Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?
- Thread starter Bookends
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Who is the harlot?
1. Bears the representation of a harlot ( rev 17: 1-2, 15 - 16. It claimed to be christs bride, but had fallen from its pure purpose and had become a harlot.
2. a leader in ecclesiastical affairs. rev 17 : 2. 5. Spiritual fornication in scripture is an adherance to a false religious system.
3. the system is a leader in political affairs ( rev 17:3 ) it is seen to be controlling the beast for which it sits.
4 the system has become very rich and influential ( rev 17: 4)
5. The system represents the stage of development of christiondom that was hithertoo unrevieled ( rev 17: 5) in that it was called the " mystery "
6. the system has been a great persecutor of the saints. (rev 17: 6 )
7. the system is an organised system of worldwide scope ( rev 17 : 15)
8. The system will be destroyed by the beast, the head of the roman coalition, so that his supremace may not be threatened ( rev 17: 16 - 17 )
In order for jerusalem and or Isreal or judaism to be the harlot. they would have to fit every one of these characteristics. They may fit one, maybe two. but in no way does she, or has she ever fit all of these signs of who the harlot is.
9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’
19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
When in history has jerusalem, Isreal or Judiasm done any of these things. Are you telling me the world is going to weep and lament over Isreals and jerusalems destruction because the one who made them rich is now destroyed?
It doesn't fit!
1. Bears the representation of a harlot ( rev 17: 1-2, 15 - 16. It claimed to be christs bride, but had fallen from its pure purpose and had become a harlot.
2. a leader in ecclesiastical affairs. rev 17 : 2. 5. Spiritual fornication in scripture is an adherance to a false religious system.
3. the system is a leader in political affairs ( rev 17:3 ) it is seen to be controlling the beast for which it sits.
4 the system has become very rich and influential ( rev 17: 4)
5. The system represents the stage of development of christiondom that was hithertoo unrevieled ( rev 17: 5) in that it was called the " mystery "
6. the system has been a great persecutor of the saints. (rev 17: 6 )
7. the system is an organised system of worldwide scope ( rev 17 : 15)
8. The system will be destroyed by the beast, the head of the roman coalition, so that his supremace may not be threatened ( rev 17: 16 - 17 )
In order for jerusalem and or Isreal or judaism to be the harlot. they would have to fit every one of these characteristics. They may fit one, maybe two. but in no way does she, or has she ever fit all of these signs of who the harlot is.
9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’
19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
When in history has jerusalem, Isreal or Judiasm done any of these things. Are you telling me the world is going to weep and lament over Isreals and jerusalems destruction because the one who made them rich is now destroyed?
It doesn't fit!
I'm assuming you are talking of Revelation 12:13-17?
it's impossible to answer a question if you you don't understand the question... I guess you saying since Mary is the mother of Jesus, that the offspring can't be the bride of Christ. If you look at the two kingdoms of Israel in the OT, you have Israel (the mother) and Judah (the daughter) but both would be considered to be the bride of Christ. Just as Hagar and Sarah were both Abraham's wives, you have a concubine and the real one.
are you talking about the two witness in Rev. 11? 12(tribes) x 12(apostles)x 1000 (a number symbolizing a complete unit, like a legion, also could be a large number, in which John later also sees a great multitude. 14400o0 and the great multitude are the same group) equals the 144000 thousand describing the whole church, OT and NT. I don't expect you to agree, so any other person wants a better explanation go here Who are the 144,000 of Revelation? | CRI
Her offspring can be any Jew or gentile saved in the blood of Jesus Christ. Most of the 1st century Christians where converted Jews. You keep on wanting to sew the veil back together that was ripped in two.
Jesus Himself stated that he saw Satan thrown down to earth.
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
It's plain as day, as Jesus told His disciples then and in that day, as it is true today, they had the power over Satan, and that He SAW Satan fall... It is my understanding that Satan no longer has the access to talk with God as like he did in the book of Job, and has no longer the power to possess and control true Israel, Spiritual Israel, as he did to natural Israel, fleshly Israel. Therefore in this sense He is bound, but not destroyed yet.
It is quite evident that is a huge disconnect on how you think and how I think about this, its like between night and day, or like been men and women.
it's impossible to answer a question if you you don't understand the question... I guess you saying since Mary is the mother of Jesus, that the offspring can't be the bride of Christ. If you look at the two kingdoms of Israel in the OT, you have Israel (the mother) and Judah (the daughter) but both would be considered to be the bride of Christ. Just as Hagar and Sarah were both Abraham's wives, you have a concubine and the real one.
are you talking about the two witness in Rev. 11? 12(tribes) x 12(apostles)x 1000 (a number symbolizing a complete unit, like a legion, also could be a large number, in which John later also sees a great multitude. 14400o0 and the great multitude are the same group) equals the 144000 thousand describing the whole church, OT and NT. I don't expect you to agree, so any other person wants a better explanation go here Who are the 144,000 of Revelation? | CRI
Her offspring can be any Jew or gentile saved in the blood of Jesus Christ. Most of the 1st century Christians where converted Jews. You keep on wanting to sew the veil back together that was ripped in two.
Jesus Himself stated that he saw Satan thrown down to earth.
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
It's plain as day, as Jesus told His disciples then and in that day, as it is true today, they had the power over Satan, and that He SAW Satan fall... It is my understanding that Satan no longer has the access to talk with God as like he did in the book of Job, and has no longer the power to possess and control true Israel, Spiritual Israel, as he did to natural Israel, fleshly Israel. Therefore in this sense He is bound, but not destroyed yet.
It is quite evident that is a huge disconnect on how you think and how I think about this, its like between night and day, or like been men and women.
E
Are you saying mary is the woman in Rev 12? if not. i don;t get your question.
This does not make sense. if anything, Judah would be the mother. because Christ came from the loins of David, who was from judah.
Second. God did not make them two kingdoms. They themselves did when they split by having two kings.
third. The mother would be who the promise came from. Abraham, Issacc and Jacob, Jacob had 12 sons, so all of them would be considered the mother.
well I disagree. I believe the 14400 is exactly what is says, Notice not to far from this John says he sees a number to large to count from every tribe nation and tongue. This I believe is the church. but the 14400 I take as literal. no reason not to.
Thats funny. This is exactly what I have said. And now you say I see something different? This makes no sense..
Her offspring is every person who is saved. whether jew or gentile, So how can she be the woman and also the offspring? this makes no sense.
Yep. But we are also told satan on a daily basis is in the presence of God making accusations against the saints. and doing many other things.
Jesus saw him get cast out when he fell. But that is not what John saw. he saw him thrown down, where he has NO ACCESS period to heaven any longer. This is not an accurate description of any time period up even until today.
Scripture does not say this. How can satan be in heaven accusing us today if he does not have access to god?
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Now if those who are saying these things are the saved people of God. And they are claiming that satan has accused their brothers up until this point. This can not be speaking of any period before today. It is foolish to think Satan does not have access and accuse us today. Thats why we have Jesus sitting on his throne, so when Satan accuses us, Jesus defends us.
and again it all comes from interpretation. Where you interpret symbolic and past. I interpret literal (when it is not infered to be symbol) and future. that is the disconnect.
This does not make sense. if anything, Judah would be the mother. because Christ came from the loins of David, who was from judah.
Second. God did not make them two kingdoms. They themselves did when they split by having two kings.
third. The mother would be who the promise came from. Abraham, Issacc and Jacob, Jacob had 12 sons, so all of them would be considered the mother.
well I disagree. I believe the 14400 is exactly what is says, Notice not to far from this John says he sees a number to large to count from every tribe nation and tongue. This I believe is the church. but the 14400 I take as literal. no reason not to.
Thats funny. This is exactly what I have said. And now you say I see something different? This makes no sense..
Her offspring is every person who is saved. whether jew or gentile, So how can she be the woman and also the offspring? this makes no sense.
Yep. But we are also told satan on a daily basis is in the presence of God making accusations against the saints. and doing many other things.
Jesus saw him get cast out when he fell. But that is not what John saw. he saw him thrown down, where he has NO ACCESS period to heaven any longer. This is not an accurate description of any time period up even until today.
Scripture does not say this. How can satan be in heaven accusing us today if he does not have access to god?
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Now if those who are saying these things are the saved people of God. And they are claiming that satan has accused their brothers up until this point. This can not be speaking of any period before today. It is foolish to think Satan does not have access and accuse us today. Thats why we have Jesus sitting on his throne, so when Satan accuses us, Jesus defends us.
and again it all comes from interpretation. Where you interpret symbolic and past. I interpret literal (when it is not infered to be symbol) and future. that is the disconnect.
P
That makes me wont to do it even more.
Yes the woman can be the church and her fruit/seed at the same time.
Israel of old brut forth a man child that was the sacrificial lamb.
In the last days, the woman/church brings forth the a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.
You cant interpret the scripture that makes God look unjust or unrighteous of having favourites because of flesh and circumcision .
You have the Jews and their families/children fleeing to the wilderness and being protected and fed by God, wail the non-Jewish Christians and their families/children dealing with the tribulation and the antichrist.
The church needs to know that she can flee to the wilderness and be protected and fed by God not just Jews.
The church has fruit thus the woman’s seed. Yes they can be both.
You just have to look at the news to see who flees in times of trouble, the children, the old men and women, and their carers.
It’s the men or the ones that have the heart or the calling of God that love not their lives unto the death. that stay and preach the gospel and deal with the antichrist and the tribulation, the fruit/seed of the woman is the fruit of the church, and the church is the woman.
Faith comes by hearing the word, so the church needs to know that she is the woman that can flee to the wilderness and be protected and fed by God when the tribulation starts not just the jews.
I see some parallels between Mary and the Church, I believe the woman (Mary) represents the people of God (past, present and future). Mary did not give birth to the church, but she gave birth the ONE who gave the Church it's identity in which all the types and shadow had their fulfillment. I claim the Church always existed through time, but wasn't seen clearly or visible in the OT and when Christ came, it was made visible. God always had a people separated unto Himself. All this proclaimed in Genesis 3:15.
"the term "offspring" in verse 17 also refers to the church, the spiritual seed of Abraham. And in Revelation 12:13-17 I do believe John is drawing a comparison contrast between Mary's experience bring forth the man child to the experience the believers had to endure. For Mary had to flee King Harold (Satan's puppet) and put "earth" distance between them (But the earth helped the woman), just as the offspring had to flee to Mnt Pella and flee the destruction of Jerusalem.
Therefore, we need to properly identify who this woman is, which is clearly done so by John, in stating that she gave birth to the man child, the Church who had their identity in Christ. And properly identify who this offspring is, in which John does so by calling them the offspring of the this woman, and in collusion with the other writings of God's word by studying who the "seed" is in scripture.
Mary came from the line of David. But Mary only represents the church, God's people, and doesn't not literally give birth to the offspring, but only in a spiritual sense does because of who Christ is, the seed.
You keep saying that the mother can't give birth to herself. You are confusion the spiritual meaning of these terms. If want to do that, then figure this one out. God is our father, brother and husband. How can God be all 3? All 3 represent our relationship with God. In the same why the woman and offspring represent the Church body of Christ.
You believe God is sovereign don't you? I believe God divided them by His design, not mans.
I would say they are the invisible church, therefore they are the woman, they are of the seed, and also of the Sarah the free woman.
No surprise here that you disagree, lol... I think we should just drop it.
Thats funny. This is exactly what I have said. And now you say I see something different? This makes no sense..
The woman here and offspring are the same group of people. Those who have their identity in Christ. All those who put their trusting faith in God, the types and shadows that pointed to Christ, and us who look back to Christ. I don't know how to answer you other then you see these figures "the woman" and "offspring" in a literal sense and where I see them as symbol representing God's people.
God is omnipresent, isn't he? The reason why Satan was thrown out of heaven was for our benefit, Satan no longer has the clout and power to mislead the saints from recognizing Christ, 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. This has to be for our benefit, our age, it wouldn't make sense if it was for a semi-golden age where we won't need the blood of the lamb to overcome.
thrown down , cast down, whats the difference?
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Jesus is not only on the throne, He indwells every believer.
WE AGREE!!! Although when I say it's symbolic, I use the bible to prove my point. When I say past I use the bible and history to prove my point. You can't prove anything, because it's all future according to you. You can say its all future and no can prove you wrong or right. Time will tell.
Now can we be done this this, I'm growing weary of it.
"the term "offspring" in verse 17 also refers to the church, the spiritual seed of Abraham. And in Revelation 12:13-17 I do believe John is drawing a comparison contrast between Mary's experience bring forth the man child to the experience the believers had to endure. For Mary had to flee King Harold (Satan's puppet) and put "earth" distance between them (But the earth helped the woman), just as the offspring had to flee to Mnt Pella and flee the destruction of Jerusalem.
Therefore, we need to properly identify who this woman is, which is clearly done so by John, in stating that she gave birth to the man child, the Church who had their identity in Christ. And properly identify who this offspring is, in which John does so by calling them the offspring of the this woman, and in collusion with the other writings of God's word by studying who the "seed" is in scripture.
Mary came from the line of David. But Mary only represents the church, God's people, and doesn't not literally give birth to the offspring, but only in a spiritual sense does because of who Christ is, the seed.
You keep saying that the mother can't give birth to herself. You are confusion the spiritual meaning of these terms. If want to do that, then figure this one out. God is our father, brother and husband. How can God be all 3? All 3 represent our relationship with God. In the same why the woman and offspring represent the Church body of Christ.
You believe God is sovereign don't you? I believe God divided them by His design, not mans.
I would say they are the invisible church, therefore they are the woman, they are of the seed, and also of the Sarah the free woman.
No surprise here that you disagree, lol... I think we should just drop it.
Thats funny. This is exactly what I have said. And now you say I see something different? This makes no sense..
The woman here and offspring are the same group of people. Those who have their identity in Christ. All those who put their trusting faith in God, the types and shadows that pointed to Christ, and us who look back to Christ. I don't know how to answer you other then you see these figures "the woman" and "offspring" in a literal sense and where I see them as symbol representing God's people.
God is omnipresent, isn't he? The reason why Satan was thrown out of heaven was for our benefit, Satan no longer has the clout and power to mislead the saints from recognizing Christ, 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. This has to be for our benefit, our age, it wouldn't make sense if it was for a semi-golden age where we won't need the blood of the lamb to overcome.
thrown down , cast down, whats the difference?
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Jesus is not only on the throne, He indwells every believer.
WE AGREE!!! Although when I say it's symbolic, I use the bible to prove my point. When I say past I use the bible and history to prove my point. You can't prove anything, because it's all future according to you. You can say its all future and no can prove you wrong or right. Time will tell.
Now can we be done this this, I'm growing weary of it.
E
and you need to study scripture so you do not make yourself look so bad.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]
Rev 13: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
God said he will go after those who keep his commands and have the testimony of Christ, He is given authority to do this, And John makes it clear, he does overcome them. He will kill them, he will imprison them. This will be a time of great persecution of Gods children like never has been seen on earth. It is why John wrote revelation. To warn us, And help us continue to have faith. Knowing Jesus will win this battle. It is those who say God will protect us from harm who are dangerous. Yeah, those like you!
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]
Rev 13: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
God said he will go after those who keep his commands and have the testimony of Christ, He is given authority to do this, And John makes it clear, he does overcome them. He will kill them, he will imprison them. This will be a time of great persecution of Gods children like never has been seen on earth. It is why John wrote revelation. To warn us, And help us continue to have faith. Knowing Jesus will win this battle. It is those who say God will protect us from harm who are dangerous. Yeah, those like you!
E
And I think you know we both agree with this. People have always been saved by faith. This is where many who proclaim dispensationalism miss the mark, they believe people were saved different. And with this you and I are both in agreement. They are wrong.
Aww but this is where we start to disagree.
Satan was ready to devour the child, Yes, mary had to flee. But what happens next, before the woman had to flee? The Child was caught up into his throne. So the fleeing did not occure until After the ascention of Christ. Then John sees later. where the woman had to flee, and was protected for 3 1/2 years. or times times and half a time, or 1260 days. all of which are prophetic in nature, as refering to the time of great tribulation, or time of Jacobs trouble.
And remember what Jesus said. It will not come by many wars and rumors of wars. Will not come because of great famine, or the ascension and descention of many kings and rulers and kingdoms. Or even after many natural disasters. it will start when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Which we are told will be commited by the
rince who is to come" which will come out of the "eople who destroy the city and temple: so this is what we have to look for. which has not happened yet.
Yes we do need to identify who the woman is. And who the seed is.
The woman gives birth to Christ. Scripture tells us this is Israel. who through the promise of abraham and the son of promise, would come the one who would be a blessing to all nations of the world.
And her offspring, which would be The messiah, and through him, all who would ever be saved by their faith in him, whether jew or gentile, slave or free, male or female. Or as John said, the ones who obey the commands of God and have the testimony of Christ.
You make things so complicated. We do not need to do this. The woman is the one who gave birth, that is all. The church did not give birth to Christ, Spiritual Isreal did not give birth to Christ, Christ gave birth to them. All men and women who will be in heaven with us from adam until the last man on earth were born of God. Through Christ, through the woman.
Natural Isreal was born of the flesh, through Abraham, and has been on Satans sites since they were formed. Spiritual Isreal is born of God. And is the offspring of Natural isreal, from whom came the promise.
Ok now you confuse me. Satan has had the power to keep people from Christ since the onset. He is still decieving people. More importantly, He is still in heaven accusing the saints, Scripture is clear on this.
Yes he can not overcome the church, Jesus said this, the gates of hell will not prevail. but that is not what John is seeing.
Who said they will not need the blood of the lamb to overcome? Mankind has always needed his blood to overcome. Nor more though, than that "golden age" as you call it, when we suffer persecution such as has never been seen. There is a reason Scripture from the old to the new tells us this is a time of trouble or tribulation such as has never been seen before, and will never be seen after, And only the return of Christ will put an end to it. as if he does not return, no life will survive the great destruction about to be poured out by the dragan and his military might.
Yes he does. But that is not the point, Satan, after a great battle with the archangel is cast out of heaven with his demons to the earth, He knows his time is short. why> he knows scripture better than both of us don;t you think? So this earth sees what? They greatest demonic influence the world has ever seen. The beast is not only influenced by satan like Hitler and the other great dictators of the world. But given power by him. There will be signs and miracles which will cause many to believe them. It is the greatest hoax of earths history. The prophet who precedes and the false messiah who had apparently suffered a fatal wound which was healed. remember gen 3? Where Christ is God incarnate The beast will be Satan incarnat. Also known as the son of perdition. What we are seeing today, and even in the past 2000 years will pale in comparison to this time frame.
Lol I am just having a discussion. If your weary and want to quite. thats fine with me, Your still my brother and do not want to cause friction between us.
Aww but this is where we start to disagree.
Satan was ready to devour the child, Yes, mary had to flee. But what happens next, before the woman had to flee? The Child was caught up into his throne. So the fleeing did not occure until After the ascention of Christ. Then John sees later. where the woman had to flee, and was protected for 3 1/2 years. or times times and half a time, or 1260 days. all of which are prophetic in nature, as refering to the time of great tribulation, or time of Jacobs trouble.
And remember what Jesus said. It will not come by many wars and rumors of wars. Will not come because of great famine, or the ascension and descention of many kings and rulers and kingdoms. Or even after many natural disasters. it will start when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Which we are told will be commited by the
rince who is to come" which will come out of the "eople who destroy the city and temple: so this is what we have to look for. which has not happened yet. Yes we do need to identify who the woman is. And who the seed is.
The woman gives birth to Christ. Scripture tells us this is Israel. who through the promise of abraham and the son of promise, would come the one who would be a blessing to all nations of the world.
And her offspring, which would be The messiah, and through him, all who would ever be saved by their faith in him, whether jew or gentile, slave or free, male or female. Or as John said, the ones who obey the commands of God and have the testimony of Christ.
You make things so complicated. We do not need to do this. The woman is the one who gave birth, that is all. The church did not give birth to Christ, Spiritual Isreal did not give birth to Christ, Christ gave birth to them. All men and women who will be in heaven with us from adam until the last man on earth were born of God. Through Christ, through the woman.
Natural Isreal was born of the flesh, through Abraham, and has been on Satans sites since they were formed. Spiritual Isreal is born of God. And is the offspring of Natural isreal, from whom came the promise.
Ok now you confuse me. Satan has had the power to keep people from Christ since the onset. He is still decieving people. More importantly, He is still in heaven accusing the saints, Scripture is clear on this.
Yes he can not overcome the church, Jesus said this, the gates of hell will not prevail. but that is not what John is seeing.
Who said they will not need the blood of the lamb to overcome? Mankind has always needed his blood to overcome. Nor more though, than that "golden age" as you call it, when we suffer persecution such as has never been seen. There is a reason Scripture from the old to the new tells us this is a time of trouble or tribulation such as has never been seen before, and will never be seen after, And only the return of Christ will put an end to it. as if he does not return, no life will survive the great destruction about to be poured out by the dragan and his military might.
Yes he does. But that is not the point, Satan, after a great battle with the archangel is cast out of heaven with his demons to the earth, He knows his time is short. why> he knows scripture better than both of us don;t you think? So this earth sees what? They greatest demonic influence the world has ever seen. The beast is not only influenced by satan like Hitler and the other great dictators of the world. But given power by him. There will be signs and miracles which will cause many to believe them. It is the greatest hoax of earths history. The prophet who precedes and the false messiah who had apparently suffered a fatal wound which was healed. remember gen 3? Where Christ is God incarnate The beast will be Satan incarnat. Also known as the son of perdition. What we are seeing today, and even in the past 2000 years will pale in comparison to this time frame.
Lol I am just having a discussion. If your weary and want to quite. thats fine with me, Your still my brother and do not want to cause friction between us.
P
Funny, it you need to study scripture so you do not make yourself look so bad.
As you have God protecting and feeding the Christian Jews and their families in the wilderness for 3 ½ years, wail the non-Jewish Christians and their families dealing with the tribulation and the antichrist for 3 ½ years.
You make God look unjust and unrighteous of having favourites because of what blood they have.
When God has made one blood all nations of men.
Yes, some maybe lots will be killed, but not all, so he does protect some, as it says.
1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You can’t have God having favourites because of what blood they have. If there are any favourites at all, it would be because of obedience, and that has nothing to do with if you die in Christ or not.
As you have God protecting and feeding the Christian Jews and their families in the wilderness for 3 ½ years, wail the non-Jewish Christians and their families dealing with the tribulation and the antichrist for 3 ½ years.
You make God look unjust and unrighteous of having favourites because of what blood they have.
When God has made one blood all nations of men.
Yes, some maybe lots will be killed, but not all, so he does protect some, as it says.
1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You can’t have God having favourites because of what blood they have. If there are any favourites at all, it would be because of obedience, and that has nothing to do with if you die in Christ or not.
E
No. I have God protecting all isreal for 3 1/2 years so the prophesy of God where they all get saved at the end because they repent and come to Christ comes true. and this pissing satan off so he goes after anyone who keeps the commands of God and is a witness for jesus.
thats what John was told. if you don;t like it, tough!
No. I have God being a fair god proving he is patient and giving everyone a chance to be saved, as he did me. We are told this time of jacobs trouble will cause isreal to repent because of God protecting them. Instead of just giving up on them, he gives them the same chance he gave us.
God still has a promse he made to jacob. Paul lets us know this in romans 11. that is why they are still to be beloved because of the promises. The church did not take over those promises.
Thats why he told us to endure to the end. I did not say they would all be killed, i said they would all be persecuted. but God says he will protect the woman (all of them) and the woman is isreal.
thats what John was told. if you don;t like it, tough!
No. I have God being a fair god proving he is patient and giving everyone a chance to be saved, as he did me. We are told this time of jacobs trouble will cause isreal to repent because of God protecting them. Instead of just giving up on them, he gives them the same chance he gave us.
God still has a promse he made to jacob. Paul lets us know this in romans 11. that is why they are still to be beloved because of the promises. The church did not take over those promises.
Thats why he told us to endure to the end. I did not say they would all be killed, i said they would all be persecuted. but God says he will protect the woman (all of them) and the woman is isreal.
P
What’s your point here?
That the seed keep the commandments of God, but the woman doesn't. You said in one of your posts that the Jews repent of their sins mid-week, and now you have them in the wilderness NOT keeping the commandments. A Jew that gets saved is more likely to keep the commandments. Its most of the Christians the church that feel they don’t need to keep the commandments, but some do.
Dangerous? I teach faith about the end times.
In Daniel they would be cast into the fire but said 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
And they came out, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
God is able to deliver us from the fiery furnace, But if not, we will not worship the image or take the mark.
And jesus said Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
He also saidMark 9:23 -, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
This is teaching faith and it’s not dangerous.
What do you teach about faith in the last days? “ZIP” a big fat “ZERO” “NOTHING” now that could be Dangerous.
Its time to put away put away childish things and get serious about serving the Lord
That the seed keep the commandments of God, but the woman doesn't. You said in one of your posts that the Jews repent of their sins mid-week, and now you have them in the wilderness NOT keeping the commandments. A Jew that gets saved is more likely to keep the commandments. Its most of the Christians the church that feel they don’t need to keep the commandments, but some do.
Dangerous? I teach faith about the end times.
In Daniel they would be cast into the fire but said 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
And they came out, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
God is able to deliver us from the fiery furnace, But if not, we will not worship the image or take the mark.
And jesus said Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
He also saidMark 9:23 -, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
This is teaching faith and it’s not dangerous.
What do you teach about faith in the last days? “ZIP” a big fat “ZERO” “NOTHING” now that could be Dangerous.
Its time to put away put away childish things and get serious about serving the Lord
E
Alot of assumptions here. And alot of ignoring what the passage says. When your ready to discuss it. let me know. If you want to continue to twist what I say and make assumptions which are false. there is no need to go further.
The people who endure do endure in Faith, the people who are martyred and suffer great tribulation do so because they have great faith and do not recieve the mark.
But the point is, The passage says God will protect the woman. So how could the woman be the church (true) when the passage says clearly the church will be persecuted, killed and suffer great tribulation. Seems like you want to ignore this fact!
The people who endure do endure in Faith, the people who are martyred and suffer great tribulation do so because they have great faith and do not recieve the mark.
But the point is, The passage says God will protect the woman. So how could the woman be the church (true) when the passage says clearly the church will be persecuted, killed and suffer great tribulation. Seems like you want to ignore this fact!