A Genesis debate re.

[RickShafer]

Meant to say "The first rain was the flood..."

 

[feedm3]

6 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.


Some say the Sons of God in verse 2 is referring to fallen angels. Some say it's line of Seth. What do you say?... I'll comment my position through-out the comments

Thats a tough one, I dont know if that will ever be answered with all certainty.

Could be angels, but I dont understand how angels can be involved with fleshly acts like sex. Jesus said the angels do not marry, but that neither proves nor disproves they can have sex.

Since God created them, and they dont have children like we do, (I dont think so at least) why would they need these kinds of organs?

Do they even have organs? I think they are spiritual beings, and it just does not fit with what I believe.

Could be the godly line of Seth, seeing "sons of God" do describe those who belong to God in many other verses.

Thats the one I lean toward.

 

[gracethroughfaith]

This story about fallen angles mating with earthly woman, came from a commentary written by a man based on his own thoughts about what the Bible said. It has never been based on scripture. This story has spread like wild fire through the churches because it is easier for man to just take the preachers word over studying to prove what is true. Satan knows how lazy man is and that man will not study for himself to know what is true. He keeps doing the same thing he did since the day he deceived Eve. Eve just took his word for it rather than go to God and see what he had to say about it. It is easier to just except a lie rather than admit God has all the answers.

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.




2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The passage about the sons of God take wives of men has been taken out of context. You must read what the passage says not what you think it says.
Genesis 6:1-4 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Look at verse 4. We are told there were already giants in the earth at the time the sons of God took of the daughters of men, and there were still giants in the earth after that. Then it goes on to tell us the these children became mighty men, well know, (famous if you will). It does not say they became giants. The giants were already there.

Lets take a look a a few passages and see who God tells us the sons of God are.


Hosea 1:10 (KJV)
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Philippians 2:14-15 (KJV)
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

John 1:11-12 (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:






Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Also lets look at the beginning of the lineage of from Adam to Jesus.
We see Adam was the son of God, so if Adam was the son of God, do you not think much of his seed whould have also been called the sons of God?


Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Now lets take a look at what God says about the angles being called sons of God.


Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

God never once called the angles sons of God. But he did call faithful man sons of God!

Ok so who are the daughters of men?
we see in many passages that sons of men is refering to the ungodly (unbelieving), this would also include the daughters.

Lets look at a few passages to get a better understanding of this.

Ephesians 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (KJV)
11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 (KJV)
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Psalm 4:2-3 (KJV)
2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.






This is a very breaf overview to this study. If I were to cover every bit of this study and all the scripture that goes with it, the exausted study of this subject takes about 6 hours to cover.

 

[RickShafer]

Read all my posts on this thread.
I never said they had sex.
You don't have to have sex to genetically alter a species.
Biogenetics labs do it all the time.
"They found the daughters on men to be fair" is just a biblical way of
saying they were messing with the DNA: - (As only women can have give birth)

 

[feedm3]

Who is accusing you of saying they had sex? From what I can see, people including me have said that is one of the reasons they dont believe that, does not mean you said or did not say it.

But, would God allow angles to mess with his creation? I know we could say "no", that is why he punished them. But what I mean is, do they have the ability to do so?

I am not saying your view is false, I am just saying I dont know. Trying to look at all points here. i think gracethroughfaith has made a very valid strong argument for why it means what he believes.

They way he has laid out his points, he is allowing the Bible to interpret itself, and I think that way is the best way to go.

 

[RickShafer]

Of course super intelligent beings would have the ability for genetic manipulation.
The term 'Sons of God' is used for angels three times in the book of Job - (1:6, 2:1, and 38:7), as well as other places
in the O.T.
As far as the order of happening in Gen.6, the phrase "and after that" may be addressing the previous state of the unpolluted
gene pool. Hebrew does that alot. It restates the same thing in a different way. - The psalms are full of this descriptive device.

 

[feedm3]

Of course super intelligent beings would have the ability for genetic manipulation.
The term 'Sons of God' is used for angels three times in the book of Job - (1:6, 2:1, and 38:7), as well as other places
in the O.T.
As far as the order of happening in Gen.6, the phrase "and after that" may be addressing the previous state of the unpolluted
gene pool. Hebrew does that alot. It restates the same thing in a different way. - The psalms are full of this descriptive device.

Thats very interesting. Something to ponder on.

 

[RickShafer]

I don't claim a certain truth in this subject.
All I'm doing is through conjecture.
But one of the reason I believe what I do is because the verses in
II Peter 2:4,5 - "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into hell,
and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;
And spared not the old world,but saved Noah the eighth person, bringing in the flood
upon the world of the ungodly;".......
Now we know the fallen angels are out and about among us today.
Satan himself is still on the lose.....
So which angels are Peter talking about? And why is he addressing them when he is
addressing the flood, and the reasons for it?
Just my opinion, nothing more.

 

[feedm3]

I don't claim a certain truth in this subject.
All I'm doing is through conjecture.
But one of the reason I believe what I do is because the verses in
II Peter 2:4,5 - "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into hell,
and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;
And spared not the old world,but saved Noah the eighth person, bringing in the flood
upon the world of the ungodly;".......
Now we know the fallen angels are out and about among us today.
Satan himself is still on the lose.....
So which angels are Peter talking about? And why is he addressing them when he is
addressing the flood, and the reasons for it?
Just my opinion, nothing more.

I dont really know, I think that is another interesting subject. I dont know if those fallen angels are among us, at least the ones mentioned in Peter because it says he cast them down into darkness, to be reserved for judgement.

I dont think the flood is connected with the angels in those passages. If you notice what he is saying, "if God spared not the angels" his firs point

or those who perished in the flood - 2

Or Sodom and Gomorrah - 3

His point is, the Lord knows how to spare the righteousness, just as he spared Noah, and Lot when everything else was being destroyed.

But if he did not spare those who died in the flood, nor those angels who sinned, nor those who inhabited the cites of Sodom, then he will not spare us, if we do not live by their example and flee from evil.

 

[RickShafer]

Yes absolutely.
We are to walk in newness of life.
We are not to use grace as an excuse to sin.
God is not mocked.

 

[kenisyes]

1. Excuse me, but fallen angels creating rain is ridiculous.
2. The first rain was the food, that's when the waters of the deep broke open. That's also when the water layer suspended in the upper atmosphere broke.
3. When Peter was addressing the flood there is no other logical explanation for the phrase"standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."- (II Peter 3:5pp,6)
4. Did it rain during the flood or not? So all the water didn't come from beneath.
5. There is no way to invert static charge, (which is what lightning is).
6. Tesla did alot of stuff. But inverting static charges wasn't one of them. He used a generator to do experiments with sending electricity through the air(no hard wire conductor), and while doing this he employed low pressure fronts as a way to try to harness the potential difference(voltage) that accompanies the static charges in low pressure cloud systems. How successful he was we will probably never know.

1. But fallen angels teaching people how to is not.

2. Peter says that it was the first time the earth was overflowed with water, not that it was the first time it rained. Rain does not normally overflood the earth. Usually, most of the rain goes intot he ground and helps the crops grow.

3. The standard explanation (showing there is another way to interpret it which many people consider logical) of "standing out of the water and in the water" is that the water stays in the oceans, and the earth rises above it in places, we call continents, but there is still land under the oceans in many places.

4. Of course it rained during the flood. There is one kind of flood in Hebrew (mobal) and two kinds of rain, matar and geshem. Three different kinds of things associated with water. If you say that one of these is the fountains of the deep, and the other is the canopy breaking, what then is the third kind?

5. You invert a charge by hooking your condenser up the opposite way. You move wire a to point b and wire b to point a. That makes your negative pole positive and vice-versa. If you leave it long enough, the charge inverts, and the new static charge held by the condenser goes the opposite way. It's true, you don't actually invert the same charge. The old one is replaced gradually by the new. Lightning is not static charge, it is the release of static charge, which is why it can be collected in a Leyden jar (as Ben Franklin did to a small portion of it), and forms again as a static charge in the jar.

6. According to Tesla's autobiography, the experiments that resulted in his highly successful invention of putting free electricity in the air, were begun originally as an attempt to create rain from electricity, as you mentioned. He never succeeded in that. But he never had much voltage to work with either in those days. In order to invert a static charge, you must first collect it into a condenser. The atmospheric static charge was too large for him to manage, so he employed it, but was unable to collect it.

 

[kenisyes]

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Look at verse 4. We are told there were already giants in the earth at the time the sons of God took of the daughters of men, and there were still giants in the earth after that. Then it goes on to tell us the these children became mighty men, well know, (famous if you will). It does not say they became giants. The giants were already there.


Hosea 1:10 (KJV)
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Verse 4 can be interpeted either way. Hebrew is not definitive in tenses, so the order of topics we assume in English narrative is not guaranteed. "When the sons of God..." could define "those days". That they existed after is amply proven by the list of Scriptures I gave yesterday from Numbers, Deteronomy and Joshua. It does not have to mean the giants existed before these events. This interpretation is the more common, and is backed by pagan cultures near Israel.

The NT Scriptures do not count, because the Greek word for God (theos) is not a clear equivalent of the Hebrew "elohim"; it also means "Yahweh", and also "eloh" the word for a pagan god, or for a judge. Hosea does not apply, since it is not God calling the Hebrews anything. It is a statement of what other people will say about them, and the other people could be wrong. That is, the other people could be assuming the Hebrews are sons of God in disguise. The same with the mention in Daniel, "one looks like a son of God".

It is true that Adam is a son of God, but is it of Elohim or of Yahweh? We have already documented that the "sons of God" (beni haElohim - same Hebrew) present themselves before God regularly in Job. In fact, that is what is causing the difficulty. Humans can't get to heaven on a regular schedule, and angels can't have sex to make babies.

 

[kenisyes]

Of course super intelligent beings would have the ability for genetic manipulation.
The term 'Sons of God' is used for angels three times in the book of Job - (1:6, 2:1, and 38:7), as well as other places
in the O.T.
As far as the order of happening in Gen.6, the phrase "and after that" may be addressing the previous state of the unpolluted
gene pool. Hebrew does that alot. It restates the same thing in a different way. - The psalms are full of this descriptive device.

Sorry I didn't see your before I posted mine.

 

[kenisyes]

I don't claim a certain truth in this subject.
All I'm doing is through conjecture.
But one of the reason I believe what I do is because the verses in
II Peter 2:4,5 - "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into hell,
and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;
And spared not the old world,but saved Noah the eighth person, bringing in the flood
upon the world of the ungodly;".......
Now we know the fallen angels are out and about among us today.
Satan himself is still on the lose.....
So which angels are Peter talking about? And why is he addressing them when he is
addressing the flood, and the reasons for it?
Just my opinion, nothing more.

Jewish legend says 90% are chained in the earth as of the time of Noah's post-flood prayer for that, the other 10% will be chained during the thousand year reign. Anyone who denies himself access to God is in the state of hell now. The chains are the fact they cannot get out. These chains appear dark to them, because they were once creatures of heaven, which is 100% light. The legend is not inspired, which is why God did not let Peter quote it, but the fact of their chaining undoubtedly is. That's why the specific wording.

 

[RickShafer]

So what are you saying?

 

[kenisyes]

So what are you saying?

I'm telling you where I think Peter got the specific words he is using, and why he thought of this verse together with the flood. That is what you asked. I know the fallen angels are chained outside of heaven, they are in the state of hell, and it is dark to them. I do not know if it is because of Noah's prayer or not, nor do I know if all of them are chained in the earth, or 90% or none of them.

 

[feedm3]

I'm telling you where I think Peter got the specific words he is using, and why he thought of this verse together with the flood. That is what you asked. I know the fallen angels are chained outside of heaven, they are in the state of hell, and it is dark to them. I do not know if it is because of Noah's prayer or not, nor do I know if all of them are chained in the earth, or 90% or none of them.

Seems to me he using the flood for the same reasons he used, Lot and Sodom, Noah and the flood, and the angnles that sinned.

Showed God did not spare the wicked, yet saved the righteous.

Lot in wicked Sodom was Spared.

Noah in the wicked earth was Spared.

if God destroyed the wicked earth, the wicked city, and even the angels that sinned, then no wickedness will escape the next judgement.

 

[kenisyes]

That does not explain the inclusion of the chains for the angels.

Also it does not account for the fact that no one was spared in the first case, but someone was spared in each of the next two. That similarity connects Noah and Lot. But the words in vs. 6, "and turning to" suggest that the first two (angels and Noah) are connected somehow in Peter's mind, and the two together somehow remind him of the third (Lot). Verse 9 summarizes that he is thinking of God saving someone each time, indicating that he is thinking of Noah and Lot. That makes it all the harder to see what the angles are doing there.

 

[feedm3]

That does not explain the inclusion of the chains for the angels.

Also it does not account for the fact that no one was spared in the first case, but someone was spared in each of the next two. That similarity connects Noah and Lot. But the words in vs. 6, "and turning to" suggest that the first two (angels and Noah) are connected somehow in Peter's mind, and the two together somehow remind him of the third (Lot). Verse 9 summarizes that he is thinking of God saving someone each time, indicating that he is thinking of Noah and Lot. That makes it all the harder to see what the angles are doing there.

I just think its possible we are trying to read to much into/out of it.

The chains of darkness seem figurative, to show a binding to whatever place they are held.

Jude also mentions them in the same fashion as Peter.

The inclusion I would think would be to make the point God knows how to reserve the unjust until Judgment.

Lot, Noah, flood, Sodom All connect to the point God knows how to deliver the Godly - they were spared, the wicked were not.

The Angels make the point God knows how to reserve the wicked until Judgment. - the angels are held waiting to be punished.

So both points (those delivered, those reserved for punishment) connect to this passage in the context:

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly(Noah, Lot,) out of temptations, ....

and to reserve the unjust (angels reserved in chains of darkness along with those who died in the flood - I Pet 3:19) unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[Abiding]

left their first estate then it ties them to a example of fornication
is what turned my head years ago.