Jesus Christ; From 100% God, to 100% Flesh and Blood man, to 100% God?

[Whatdoesthebiblesay]

discipledave you can not prove Jesus was the son of God for all eternity. no scripture teaches that in the old testament. Even in the new testament we see in (Luke 1:35) the holy Child shall be called or will be called the Son of God. Shall be called or will be called is in the future tense proving before Christ came in the flesh He was not the Son of anything.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

To those who believe that Jesus is not God, and that God did not die on a cross for us, I have but two questions regarding these scriptures.
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

This is an example of The Word of God before The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who did Joshua Worship?

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Gen 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
Gen 18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
Gen 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Who is the Lord that Abraham bowed himself toward the ground to, who ate of the food that Abraham made, and talked to him about Sodom and Gamorrah?

God has always had an earthen vessel, so is it so hard to see that Jesus is the Word and holy flesh that is God.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

We are adopted sons of God, a holy spirit by measure. Jesus is Light in an earthen vessel, which all have no beginning. My guess is that if you saw The Lord that Abraham worshipped and that ate food, you would see the same face of Jesus that the Apostles see.

I love you all.

 

[NWL]

No it's not, because when Jesus uses this, he is speaking of equality.

Lol were going to go around in circles, we know Jesus wasn’t speaking about equality because as I’ve already said he explained how he and the father are one when he said “..I make request...concerning those putting faith in me...in order that they may all be one, that they also may be in union with us (John 17:20-22), it was one in the snse of purpose, that theyre always in agreement with each other.

For example a Husband and Wife are ONE FLESH, as God says they should be, but does it actually mean that they are literally ONE FLESH or does it mean they have one purpose in the marriage arrangement?
Jesus NEVER talked about being equal with God, he said the opposite “..The Father is greater than I am..” “ (John 14:28)

Can you explain to me how Jesus created ALL things, if he did not exist at one point and time?

If Jesus did create “ALL THINGS” in heaven and on Earth then that would also mean he created the Father and Holy Spirit, hence the reason why JW’s have translated it “All ‘other’ things’. God does not have a beginning because he's God, however we now Jesus had a Beginning, the Bible says that Jesus “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) We also know Jesus was the “Firstborn out of all creation” and that Jehovah created all things through him, so that would mean that “all things” ‘apart from himself were created by him” and we know he didn't create himself because Hebrews 3:4 says God was the source of creation.

Thats crazy. He prepared the way for me - John the baptist prepared the way for Jesus 1+1=2.

NO matter how much you want to paraphrase it like you do the entire Bible, I dont need it paraphrased.

Malachi 3:1 in NO WAY supports the Trinity, its completely crazy for you to even come up with that assumption. The Trinity doctrine is summed up below.

You see Jesus is NOT the Father, all three are “distinct/seperate” yet all three together are one God.
So you’re "non"Trinitarian and "non" Biblical assumption already fails as your own thinking doesn't even support your own belief’s.

“The true Lord” is Jehovah God, and “the messenger of the covenant” is Jesus Christ. The initial fulfillment of the prophecy took place when Jesus cleansed the temple. (Mark 11:15-17)

Just becuase Jehovah refers to he "himself" coming and also a Messenger- that being Jesus- being there doesn't mean they're the same people.Jehovah God throughout the whole of the Bible uses messenger's and refers them to himself!

For example in (Judges 6:12-16) it reads “..Then Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him and said to him: “JEHOVAH IS WITH YOU... Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid′i•an’s palm. Do I not send you?” 15 In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?..”


Now as we can clearly see Jehovah's ANGEL appeared, but would you look at that its Jehovah HIMSELF who is speaking later on in the verse, but because it was Jehovah who sent this Angel with a message its correct to say that it is Jehovah himself that is speaking even though it was this Angel that was truly speaking. So in like manner Jehovah can send Jesus as a messenger but because its Jehovah who sent him with a purpose its correct to say that the way is being prepared for Jehovah.

If Jehovah is Jesus and was talking about himself then he would of applied the verse to himself and John the baptizer only, instead of applying it to Himself, Jesus, and John the baptizer.

So he did not approve it, but allowed it? Why did he not stop people from doing so? Your trying to tell me I am silly, at the same time telling me Jesus allowed people to sin and not say anything?

No, you miss my point again, since Jesus BLATANLY didn’t approve of worship to anyone but the Father in Luke 4:8 then obviously the correct rendering of scripture such as Matthew 8:2 should be rendered “obeisance” hence the reason why Jesus in all the accounts DID NOT reprove them, because they weren’t worshipping him but showing obeisance, the same way you would bow or curtsey to the Queen of England.

The scripture you asked for - KJV (Matthew 18:26)“..The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him [His Master], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you all..”

Did this servant really worship his master? No of course not, hence the reason why most other translations leave out your so called one meaning of “Proskuneo” altogether and replaces it with the words prostrated/Begged/Implored or obeisance.

Thomas also heard Jesus says in prayer to Jehovah that he was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and John a companion of Thomas said about Jesus: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.." and not "GOD HIMSELF"

And no, the Jews accusation - That they thought he was making himself equal to God - that made them want to kill Jesus wasn't true, look and what Jesus said to them in reply and think to yourself would a man claiming equality with God say such a thing? Yes or No? And please remenber it was the Jews view that Jesus was making himself equal with the Father not Jesus.

(John 5:18, 19) "...On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because.. he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God...*Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

The Jews claim he is making himself equal with God and Jesus throws they're assumption STRAIGHT outta the window by saying the complete opposite!

 

[NWL]

Is it really logical, taking figuative books like Job to prove a literal creation? NO

I don’t find the book of Job to be too figurative, maybe you could enlighten me, or did you mean the book of Revelation, if you did I’m not using the book of revelation as proof of creation. If you did mean the book of Job do you then not believe God spoke those thing in Job 38:1-41 - “..And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say..”

Is it logical to assume that their was "NOTHING before him" means their actually was something?

New Living Translation (Col 1:17) “...He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together...”

The Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of all creation”, since God had no beginning he’s not part “of” creation and therefore wouldn’t be listed in any scripture about creation. But Jesus is. Jesus Christ is “of” creation, but “he that constructed all things is God” (Hebrew 3:4)

And again if Jesus, being one of the separate parts of the Godhead was truly before all things then that would mean he “Existed” or was “before” the Father or Holy spirit. Hence the reason why “other” is in the NWT “...Also, he is before all [other] things...” (Colossians 1:17)

Is it logical to assume or conclude that ALL thing in heaven and in earth" really mean something created "through" and not "BY" him?

Well what do the scripture tell us?

New Living Translation (Col 1:16) “...For through him God created...”

NASB (John 1:3) “...All things came into being through Him...”

English Standard Version (Col 1:16) “...all things were created through him and for him...”

Notice how all things were created through him, and not simply by him and also note how all things were created for him. Who was the source of the creation that created things through him and for him, any guess? It was his Father Jehovah, hence the reason why Jesus is the “Master worker” the same way a King would get a “Master worker” to build him his Kingdom.

I SAID: Also bare in mind Elohim is not the name for God but a "title" which is used to describe those including Jesus that had Godlike responsibilities. For instance at Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ’elo‧him′, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8.

Again Proof. You saying does not prove anything. I can show you 1000 passages were Elohim means God in plural form.

At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo•him′, and is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh′ ha•ʼElo•him′, “sons of God”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Psalm 8:5) “...You made him a little lower than the Angels...”

(Hebrews 2:7) "...You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him..."

What context have I failed to see at Psalms 8:5?? And At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo•him′ is used of men

(Psalm 82:1) “...God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges...”

(Psalm 82:6) “...I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High...”

You’re also still being evasive to my question to you and haven't really answered my other questions.

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the Old Testament before you’re so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)

 

[feedm3]

I don’t find the book of Job to be too figurative, maybe you could enlighten me, or did you mean the book of Revelation, if you did I’m not using the book of revelation as proof of creation. If you did mean the book of Job do you then not believe God spoke those thing in Job 38:1-41 - “..And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say..”

Yes I believe God spoke to Job. So your saying you believe literal stars started singing?

New Living Translation (Col 1:17) “...He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together...”

The Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of all creation”, since God had no beginning he’s not part “of” creation and therefore wouldn’t be listed in any scripture about creation. But Jesus is. Jesus Christ is “of” creation, but “he that constructed all things is God” (Hebrew 3:4)

The "FIRST BORN" is rank. NOT the first created. The first born sons have rank in inheritance. It is saying Jesus is above all. there is nothing above him. Just as the Bible tells us, all things are put under his feet, there is NOTHING that is not put under him.

Well what do the scripture tell us?

New Living Translation (Col 1:16) “...For through him God created...”

NASB (John 1:3) “...All things came into being through Him...”

English Standard Version (Col 1:16) “...all things were created through him and for him...”

Your still not making sense. If all things were made by, or through him, your still stuck with ALL things in heaven and in earth.

If they were ALL created by/thorugh him, then he is the creator, and he must be eternal.

Notice how all things were created through him, and not simply by him and also note how all things were created for him. Who was the source of the creation that created things through him and for him, any guess? It was his Father Jehovah, hence the reason why Jesus is the “Master worker” the same way a King would get a “Master worker” to build him his Kingdom.

Yet a king cannot find a mater builder to build him ALL things in heaven and in earth, and cannot find a master builder who is BEFORE ALL THINGS.

Your illustrations are pointless. You still are not justify how he did these things, and was before these things, yes is not eternal deity.

At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo•him′, and is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh′ ha•ʼElo•him′, “sons of God”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Psalm 8:5) “...You made him a little lower than the Angels...”

(Hebrews 2:7) "...You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him..."

What context have I failed to see at Psalms 8:5?? And At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo•him′ is used of men

Yes those in their context are fine. Yet your using them to prove Elohim does not Always mean the gods. So you show me passages where the context demands another interpretation.

Yet we are discussing Gen 1:1. How do those passages have any effect on that? They dont. So your still faced with why and who are the plural forms in Gen 1.

Sorry but, it could be other angels, is just baseless assumption to fit JW doctrine. We are not created in the imgae of angels, but the Image of God.

(

Psalm 82:1) “...God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges...”

(Psalm 82:6) “...I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High...”

You’re also still being evasive to my question to you and haven't really answered my other questions.

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the Old Testament before you’re so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)/QUOTE]

I have answered this, just because you wont accept it because your hardcore JW does not mean it has not been answered.

Here is another shorter answer: Jehovah IS the Most High ALONE. This is OT. Christ was not reveled fully. Neither was the HS. Jehovah is the name for a covenant God. Why would he mention the others of the Godhead who had not been revealed?

Now if you stop, all the "maybe if", "if you look at this way" and "here is a paraphrase" then maybe you can understand this.

I asked for you to show ONE Greek mss, with OTHER. You just pasted more passages from paraphrases.

This would mean you could not find one, so why if you know it is not in the original, do you keep trying to force it?

 

[NWL]

Yes I believe God spoke to Job. So your saying you believe literal stars started singing?

So let me get this straight, you believe God spoke to job but you don’t believe the things he said?

Also when referring to morning stars or stars as you call them they are Angels, the same goes for Sons of God, they too are Angels. Jesus also likens himself to as a morning star, an Angel

(Job 38:7) When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

(Revelation 22:16) “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”

Anyway it “is” jw’s belief that Jesus was the one Jehovah was talking to in Gen, “let us make man in our image”, since Jesus is the Image of God and also Gods Master worker it makes sense that this is who Jehovah was talking to.

As I said before Jehovah “could” of also been talking to the Angels as well as Jesus, whether he was or wasn’t talking to the Angels doesn’t matter to me or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but we can be confident that the Angels were around at the creation of man and the earth by looking at Job 38:7, but even if they somehow weren’t, it wouldn't effect Jehovah witnesses doctrine the slightest

Just because Jehovah was talking to Jesus saying “let us make man in our Image” isn’t proof that they are part of a trinity or that Jesus is God.

The "FIRST BORN" is rank. NOT the first created. The first born sons have rank in inheritance. It is saying Jesus is above all. there is nothing above him. Just as the Bible tells us, all things are put under his feet, there is NOTHING that is not put under him.

Yes yes I’ve heard the same crazy Trinitarian explanation many times, you can twist and say the meaning is whatever you want, however what you can’t escape from is that the verse says that Jesus is “Of” creation, so let’s say you are right (which you aren't) and the text meant that Firstborn means firstborn in rank, let’s have a look and see how the scripture would read;

(Colossians 1:15) “...He is the image of the invisible God, the Highest "of" all creation...”

You see even with the Trinitarian rendering of the scripture Jesus is still “OF" creation, meaning he is created and part of creation, meaning he can’t be God, Almighty and eternal God isn’t "OF" creation because he was never created.

Your still not making sense. If all things were made by, or through him, your still stuck with ALL things in heaven and in earth. If they were ALL created by/through him, then he is the creator, and he must be eternal.

And you wonder why I have to keep trying to illustrate things to you. Just because all things were created through him does not mean he is eternal.

When a architect plans and draws out a house and then hires builders to come and build it for them the original architect who planned the house can rightfully say to people "I built this house", but in reality he didn’t really build it did he, the construction workers did.

In like manner Jehovah is the architect/creator, but Jesus was the Builder/Master Worker, So Jehovah God, “through” Jesus the builder, created all things. Please re-read the scripture below.

New Living Translation (Col 1:16) “...for through him [Jesus the Builder], God [the Architect] created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth... Everything was created through him [Jesus the Builder,] and for him [by Jehovah the architect].”

And as I said before God isnt "of" creation so obviously wouldn’t be listed with creation in Col 1, and also as I said before for your own sake Jesus can't be “before all things” but “before all "other" things”, otherwise that would mean Jesus was before the Father and Holy Spirit, which can’t be. Your arguing against your own points and you can’t even see it.

It’s good you can at least admit that in the old testament that people believed in the "One God Jehovah", considering that look at what Jesus said when he came to Earth and he spoke to a samaritan woman at a well.

(John 4:22) "YOU worship what YOU do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews"

And guess what the Jew, as you admitted, had only One God who was Jehovah.

(Deut 6:4) “...Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah..."

 

[DiscipleDave]

You see Jesus is NOT the Father, all three are “distinct/seperate” yet all three together are one God.

Love the picture above, it is quite True. and a huge false doctrine that is being taught today is that Jesus is the Father, as if they (those who teach such things) have gained some kind of secret knowledge that only the Saved will learn, lol. i have written a document about this false doctrine that is being taught in this generation. Please click HERE to read it. Thanks and God Bless All Of You.

^i^

 

[feedm3]

So let me get this straight, you believe God spoke to job but you don’t believe the things he said?

It means I know how to use the common sense God gave me, and realize when something is figurative. It also means I dont have to reach into the most figurative expressions to support what I teach.

I can do it, with plain to understand passages, and guess? NO PARAPHRASES

which you will not deall with anything BUT a paraphrase.

Anyway it “is” jw’s belief that Jesus was the one Jehovah was talking to in Gen, “let us make man in our image”, since Jesus is the Image of God and also Gods Master worker it makes sense that this is who Jehovah was talking to.

As I said before Jehovah “could” of also been talking to the Angels as well as Jesus, whether he was or wasn’t talking to the Angels doesn’t matter to me or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but we can be confident that the Angels were around at the creation of man and the earth by looking at Job 38:7, but even if they somehow weren’t, it wouldn't effect Jehovah witnesses doctrine the slightest

Just because Jehovah was talking to Jesus saying “let us make man in our Image” isn’t proof that they are part of a trinity or that Jesus is God.

No the proof is that he allowed himself to be called "my God", allowed himself to be worhipped, made himself equal with God, and created everything in the earth and in the heaven, and he was BEFORE ALL things.

NOT before GOD, because he also is eternal. NOt before the HS, he Also is ETERNAL.

You STILL HAVE NOT PROVIDED ONE MSS WITH TEH WORD "OTHER" TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU SAY.

SO I ask again.

Why are you trying to convince me with what you know is not in scripture?

Why did Jesus allow Thomas to call him "my Lord AND my God"

New Question: Why is AND (kia conjunction joining Lord and God) IN the Greek?

Your Paraphrase did not answer that.

You say prokenio is not always meaning worship. I asked for ONE passage to back this up. Where is it?


So when you answer these we can move on, until then, Ill be waiting.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I don’t find the book of Job to be too figurative, maybe you could enlighten me, or did you mean the book of Revelation, if you did I’m not using the book of revelation as proof of creation. If you did mean the book of Job do you then not believe God spoke those thing in Job 38:1-41 - “..And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say..”



New Living Translation (Col 1:17) “...He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together...”

The Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of all creation”, since God had no beginning he’s not part “of” creation and therefore wouldn’t be listed in any scripture about creation. But Jesus is. Jesus Christ is “of” creation, but “he that constructed all things is God” (Hebrew 3:4)

And again if Jesus, being one of the separate parts of the Godhead was truly before all things then that would mean he “Existed” or was “before” the Father or Holy spirit. Hence the reason why “other” is in the NWT “...Also, he is before all [other] things...” (Colossians 1:17)

Is it logical to assume or conclude that ALL thing in heaven and in earth" really mean something created "through" and not "BY" him?

Well what do the scripture tell us?

New Living Translation (Col 1:16) “...For through him God created...”

NASB (John 1:3) “...All things came into being through Him...”

English Standard Version (Col 1:16) “...all things were created through him and for him...”

Notice how all things were created through him, and not simply by him and also note how all things were created for him. Who was the source of the creation that created things through him and for him, any guess? It was his Father Jehovah, hence the reason why Jesus is the “Master worker” the same way a King would get a “Master worker” to build him his Kingdom.





At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo•him′, and is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh′ ha•ʼElo•him′, “sons of God”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Psalm 8:5) “...You made him a little lower than the Angels...”

(Hebrews 2:7) "...You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him..."

What context have I failed to see at Psalms 8:5?? And At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo•him′ is used of men

(Psalm 82:1) “...God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges...”

(Psalm 82:6) “...I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High...”

You’re also still being evasive to my question to you and haven't really answered my other questions.

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the Old Testament before you’re so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)

Over the next couple days I'll be focusing my attention on your posts. There's a lot of material that can and should be said, so instead of making this one comprehensive post, I'll break the response down by separate posts.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I don’t find the book of Job to be too figurative, maybe you could enlighten me, or did you mean the book of Revelation, if you did I’m not using the book of revelation as proof of creation. If you did mean the book of Job do you then not believe God spoke those thing in Job 38:1-41 - “..And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say..”



New Living Translation (Col 1:17) “...He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together...”

The Bible says Jesus was the “firstborn of all creation”, since God had no beginning he’s not part “of” creation and therefore wouldn’t be listed in any scripture about creation. But Jesus is. Jesus Christ is “of” creation, but “he that constructed all things is God” (Hebrew 3:4)

And again if Jesus, being one of the separate parts of the Godhead was truly before all things then that would mean he “Existed” or was “before” the Father or Holy spirit. Hence the reason why “other” is in the NWT “...Also, he is before all [other] things...” (Colossians 1:17)

Is it logical to assume or conclude that ALL thing in heaven and in earth" really mean something created "through" and not "BY" him?

Well what do the scripture tell us?

New Living Translation (Col 1:16) “...For through him God created...”

NASB (John 1:3) “...All things came into being through Him...”

English Standard Version (Col 1:16) “...all things were created through him and for him...”

Notice how all things were created through him, and not simply by him and also note how all things were created for him. Who was the source of the creation that created things through him and for him, any guess? It was his Father Jehovah, hence the reason why Jesus is the “Master worker” the same way a King would get a “Master worker” to build him his Kingdom.





At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo•him′, and is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh′ ha•ʼElo•him′, “sons of God”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Psalm 8:5) “...You made him a little lower than the Angels...”

(Hebrews 2:7) "...You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him..."

What context have I failed to see at Psalms 8:5?? And At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo•him′ is used of men

(Psalm 82:1) “...God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges...”

(Psalm 82:6) “...I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High...”

You’re also still being evasive to my question to you and haven't really answered my other questions.

3. Why do scriptures say that Jehovah ALONE is the Most High and not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Without the evasive action and also baring in mind that Psalms was in the Old Testament before you’re so called "Trinity" was taught or revealed to the Jews)

Section I: Understanding the Pronouns -- “in” Him,
“from” Him, “through” Him, and “for” Him
​

Just because it is said that “through” the Son the ages came into existence, does not somehow put Christ in an inferior position. This argument fails to come to terms with the way ancient writers use the prepositions “in,” “through,” “for,” and “from” in reference to creation.

Paul speaks of God not only as the efficient cause “from” (Rom 11.36, 1 Cor 8.6, 1 Cor 11.12, 2 Cor 5.18), but also as the instrumental cause “through”/”in” (Rom 11.36, Heb 2.10, Acts 17.28, Eph 3.9), as well as the final cause “for” (Rom 11.36, 1 Cor 8.6).

All three of the prepositional phrases in Romans 11.36 also occur in 1 Cor 8.6, “To us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through Him.” Paul here assigns two of the causal functions of God to the Father, and the third to Christ.

One should not infer from 1 Cor 8.6 that the causal functions assigned there to God the Father are not also applicable to the Son or vice versa, because the apostle also says of Christ elsewhere, that all things in heaven and on earth were created “in,” “through,” and “for” Him (Col 1.16). It is here that Paul assigns the final cause (“for&#8221 to the Son, where it was the Father that was spoken about in 1 Cor 8.6 as the one whom the creation was “for.”

In Heb 1.2 the Son is spoken of as the one “through” whom God made the ages, and yet in the very same discourse, just one chapter later, it is God who is also spoken of as the one “through” whom the ages were made (Heb 2.10). This alone makes it very unlikely that just because it is “through” the Son that all things have come into existence, that it somehow implies an inferior position, if anything this infers an equality. In this very same epistle, Christ is also described as the Creator, more specifically, using the same verbiage that the OT uses of YHWH (Hebrews 1.10). It should also be pointed out that the language of “founding” (Job 38.4; Ps 8.3, 24.1-2, 78.69, 89.11, 104.5, 119.90; Prov 3.19, 8.29; Isa 40.21, 48.13, 51.13-16; Amos 9.6; Zech 12.1), as well is “the work of your [God's] hands” (Ps 8.6; Isa 64.8) is standard biblical rhetoric for God’s work as Creator, and more broadly of all that God does (Ps 28.5, 92.4, 111.7, 138.8, 143.5), and yet here at Hebrews 1.10, this exact language is used of none other than Christ. This of course goes hand-in-hand with Revelation 3.14, which, rather than describing Christ as a part of God’s created order, describes Him as the Beginning, the originator of God’s created order.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Lol were going to go around in circles, we know Jesus wasn’t speaking about equality because as I’ve already said he explained how he and the father are one when he said “..I make request...concerning those putting faith in me...in order that they may all be one, that they also may be in union with us (John 17:20-22), it was one in the snse of purpose, that theyre always in agreement with each other.

For example a Husband and Wife are ONE FLESH, as God says they should be, but does it actually mean that they are literally ONE FLESH or does it mean they have one purpose in the marriage arrangement?
Jesus NEVER talked about being equal with God, he said the opposite “..The Father is greater than I am..” “ (John 14:28)



If Jesus did create “ALL THINGS” in heaven and on Earth then that would also mean he created the Father and Holy Spirit, hence the reason why JW’s have translated it “All ‘other’ things’. God does not have a beginning because he's God, however we now Jesus had a Beginning, the Bible says that Jesus “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) We also know Jesus was the “Firstborn out of all creation” and that Jehovah created all things through him, so that would mean that “all things” ‘apart from himself were created by him” and we know he didn't create himself because Hebrews 3:4 says God was the source of creation.



Malachi 3:1 in NO WAY supports the Trinity, its completely crazy for you to even come up with that assumption. The Trinity doctrine is summed up below.

You see Jesus is NOT the Father, all three are “distinct/seperate” yet all three together are one God.
So you’re "non"Trinitarian and "non" Biblical assumption already fails as your own thinking doesn't even support your own belief’s.

“The true Lord” is Jehovah God, and “the messenger of the covenant” is Jesus Christ. The initial fulfillment of the prophecy took place when Jesus cleansed the temple. (Mark 11:15-17)

Just becuase Jehovah refers to he "himself" coming and also a Messenger- that being Jesus- being there doesn't mean they're the same people.Jehovah God throughout the whole of the Bible uses messenger's and refers them to himself!

For example in (Judges 6:12-16) it reads “..Then Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him and said to him: “JEHOVAH IS WITH YOU... Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid′i•an’s palm. Do I not send you?” 15 In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?..”


Now as we can clearly see Jehovah's ANGEL appeared, but would you look at that its Jehovah HIMSELF who is speaking later on in the verse, but because it was Jehovah who sent this Angel with a message its correct to say that it is Jehovah himself that is speaking even though it was this Angel that was truly speaking. So in like manner Jehovah can send Jesus as a messenger but because its Jehovah who sent him with a purpose its correct to say that the way is being prepared for Jehovah.

If Jehovah is Jesus and was talking about himself then he would of applied the verse to himself and John the baptizer only, instead of applying it to Himself, Jesus, and John the baptizer.



No, you miss my point again, since Jesus BLATANLY didn’t approve of worship to anyone but the Father in Luke 4:8 then obviously the correct rendering of scripture such as Matthew 8:2 should be rendered “obeisance” hence the reason why Jesus in all the accounts DID NOT reprove them, because they weren’t worshipping him but showing obeisance, the same way you would bow or curtsey to the Queen of England.

The scripture you asked for - KJV (Matthew 18:26)“..The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him [His Master], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you all..”

Did this servant really worship his master? No of course not, hence the reason why most other translations leave out your so called one meaning of “Proskuneo” altogether and replaces it with the words prostrated/Begged/Implored or obeisance.

Thomas also heard Jesus says in prayer to Jehovah that he was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and John a companion of Thomas said about Jesus: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.." and not "GOD HIMSELF"

And no, the Jews accusation - That they thought he was making himself equal to God - that made them want to kill Jesus wasn't true, look and what Jesus said to them in reply and think to yourself would a man claiming equality with God say such a thing? Yes or No? And please remenber it was the Jews view that Jesus was making himself equal with the Father not Jesus.

(John 5:18, 19) "...On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because.. he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God...*Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

The Jews claim he is making himself equal with God and Jesus throws they're assumption STRAIGHT outta the window by saying the complete opposite!

Section II: Christ an angel?
Please, try again.​

(1) In Hebrews 1 the author asks a series of questions beginning at v. 5, “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you’? Or again, ‘I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son’?” The central point for asking this series of questions is not to indicate that Christ is one of the angels, but to prove that the Son of God, who is the heir of all things (v. 2), and the exact representation of God’s nature (v. 3), is superior to the angels (v. 4). The author is making a contrast between the angels, and the One who is superior… what God spoke of Christ, He never said of any angel. Consider the chiastic literary style,

(A) For to which of the angels did He ever say (v. 5a)

— (B) And again (v. 5b)

— — (C) And again when He brings the Firstborn into the world, He says (v. 6)

— — — (D) And of the angels He says (v. 7)

— — (C’) But of the Son He says (vv. 8-9)

— (B’) And (vv. 10-12)

(A’) But to which of the angels has He ever said (v. 13)

Lines A and A’ are parallel, using the words “to which of the angels has God/He ever said.” Lines B and B’ are also parallel, using the simplest introductory formula “and.” Lines C and C’ are parallel because they both use synonymous designations for Christ, “the Firstborn” and “the Son." The use of “again” in both B and C advance the chiasmus forward and is dropped once the center line of the chiasmus, line D, is reached. The center line D contains a quotation about the angels (“and of the angels He says”) in contrast to the surrounding quotations about the Son. Everyone admits, as they must, that the quotations in lines A, B, C, C’, and A’ are about the Son. But then, given the literary arrangement of the catena into this chiasmus, we must acknowledge that the quotation in line B’, like the one in line B, is also about the Son.

A, B, C, C’, B’, A’ are things spoken of the Son, but line D (v. 7) is applied to the angels. It should be pointed out that lines D (“Of the angels He says”), and C’ (“But of the Son He says”) stand in direct opposition to one another ("Of the angels He says... But of the Son He says..."). Found later in the very same discourse (Hebrews 2.5-8), the author again makes strong distinction between the Son and the angels by placing the two in opposition yet again,

“For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere, ‘What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for Him? You made Him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned Him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under His feet.’”
​

(2) Daniel 10.13 identifies Michael the Archangel (whom you believe to be Jesus) to be “one of the chief princes.” If Daniel here identifies Michael as one of the chief princes, then we also know that there are a number of other chief angels of the same rank. This is impossible for Christ, because He is not one of a category, but the one and only unique Son of God, no others compared to Him.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Lol were going to go around in circles, we know Jesus wasn’t speaking about equality because as I’ve already said he explained how he and the father are one when he said “..I make request...concerning those putting faith in me...in order that they may all be one, that they also may be in union with us (John 17:20-22), it was one in the snse of purpose, that theyre always in agreement with each other.

For example a Husband and Wife are ONE FLESH, as God says they should be, but does it actually mean that they are literally ONE FLESH or does it mean they have one purpose in the marriage arrangement?
Jesus NEVER talked about being equal with God, he said the opposite “..The Father is greater than I am..” “ (John 14:28)



If Jesus did create “ALL THINGS” in heaven and on Earth then that would also mean he created the Father and Holy Spirit, hence the reason why JW’s have translated it “All ‘other’ things’. God does not have a beginning because he's God, however we now Jesus had a Beginning, the Bible says that Jesus “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) We also know Jesus was the “Firstborn out of all creation” and that Jehovah created all things through him, so that would mean that “all things” ‘apart from himself were created by him” and we know he didn't create himself because Hebrews 3:4 says God was the source of creation.



Malachi 3:1 in NO WAY supports the Trinity, its completely crazy for you to even come up with that assumption. The Trinity doctrine is summed up below.

You see Jesus is NOT the Father, all three are “distinct/seperate” yet all three together are one God.
So you’re "non"Trinitarian and "non" Biblical assumption already fails as your own thinking doesn't even support your own belief’s.

“The true Lord” is Jehovah God, and “the messenger of the covenant” is Jesus Christ. The initial fulfillment of the prophecy took place when Jesus cleansed the temple. (Mark 11:15-17)

Just becuase Jehovah refers to he "himself" coming and also a Messenger- that being Jesus- being there doesn't mean they're the same people.Jehovah God throughout the whole of the Bible uses messenger's and refers them to himself!

For example in (Judges 6:12-16) it reads “..Then Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him and said to him: “JEHOVAH IS WITH YOU... Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid′i•an’s palm. Do I not send you?” 15 In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?..”


Now as we can clearly see Jehovah's ANGEL appeared, but would you look at that its Jehovah HIMSELF who is speaking later on in the verse, but because it was Jehovah who sent this Angel with a message its correct to say that it is Jehovah himself that is speaking even though it was this Angel that was truly speaking. So in like manner Jehovah can send Jesus as a messenger but because its Jehovah who sent him with a purpose its correct to say that the way is being prepared for Jehovah.

If Jehovah is Jesus and was talking about himself then he would of applied the verse to himself and John the baptizer only, instead of applying it to Himself, Jesus, and John the baptizer.



No, you miss my point again, since Jesus BLATANLY didn’t approve of worship to anyone but the Father in Luke 4:8 then obviously the correct rendering of scripture such as Matthew 8:2 should be rendered “obeisance” hence the reason why Jesus in all the accounts DID NOT reprove them, because they weren’t worshipping him but showing obeisance, the same way you would bow or curtsey to the Queen of England.

The scripture you asked for - KJV (Matthew 18:26)“..The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him [His Master], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you all..”

Did this servant really worship his master? No of course not, hence the reason why most other translations leave out your so called one meaning of “Proskuneo” altogether and replaces it with the words prostrated/Begged/Implored or obeisance.

Thomas also heard Jesus says in prayer to Jehovah that he was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and John a companion of Thomas said about Jesus: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.." and not "GOD HIMSELF"

And no, the Jews accusation - That they thought he was making himself equal to God - that made them want to kill Jesus wasn't true, look and what Jesus said to them in reply and think to yourself would a man claiming equality with God say such a thing? Yes or No? And please remenber it was the Jews view that Jesus was making himself equal with the Father not Jesus.

(John 5:18, 19) "...On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because.. he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God...*Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

The Jews claim he is making himself equal with God and Jesus throws they're assumption STRAIGHT outta the window by saying the complete opposite!

προσκυνέω –
Worship, or Obseisance?​

While it is true that προσκυνέω (proskuneo) can refer to obeisance, honor, and reverence, this term is also the most often utilized term in the New Testament for “worship.” The usage of προσκυνέω as it is found in Hebrews 1.6 can only refer to true genuine worship. The author of the Book of Hebrews draws from a couple different OT passages (Deuteronomy 32.43 LXX, Psalm 96.7 LXX), both of which are in reference to none other than YHWH. In Deuteronomy 32.34-43 the Lord claims that He alone is God (vv. 37, 39), and that He will take vengeance on His enemies and rescue His people. The broader theme is a warning to Israel not to abandon the Lord for any other god (Deuteronomy 31.24-30). Since the passage as it is found in the OT is speaking of giving worship to YHWH, by applying this quotation to Christ, the author of Hebrews is affirming that Christ is the object of worship in and to the same degree that YHWH is. But that’s not all!

We can examine the way in which God the Father receives worship and compare that to all other kinds of proskuneo. This then ought to provide a line of demarcation that boldly identifies a distinction between the Creator as the object of true worship and the creature who is called to do the worshiping.

How then is the Father worshiped? One can scarcely imagine higher worship than that of the heavenly scene found in Revelation 4.8-11:

"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within ; and day and night they do not cease to say, "holy , holy, holy is the Lord God , the Almighty, who was and who is and is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."
​

We read that worthiness, glory, honor, and power are ascribed to Him who sits upon the throne. We also see the elders prostrating themselves before Him. Surely this is worship that is suitable only for the divine! Therefore, if the Unitarian position is to be understood as a correct assessment of biblical teaching, we ought not see anyone else receive this kind of adoration, praise, exaltation, and worship. But is that the case? Revelation 5:8-14 states,

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped."
​

While it is certainly true that many human persons other than the incarnate Son receive proskuneo in Scripture, those instances do not in any way parallel the proskuneo due to God. However, in the above text we see the same exact kind of worship being given to both to God and to the Lamb; worthiness, power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise. We see the elders, the angels, and all other creatures prostrating themselves before the Lamb to worship. Most striking is the comprehensive description of those who were worshiping the Lamb: every single creature. If the Lord Christ was a mere creature He would have been included among those worshiping, but instead He is declared to be the object of worship of all of creation. This heavenly scene painted by John makes it all the more clear, and gives depth to the verbiage of Hebrews 1.6, "let all of God's angels worship Him."

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Lol were going to go around in circles, we know Jesus wasn’t speaking about equality because as I’ve already said he explained how he and the father are one when he said “..I make request...concerning those putting faith in me...in order that they may all be one, that they also may be in union with us (John 17:20-22), it was one in the snse of purpose, that theyre always in agreement with each other.

For example a Husband and Wife are ONE FLESH, as God says they should be, but does it actually mean that they are literally ONE FLESH or does it mean they have one purpose in the marriage arrangement?
Jesus NEVER talked about being equal with God, he said the opposite “..The Father is greater than I am..” “ (John 14:28)



If Jesus did create “ALL THINGS” in heaven and on Earth then that would also mean he created the Father and Holy Spirit, hence the reason why JW’s have translated it “All ‘other’ things’. God does not have a beginning because he's God, however we now Jesus had a Beginning, the Bible says that Jesus “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) We also know Jesus was the “Firstborn out of all creation” and that Jehovah created all things through him, so that would mean that “all things” ‘apart from himself were created by him” and we know he didn't create himself because Hebrews 3:4 says God was the source of creation.



Malachi 3:1 in NO WAY supports the Trinity, its completely crazy for you to even come up with that assumption. The Trinity doctrine is summed up below.

You see Jesus is NOT the Father, all three are “distinct/seperate” yet all three together are one God.
So you’re "non"Trinitarian and "non" Biblical assumption already fails as your own thinking doesn't even support your own belief’s.

“The true Lord” is Jehovah God, and “the messenger of the covenant” is Jesus Christ. The initial fulfillment of the prophecy took place when Jesus cleansed the temple. (Mark 11:15-17)

Just becuase Jehovah refers to he "himself" coming and also a Messenger- that being Jesus- being there doesn't mean they're the same people.Jehovah God throughout the whole of the Bible uses messenger's and refers them to himself!

For example in (Judges 6:12-16) it reads “..Then Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him and said to him: “JEHOVAH IS WITH YOU... Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid′i•an’s palm. Do I not send you?” 15 In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?..”


Now as we can clearly see Jehovah's ANGEL appeared, but would you look at that its Jehovah HIMSELF who is speaking later on in the verse, but because it was Jehovah who sent this Angel with a message its correct to say that it is Jehovah himself that is speaking even though it was this Angel that was truly speaking. So in like manner Jehovah can send Jesus as a messenger but because its Jehovah who sent him with a purpose its correct to say that the way is being prepared for Jehovah.

If Jehovah is Jesus and was talking about himself then he would of applied the verse to himself and John the baptizer only, instead of applying it to Himself, Jesus, and John the baptizer.



No, you miss my point again, since Jesus BLATANLY didn’t approve of worship to anyone but the Father in Luke 4:8 then obviously the correct rendering of scripture such as Matthew 8:2 should be rendered “obeisance” hence the reason why Jesus in all the accounts DID NOT reprove them, because they weren’t worshipping him but showing obeisance, the same way you would bow or curtsey to the Queen of England.

The scripture you asked for - KJV (Matthew 18:26)“..The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him [His Master], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you all..”

Did this servant really worship his master? No of course not, hence the reason why most other translations leave out your so called one meaning of “Proskuneo” altogether and replaces it with the words prostrated/Begged/Implored or obeisance.

Thomas also heard Jesus says in prayer to Jehovah that he was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and John a companion of Thomas said about Jesus: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.." and not "GOD HIMSELF"

And no, the Jews accusation - That they thought he was making himself equal to God - that made them want to kill Jesus wasn't true, look and what Jesus said to them in reply and think to yourself would a man claiming equality with God say such a thing? Yes or No? And please remenber it was the Jews view that Jesus was making himself equal with the Father not Jesus.

(John 5:18, 19) "...On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because.. he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God...*Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

The Jews claim he is making himself equal with God and Jesus throws they're assumption STRAIGHT outta the window by saying the complete opposite!

Section IV: Putting
John 14.28 back into context

​

The single most often cited text used in attempt to diminish the Deity of Christ is unequivocally John 14.28,

“You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater [“meizon”] than I.”
​

When Christ said, "the Father is greater than I," did He mean that the Father was greater than He according to His nature? Or did He mean the Father is greater than Him by virtue of His status in heaven, because when Christ uttered these words He was on earth and had taken on the status of a servant?
Notice that Christ had been comforting His disciples in regards to leaving the earthy realm, and entering into the Heavenly realm to be seated at the right hand of the Father. And it is in this discourse that Jesus says,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I do; and greater [“meizon”] works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” -- John 14.12-14
​

Christ, speaking to his disciples, has said that they would do the same kind of works, the same kind of miracles that He had been doing while on earth. But there’s something I’d like to point out pertaining to the term “meizon” (“greater&#8221. Though “meizon” has several various meanings behind it, such as, “a greater degree,” “more,” “position of greater status, dignity, and authority,” it’s noticeably pressing that it is never used to denote an ontological inferiority or ontological superiority.

And so Christ not only says that the disciples will be doing the works that He had been doing, but they'll wind up doing greater ["meizon"] works than He. This does not mean the disciples will be doing qualitatively superior works, for they simply will not be doing “better” works than He. "Meizon" here simply refers to the quantity of miracles, they'll be doing more miracles than Jesus had done, while performing the same kind of miracles as Jesus while He was on earth ("whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing") -- the same works, but a greater number. Quantity, not quality.

But then Christ gives the reason why the disciples will be able to do greater miracles than He -- "because I am going to the Father." What's the connection between the disciples doing a greater number of works, and Jesus going to the Father? Christ gives us the answer in vv. 13-14. He does not say, "Whatever you ask in My name, the Father will do," no, He says, "Whatever you ask in My name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in my name, I will do it." It is here that Christ makes Himself the object of prayer, but also, in doing so is presupposing the omni attributes of God. In order for Christ to know who's praying to Him, when they're praying to Him, and what they're praying for, He must be omniscient. And it doesn't matter how many are praying to Him, for Christ is directing His words to the disciples when He says, "If you ask Me anything in my name, I will do it," so that not only requires omniscience, but also requires omnipresence and omnipotence. In order for Christ to guarantee that He will answer all the prayers directed towards Him, He must have the ability to fulfill all requests.

In v. 23, Christ goes on to reiterate that He has these essential attributes that belong to God alone,

"Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.'"
​

Not only will the Father dwell and have fellowship with the Sheep, but so too will Christ dwell within them. Not only is He claiming to be omnipresent, but He's claiming to be present with every believer in the same sense, and to the same degree that the Father is. And in saying this, Christ is claiming to be ontologically equal to the Father -- He was and is just as present with every believer as the Father is; therefore, just as omnipresent as the Father is.

So in what sense is the Father greater than the Son?

"You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
​

Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth. This meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (John 17.5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in coming to earth (Philippians 2.6), taking the form of a servant (doulos, the same word Jesus uses in John 13.16 and 15.20). Now Jesus was returning to the Father to regain His former glory, where He could accomplish all the wonderful things promised to the disciples in His final discourse. If the disciples had considered the import of Jesus' words, they would have realized the exaltation that awaited the Son, and would have rejoiced.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Section I: Understanding the Pronouns -- “in” Him,
“from” Him, “through” Him, and “for” Him
​

Just because it is said that “through” the Son the ages came into existence, does not somehow put Christ in an inferior position. This argument fails to come to terms with the way ancient writers use the prepositions “in,” “through,” “for,” and “from” in reference to creation.

Paul speaks of God not only as the efficient cause “from” (Rom 11.36, 1 Cor 8.6, 1 Cor 11.12, 2 Cor 5.18), but also as the instrumental cause “through”/”in” (Rom 11.36, Heb 2.10, Acts 17.28, Eph 3.9), as well as the final cause “for” (Rom 11.36, 1 Cor 8.6).

All three of the prepositional phrases in Romans 11.36 also occur in 1 Cor 8.6, “To us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through Him.” Paul here assigns two of the causal functions of God to the Father, and the third to Christ.

One should not infer from 1 Cor 8.6 that the causal functions assigned there to God the Father are not also applicable to the Son or vice versa, because the apostle also says of Christ elsewhere, that all things in heaven and on earth were created “in,” “through,” and “for” Him (Col 1.16). It is here that Paul assigns the final cause (“for&#8221 to the Son, where it was the Father that was spoken about in 1 Cor 8.6 as the one whom the creation was “for.”

In Heb 1.2 the Son is spoken of as the one “through” whom God made the ages, and yet in the very same discourse, just one chapter later, it is God who is also spoken of as the one “through” whom the ages were made (Heb 2.10). This alone makes it very unlikely that just because it is “through” the Son that all things have come into existence, that it somehow implies an inferior position, if anything this infers an equality. In this very same epistle, Christ is also described as the Creator, more specifically, using the same verbiage that the OT uses of YHWH (Hebrews 1.10). It should also be pointed out that the language of “founding” (Job 38.4; Ps 8.3, 24.1-2, 78.69, 89.11, 104.5, 119.90; Prov 3.19, 8.29; Isa 40.21, 48.13, 51.13-16; Amos 9.6; Zech 12.1), as well is “the work of your [God's] hands” (Ps 8.6; Isa 64.8) is standard biblical rhetoric for God’s work as Creator, and more broadly of all that God does (Ps 28.5, 92.4, 111.7, 138.8, 143.5), and yet here at Hebrews 1.10, this exact language is used of none other than Christ. This of course goes hand-in-hand with Revelation 3.14, which, rather than describing Christ as a part of God’s created order, describes Him as the Beginning, the originator of God’s created order.

The proper title to this should be Understanding the Prepositions -- “in” Him, “from” Him, “through” Him, and “for” Him. It was very late when I actually wrote this, and sent it up without double checking.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I thought it good to add this example of a certain way of reasoning. If there was ever a condition that did not yet have an appearance of godly sorrow, it doesn't mean that godly sorrow never existed in God before the appearing of it. Jesus may not have appeared to us until He did, but it doesn't mean that He began at the moment of His appearing from a specific perspective. Jesus had not a measure of the Holy Spirit, and we do, because we have a beginning and were created. The holy flesh of God has no beginning, because even the flesh of God existed before He put it on and revealed the example to us. God has free-will because He's always had the ability to live according to the flesh or Spirit. Dead flesh is holy flesh, and I'm talking about the power of flesh to motivate us .The earthen vessel is just a part of us, while the flesh is dead or dying. The holy flesh of God has always been powered by The Holy Spirit without measure, not the spirit powered by the flesh.

I love you all.

 

[NWL]

NOT before GOD [the Father] (I’m guessing you mean the Father), because he also is eternal. NOT before the Holy Spirit, he Also is ETERNAL.

There we go, were getting somewhere, you’ve just yourself explained “my” reasoning to you without even realising it

You see what you just said, that Jesus isn’t before the Father or Holy Spirit because they are both eternal, that’s my explanation of how Jesus is before ALL things, because since Jehovah is eternal it obviously didn’t mean him. The same way you believe that Jesus isn’t “before” the HS or the Father.

So considering that, Jw’s have put in the word [other] so that others don’t get confused as you’ve done. Jw’s understand that the word [other] wasn’t in the ancient scripts but we added it in for clarification sake so that people like you don’t get confused.

As I've already said for either one of our sides if Jesus was literally “before all things” than that would mean he was before Jehovah, based on my beliefs and he was before the HS and Father based on your beliefs. So with the word [other] inserted in people can easier understand that Jesus of course wasn’t “before” Eternal God but was “before all [other] things”

Why did Jesus allow Thomas to call him "my Lord AND my God".

Re-read one of my older post I’ve already explained.

Why is AND (kia conjunction joining Lord and God) IN the Greek? .

Please be more clear and specific in your question.

You say prokenio is not always meaning worship. I asked for ONE passage to back this up. Where is it?.

Again I have already answered this question. Here’s the answer again with more scriptures.

(Rev 3:9) "...Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying—look! I will make them come and do (proskyneo) obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you..." .

Now this Jesus talking to the Christians, so clearly he wasn't going to make humans worship other humans, so the word proskyneo here means obeisance.

(Gen 23:7) "...Thereupon Abraham got up and bowed down to the natives, to the sons of Heth..."

Now this is in Hebrew, however in Greek it also translates proskyneo. Now it’s clear Abraham didn't worship these people. No he showed them respect.

Now there are a number of examples of this in the scriptures.

So the point is when it comes to Jesus the word used towards him is proskyneo ,now some Bible's translate that “worship”, but the correct translation of the word proskyneo with regard Jesus is "obeisance", how do we know? The Bible tells us;

(Matt 4:10) “...Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! FOR IT IS WRITTEN, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is TO HIM ALONE you must render sacred service...”

So if Jesus says all worship goes to Jehovah than all other renderings of proskyneo with regard to Jesus must be translated “obeisance".

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Rev 3: 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
� KJV
Just because there is worship before our feet does not mean we are the target of that worship. We are higher at that point than those worshipping from lower, but never higher than God of course.

King James Version Acts 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

King James Version Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Only an evil spirit will accept worship, or being bowed down to, unless it's God with no beginning or measure.

I love you all.

 

[feedm3]

There we go, were getting somewhere, you’ve just yourself explained “my” reasoning to you without even realising it

You see what you just said, that Jesus isn’t before the Father or Holy Spirit because they are both eternal, that’s my explanation of how Jesus is before ALL things, because since Jehovah is eternal it obviously didn’t mean him. The same way you believe that Jesus isn’t “before” the HS or the Father.

Thats becuse when you talking about when something came into being, and your sepaking of eternal beings, it does not make sense.

They are all eternal. I cant explain who came before those who always existed.

Now concerning the world, heaven, and everything in them, Jesus is before them all. All things" means everything other than the eternal beings.

Jesus was NOT created.

So considering that, Jw’s have put in the word [other] so that others don’t get confused as you’ve done. Jw’s understand that the word [other] wasn’t in the ancient scripts but we added it in for clarification sake so that people like you don’t get confused.

People read it just fine. There is nothign confusing. JW's inserted (added to the word of God) what they needed to support what they teach.

You know that. Don't try to justify adding to the word of God. I understand some translators add words and put them in italics for clarification purposes.

Yet would I use an arugemnt based upon what is added in those italics? Of course not. Why are you?

You keep showing them aas if the JW insertion PROVES other passages wrong. It is funny. then you want to convince me that it's is only for clarification purposes, yet you use them to argue your point.

As I've already said for either one of our sides if Jesus was literally “before all things” than that would mean he was before Jehovah, based on my beliefs and he was before the HS and Father based on your beliefs. So with the word [other] inserted in people can easier understand that Jesus of course wasn’t “before” Eternal God but was “before all [other] things”

So say Jesus is before ALL things does not say he was before Jehovah, because ALL things is not pertaining to Eternal beings, read the context.

Re-read one of my older post I’ve already explained.

No, you already answered it, does not mean you validly explained anything. You ansewred, but with the wrong answer, so the questions still need to be rightly answered.

Please be more clear and specific in your question.

Clear enough. You understand it just fine. You just cant answer it.

You cant deal with "kia" join both adjectives together speaking to Jesus. I am sure your paraphrase cut it out or something.

Again I have already answered this question. Here’s the answer again with more scriptures.

(Rev 3:9) "...Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying—look! I will make them come and do (proskyneo) obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you..." .

This proves what?

First of all, the word worship is still here. It say worship "before thy feet", does not say who they are worshiping.

2nd, even if you did prove that it was them being worshiped, it is the Lord commanding them to do so.

We are not to allwo men to worship us, yet if the Lord told someone to, do you think you would be in sin?

YEt I still thing it is worshiping of him, at our feet, we will stand, they will not.

Still, this proves nothing, neither does it have any effect on teh passages of those who worshiped Jesus.

Your point is moot. You need to think of something else to try and twist all those passages that show Jesus was worshiped, and he allowed it.

Now this Jesus talking to the Christians, so clearly he wasn't going to make humans worship other humans, so the word proskyneo here means obeisance.

How do you know what he is and is not going to do? How does this prove that they were not worshiping Jesus.

(Gen 23:7) "...Thereupon Abraham got up and bowed down to the natives, to the sons of Heth..."

Now this is in Hebrew, however in Greek it also translates proskyneo. Now it’s clear Abraham didn't worship these people. No he showed them respect.

And? All your showing is that context plays a part in how we understand the words. Now show me what n the context of the passages pertianing to Jesus demand it be interpreted another way?

I can show yo umany pasages showing Jesus as God, so the context stands, and is fine for what we udnerstand. Your the one who is adding {words} everywhere to support what you believe.

So the point is when it comes to Jesus the word used towards him is proskyneo ,now some Bible's translate that “worship”, but the correct translation of the word proskyneo with regard Jesus is "obeisance", how do we know? The Bible tells us;

(Matt 4:10) “...Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! FOR IT IS WRITTEN, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is TO HIM ALONE you must render sacred service...”

So if Jesus says all worship goes to Jehovah than all other renderings of proskyneo with regard to Jesus must be translated “obeisance"

Wrong. Jesus allowed those to worship him, and allowed Thomas to call him God, what he says here to Satan is quoting Due, before he was revealed.

Second, while Jesus was on earth, he never told anyone to worship him. He was revealing himself. He allowed it, but never commanded it.

He himself worshiped God while on earth, he was human form.


You seem to the OT passages that point prayer worship etc to God, excludes the Godhead. You dont realize they are one.

We are under the NT, in which they have been revealed, and ONLY because JW rewrite passages, you've fallen into their trap.

 

[CER]

Jesus is not God. Why would God pray to Himself? Why would God lie when he said "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased?" Jesus said numerous times that he only did the will of His Father. And the miracle of the Resurection becomes meaningless if Jesus was divine; he had to be mortal flesh in order to die and be brought backto life as the first fruits of what we will experience in the Rapture. As for Jesus being an eternal spirit, we are all eternal spirits, for if we will have eternal life, we all existed before our physical bodies.

 

[cfultz3]

A very interesting topic. I used to believe the same way as you on this subject. After further study i now believe as you pointed out Jesus is fully God and fully man. As the bible teaches God became a man to save us because God as spirit (John 4:24) can not die (1Tim 1:17). However no scripture ever shows Jesus stripping off His humanity before or after His ascension. In fact i believe the bible gives enough evidence to prove Jesus is still fully God and fully man to this very day. When jesus was resurected as you pointed out He was not a spirit but flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) not flesh and blood as paul speaks of in (1Cor 15). Jesus rose from the dead both body and spirit but it was a new glorified body for after His resurection Jesus could vanish (Luke 24:31) appear in a different form (Mark 16:12) even walk through doors when shut (John 20:19). Our flesh and blood bodies can not do any of these things just as Christs flesh and blood body would not. But after His resurection in His new body He could.
Further evidence to prove Jesus is still a man is after His ascension in (Acts 1). We read of Stephen about to be stoned to death in (Acts 7:54-60) in verse 56 Stephen says ''behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.'' Notice the word (standing) present tense. Stephen saw a man in heaven and not just any man. THe Son of Man we know from the context of this passage to be Jesus Christ.
In (Col 2:9) Paul writes For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. many things to notice from this verse
1. The Him is speaking of Christ.
2. Deity dwells (dwells) present tense in bodily form.
3. This letter was written around A.D. 60 aproxamitly 30 years after Christs ascension, yet still speaks of Deity dwelling in bodily form.

In (1Tim 2:5) Paul says For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1. To be a good mediator is to be one equally identified with both parties something Christ is, fully God and fully man.
2. Paul speaks of our mediator being the man Christ Jesus.
3. Again Paul writing this letter to Timothy 30 something years after Christs ascension yet still speaks of Christ Jesus being a man.
4. If we are saved in the man Christ Jesus and He strips off His humanity what would happen to us?

God can not be over God. There is no chain of command in the Godhead. As God Jesus is over all things yet as a man He subjects Himself to God as we read about in (1Cor 15:27,28).

From what i can see Jesus is still fully God and fully man. Still in a body not the same body as before His death but in His new body after His resurection.
We can agree to disagree just thought i would point these things out if nothing else its interesting to look at. God bless

Is it not also written in Revelation that He still has the scars.......