The False Doctrine of OSAS

[rauleetoe]

Why were you so careless, as to ascribe to me something i did not nor would ever say: that we HAVE TO sin?

Why did you add a two letter word to discredit everything I posted, including scripture?

I think you saw what you wanted to see. Let's see what I said, compare to what John said, and see if you correct your error (?):



You're not without sin

You have sin.

you'll always have sin - as you admitted you'll never be perfect.

So, rauleetoe, I did I say we HAVE TO sin?

Or did I say we HAVE sin?
That we are not without sin?



Did John say the same thing I said? Is John a heretic or did you jump the gun?

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1 John 1:8

Neither John nor I said we HAVE TO SIN.

JOHN said we have sin. That if we claim to be without sin, we're lying.

Do you agree?



Did I not agree with you?
Do you think you're the only believer being sanctified?





Really?
Well aren't you religious.

Were they fighting and swearing and picking up women?
If not, then what's your problem?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." - Matthew 11:19



Is that a rhetorical question, or do you really think that's what I would suggest you do?





No, the enemy would love to create a new generation of Pharisees. He does it regularly (or they do it themselves).

Why is this necessary?: "a lazy spiritual sluggard"
This is the standard response from those engulfed in pietism.

Why don't you just worry about your own sin (you are not without sin according to John), and then you can worry about others'.

And a word to wise. If you see Christians at peace, secure in Christ, try not to get all riled up the way you do. You're likely wrong in your unrighteous judgments 99% of the time.

The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?" - Luke 5:30

When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" - Mark 2:16

I get not riled up when others who are Christ followers, drink..go to bars..whatnot..
I get 'riled up' as you say Ms. Marianna, when those people look down upon me when they invite me to go to a hookah bar..to discuss scripture..theology, etc..and i am clearly not ok and uncomfortable with that..and they say, well if you do not wish to go meet me at this hookah bar(i do not smoke anymore,nor want to start again or be around the 2nd hand smoke) that i am wasting their time and do not wish to fellowship. Is that fair? Tell me if you think that is..
That's not christianity at peace, that is someone attempting to use their so called liberty to impose it on someone else..that is not loving..and certainly is not chrsitlike..have you ever read romans 14? I suggest you do so as a refresher, because it speaks of those who look down on some who have strict diets(vegans/vegetarians,etc. I used to be one and was judged for not eating meat at the time by some of the 'free christians') It can also be applied to those who feel free to have a beer. Trust me, i of all people would love a cold one after a long hard day, but for one, it costs money that is an unnecessary waste,two..drinking and driving is a bad thing..three, i have never,ever ever had any good thing come out of drinking..so why do it? It is permissable, but it benefits me or you nothing..so why go on defending things that are not going to benefit? If you wish to drink, go ahead..no one forbids you. At the same time, it is wrong to look down on those who have set boundaries on their lives and go paint them with a brush of 'pharisse' .
Because you do not know why they do these things..why they have placed limits on what they do and cannot do..and what their motives are. You can only assume..but since you and i will most likely never meet or talk apart from this forum, it is a very difficult thing to judge. I can only say to you that my motives are not to 'look better than you' or anyone..i am not better than you, and vise versa..I simply have gone through much pain for not nipping things in the bud, and many pastors and 'teachers' and christians never taught me a biblical standard for holy and right living..now 14 years later in my walk, i am discovering this pilgrimage of holiness living. So, that said..this is why i do what i do in a nutshell.

 

[rauleetoe]

OSAS does not teach this, a licentious Gospel which uses OSAS inappropriately teaches this.

Thus before you go slamming people on their belief system, you should try to understand what it is they believe.




What do you have to say when the same passages says that one who practices unrighteousness has never seen God not have never known him?

Do we listen to john, and understand these people were never saved. Or listen to you, and say once apon a time someone who had a personal relationship with God and KNEW him, suddenly fell into sin and lost his relationship (salvation) and now do not know him.. See the major issue here?

Well sir, i am terribly sorry that you took it as a 'slam' i did not slam you, but i do see how you being burned as you said by those who seemed to be legalistic and religious caused you to run the other direction to the grace only camp. It does not say in that scripture that they never were saved, and this certain 'tenet' that many of OSAS hold onto is merely a calvinistic reform or in other words the P for perseverance of the saints..which can be clearly refuted as i have shown in hebrews 3, 1 timothy 4, and in romans 11, which speaks that even those who were grafted in can be possibly cut off. Read it for yourself buddy, i did not make that one up..it should be in your bible..unless of course you ripped that page off or whited it out.

 

[Abiding]

I get not riled up when others who are Christ followers, drink..go to bars..whatnot..
I get 'riled up' as you say Ms. Marianna, when those people look down upon me when they invite me to go to a hookah bar..to discuss scripture..theology, etc..and i am clearly not ok and uncomfortable with that..and they say, well if you do not wish to go meet me at this hookah bar(i do not smoke anymore,nor want to start again or be around the 2nd hand smoke) that i am wasting their time and do not wish to fellowship. Is that fair? Tell me if you think that is..
That's not christianity at peace, that is someone attempting to use their so called liberty to impose it on someone else..that is not loving..and certainly is not chrsitlike..have you ever read romans 14? I suggest you do so as a refresher, because it speaks of those who look down on some who have strict diets(vegans/vegetarians,etc. I used to be one and was judged for not eating meat at the time by some of the 'free christians') It can also be applied to those who feel free to have a beer. Trust me, i of all people would love a cold one after a long hard day, but for one, it costs money that is an unnecessary waste,two..drinking and driving is a bad thing..three, i have never,ever ever had any good thing come out of drinking..so why do it? It is permissable, but it benefits me or you nothing..so why go on defending things that are not going to benefit? If you wish to drink, go ahead..no one forbids you. At the same time, it is wrong to look down on those who have set boundaries on their lives and go paint them with a brush of 'pharisse' .
Because you do not know why they do these things..why they have placed limits on what they do and cannot do..and what their motives are. You can only assume..but since you and i will most likely never meet or talk apart from this forum, it is a very difficult thing to judge. I can only say to you that my motives are not to 'look better than you' or anyone..i am not better than you, and vise versa..I simply have gone through much pain for not nipping things in the bud, and many pastors and 'teachers' and christians never taught me a biblical standard for holy and right living..now 14 years later in my walk, i am discovering this pilgrimage of holiness living. So, that said..this is why i do what i do in a nutshell.

I thank God He exposed this to you and taught you different.
He is Faithful!

 

[Abiding]

Well sir, i am terribly sorry that you took it as a 'slam' i did not slam you, but i do see how you being burned as you said by those who seemed to be legalistic and religious caused you to run the other direction to the grace only camp. It does not say in that scripture that they never were saved, and this certain 'tenet' that many of OSAS hold onto is merely a calvinistic reform or in other words the P for perseverance of the saints..which can be clearly refuted as i have shown in hebrews 3, 1 timothy 4, and in romans 11, which speaks that even those who were grafted in can be possibly cut off. Read it for yourself buddy, i did not make that one up..it should be in your bible..unless of course you ripped that page off or whited it out.

I tell ya if its wrong to enjoy the debate oneliners in these discussions
than i am sure a bad boy.

 

[GreenNnice]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding.

You're doing it wrong Green. You're trusting in your own heart and leaning unto your own understanding.

When the Lord Jesus said 'I will never leave you nor forsake you' I view that as a promise. I have faith in Him and what He says.



Have it your way, grampsK, lol, not that what I ever say is going to stop you to fully appreciate God's grace.

That's OK, in your book, you are going to Heaven, and, you may very well be. Only God knows your heart and if you truly are leaning on His understanding. I pray, hope that you are. But, misunderstanding Scripture is grave, we are not to TAKE AWAY or ADD TO all the words of His Truth.

Are you? it is, ultimately, not between you and I, the answer to that question will be answered by the grace and mercy bestowed by Him in you (I sure hope, pray, you've received His 'gift' of Acts 1:8) in Heaven and on earth.

The Lord leads

 

[marianna]

By the way, no one here said they are better..and i am not implying everyone is in an 'orgy of sin' But we must be carefull what these 'doctrines' teach and the implications of what they can possibly lead to.
Case in point..Westboro baptists say God hates gays, and why would they not? after all they are just trying to be good Calvinists!

Why didn't you just say all ('good') Calvinists are like/ believe and so behave the same was the psychiatrically disturbed individuals from Westboro?
This is what you're getting at, and you're linking it to eternal security.

So glib.

Think about the implications of OSAS..I will not and many others do not believe this..you are secure IF YOU BELIEVE, and WALK in it.
Hebrews 3:12-14.
Have you held onto your confidence? and will you do so until the end? Then you and only then..are you 'secure'

My confidence in what?

 

[RickShafer]

Most of the time you can tell which argument
is correct by which one has the least personal
insults. You don't have to know jack squat about
a topic but if you will just pay attention to
which side is hurling personal attacks then 99.9%
of the time that is the wrong one.

 

[marianna]

I get not riled up when others who are Christ followers, drink..go to bars..whatnot..
I get 'riled up' as you say Ms. Marianna, when those people look down upon me when they invite me to go to a hookah bar..to discuss scripture..theology, etc..and i am clearly not ok and uncomfortable with that..and they say, well if you do not wish to go meet me at this hookah bar(i do not smoke anymore,nor want to start again or be around the 2nd hand smoke) that i am wasting their time and do not wish to fellowship. Is that fair? Tell me if you think that is..

Why are you asking me if that's okay, after not fleshing out your story the first time, and skipping over what I said the first time:

"Were they fighting and swearing and picking up women?
If not, then what's your problem?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." - Matthew 11:19"

You said nothing about a hookah bar whatever that is - it involves smoking.
You used to smoke and now don't. So why do you care what they say? Did not you say the same things while you smoked?

That's not christianity at peace, that is someone attempting to use their so called liberty to impose it on someone else..that is not loving..and certainly is not chrsitlike..have you ever read romans 14? I suggest you do so as a refresher,

Stop condescending.
If you'd made this all known, it would have ended the discussion and everyone would have likely agreed with you.

Enjoying a beer or glass of wine with Christian friends is Christian liberty - you left out the SIN PART.

"when those people look down upon me when they invite me to go to a hookah bar..to discuss scripture..theology, etc..and i am clearly not ok and uncomfortable with that..and they say, well if you do not wish to go meet me at this hookah bar(i do not smoke anymore,nor want to start again or be around the 2nd hand smoke) that i am wasting their time and do not wish to fellowship. Is that fair?"

Oh so what? You know it's ridiculous, so why even give it another thought? what's "fair" got to do with it?

But that wasn't what you said in your first post.

(btw: what's a hookah bar?)

I assert and still do, so what? if some christians enjoy having a beer at a pub? Presumably they are secure in the faith and do not take "a beer or two" to drunkenness.

If people weak in the faith are there, why are they there at all?

As for whatever else your sinning friends did, why didn't you just get the whole point that they were indulging in sin out to start with? - they were sinning.

And why didn't you acknowledge what i said in the second post?

"How do you know what they talk about or how they behave? Are you there at the bar also, or are you giving second or third hand reports (gossip)?
You have no idea if they sinned or not. You just don't like their liberty in Christ, to not have to listen to people say 'taste not touch not handle not'."

No, later it comes out you were there, they AND you were sinning at the bar.

Something I would never have argued with you about - (but maybe that wasn't your intention in posting).

because it speaks of those who look down on some who have strict diets(vegans/vegetarians,etc. I used to be one and was judged for not eating meat at the time by some of the 'free christians') It can also be applied to those who feel free to have a beer. Trust me, i of all people would love a cold one after a long hard day, but for one, it costs money that is an unnecessary waste,two..drinking and driving is a bad thing..three, i have never,ever ever had any good thing come out of drinking..so why do it?

Did you judge/look down (verbally or not) those not on vegan diets?
You very probably did. You likely said/thought all sorts of things about their lack of health, obedience, and so on. Whatever convinced you to be vegan in the first place had a down side, which you probably ascribed to meat-eaters. You might deny this, but If you're honest I bet that's how it went.

....And after you decided to STOP going to the hookah bar and sinning, and after you were once a vegan but now are not; why do judge those who have not yet been convicted as you were to STOP doing it? You were once like them!

Maybe some of them never will - but what concern is that of yours, unless you intend to establish a ministry to HELP THEM. You are a Christian who was convicted and stopped SINNING in that form. Will God not do the same for others? Will most if not all eventually have a change of mind about it?

One more question: if those sinners were calvinist/reformed (and "those doctrines" were the likely CAUSE of them sinning their hearts out), what was your excuse? Or is your assertion THEY caused YOU to stumble?

It is permissable, but it benefits me or you nothing..so why go on defending things that are not going to benefit? If you wish to drink, go ahead..no one forbids you. At the same time, it is wrong to look down on those who have set boundaries on their lives and go paint them with a brush of 'pharisse' .

"a lazy spiritual sluggard"

If you have a problem with drinking a beer or two, then by all means don't do it.
Don't go anywhere near anyone who does it. My husband and I don't. We benefit from enjoying a cold glass of good beer on occasion when we go out to eat. We're not smoking and swearing and getting drunk THEN DISCUSSING THEOLOGY in a public place.

BUT you only told half your story, so i'm not owning your remarks. You ought to have made your entire point, and included the SINNING part.

Most mature Christians have learned to "put boundaries on their lives".

Why did you skip over that part I wrote - about we are being sanctified just as you are - all true believers are. Even if at one time in their folly and youth they were in a hookah bar (whatever that is).

Because you do not know why they do these things..why they have placed limits on what they do and cannot do..and what their motives are..

Nonsense. They do these things for the same reason we all who are being sanctified do them - self control is a fruit of the spirit.
And you can't judge motives either. So why are YOU doing it?

You can only assume..but since you and i will most likely never meet or talk apart from this forum, it is a very difficult thing to judge. I can only say to you that my motives are not to 'look better than you' or anyone..i am not better than you, and vise versa..I simply have gone through much pain for not nipping things in the bud,my walk, i am discovering this pilgrimage of holiness living. So, that said..this is why i do what i do in a nutshell.

Yes, we all have.
Isn't that what I said?
Those that are His will go through the same pain until they learn, JUST LIKE YOU.
And that's why WE do what we do.

Buty you and a few others have X-ray heart/life vision (capable of seeing fruit of real lives over the internet) and have determined nearly everyone else here is wallowing in sin, not seeking holiness, not growing, not maturing, not shunning sin.

But I don't believe in shunning sinners - either lost or saved. They need HELP.

and many pastors and 'teachers' and christians never taught me a biblical standard for holy and right living..now 14 years later in my walk, i am discovering this pilgrimage of holiness living. So, that said..this is why i do what i do in a nutshell.

Always someone else's fault.
Maybe you weren't willing or listening at the time. why did it take 14 years?
Because you weren't DONE with your old man and sin. Right?

That's my guess.

 

[cfultz3]

Most of the time you can tell which argument
is correct by which one has the least personal
insults. You don't have to know jack squat about
a topic but if you will just pay attention to
which side is hurling personal attacks then 99.9%
of the time that is the wrong one.

This should be attached to every post. Good insight Rick.

 

[marianna]

Why were you so careless, as to ascribe to me something i did not nor would ever say: that we HAVE TO sin?

Why did you add a two letter word to discredit everything I posted, including scripture?

I think you saw what you wanted to see. Let's see what I said, compare to what John said, and see if you correct your error (?):

You're not without sin

You have sin.

you'll always have sin - as you admitted you'll never be perfect.

So, rauleetoe, I did I say we HAVE TO sin?

Or did I say we HAVE sin?
That we are not without sin?

Did John say the same thing I said? Is John a heretic or did you jump the gun?

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1 John 1:8

Neither John nor I said we HAVE TO SIN.

JOHN said we have sin. That if we claim to be without sin, we're lying.

rauleetoe, will you please correct the mistake you made when you claimed I said WE HAVE TO SIN?

Thank you
God Bless
marianna

 

[rauleetoe]

Why didn't you just say all ('good') Calvinists are like/ believe and so behave the same was the psychiatrically disturbed individuals from Westboro?
This is what you're getting at, and you're linking it to eternal security.

So glib.



My confidence in what?

did you read hebrews 3:14?

 

[marianna]

did you read hebrews 3:14?

For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. - Hebrew 3:14

And?

I trust God more than I ever did as a young Christian.
Your point?

 

[cfultz3]

Does every one understand the difference between our sabbatical rest we reeive when we are in God's presence and Christ's rest which we have now in the flesh? If you read the very first post of this thread and have questions, I will do my best to explain to you.

In summary, we are not in our sabbatical rest now, seeing that not only are we still in the flesh, but we are also still under Christ's toil.

Christ, on the other hand, offers us rest from the heavy laden of the curse placed upon us from our explusion from Eden and gives us His toils, not as by a curse, but as by a blessing. He also gives us spiitual rest from our battles.

So, have we entered our rest yet? No, we have not rested from our works as Jesus had when He went before God's presence and was told to rest from His works. We must still work Christ's toils (proclaiming the Gospel, being co-participants with the Spirit (acts of love), those things He told us to do).

And in our walk with Him, when in times of needing rest, we then can take our break in Him so that we can continue our journey we are led on.

 

[rauleetoe]

For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. - Hebrew 3:14

And?

I trust God more than I ever did as a young Christian.
Your point?

My point is it says..if we hold onto our confidence(dunno which translation you used) But it clearly says we are partakers, if we continue until the end..also..romans 11 talks of this as well, especially verse 21..where it says..if God did not spare the natural branches(being us gentiles grafted in, and not originally a part as the hebrews were originally) Then we must be carefull to not be cut off.

As far as your rant about me judging others etc in the previous post, I do not care to reply to every single snippet that you said. I can say this though as a blanket response to you though-
-I do not nor did I ever say i am better than you, or anyone else
-I believe all are capable of living for God, this is available to all believers, call it holiness, right living, God gracing you..however you wish to label it and package it, it all is pretty much the same..it is merely abiding in him, and you will bear much fruit like it says in John 15. With him we can do it all, without him we can do nothing
-As far as judging others going to bars, i do not. I simply do not do this anymore myself, at least not for now. Will there come a time in my life that i can go hang out with someone at a bar(not drinking a beer myself) perhaps..But that does not equate to me saying i look down on anyone who does. Don't get it twisted ma'am.
-I in response to the hookah bar ordeal, was talking to a presbyterian calvinist worship leader of a church, who wanted to talk about the bible and why he felt his theology was biblically 'sound' and mines was not. Which would have been fine if for one he was in the same city i was, he was not..he was far away for one, and second, was pretty much insisting I go meet him and his friend at this hookah bar(a hookah bar is similar i guess to a coffeeshop,etc except they serve shisha, a mideastern type of tobbacco smoked in something similar to a bong but not a bong, its a hookah and its only for this sweet and syrupy tobacco) And i just was not ok with that, and I had to decline his offer. Even when he pretty much was saying, meet me here now, or 'don't waste my time'. Seriously? Is that a response that is Christlike? If that makes me judgemental, then i guess to some i will be judgemental. Yet i do not see how that was going to make me want to talk to this person. Needless to say, that was the first and last time i spoke to him about hanging out,possibly befriending him. Which was a bummer, because i was trying to see if it was possibly if I could be friends with someone from the polar opposite theological persuation. I guess its harder than i thought it would be to do.

 

[cfultz3]

Does every one understand the difference between our sabbatical rest we reeive when we are in God's presence and Christ's rest which we have now in the flesh? If you read the very first post of this thread and have questions, I will do my best to explain to you.

In summary, we are not in our sabbatical rest now, seeing that not only are we still in the flesh, but we are also still under Christ's toil.

Christ, on the other hand, offers us rest from the heavy laden of the curse placed upon us from our explusion from Eden and gives us His toils, not as by a curse, but as by a blessing. He also gives us spiitual rest from our battles.

So, have we entered our rest yet? No, we have not rested from our works as Jesus had when He went before God's presence and was told to rest from His works. We must still work Christ's toils (proclaiming the Gospel, being co-participants with the Spirit (acts of love), those things He told us to do).

And in our walk with Him, when in times of needing rest, we then can take our break in Him so that we can continue our journey we are led on.

So, faith without works (Christ's toils) is dead. He says, 'He who loves me will do my commandments...' So, we must have works with faith. Which works? Yes, the works from Christ.

 

[feedm3]

Does every one understand the difference between our sabbatical rest we reeive when we are in God's presence and Christ's rest which we have now in the flesh? If you read the very first post of this thread and have questions, I will do my best to explain to you.

In summary, we are not in our sabbatical rest now, seeing that not only are we still in the flesh, but we are also still under Christ's toil.

Christ, on the other hand, offers us rest from the heavy laden of the curse placed upon us from our explusion from Eden and gives us His toils, not as by a curse, but as by a blessing. He also gives us spiitual rest from our battles.

So, have we entered our rest yet? No, we have not rested from our works as Jesus had when He went before God's presence and was told to rest from His works. We must still work Christ's toils (proclaiming the Gospel, being co-participants with the Spirit (acts of love), those things He told us to do).

And in our walk with Him, when in times of needing rest, we then can take our break in Him so that we can continue our journey we are led on.

This is good stuff. I have been trying to say this, but cant word it right. Thanks. Our rest is what we should be working toward:
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[cfultz3]

This is good stuff. I have been trying to say this, but cant word it right. Thanks. Our rest is what we should be working toward:
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

And thank you for the Scriptural Truth of Hebrews 4:11.

Let us continue to toil until we are told, 'Well done. Come and let us rest together forevermore'.

 

[teuful_hunden]

Most of the time you can tell which argument
is correct by which one has the least personal
insults. You don't have to know jack squat about
a topic but if you will just pay attention to
which side is hurling personal attacks then 99.9%
of the time that is the wrong one.

thats just the side that is losing that doesnt prove that the other side is right it just shows they have a better stance on their issue

 

[RickShafer]

Yea, like I said, the side that can back up their argument without resorting to personal
affronts tends to be the one who is closer to the truth. - It doesn't mean they are totally correct, it just means they
are following the rules of debate.
It's like a chess match, the one who can logically refute the other argument using scripture is usually the one who is right.
(It doesn't mean they're 100% correct, but at least they can opine an argument without resorting to personal attacks.)
And in my experience those that can rightly divide the scripture and use it
in their argument correctly NEVER resort to name calling.

 

[GreenNnice]

Why are you asking me if that's okay, after not fleshing out your story the first time, and skipping over what I said the first time:

"Were they fighting and swearing and picking up women?
If not, then what's your problem?

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." - Matthew 11:19"

You said nothing about a hookah bar whatever that is - it involves smoking.
You used to smoke and now don't. So why do you care what they say? Did not you say the same things while you smoked?



Stop condescending.
If you'd made this all known, it would have ended the discussion and everyone would have likely agreed with you.

Enjoying a beer or glass of wine with Christian friends is Christian liberty - you left out the SIN PART.

"when those people look down upon me when they invite me to go to a hookah bar..to discuss scripture..theology, etc..and i am clearly not ok and uncomfortable with that..and they say, well if you do not wish to go meet me at this hookah bar(i do not smoke anymore,nor want to start again or be around the 2nd hand smoke) that i am wasting their time and do not wish to fellowship. Is that fair?"

Oh so what? You know it's ridiculous, so why even give it another thought? what's "fair" got to do with it?

But that wasn't what you said in your first post.

(btw: what's a hookah bar?)

I assert and still do, so what? if some christians enjoy having a beer at a pub? Presumably they are secure in the faith and do not take "a beer or two" to drunkenness.

If people weak in the faith are there, why are they there at all?

As for whatever else your sinning friends did, why didn't you just get the whole point that they were indulging in sin out to start with? - they were sinning.

And why didn't you acknowledge what i said in the second post?



No, later it comes out you were there, they AND you were sinning at the bar.

Something I would never have argued with you about - (but maybe that wasn't your intention in posting).



Did you judge/look down (verbally or not) those not on vegan diets?
You very probably did. You likely said/thought all sorts of things about their lack of health, obedience, and so on. Whatever convinced you to be vegan in the first place had a down side, which you probably ascribed to meat-eaters. You might deny this, but If you're honest I bet that's how it went.

....And after you decided to STOP going to the hookah bar and sinning, and after you were once a vegan but now are not; why do judge those who have not yet been convicted as you were to STOP doing it? You were once like them!

Maybe some of them never will - but what concern is that of yours, unless you intend to establish a ministry to HELP THEM. You are a Christian who was convicted and stopped SINNING in that form. Will God not do the same for others? Will most if not all eventually have a change of mind about it?

One more question: if those sinners were calvinist/reformed (and "those doctrines" were the likely CAUSE of them sinning their hearts out), what was your excuse? Or is your assertion THEY caused YOU to stumble?



"a lazy spiritual sluggard"

If you have a problem with drinking a beer or two, then by all means don't do it.
Don't go anywhere near anyone who does it. My husband and I don't. We benefit from enjoying a cold glass of good beer on occasion when we go out to eat. We're not smoking and swearing and getting drunk THEN DISCUSSING THEOLOGY in a public place.

BUT you only told half your story, so i'm not owning your remarks. You ought to have made your entire point, and included the SINNING part.

Most mature Christians have learned to "put boundaries on their lives".

Why did you skip over that part I wrote - about we are being sanctified just as you are - all true believers are. Even if at one time in their folly and youth they were in a hookah bar (whatever that is).



Nonsense. They do these things for the same reason we all who are being sanctified do them - self control is a fruit of the spirit.
And you can't judge motives either. So why are YOU doing it?



Yes, we all have.
Isn't that what I said?
Those that are His will go through the same pain until they learn, JUST LIKE YOU.
And that's why WE do what we do.

Buty you and a few others have X-ray heart/life vision (capable of seeing fruit of real lives over the internet) and have determined nearly everyone else here is wallowing in sin, not seeking holiness, not growing, not maturing, not shunning sin.

But I don't believe in shunning sinners - either lost or saved. They need HELP.



Always someone else's fault.
Maybe you weren't willing or listening at the time. why did it take 14 years?
Because you weren't DONE with your old man and sin. Right?

That's my guess.

Children, children, don't you know , bickering and strife just show your carnality.

Cmon , learn to BE in the Spirit, His yours being ONE, and, be at rest.
learn this and the going of your life will be unsecreted , you can QUIT reading the books. In Him, IS where our rest is ? Yes. The Lord leads, it'a great journey to be living and bresthing as His Spirit leads, for this journey with Him, through His 'Sword' is 'living and active.' . Be living His dream life for you, all your life, for in it and after it both is 'rest,' great rest.

One more thing about immature speaking and strife: unless one be's as a child, they will NOT enter the kingdom of Heaven .