Fallacies of the Present Day Church

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Nov 26, 2011
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#1
Fallacy 1: Sin is an inbred disease people are born with.
This is the main misconception that necessitates and influences all other Bible teachings within the Church. (Don’t think it doesn’t, it DOES!) Before debating any other theological positions, you must address the subject of man. Many fail to see the importance of correctly dividing choice from nature, but it’s obvious, they are opposites. The idea of an “inbred” nature causing people to sin totally eliminates freewill and in the end provides an excuse for the sinner (my body made me do it!). By preachers embracing this concept, they automatically eliminate the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and promise people liberty in Christ while are still in bondage to their numerous sins. This then is WHY so many have been led to a prayer for salvation, but never repentance. On numerous occasions I have discussed this teaching with others from the system only to be misunderstood and in some instances ridiculed. This doctrine is engrained in the minds of the people for sure. Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression, I am usually met with a blank stare or outlandish explanation (in some cases I have been urged to speak with the person’s preacher for clarification). It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what I can show people from Scripture, once their mind is infected with this teaching it is nearly impossible to awaken them to errors of this message! Sadly, I have yet to meet anyone in my local area who correctly understands that this doctrine of natural sin was not taught in the Patristic era of the Church (research it and be Set Free!). It’s really unbelievable! “How can so many be blind to this fallacy,” you may wonder as I once did myself. Typically, as I have learned, since Systematic Theology runs the evangelical world today, Bible exegesis are normally traced back to Augustine of Hippo and no further. Thus, the teachers who came before Augustine (first 400 years of the Church) and his opponents (like Pelagius) are usually termed as heretics all too quickly and disregarded as Biblical illiterate. It’s easy to see then why people are quick to put individuals like me who see the errors of Augustine in a similar category. Truly, until the religious Church establishment wakes up to the fact that their precious doctrine of Original Sin is Pagan, they will fail to comprehend the origins of their own religion (Christianity!) in which they profess to be apart of! What blindness!


Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.
The At-one-moment teaching of the day is a far cry from the ransom model put forth by the Primitive Church. (Matt. 20:28 & 1 Tim. 2:6) The theme of the Early Churches Reconciliation Message was aimed at the Death of Christ Rescuing man “NOT FROM THE FATHER” but instead from the wicked one (Satan) who has the whole world under his sway! (Acts 20:28 & Gal. 1:4) Christ was primarily seen as a teacher of righteousness (NOT a REPRESENTATIVE or SUBSTITUTE!) in this period who taught people to deny themselves, take up the cross and FOLLOW Him daily! (Lk. 9:23) Due to this an abundance of stress was laid upon the Lord’s Parabolic Instruction. Free will was a given and judgment was according to works. (Everything you did mattered!) Now, when evaluating today’s main assertion that the Father punished His Son in man’s stead on the cross in order to “satisfy” His wrath, just know that this concept is UN-founded in the Patristic Documents. (Beware that modern day evangelicals have a tendency to weave their doctrinal positions on Reconciliation into Early Church Writings in such a way that can dupe you into thinking the Early Christians were in line with the present day presentation of Calvary!) Matthew 18, the Parable of the unforgiving servant refutes this theological concept by showing that forgiveness can be forfeited due to conduct! (This is WHY a lot of the churches today will say the teachings of Christ are not applicable to doctrine.) The reality is, if the servants debt (10,000 talents) was paid by a substitute (which the Parable does NOT say it is!), then in NO possible way could the Master have revoked His forgiveness after learning of the forgiven servant’s behavior towards his fellow servant. (This is one aspect as to HOW the heresy of Eternal Security has been formulated.) The Parable simply does NOT explain the servants penalty was paid (or “PAID IN FULL!”), but instead explains it was plainly forgiven! (Matt. 18:27) Thus, salvation is shown to be conditional which is WHY it was taught in such a manner in the Early Church. (What has changed?) Many times the same word “sin,” as found in 2 Cor. 5:21 (which is the prime verse used by Reformed thinkers to explain that Christ became a MASS of sin on the cross) can be located and translated properly as “sin offering” without error. Thus, the idea of Christ becoming sin on the cross (and thus incurring man’s penalty by being punished by the Father) is entirely based on doctrinal conjecture and representation theories. Even if we were to disregard all the extra non Canonical evidence we can still confirm that Christ sacrifice was WITHOUT spot, since in Him, says John the apostle, there is NO sin! (Heb. 9:13-14 & 1 Jn.3:5) Thus, Christ DID NOT become blackened with imputed sin on the cross (so you could be imputed with His Righteousness), which means, the transfer is fraudulent and the WRATH of God continues to abide on the children of disobedience! (Eph. 5:6) Also keep in mind that “impute” does NOT mean “transfer.”


Fallacy 3: God Transferred Jesus Righteousness and Obedience to you when you believed by faith.
No where in the Scriptures does it actually say that the righteousness of Christ is transferred to you by passive faith – only by conjecture can this be proven. On the contrary, the Bible does say “he who DOES what is right is righteous” (1 Jn. 3:7) and that “the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself” (Ezk. 3:20). Virtue, like vice is NON- transferable since they both originate with the will. Therefore, the idea of Jesus swapping moral track records with those who trust in the provision is mythical. No one ever taught this in early times, instead, they taught one was made righteous by obeying the teachings of Christ by freewill. Nothing was “positional” or “forensic” (that is ALL Reformed terminology, which traces back to Augustine – NOT the Early Christians!). If one were justified, then they were also sanctified. Yet today, because the majority embrace Augustinian exegesis on original sin, they separate justification and sanctification and hold to some sort of Covenantal Representational theory (Reformed doctrine). What this has birthed is the Carnal Christian idea among many other errors. People are told that through mere belief, God transfers the obedience and righteousness of Christ to their account, thereby making them positionally righteous in His sight and Eternally Secure by a moment of faith (the trick here is to understand that the sin NATURE remains in tact after regeneration, which means, the saved will continue to sin daily in thought, word and deed without any more condemnation!). One must now rest in this arrangement (which they will IF they are truly elect, but won’t if they are not, which would prove they were NEVER saved to begin with!) At the core of this teaching is a Representation Theory. The idea here is that Adam’s guilt and sinful nature are transmitted to his offspring through natural reproduction. (Concupiscence is the proof of this.) Thus, all men and women are BORN sinners, that is, with concupiscence – no exceptions (except for Jesus!). Since man comes into the world in this Totally Depraved condition, he is now wholly incapable of obeying God! So under this teaching Christ now appears as the Believers Representative (rather than example!). Every iota of His life is NOT carried out for His servants to learn from and FOLLOW, instead, His human existence was simply accomplished in order to achieve what no man could (being born a SINNER) before He came: Righteousness! (Keep in mind there are more than plenty examples of persons who were FOUND righteous before the advent of Christ which is WHY this teaching is a fallacy when broken down!) To sum it all up, by the believer “trusting” that Jesus obeyed for them and was righteous so they don’t have to be, they are no longer obligated to do anything since it has already been done in advance! Thus, to be a DOER of the word is now to show contempt towards the finished work of Christ and to ultimately fall from grace (which of course they will have to say you were never a partaker of to begin with, or they have to admit salvation is conditional!)


Fallacy 4: Not only your past sins are forgiven, but your FUTURE sins are also forgiven in Christ.
Again, pure conjecture. This tenet of Reformed theology has SOME serious passages of Scripture to overcome or better said – explain away! (Heb. 6:1-8 & 10:26-31) Without a doubt, only PAST sins are forgiven when in Christ since the Bible time and time again WARNS that the “beloved” can shipwreck their faith and be carried away with the error of the wicked! Likewise, the Scripture explains that if you DON’T add to your faith, you will forget you were cleansed from your old sins! (2 Pet. 1:9) Peter wasn’t talking to heathens! Therefore, it should become obvious that Christians (those who have been purged of their OLD sins by the blood of Jesus and witnessed to by His Holy Spirit!) can go back to wallowing in the mire AFTER they have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust! (Remember, you can believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away – according to Jesus – Lk. 8:13) Another way of dismissing the “eternal now” theological supposition of past, present and FUTURE all being the same in God’s eyes because of His eternal attributes, is to examine the word of God and discover on multiple occasions God is shown to deal with man in the present tense! (The eternal now theory has its origins with Augustine where he was able to frame his heretical PRE-destination doctrines of Election and reprobation!) The strongest text in the NT on this subject is Rom. 3:25 which says (in reference to Jesus Christ sacrifice of course): “whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.” How much MORE proof do you need? God has spoken! Indeed, previous sins can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus just like present cleansing is available on the condition you are walking IN the light (Obeying God); however, the notion of Pre-Remission for UN-committed sins is absent from the Bible! To imply this is to seriously err out in understanding the nature of God. (Rom. 11:22) Think about it in practicable application. Go tell some youth that his FUTURE sins are under the blood regardless of his conduct (which is exactly what they teach since they insist the sin nature remains AFTER conversion) and you will see that young individual sink into the deepest depths of depravity since they are convinced that as long as they “trust” in Jesus there is no more condemnation. (Even though in many of these cases people find themselves under deep conviction of sin through the accusation of conscience as explained in Rom. 2:14-15). This teaching IS at its core a license to sin! (Jude 3-4) By “believing” on Jesus you get permission to continue to sin since grace will ultimately abound in the end.


Fallacy 5: There is no sin you have to stop doing to get saved and no sin you have to stop doing to stay saved.
When sin is a PART of (or inbred in) nature, it can no longer be ceased from, forsaken or stopped. (This is WHY it is so hard to find anyone who will agree with the Early Christians in saying that the sin must STOP in repentance!) On both sides of the Church today, whether it be holiness` by sanctification or positional righteousness through imputation, they insist man comes into the world with a sin nature (inherited from Adam) and no ability to access their free will. (Original sin eliminates free agency PERIOD!) Because of this assertion, the conclusion is necessitated automatically that the sinner has need to get saved “in their sins” (sinners prayer normally or ritualistic sanction) BEFORE their personal sinfulness can even be remedied by indwelling Spirit of God. Thus, salvation is granted Not on the basis of repentance and faith (Acts 20:21), but instead by faith alone. (In most instances you can’t even repent until AFTER you receive the Holy Spirit!) In the minds of the people who have received this Reformed doctrine, deeds FOLLOW faith, which means, they are not a part of the initial response to the Gospel call. (Acts 5:32 & Rom. 6:17) Since they separate faith and obedience (UN-like the Scriptures), obedience is understood as optional (in the minds of the people) since it had nothing to do with their initial salvation experience! (This is WHY so many obey not the Gospel of God and still think they are Christians!) Likewise, this can be applied to the sin problem. When people are permitted to come into the Kingdom UN-repented and therefore IN their sins, then in no way can those same sins (which they got saved in initially) DISQUALIFY them at any point from life with Christ. It’s easy too see that the fallen Church today promises the people Liberty in Christ, while they remain IN sins that the Bible clearly explains will eliminate them from Heaven. (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5-7; Rev. 21:8) If you were to break this whole teaching down, it would lead you back to the theory of man being BORN a sinner (based on Federal and Natural Head Theories). The WHOLE fallacy stands on this tenet!!! By this doctrine lacing sin into the human body, then it has to remain therein until you physically die. (This is what they get from Rom. 6:7 and why 1 Jn. 1:8-10 is commonly abused to argue in favor of a continuance in sin.) Therefore, all victory over sin in this life is merely positional and forensic (nothing is ever practical). As follows, the old man in most scenarios NEVER is crucified! (Rom. 6:6 & Gal. 5:24) Thus, conduct is rendered pointless as salvation is based on nothing more than “trusting” in the provision. Sin then becomes the foregone conclusion under this formula and can NEVER stop! (It’s not a choice, but your nature!) Thus, the godliness of the Gospel is compromised and lukewarmness sets in. People won’t even TRY to obey God since they are convinced by the preachers that nothing they do or don’t do ultimately matters since salvation is not of works! Don’t be deceived. Regardless of HOW much fluff may be involved with your favorite teacher’s Gospel delivery, you can be assured in most cases they adhere to the concept of the stain of original sin being present in the believer’s life. If you don’t believe me, then just ask them!
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#2
Fallacy 6: Salvation in Christ is based on you trusting in His provision, not on you doing anything.
The provision is Calvary. The concept behind this is that everything you need to get into Heaven has been “provided” by the death of Christ. You trust in that and Bingo – your destined to glory – no more questions asked. (Judge not, right!) No longer is it mandatory that you follow Christ’s example, crucify your flesh, or walk after the Spirit. (The preachers will confirm it is GOOD for you to do this, but never will they admit that it is a mandate for entrance into the Kingdom.) Simply put, Christ (who under this scheme is the believer’s representative just like Adam is for the sinner) already accomplished this when He walked the earth! So, for you to have the mindset that you have to “follow” His ways and obey His teachings is really to prove that you do NOT trust in His “Finished Work”. (Reformed Theology forgets that Peter told Christians to “ADD” to their faith, and the apostle John told his little children that they have to “WALK in the Light” in order to be cleansed from ALL sin – 2 Pet. 1:5 & 1 Jn. 1:7). In reality, many in the Harlot Church today are simply saying that to obey the instructions of Scripture to be a doer of the word is to lack trust in His vicarious obedience, which consequently reveals (at least in their own minds) that you are a foreigner to grace. So, what results from this teaching is that people never repent (in the Biblical sense) and sit around idly trusting that one day they will be made a New Creature by some form of Divine Magic. When this transformation NEVER comes about, then some may indeed begin to reason amongst themselves if they were ever saved to begin with, or if God is simply not done with them yet; but either way it matters not since salvation is not of works and no ones perfect. If you were to do your homework on this Reformed theory of Penal Substitution (which was birthed from the Roman Catholic doctrine of “Satisfaction” created by Anselm of Canterbury) you would discover the basic scheme of this teaching is that by Christ obeying God PERFECTLY in man’s stead and then by incurring the wrath of God on the cross (for man’s disobedience) that the mercy of God is accessible because God is ” “satisfied” and/or “Appeased”. If this is what God is pleased with, then it follows, by you trusting in this discourse, then you are pleasing to God. It’s important to again make the point that your salvation is sustained by “believing” this took place, which then excludes the need for personal obedience to Christ and a faith that WORKS by love.


Fallacy 7: Faith in Christ makes the law void.
Another common formula in the modern day Church is once you accept, believe, and confess (the ABC’s!) you are excused from any obligation to the Moral Law of God. (This is WHY so many professed Christians remain vile to the core.) Remember, to the Church, faith equates strictly to “trust” in the provision of Christ and not obedience to the truth! (1 Pet. 1:22) Yes, they will imply that Obedience may FOLLOW faith, but never will they copy Paul and connect obedience to initial salvation (Rom. 6:17) since in their Theology that would be WORKS! By doing this, they make DEEDS optional and by doing that they cause people to lose their souls since God will be rendering to everyone according to their DEEDS! Rom 2:7-8 & Gal. 6:7-9 (by everyone is meant the whole world, Jew and Gentile alike, and by deeds is meant love, sincerity and purity of heart NOT church attendance, church camps and Sunday potluck! (See 1 Tim. 1:5) Christ warned He did NOT come to destroy the Law, yet, this is exactly what most preaches would have you to believe about Him. (Matt. 5:17-18) Paul actually said and taught that FAITH upholds and establishes the Law (which is LOVE) in the heart. (Rom. 3:31 & 8:4) This is also explained as the Law of Liberty. (Matt. 22:37-41) Un-like the Scriptures which warn believers to NOT use abuse their freedom in Christ as a cloak for vice, sadly, too many do this very thing now because they are left with the impression from the preacher that conduct doesn’t count under grace. It’s beyond apparent that the majority remain circumcised OUTWARDLY through various adherence to Religious Worship, while INWARDLY they have never been circumcised with the circumcision made WITHOUT hands by putting off the sins of the flesh! (Col. 2:11-12) Many Scriptures show that faith and obedience are synonymous and just the same warns that faith without deeds is DEAD! (Remember, the Devils “Believe”!)
Fallacy 8: Once Saved, you are Eternally Secure.
What a MYTH! Nothing could be further from the truth of Scripture. Many evangelicals have placed their focus on refuting this ONE single aspect yet they fail to see that this doctrine is a necessity of the Born IN Sin message! (TULIP) To argue this point of Eternal Security is a waste of time, unless you first address the foundation on which it stands! (Natural Sin) Basically, the teachers of this doctrine love to say that if anyone whom God PRE-destined to glory is ultimately LOST In the end, then God is OFF the thrown. (Meaning He loses Sovereignty.) So they deny free will (not the instrument but the ability to access it of one’s own accord) and insist God elects some to Salvation and Reprobates others to Hell. (In this way man can no longer thwart Divine Will, yet consequently this position makes God the author of Good AND Evil.) This tenet is based more on theology and less on Scripture. (Although they do piece together snippets of inspired text here and there in order to prove their case.) Many verses could be adduced to expose this HERESY and the HERETICS who teach it. (Matt. 6:14-15, 18:21-35, Lk. 8:13, Jn. 6:66, 15:6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 10:12, 15:1-2, Gal. 5:4, Eph. 5:5-7, Heb. 3:14, 6:6, 10:26-31, 2 Pet. 1:10, 3:17, 1 Jn. 1:5-10, Rev. 2-3, etc..) How do Eternal Security teachers dodge so many verses that imply a conditional security for the believer? They do so by applying the passages to the process of sanctification. To understand this, you must first grasp that they disconnect God’s justifying grace from His sanctifying Spirit. (The doctrine of original sin causes them to separate justification and sanctification, UN-like the early Saints) Therefore, any passage that implies salvation is at stake is explained away as being simply a loss of rewards or a loss in fellowship for the believer. Never can or is the ACTUAL salvation of the converted soul in danger. Because under this teaching, once you’re found by Christ, you can never be separated from His love (meaning once you’re justified you’re in forever!) However, if you did lose your way (like the Prodigal son), then they would again simply conclude you were never a son to begin with or they would affirm, “once as son ALWAYS a son.” (In this instance some of these preachers will even say that God will kill you and take you to Heaven pre-maturely if you sin too much VS grace in order that you may no longer shame His blessed name!) This teaching has caused many to become complacent to the things of God and outright deceived. Nothing like this was taught in ancient times and it should be removed from the pulpits today.


Fallacy 9: Judgment will be determined by faith alone, not by anything you do.
Listen, what does it profit, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? No! Bible faith is ALWAYS accompanied with action or it’s termed as the Devil’s faith! (Jas. 2:19) Obedience to the truth is what purifies the heart – not trust in a provision! (Acts 15:9 & 1 Pet. 1:22) Only the pure in heart will see God, which means, ONLY those who follow Christ have Life! (Matt. 5:8) Negate this and become reprobate according to the faith! (1 Cor. 9:27) Jesus taught His servants to be “doers” of the word (Lk. 6:46-49), and James warned that IF you’re a hearer only, then you deceive yourself! (Jas. 1:22) In the Bible, judgment is according to DEEDS not a mere one time belief! (Rom. 2:6-8, 1 Pet. 1:17, Rev. 22:12) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad says the Bible! Who are you going to listen to? God or your preacher’s theology? Wake up. In the Bible you reap what you sow! (Gal. 6:7-9) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live is the Gospel. (Rom. 8:13) It’s really that simple to understand! What you DO matters! I invite you to be a DOER of the word today. Put it into practice to the saving of your soul! Negate it and you’ll be sent away at the Judgment!


Fallacy 10: Christians sin daily in thought, word and deed, but are not held accountable to God because He sees Jesus instead of you.
This is 100% Reformed theology. It’s based wholly on natural concupiscence (what they would term as the proof of original sin!) Mere temptation is always equated to sinfulness under this teaching which leads the people to think they are sinning EVERY TIME they are tempted! (The fallacy here is that if temptation is sin, then Jesus would have sinned since He was tempted in all points as we are withOUT sin! See Heb. 4:15) In the Bible, until the WILL connects with the desire, there is NO SIN! (Jas. 1:14-15) Jesus taught those who came to Him as well to go and SIN NO MORE! (Jn. 5:14 & 8:11) John said if you’re born of God, you don’t continue TO sin! (1 Jn. 3:9) Paul said those who call on the name of Christ DEPART from Iniquity! (2 Tim. 2:19) The point is, a Christian is a saint, not a justified sinner! (The reason they teach that a Christian is a sinner is because they believe the guilt is removed but the sin NATURE remains.) Think about it for a minute though. How can one violate the Law daily through sinning AND uphold by the Law by faith at the same time as instructed in Romans 3:31? If God can’t see me AFTER conversion, then how come I am chastised as a believer over my conduct? (Heb. 12) What a Hoax! If my FUTURE sins are gone, why would Peter waste him time to tell me that I could forget I was cleansed from my OLD sins? (2 Pet. 1:9) Makes no sense! Don’t be deceived! God can see you! Nothing is hidden from the Lord’s sight, saith the Scripture, to whom we must give account! (Heb. 4:13) That’s WHY you are told to live Holy and to do the right thing in all matters by faith. You must keep a clear conscience before God and man and continually be conforming into the image of Christ. (Acts 24:16) Jesus was our example, not substitute – remember that! If you live in sin or produce rotten fruit you are of the Devil according to the word of God! Christ came to “destroy” the works of the devil NOT cover them up. (1 Jn. 3:8) Remember Paul’s admonition: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!” (Rom. 6:1-2) Sin is explained to be transgression of the law in the Bible! (1 Jn. 3:4) Being born is NOT sin! Your nature is Not sin since if it were, it would condemn virtue and approve vice! This is utter nonsense. Wake up to the true nature of sin and take some responsibility for your own depravity by your repeated practice. You are a servant to whom YOU obey! (Rom. 6:16) Conclusion Natural sin, Substitution, Moral Transfer, Imputed Righteousness and Eternal Security are NOT taught in the Bible. They were each INVENTED at some point in history LONG after the early Church passed away. Most of the fallacies are based on Pagan Teachings from ancient Rome. All this can easily be confirmed by study of historical documents available on line with a close comparison of Bible Scripture. The early Christians taught and believed that Jesus was a teacher of righteousness by example. Sound doctrine meant godly living. Jesus’ death on the cross was a ransom to rescue man from the corrupting influence of sin. Faith purified the heart by obedience to the truth and repentance meant you STOP sinning before the Holy Spirit could indwell (Acts 5:32). Judgment was according to deeds done in the body and both repentance and faith were PROVEN by deeds.

source:- http://tinyurl.com/au9ssv5
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#3
Wow, that is long. I haven't gone over it step by step, but I get the idea.

To make a very long story short, the present day church needs to meet God their Father and to learn all about the plan He had to send His Son for our salvation, a plan put in place at creation.

When Christ fulfilled and made complete this plan, most of the church is misunderstanding just what the covenant is between our triune God and us. If we deny the thousands of years God used to teach and prepare us, we get a wrong idea.
 
G

gracethroughfaith

Guest
#4
Skinski7:
Well done brother. If only more people would put there trust in God rather than man to teach them all things.

John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
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#5
It is not my fault that the old man sinned, but it can be my fault if I approve of evil. I don't approve of evil and still have the motivated free will to love by the power of God.
 
Sep 7, 2012
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#6
If man is not a fallen creature then explain why God required a "sin offering" for the condition of sin. The Trespass offering was for sins we did and knew about but the "sin offering" was because there is some inherent evil in our nature. Both offerings were required for a person to be acceptable to God.

Without the substitutionary sacrifice we will be required to earn our salvation and clearly scripture tells us the salvation is a gift and cannot be earned. Clearly during the Temple era the animal sacrifices were a substitutionary sacrifice, God's instructions in the old Testament specifically trll us that the sins were transferred from the person to the animal.

Part of the confusion has historically been the misunderstanding of the definition of faith. Belief is not equal to faith, faith requires action, AND it is faith that is required by God not belief.

I dont know where you cut and pasted that long rant but it is not orthodox at all and is mostly diabolical.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#7
This OP thread is 100% anti-Christ, anti-cross, anti-salvation by grace, anti-finished work, anti-church and anti-body of Christ. This is a 100% departure from the faith that we have according to the work of the cross, the grace of God, the imputed and imparted righteousness of God and the great and precious promises of God. This comes from a heart that has has no grace and is departing from the living God. I have no idea who this person is are even care to know what he believes. There is nothing in this OP thread that will edify and build believers up in Christ. There is absolutely not a single measure of grace revealed in this tearing down of the church and body of Christ and its doctrine that comes from the Head, Christ. This should be avoided by those who love God and depend upon God's provisions of His mercy and grace in all things. Believers that walk by faith and are growing in grace cleave to the promises of God by faith and anything contrary to that comes of evil to destroy and take away what we have been given through the goodness of God.

There seems to be a great effort in the world of professing Christianity to destroy the work of our Lord Jesus Christ and His words of doctrine that He has given to sanctify the church and members of His body by using the name of the Holy Spirit to do so. They are causing much contention concerning the name and work of Christ by assigning to the Holy Spirit a work and undertaking that the Spirit has never taken on nor given witness to in the midst of the body and in the spirit of man as the truth. These are those that are turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by indicting believers who trust in the purity of the grace of God by faith for salvation that was given to them through faith as undeserving sinners. They are trying to replace our precious faith with the leaven of a counterfeit righteousness that is based upon the fruits and works of the law and not according to the faith of the Son of God who fulfilled the law through His own life and gave us grace and truth through the Holy Spirit to be fulfilled in Him and through Him.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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#8
Fallacy 1: Sin is an inbred disease people are born with.
This is the main misconception that necessitates and influences all other Bible teachings within the Church. (Don’t think it doesn’t, it DOES!) Before debating any other theological positions, you must address the subject of man. Many fail to see the importance of correctly dividing choice from nature, but it’s obvious, they are opposites. The idea of an “inbred” nature causing people to sin totally eliminates freewill and in the end provides an excuse for the sinner (my body made me do it!). By preachers embracing this concept, they automatically eliminate the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and promise people liberty in Christ while are still in bondage to their numerous sins. This then is WHY so many have been led to a prayer for salvation, but never repentance. On numerous occasions I have discussed this teaching with others from the system only to be misunderstood and in some instances ridiculed. This doctrine is engrained in the minds of the people for sure. Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression, I am usually met with a blank stare or outlandish explanation (in some cases I have been urged to speak with the person’s preacher for clarification). It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what I can show people from Scripture, once their mind is infected with this teaching it is nearly impossible to awaken them to errors of this message! Sadly, I have yet to meet anyone in my local area who correctly understands that this doctrine of natural sin was not taught in the Patristic era of the Church (research it and be Set Free!). It’s really unbelievable! “How can so many be blind to this fallacy,” you may wonder as I once did myself. Typically, as I have learned, since Systematic Theology runs the evangelical world today, Bible exegesis are normally traced back to Augustine of Hippo and no further. Thus, the teachers who came before Augustine (first 400 years of the Church) and his opponents (like Pelagius) are usually termed as heretics all too quickly and disregarded as Biblical illiterate. It’s easy to see then why people are quick to put individuals like me who see the errors of Augustine in a similar category. Truly, until the religious Church establishment wakes up to the fact that their precious doctrine of Original Sin is Pagan, they will fail to comprehend the origins of their own religion (Christianity!) in which they profess to be apart of! What blindness!
Your denial of total depravity would imply that the natural man is capable of living perfect holy life without the sovereign work of Christ and salvation is not by the God's grace. On the contrary, according to the scriptures, everyone is born with a corrupt nature and is far from righteous until they are redeemed by the blood of Christ. There is nothing the natural man can do to meet the holy standard of God; this is why Christ had to offer Himself to atone for sins. To say that the fall of man did not affect humanity means that we do not need Christ's redemption. Inbred sin explains why no one comes into this world seeking righteousness but is inclined to sin (Psalms 58:3). Salvation is through Christ alone.
Rom 5:12-21
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The death here is spiritual death. Spiritual death was passed upon every human born to this earth and they will remain in that state until they are born again.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
No one is born into the world as a saint without the need of salvation. Even though one did not sin after the similitude of Adam they are still separated from God and need to be reconciled with Him through Jesus Christ.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#9
Your denial of total depravity would imply that the natural man is capable of living perfect holy life without the sovereign work of Christ and salvation is not by the God's grace. On the contrary, according to the scriptures, everyone is born with a corrupt nature and is far from righteous until they are redeemed by the blood of Christ. There is nothing the natural man can do to meet the holy standard of God; this is why Christ had to offer Himself to atone for sins. To say that the fall of man did not affect humanity means that we do not need Christ's redemption. Inbred sin explains why no one comes into this world seeking righteousness but is inclined to sin (Psalms 58:3). Salvation is through Christ alone.
Rom 5:12-21
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The death here is spiritual death. Spiritual death was passed upon every human born to this earth and they will remain in that state until they are born again.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
No one is born into the world as a saint without the need of salvation. Even though one did not sin after the similitude of Adam they are still separated from God and need to be reconciled with Him through Jesus Christ.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

While scripture does indeed indicate man's depraved state, the beautiful thing about salvation is that once the Holy Spirit inhabits a believer, he or she is no longer bound by depravity; if and only if he or she chooses to walk in (commune with) the Holy Spirit. :)
 
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starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#10
While scripture does indeed indicate man's depraved state, the beautiful thing about salvation is that once the Holy Spirit inhabits a believer, he or she is no longer bound by depravity; if and only if he or she chooses to walk in (commune with) the Holy Spirit. :)
Amen! You are 100% correct.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#11
Red33: This OP thread is 100% anti-Christ, anti-cross, anti-salvation by grace, anti-finished work, anti-church and anti-body of Christ. This is a 100% departure from the faith that we have according to the work of the cross, the grace of God, the imputed and imparted righteousness of God and the great and precious promises of God. This comes from a heart that has has no grace and is departing from the living God. I have no idea who this person is are even care to know what he believes. There is nothing in this OP thread that will edify and build believers up in Christ. There is absolutely not a single measure of grace revealed in this tearing down of the church and body of Christ and its doctrine that comes from the Head, Christ. This should be avoided by those who love God and depend upon God's provisions of His mercy and grace in all things. Believers that walk by faith and are growing in grace cleave to the promises of God by faith and anything contrary to that comes of evil to destroy and take away what we have been given through the goodness of God.

There seems to be a great effort in the world of professing Christianity to destroy the work of our Lord Jesus Christ and His words of doctrine that He has given to sanctify the church and members of His body by using the name of the Holy Spirit to do so. They are causing much contention concerning the name and work of Christ by assigning to the Holy Spirit a work and undertaking that the Spirit has never taken on nor given witness to in the midst of the body and in the spirit of man as the truth. These are those that are turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by indicting believers who trust in the purity of the grace of God by faith for salvation that was given to them through faith as undeserving sinners. They are trying to replace our precious faith with the leaven of a counterfeit righteousness that is based upon the fruits and works of the law and not according to the faith of the Son of God who fulfilled the law through His own life and gave us grace and truth through the Holy Spirit to be fulfilled in Him and through Him.
Your words are the ones that are harming Christ’s work. Here is a partial list: Anti, departure, has no grace, departing from the living God.no grace revealed, destroy, take away, lasciviousness ,undeserving, counterfeit .

Your message is against the holy law. And when you say law, you make it clear that you mean all of God’s instructions. It isn’t, to you, Paul saying that rituals are not required for salvation, but all of God. That is not right to say, it is not truth.

You talk a lot about faith, using it as a reason to not listen to the written law. Yet in scripture, our doing is the result of our faith in our Lord and His instructions.
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,

If there is faith, there is action following.

You are some way linking grace and works. Since the day that God created the world and man, no man has worked his way to holiness. Salvation has always been through grace, and through Christ. For thousands of years the blood of animals was used as a shadow of Christ, a foretelling of Christ, but salvation has never been through works. It is a free gift.

You say that listening to God the Father and His instructions is not relying on Christ and what He did for us. Christ said that if we know Moses we know Him. You say that when Christ fulfilled and made complete, it wiped out what went before. It added, finished, made complete and that is not destroying anything. The book of Hebrews explains it well. There was no need for some of it any more, there was no need for the blood of animals. The Holy Spirit enhanced the law, it did not wipe out anything.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#12
Your words are the ones that are harming Christ’s work. Here is a partial list: Anti, departure, has no grace, departing from the living God.no grace revealed, destroy, take away, lasciviousness ,undeserving, counterfeit .

Your message is against the holy law. And when you say law, you make it clear that you mean all of God’s instructions. It isn’t, to you, Paul saying that rituals are not required for salvation, but all of God. That is not right to say, it is not truth.

You talk a lot about faith, using it as a reason to not listen to the written law. Yet in scripture, our doing is the result of our faith in our Lord and His instructions.
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He received the promises and he was offering his unique son,

If there is faith, there is action following.

You are some way linking grace and works. Since the day that God created the world and man, no man has worked his way to holiness. Salvation has always been through grace, and through Christ. For thousands of years the blood of animals was used as a shadow of Christ, a foretelling of Christ, but salvation has never been through works. It is a free gift.

You say that listening to God the Father and His instructions is not relying on Christ and what He did for us. Christ said that if we know Moses we know Him. You say that when Christ fulfilled and made complete, it wiped out what went before. It added, finished, made complete and that is not destroying anything. The book of Hebrews explains it well. There was no need for some of it any more, there was no need for the blood of animals. The Holy Spirit enhanced the law, it did not wipe out anything.
You dont understand Red or Sinski...your entitled to your opinion.
Id advise you to look a llittle closer tho. Reds message would never be
against the Law of God...he knows its holy just and good.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,090
191
63
#13
This OP thread is 100% anti-Christ, anti-cross, anti-salvation by grace, anti-finished work, anti-church and anti-body of Christ. This is a 100% departure from the faith that we have according to the work of the cross, the grace of God, the imputed and imparted righteousness of God and the great and precious promises of God. This comes from a heart that has has no grace and is departing from the living God. I have no idea who this person is are even care to know what he believes. There is nothing in this OP thread that will edify and build believers up in Christ. There is absolutely not a single measure of grace revealed in this tearing down of the church and body of Christ and its doctrine that comes from the Head, Christ. This should be avoided by those who love God and depend upon God's provisions of His mercy and grace in all things. Believers that walk by faith and are growing in grace cleave to the promises of God by faith and anything contrary to that comes of evil to destroy and take away what we have been given through the goodness of God.

There seems to be a great effort in the world of professing Christianity to destroy the work of our Lord Jesus Christ and His words of doctrine that He has given to sanctify the church and members of His body by using the name of the Holy Spirit to do so. They are causing much contention concerning the name and work of Christ by assigning to the Holy Spirit a work and undertaking that the Spirit has never taken on nor given witness to in the midst of the body and in the spirit of man as the truth. These are those that are turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by indicting believers who trust in the purity of the grace of God by faith for salvation that was given to them through faith as undeserving sinners. They are trying to replace our precious faith with the leaven of a counterfeit righteousness that is based upon the fruits and works of the law and not according to the faith of the Son of God who fulfilled the law through His own life and gave us grace and truth through the Holy Spirit to be fulfilled in Him and through Him.

If the obedience to Yahvah God came through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah then all you write does not apply.

If one believes not in Yahshua the Messiah being the only sin offering to Yahvah God then yes they will not be covered by Grace and will not be part of the New Covenant.

They will be trying to establish their own salvation based on their own obedience that can not pardon their sin.

Yahshua the Messiah came into the world through the Old Covenant to bring us the New Covenant of Yahvah God.


So through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah are we part of the New Covenant...

Our heart becomes circumcised and we find the Law of Love within us.



I believe that the 10 Commandments are what we learn to live by through Faith in Yahshua the Messiah to serve Yahvah God.

I did not think this up, i witness this is what took place in my life..

i'm a lowly person with an Almighty, Loving, Righteous Yahvah God who never left me... but guided me to Yahshua the Messiah.


For i always believed in Yahvah God and believed Yahshua to be his son... i had never heard why he came into the world though...

At the lowest point in my life i begged for Help and he came and guides me each and every day.

Do you know how i learnt how great my sins were?


Through the amount of Love and Gratitude i have for Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.... i say that in a humble way....















Hebrews 9

9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
59
0
#14
Oh brother!
The mistakes are evident.
I have noticed through all the arguing that goes back and forth, no one seems to change their mind.
Infact, facing opposition tends to harden stances and not change minds.
I have decided henceforth to stop engaging in this exercise of 'biblical wrangling'.
And concentrate on those who come to this site asking for help.
Life is too short to spend it hardening hearts.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,090
191
63
#15
Be sure it is not your own heart hardening to the Truth my friend.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#16
Oh brother!
The mistakes are evident.
I have noticed through all the arguing that goes back and forth, no one seems to change their mind.
Infact, facing opposition tends to harden stances and not change minds.
I have decided henceforth to stop engaging in this exercise of 'biblical wrangling'.
And concentrate on those who come to this site asking for help.
Life is too short to spend it hardening hearts.
Not that you shouldn't do what you believe is right,
but I, for one, will miss your words. :)
Especially for the sake of the little ones.
-ellie
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#17
Yep. lets all be pharisees. People like skinski here would have crucified Christ because Christ would have spoken against his human Good. Skinski would have killed his brother because God would have rejected his sacrifice, and received that of his brother who slew the lamb.

Skinskis doctrine has been around since Cain and Abel. Yet people still believe his anit-christ views. It just amazes me how mankind makes the same mistakes over and over.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#18
Oh brother!
The mistakes are evident.
I have noticed through all the arguing that goes back and forth, no one seems to change their mind.
Infact, facing opposition tends to harden stances and not change minds.
I have decided henceforth to stop engaging in this exercise of 'biblical wrangling'.
And concentrate on those who come to this site asking for help.
Life is too short to spend it hardening hearts.
Learning and growing in grace and truth is a daily process that involves all believers who have different capacities in receiving and learning what they hear and how they hear it. Jesus said this in (Lk 8:17,18)...

16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Mk 4:23,24
23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

These verses of inspired scripture speak to me of the individual's capacity to be able to hear and they are to take heed what they hear and how they hear. The following also...

Rom 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

There will always be others that read these posts and according to their capacity and the understanding that God gives to them through the Spirit, they will receive measures of faith through the word and doctrine they hear with the ear of the inner man, the one new man that is in Christ. That faith will build them up in grace and truth and Christ will continue to be magnified and formed in them. What happens outwardly is the result of a conflict that goes on between the Spirit and the flesh and not aways a 'whose right and whose wrong deal'. If I am being lead astray away from the truth that is in Christ, God may lead you to speak the word to others that will minister the truth to me and build me up in Christ, because that is the wisdom that God uses to get to my heart and it is justified being His child or of His children.
 
E

enochson

Guest
#19
don't care what the church teaches but the end was over before it begian for the lamb was slian before the foundation of the world.
 
W

webchatter

Guest
#20
Wow this is sad for me to see the 1st MEAN comments ever on this website. I read Skinski7's post & understood it & everyone else's. Why the ANGER & accusations of such awful things by the commenters to the original posts? Not being familiar with any of you, it's obvious who is full of rage & anger.
Regardless of anyone's denomination, some of us have such different CORE beliefs that some cannot even agree on the most simple of Christian basics.
As a new member to this site,what i got so far out of this thread is that: Newborn babies are totally depraved & sinners. Some people believe up to a certain age all kids are at least partially depraved & sinners up to the age of what 7, when they choose Jesus. then They must get baptized, confess their sins, ask Jesus into their heart, IF they were predestined to be chosen.Then they are no longer partailly depraved or sinners. Then they are saved, it's written in the book of life, no matter what sin they commit in the future, they have been chosen so they have no fear of thier sins, they are washed away. Therefore the worst sins ever committed, were adam's, & ours were from birth to age 7.
I also learned that according to some Cristian's core belief's: IF a man had no spiritual training, but knew how to read, & had no human contact after learning to read, was alone on an island since he was a child & a BIble washed up on shore in a waterproof container, & this man read the bible, I believe there would be very different beliefs concerning the man's salvation.
If the man Put his love of Jesus into his heart, wished no bad things to happen to anyone, would he be saved? He doesn't know the sinner's prayer. He doesn't officially baptize himself. He just loves His Messiah. Most Christians would probably say he was going to hell. I don't agree. I think that's one of the original thread poster's points. That sometimes, over a period of intense scrutiny,study,theology, generations of mouth to mouth convincing, some times we are wrong. Sometimes we change our mind about what we were taught. (Already another current thread). I don't care how OLD anyone is, we can still LEARN. I commend anyone for scrutininzing their own beliefs, how else can we strive for perfection unless we scrutinize ourselves 1st?
Maybe some of us think we don't have to be perfect & that we already know everything perfectly. If that's the case, that's exactly WHO SHOULD BE SCRUTIZING THEMSELVES.