Sorry, my interpretation fits the greek word better.

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be such tribulation (why was the a great tribulation, because the new covenant was being birthed and Satan didn't like it) <--- is that an assumption , or scripture? : / Which part? doesn't really matter, I say scripture, Hebrews 8:13 "13 In that He says, &#8220;A new covenant,&#8221; He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. I take Great comfort in this, but I still need to be prepared. Christians do die for the Lord in other countries. John said in his revelation that he was in the tribulation along with the saints in Rev. 1.
well,. note that this is not some small event..
and Mark 13

30 Truly, I say to you (His listeners, His followers), this generation (not next or that generation) will not pass away until all these things take place. Need I say more?

Agian, what generation, the subject is the end of the world , His return.. not their Generation. need i say more. ? Again, it's you assumption that Jesus is talking bout the end of the world, the greek word is aion, age, and the context is clearly seen in Matthew 23 and first 3 verse of 24.