The False Doctrine of OSAS

[Mediate]

Can I oppose sin without first comprehending its effects?

So the wheat is grown before it is harvested.

The bad wheat is burned, but the good wheat remains and is planted for more wheat!!

The same way no man is truly good, wholly good, nor wholly evil. No field on Earth gives wholly good wheat.

Each man has had compassion at some point. Each man has also had selfishness.

But then this is as on the earth; if I grow wheat for both me and for my neighbours, then my neighbour will eat as will I.

If I do not burn the bad crop, but eat it, will I get sick? (Doesnt it have consequence?)

But even if I die from my sickness, then the consequence is fulfilled

If I get better, then I have suffered a sickness and therefore the consequence.

So it depends on my body whether I get sick and die or whether i remain and live .

It also depends on my body how much wheat I can grow

But If I trust in God, then the wheat will take up all my fields and I can feed every person around me. I could not even eat all that wheat if I tried!

This is what the kingdom if God is like.

 

[cfultz3]

EG= blue Me = red

I am so very glad you brought this up.

The danger is when we say loss of works will result in loss of salvation.

For those who remain faithful until the end and when they are before God, they shall not lose salvation, but shall lose reward:

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Instead of realising that those who have true faith will work.

This is True. But it does not answer the reality of one who was righteous but lost his righteousness because he abandoned the walk and went into a life of moral wrongfulness:

(1Ki 8:32 KJV)
Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
(2Ch 6:23 KJV)
Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.
(Psa 11:7 KJV)
For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
(Isa 5:23 KJV)
Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
(Eze 3:20 KJV)
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Eze 18:20 KJV)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(Eze 18:24 KJV)
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
(Eze 18:26 KJV)
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
(Eze 33:12 KJV)
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
(Eze 33:13 KJV)
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
(Eze 33:18 KJV)
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
(2Ti 4:8 KJV)
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
(1Jn 2:29 KJV)
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
(1Jn 3:7 KJV)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No one will be perfect.

No not one. But nevertheless, we are to strive to enter into His Kingdom through the straight and narrow path. But when it comes to being perfect, we are to be equible (fair and just) when it comes to dealing with people. We are to have a love which shows no shadows, just as our Father is equiable to all and lets the rain flls upon both the wicked and the righteous. This is commanded, 'Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.' This is the perfection which is acheivable now. But if we are negative to our seemed enemies, are we really being perfect or are we still driven by the flesh?


Thus if works are essential to salvation, and no one will be perfect. we could never be saved by our works.

You say that our works, which we are to do under Christ's toil, is not essencial. But listen to our Lord's words here

Who do we wish to be (the extremes are given):

A faithful servant who did much under Christ's toil

Mat 25:20-21 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Or an unfaithful servenat who did nothing under Christ's toil

Mat 25:24-26 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Because we could never work enough to earn salvation.

But at least if one puts forwards the effort to produce fruit for their Lord, shall he not still be righteous and rewarded for his effort. But what if a servant in the House of Faith puts no effect forward, does this then not speak Truth about the necessity of faith having works?

Only a pharisee believes we can work to earn grace, and thus the blood of Christ, which washes away ALL OUR SIN, is not enough.

Only one who does not put an effort into Christ's toil is the one who shall not receive salvation through God's grace. Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself spoke of this. Do we listen to man, or do we listen to our Deliverer, the One showing us the way?

We have been told what one must do to maintain salvation. Let the reader decided if they shall be a fruitful or unfruitful servant. In the mercy of God, I beg you readers to put forth your foot into the doings of His Spirit, be led to do His works.

 

[feedm3]

One servant being spoken of here.

One servant with two choices.

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. <----Doing what? Obeying, serving...not a work, not a good deed to obey God.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. <----he will receive a reward for chooses the correct path.

45 But and if that servant (Still the same servant) say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; <----instead the servant chose to turn from the command and live in sin

46 The lord of that servant (disobedient servant still a servant, still has a Lord)will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers<---Servant or not, live like an unbeliever be punished like an unbeliever.

"That servant" was the same servant throughout this whole lesson. It showed the different fates he received by the different choices he made.

If we count ourselves as servants, then we learn from this we cannot choose to live in sin and expect the reward of the Godly, but instead wrath.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Show me where i called you a calvinist(learn to spell)
I never did, i simply said that OSAS beliefs originate from calvinism..

And this is different how? OSAS was taught in the NT By Christ, Paul, John, Peter and the rest. Calvanism did not start till when?

Legalism was started by the jews, Continued in great strength when the Roman Church enforced it with an iron fist. And is still alive and powerful today. But I don't go there. i would rather speak of Gods word .

Learn to read, and not make false assumptions sir. I did NOT call you a calvinist. You will find no such post.

What is the difference between saying someone is a calvanist. And saying their belief stems from calvanism? There is none. You still have not answered my origional question, and are still deflecting. why is that? Your the one that went of on a side street by not responding to the origional statment I made and going off on name calling, Yet you want to slam us for it?

I am not letting you get away with it. Here it is again..

OSAS does not teach this, a licentious Gospel which uses OSAS inappropriately teaches this.

Thus before you go slamming people on their belief system, you should try to understand what it is they believe.

And this question.



What do you have to say when the same passages says that one who practices unrighteousness has never seen God not have never known him?

Do we listen to john, and understand these people were never saved. Or listen to you, and say once apon a time someone who had a personal relationship with God and KNEW him, suddenly fell into sin and lost his relationship (salvation) and now do not know him.. See the major issue here?

Are you afraid to respond to my post? or do you want to continue to argue where someones belief came from?? (rolls eyes)

 

[RickShafer]

Lets just cut to the crux -

Is it your contention that the faithful servant is serving
by his/her own power?

Yes or No?

 

[cfultz3]

Lets just cut to the crux -

Is it your contention that the faithful servant is serving
by his/her own power?

Yes or No?

If this was a question to me, I will answer. If not, sorry.

Yes.

Freewill.

BUT

We are led by God to do those toils which pertains to His will.

As the servant has a choice to be faithful or unfaithfal with the works which has been given to him from Christ, so shall that servant by judged.

 

[RickShafer]

As the servant has a choice to be faithful or unfaithfal with the works which has been given to him from Christ, so shall that servant by judged.

Hi Chris,

the judgement you address, is it for rewards or salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG= blue Me = red

I am so very glad you brought this up.

The danger is when we say loss of works will result in loss of salvation.

For those who remain faithful until the end and when they are before God, they shall not lose salvation, but shall lose reward:

Why would they lose reward? They did not lose faith according to you, they remained faithfull. This makes no sense!

Instead of realising that those who have true faith will work.

This is True. But it does not answer the reality of one who was righteous but lost his righteousness because he abandoned the walk and went into a life of moral wrongfulness:

But this mocks of the knowledge of God. Who is righteous? Have you ever had a day where you can claim you were righteous enough to earn salvation and not need Grace? This is the point. No one can be righteous enough to earn it, Thus no one could be righteous, then all of a sudden become unrighteous. because we ALL are unrighteous.

What the difference is, Some showed a changed life (those with true faith) and some did not (those who mere belief but no faith)

And you just proved what I said about pride. How can you stand here and say on any particular day, if you were at one moment placed in front of God, not fall on your knees in complete utter horror because of the sin you did that very day??

No one will be perfect.

No not one. But nevertheless, we are to strive to enter into His Kingdom through the straight and narrow path. But when it comes to being perfect, we are to be equible (fair and just) when it comes to dealing with people. We are to have a love which shows no shadows, just as our Father is equiable to all and lets the rain flls upon both the wicked and the righteous. This is commanded, 'Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.' This is the perfection which is acheivable now. But if we are negative to our seemed enemies, are we really being perfect or are we still driven by the flesh?

What does this have to do with anything. Do you love the Lord your god with all your heart body and soul, and in so every thought desire and deed follows this path 100 % of the time? If not. do you not realise you are in sin and undeserving of anything from god? Do you love your neighbor (inclduing your enemy) as yourself? 100 % of the time? All these are sins which separate you from God just as much as the sin you like to condemn. So what makes you more righteous than the guy sitting next to you at any particular moment?


Thus if works are essential to salvation, and no one will be perfect. we could never be saved by our works.

You say that our works, which we are to do under Christ's toil, is not essencial. But listen to our Lord's words here

Who do we wish to be (the extremes are given):

A faithful servant who did much under Christ's toil



Or an unfaithful servenat who did nothing under Christ's toil
[/color][/b]

Any one in their right mind should want to be number one. Thats why we continue to run the race, and work out the result of our salvation with fear and trembling.

As for number two. You said nothing under Gods toil. Scripture said they would never have been saved, so whats your point. How can they lose a salvation they never had?

how about reality. Those who did alot vs those who did a little. Are those who did a little Not saved? and if not. what is the cut off between alot and a little? Does God tell us? And if not, how can you ever know you did enough? vs the guy sitting next to you?

Because we could never work enough to earn salvation.

But at least if one puts forwards the effort to produce fruit for their Lord, shall he not still be righteous and rewarded for his effort. But what if a servant in the House of Faith puts no effect forward, does this then not speak Truth about the necessity of faith having works?

And here we go again. No effort shows no faith. Can someone be saved if they do not have faith? We would both agree they would not. so why are you using them to argue your point? they never were saved, so how could they lose something they never had?

The point about the necessity to have works is not directed at those who have faith. James said we do work. it is directed at those who CLAIM to have faith, but only have mere belief. proven by the fact they are HEARERS and not doers. You are thinking James is speaking to all who have faith, when he is not, He is talking about those in the church who have a dead faith, or no faith at all. Again, can a person be saved with no faith?

Only a pharisee believes we can work to earn grace, and thus the blood of Christ, which washes away ALL OUR SIN, is not enough.

Only one who does not put an effort into Christ's toil is the one who shall not receive salvation through God's grace. Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself spoke of this. Do we listen to man, or do we listen to our Deliverer, the One showing us the way?

We listen to god. If we hear the word, and trust his promise, and have faith on it, we will be saved. We will be justified, We will be sanctified, We will never die, We will be ressurected. And as paul said, WE WILL WORK.

Your twisting it and trying to say we need works which scripture says we WILL have works, just like we WILL have everything else God promised.

Are you telling me the HS who was given to me by my FAITH in him will not help me walk in his direction, and stop me when I go astray? if you are, you do not have much faith in God do you?

We have been told what one must do to maintain salvation. Let the reader decided if they shall be a fruitful or unfruitful servant. In the mercy of God, I beg you readers to put forth your foot into the doings of His Spirit, be led to do His works.

yeah we have.

Call out on the name and you WILL BE SAVED.

Believe (fully) in the name of Jesus, and you will be saved.

Listen to the word, Hear the word, Chew on the word, and entrust that everything God says is true, And you will be saved.

Behold I stand at the door and Knock. Open it (your heart) and I will come in and dine with you.

Why do you want to add to these words your works, and boast of the fact your can be more righteous than anyone? and not admit you can never be righteous to earn anything, because you have been condemned already?

Scripture says those who are condemned are condemned because they did not believe in the name of the son/. It does not say they are condemned because they have faith, but did not do enough work to prove their faith was real. This is a ridiculous notion. taught only By satan.

 

[cfultz3]

As the servant has a choice to be faithful or unfaithfal with the works which has been given to him from Christ, so shall that servant by judged.

Hi Chris,

the judgement you address, is it for rewards or salvation?

From that quote-block of Scripture,

for the faithful servant = reward

for the unfaithful servant = salvation, seeing that he will be thrown out into out darkness. The same outer darkenss the spirits in the swines asked Jesus not to put them in.

 

[feedm3]

Lets just cut to the crux -

Is it your contention that the faithful servant is serving
by his/her own power?

Yes or No?

Not sure if this was directed to me, or the post above.

Yes we serve by our own freewill, yet the power comes from God. His word tells us what to do, thus giving us the power to do or not do what it says.

If you mean does God make me serve, or that my choices have nothign to do with me serving then no.

Everyone is responsible for themselves, God can not be the blame if I choose to live in sin, or not to live sin.

I Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

Do we have the power to purify souls?
Of course not.

Do we have the power to do what is necessary so God can purify our souls? YES

Because the "power" is knowing what to do, and that comes from the gospel of Christ.

Rom 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, it is the power of God unto salvation the Jew first and also the Greek.

 

[cfultz3]

Why would they lose reward? They did not lose faith according to you, they remained faithfull. This makes no sense!

for the same reason Scripture says they will lose reward, but yet they themselves shall be saved (stll have salvation).

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Are not the deeds done with the Spirit the works which shall remain. Surely the works of the faithful which are done in the flesh shall not remain. But if they shall remain, shall we then still be rewarded for those things which are done in opposition to His leading. Shall the time we walked passed a family looking for a handout be rewarded the same as having stopped and showed them undivided love.

 

[RickShafer]

From that quote-block of Scripture,

for the faithful servant = reward

for the unfaithful servant = salvation, seeing that he will be thrown out into out darkness. The same outer darkenss the spirits in the swines asked Jesus not to put them in.

I see two different scales being used here?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you said the faithful servant works for reward;
and the unfaithful servant works to not go to hell? or do you mean his works send him/her to hell?

 

[cfultz3]

I see two different scales being used here?
Correct me if I'm wrong but you said the faithful servant works for reward;
and the unfaithful servant works to not go to hell? or do you mean his works send him/her to hell?

His works, though a servant of the same lord (Lord), by what he did (inactivity), he sent himself to Hades. Why: because out of his own freewill, he chose to be unproductive with what he was told to do (under the toil placed upon him by Christ's toils).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why would they lose reward? They did not lose faith according to you, they remained faithfull. This makes no sense!

for the same reason Scripture says they will lose reward, but yet they themselves shall be saved (stll have salvation).

first off, if a faithfull servant will lose reward. how can any one get any reward at all? A faithfull servant should be at the top of the line for rewards should he not?


second, if faithfull servant will lose reward. (this still makes no sense) but an unfaithfull servant will get what? he is still a servant.

and think before you respond. because a person who is not born again is not a servant of God, but is under the cosmos system under stand, and is a servant to the flesh.

Are not the deeds done with the Spirit the works which shall remain. Surely the works of the faithful which are done in the flesh shall not remain.

But would at these times they not be faithfull? So how can you say the works done in these times are of a faithful servant?

But if they shall remain, shall we then still be rewarded for those things which are done in opposition to His leading. Shall the time we walked passed a family looking for a handout be rewarded the same as having stopped and showed them undivided love.

yes. so why do you deny his unfailing love and say someone can lose out on salvation. when in reality they just lose out on reward (that is if they are even saved at all?

There will be no unsaved people at the Bema Seat judgment of God. just like there will be no saved people at the great white throne judgment of God.

One is to give reward (or lack of reward) one is proclaim judgment on all who reject Christ.

 

[RickShafer]

His works, though a servant of the same lord (Lord), by what he did (inactivity), he sent himself to Hades. Why: because out of his own freewill, he chose to be unproductive with what he was told to do (under the toil placed upon him by Christ's toils).

O.K. What are the works that sent each on their separate ways?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His works, though a servant of the same lord (Lord), by what he did (inactivity), he sent himself to Hades. Why: because out of his own freewill, he chose to be unproductive with what he was told to do (under the toil placed upon him by Christ's toils).

see how sad people can twist the word of God, and can not even see it himself?

A person who is not a child of God can not be a servant to god. A person who would lose salvation would not longer be a servant to god, but a servant of sin and the flesh.

You are a servant of God, or a servant of satan, there is no inbetween.

The only difference is, Satan will not give out rewards for doing great works for him, you will all be judged righteously.

Where as God rewards his servants with love, to the faithful servant he rewards with gold silver precious stones, to the unfaithful servant he rewards with wood hey and straw. But to all his servants, they have been GIVEN eternal life. so their salvation will be secure, because it is not in self, but in Christ.

 

[cfultz3]

But this mocks of the knowledge of God. Who is righteous? Have you ever had a day where you can claim you were righteous enough to earn salvation and not need Grace? This is the point. No one can be righteous enough to earn it, Thus no one could be righteous, then all of a sudden become unrighteous. because we ALL are unrighteous.

As often as it is necessary, I will repeat once again: we do not lose salvation as soon as we sin, but the one who comes before God looking for mercy shall receive mercy. There is forgiveness with the Lord. But nonetheless, we are to at least strive to be as our Father.

But as to how is one righteous in the new Covenant, let us continue in Mathew 25:33-40. So, how are we righteous: displaying love undivided, inasmuch as we are told to be as our Father, equiable towards all.

 

[cfultz3]

A person who is not a child of God can not be a servant to god. A person who would lose salvation would not longer be a servant to god, but a servant of sin and the flesh.


But yet, they are said to both be a servant of the same lord. So yes, if one is not a child of God, he cannot be a servant either. So without much ado, that servant of that same house must have been a servant of God and having been a servant, he receives that which is to be handed out at the end, the reward for his actions: outer darkness. And the servant of the same house who was faithful, shall receive reward by those things which he has done: everlasting life.

 

[RickShafer]

Chris,
What are the works that sent each on their separate ways?

 

[cfultz3]

O.K. What are the works that sent each on their separate ways?

Jesus has given to each servant of His house a duty. To some, it is given to be a teacher, to others, a prophet, and yet to some a watchman, etc....

It is what we do with Christ's toil which He has given us to do which will determine if we are a faithful or unfaithful servant.

So, the works of that faithful servant, of which works he was comamnded to do, are the works which he shall receive reward for having done.

The works of that unfaithful servant, not doing what was commanded him under his lord, shall be that which shall judge him. And by that inactivity, we see that he was judged accordingly.

What is the value of a faith which is without obedeine towards his Lord? One who is not obedient in the things which falls under Christ's works, can they really say they love Him? Christ showed His love to the Father by the obedeince to His will. The end result : a work well done my Son. In that obedience of the Son, our Father, His Father, was well pleased.