What's the big deal?

[River_W]

One thing that I've always wondered is why Christians who believe in evolution get persecuted so much? This seems to happen so often on CC, and it's quite disheartening. Somehow, only on this site am I not accepted as a "true Christian" because I do not take the creation story literally. Yet, in my community of academics and in my Bible study, I am considered a very faithful Christian. I told my Bible study students that I believe in evolution. Some disagreed with me, but we just shrugged our shoulders and moved onto worship.

I believe that God is the creator of this universe. Does it really matter how exactly it came to be? We still have an awesome God to praise. I believe that Jesus died so we might find salvation through him, yet I let slip that the Earth is probably older than we think, and I'm a heretic! Am I sinning in some sort of way by believing this?

Whether one believes the Earth was created in six days or over billions of years, what does it really matter? Neither opinion indicates a true follower of Christ! How hostile some of the creationists and the evolutionists seem to be reacting to each other seems to give me doubts about who really are taking to heart the message of Jesus.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[kenisyes]

I don't take the creation story the way most people do, either. I do not like most of creation science's theories, because they are based on the English Bible, not on the Hebrew. But I don't believe we got here by evolution. I did when I was young, but by age 16, I started realizing the math doesn't check; there are too many errors in it.

It would be interesting to hear how you interpret the creation story.

The reason so many Christians do not like evolution, is that if it is how we got here, then we are like accidents. The universe went on recombining at random until be sheer accident, sentient life happened. And that, understandably took a long time, because as an accident, it is not very likely. If we are accidents, we have no greater purpose in life than to be alive. Christians like to believe that God has a greater purpose for us. I realize there are ways to believe in a kind of God-guided evolution that solves this problem, but not everyone is aware of those ideas.

 

[Jordache]

There are many pieces to evolution and people don't quite understand that. Macro and micro-evolution, the Big Bang theory, string theory, etc. I do not claim to know the ins an outs of them all, but what I do know is that God created the world and everything in it. The creations stories are not literal in nature. They are based off several creations stories that were around from the time they were inspired. Why, because God builds off what we do know to help us understand what we don't know. The main difference between the biblical creation stories and the other stories is the focus. The pinnacle of Gods creation was making man in His image. The story was not about who came first. It was about the uniqueness and importance of mans authority, identity, and purpose.
I am not convinced of macro-evolution (man came from apes), but micro evolution is neither anti-biblical nor implausible. In fact it occurs today. I do not believe in the Big Bang theory for the simple reason that science itself actually disproves it. Small changes occur all the time. Large changes are the eventual sum of lots of small changes combined.
Regardless of whether you completely disagree with me, I am not concerned so much with your belief on evolution. I have three friends who were philosophy and psychology double majors. I disagree with a lot that they argue, but they are no less my brothers because they have different beliefs on some topics.

 

[Stephen63]

Whenever anyone refuses the facts of Scripture, or the history of Scripture, and proclaims themselves to be Christians, that's a big deal. The first two chapters of Genesis speaks about creation and how everything was made. To reject this is to reject Moses, because he wrote it. To reject Moses writings, one must reject God, for it is He who inspired Moses what to write. To hold to a theory that's not covered by Scripture is one thing. but to place a theory over the authority of Scripture is nothing less than rebellious.The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. if a person believes that portions of the Bible are theory, their salvation is not steadfast because they do not trust the Word.

 

[River_W]

I don't take the creation story the way most people do, either. I do not like most of creation science's theories, because they are based on the English Bible, not on the Hebrew. But I don't believe we got here by evolution. I did when I was young, but by age 16, I started realizing the math doesn't check; there are too many errors in it.

It would be interesting to hear how you interpret the creation story.

The reason so many Christians do not like evolution, is that if it is how we got here, then we are like accidents. The universe went on recombining at random until be sheer accident, sentient life happened. And that, understandably took a long time, because as an accident, it is not very likely. If we are accidents, we have no greater purpose in life than to be alive. Christians like to believe that God has a greater purpose for us. I realize there are ways to believe in a kind of God-guided evolution that solves this problem, but not everyone is aware of those ideas.

I didn't realize that many Christians viewed evolution as some cosmic accident. That's usually an atheistic approach. I've always seen evolution as God willed and guided.

 

[Relena7]

One thing that I've always wondered is why Christians who believe in evolution get persecuted so much? This seems to happen so often on CC, and it's quite disheartening. Somehow, only on this site am I not accepted as a "true Christian" because I do not take the creation story literally. Yet, in my community of academics and in my Bible study, I am considered a very faithful Christian. I told my Bible study students that I believe in evolution. Some disagreed with me, but we just shrugged our shoulders and moved onto worship.

I believe that God is the creator of this universe. Does it really matter how exactly it came to be? We still have an awesome God to praise. I believe that Jesus died so we might find salvation through him, yet I let slip that the Earth is probably older than we think, and I'm a heretic! Am I sinning in some sort of way by believing this?

Whether one believes the Earth was created in six days or over billions of years, what does it really matter? Neither opinion indicates a true follower of Christ! How hostile some of the creationists and the evolutionists seem to be reacting to each other seems to give me doubts about who really are taking to heart the message of Jesus.

Thoughts, anyone?

I don't see why it's a big deal either. But it apparently is to some.

I personally don't see how evolution and the big bang elaborately get in the way of what God says. The bible uses metaphors all the time. I wouldn't respect the bible any less if the evolution thing was proven 100% and it was announced in the newspapers today. My entire outlook on life does not revolve around man's literal interpretation of how the bible says the world was started.

What really disturbs my soul is to see so many people argue about it. I agree that evolution makes the most sense. But the word "evolution" makes me cringe inside, because it is a reminder of how bitterly people disagree about it, and I know an ugly debate is about to follow. My own mom doesn't think it happened, but I do. We don't argue about it, but it's still there.

 

[River_W]

Whenever anyone refuses the facts of Scripture, or the history of Scripture, and proclaims themselves to be Christians, that's a big deal. The first two chapters of Genesis speaks about creation and how everything was made. To reject this is to reject Moses, because he wrote it. To reject Moses writings, one must reject God, for it is He who inspired Moses what to write. To hold to a theory that's not covered by Scripture is one thing. but to place a theory over the authority of Scripture is nothing less than rebellious.The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. if a person believes that portions of the Bible are theory, their salvation is not steadfast because they do not trust the Word.

I'm definitely not trying to send the message that I am denying Scripture. I believe that it is absolutely True and God breathed.

I'm not saying that creation is wrong or that evolution is right. I admit that I can very well be wrong, and I'm fine with that. The obvious fact is that we are here, we have an earth to live on, and that God is to thank for that.

In 6th grade, my religion teacher told our class, "Everything in the Bible is true, but not everything is fact."
Did the Tower of Babel story actually happen? I don't know! Lesson learned from it: Limit pride. We are not gods. That was his point.

But I agree with you 100% Stephen, that we cannot just replace the stories of Scripture with our own. I don't think many scientific theories are doing that, though.

If neither party is denying the truth of Scripture, and where one stands does not determine salvation, I just don't see why one party has to demonize the other. It's not loving thy neighbor.

 

[kenisyes]

I didn't realize that many Christians viewed evolution as some cosmic accident. That's usually an atheistic approach. I've always seen evolution as God willed and guided.

It shows the difference in our ages. I first started hearing about directed evolution 10 or 15 years ago. For you, that was most of your life. For me, it was a later attempt at compromise. When I ws your age, it was presented to me as God set up the chemical reactions and walked away.

 

[sanglina]

Hi Rivers,
I would like to share few things with you. Recently, I attended a two days lecture on "Evolution or Creation" and Prof. Andy Mcintosh (an expert in thermodynamics from University of Leeds, England) a scientist and a believer in Jesus was the speaker. After giving a minute demonstration on various evidences debunking the theory of evolution, He concluded by saying, "Evolution is NOT science but a false philosophy". Science draws its inferences from empirical evidence whereas in the case of evolution, there is no evidence. It is a hypothetical theory aimed to delude/led astray Christians from believing in the Word of God (Creation theory).

One thing he said that strikes me was that the devil (satan) was/is so crafty that he is now not only attacking from OUTSIDE (through non-christians) but is doing it from INSIDE (within Christians) as there are now Christians who create a room to accommodate/fit evolution into genesis account. But the Word of God is so very clear in genesis.

And this is why I believed in genesis literally: The book of genesis lays the foundation for the rest of the Bible. It records the creation and mankind's fall into sin. It also tells of the promise of salvation in Christ which the rest of the bible is all about. Without genesis, the bible doesnot make sense. Jesus came to restore what Adam had lost. If Adam never existed or never sinned, Jesus need never have come. NO ADAM, NO CHRIST!

God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent (all knowing, all powerful and of infinite resources). As such, there is in principle nothing unreasonable or unscientific in such a Creator God making all things in six (6) days or even six seconds (or less!). Remember, Jesus raised Lazarus from the tomb, calmed the storms, literally walked on the water, turned water into wine and healed many disabled and sick people. He did all this with a single command of Word like in the Creation account of genesis (Jesus did not need the process of evolution to do all this). Therefore its a big deal to believe in the Creation account because that is where the foundation of our faith lies.

PS: I come from science background and had a hard time on evolution and creation theory during college days, but by the grace of God (through a series of study on the subject matter), I now no longer struggle as I can finally lay my faith in the creation theory.

God bless !!!

 

[megaman125]

When you really get into evolution, specifically the historical claims that have no evidence (we have evidence for micro evolutiion), it's used as a means to deny a Creator. I don't think Christians should be welcoming such doctrines, and there's really no reason to. The historical claims of evolution always come down to a faith based belief system with no rational reason to believe it. The Bible says we're not supposed to be welcoming to false doctrine.

 

[Stephen63]

I think sometimes Christians can be categorized as "bashers" when all they are really doing is taking a stand for the Scriptures. Notice what the Bible says in Ephesians 5:11 (NASB) 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
It is the Christian's responsibility to expose any false doctrine, regardless of whether it is taught under science, or religion. Such teaching is false doctrine because it disagrees with Scripture. Christians are expected to live their lives "by the book", not by what the science community says. We think we have the right to believe what we want; but a true Christian does not. As bond servants, we are to fatefully believe and obey our master, Jesus Christ. Romans 3:4 says: "Let God be true, and every man a liar."

 

[gideon007]

hello River_W, i just got this videos from the sermontube room, and i thought this might give you other perspective on the difference between evolution and creation.

part 1
Creation Seminar 1 - Kent Hovind - Age of the Earth (FULL) - YouTube

part2
Creation Seminar 2 - Kent Hovind - Garden of Eden (FULL) - YouTube

 

[River_W]

Thanks for your input everyone! It was very helpful. We seemed to have proceeded argument free, which is nice!

I still don't really see why one's view on this subject matters as far as faith in Christ goes--why the creationists have to convince the evolutionist are wrong and vice-versa, so they may have their "eyes opened" to the Gospel in some fashion fuller than before. Unless you are using science to try to change Scripture or deny the existence of God, which isn't even possible, or Scripture as a topic to fight incessantly about, I don't understand the hard-hardheartedness of people toward each other. And I just can't see the false doctrine in evolution when you view it in light of the creation story and recognize God's hand in science.

Maybe I'm just to much of an optimist when it comes to humans actually understand one another.

In Christ,
River

 

[River_W]

It shows the difference in our ages. I first started hearing about directed evolution 10 or 15 years ago. For you, that was most of your life. For me, it was a later attempt at compromise. When I ws your age, it was presented to me as God set up the chemical reactions and walked away.

That's unfortunate. Makes it seem like God kind of left us here, doesn't it? In which case, there would be no reason for Christ.

It's so confusing being a theology and biology double major sometimes! But thank God that I go to a Christian school because even the evolution unit in biology, our professors have to address this issue. And in my theology classes, when we talk about Genesis, my professor has to address evolution. In the end both teach directed evolution as the generally accepted explanation, though sometimes that can be seen as trying to find middle ground between the two teachings.

 

[megaman125]

That's unfortunate. Makes it seem like God kind of left us here, doesn't it? In which case, there would be no reason for Christ.

It's so confusing being a theology and biology double major sometimes! But thank God that I go to a Christian school because even the evolution unit in biology, our professors have to address this issue. And in my theology classes, when we talk about Genesis, my professor has to address evolution. In the end both teach directed evolution as the generally accepted explanation, though sometimes that can be seen as trying to find middle ground between the two teachings.

The main issue I'd see offhand with directed evolution and Genesis is this:

In Genesis, the Bible says God created all the animals during the 6 days of creation. In the theory of evolution, a single living cell evolved over billiions of years and branched off into every animal we see today. So aparently the book of Genesis must be wrong, and God didn't create the animals, but rather created a cell which evolved over billions of years.

I find God's Word to be more trustable than what scientists claim about the history and creation of life and the universe.

 

[kenisyes]

That's unfortunate. Makes it seem like God kind of left us here, doesn't it? In which case, there would be no reason for Christ.

It's so confusing being a theology and biology double major sometimes! But thank God that I go to a Christian school because even the evolution unit in biology, our professors have to address this issue. And in my theology classes, when we talk about Genesis, my professor has to address evolution. In the end both teach directed evolution as the generally accepted explanation, though sometimes that can be seen as trying to find middle ground between the two teachings.

That's exactly my point. Your question concerned not who is right, but why the heated debate and the attacks from both sides. When evolution was God walking away, it implied Jesus serves no purpose, and that's why the two sides became so aggressive. Creationists thought it was a plot to do away with God, and evolutionists thought it was a plot to impose an impossible view of God into science.

Have you heard these two:

Evolutionist to God: We don't need you anymore, we can make people now.
God: Show me.
Evolutionist: Okay, give me some dirt.
God: Go make your own dirt.

Directed evolutionist: God patiently worked for 5 billion years to get all this wonderful creation done.
God: That's just how long it would have taken YOU.

This is me talking, not quoting jokes: I can prove we (not God) invented the cumulative passage of time through comparative linguistics. Does that change or solve anything?

 

[sanglina]

Thanks for your input everyone! It was very helpful. We seemed to have proceeded argument free, which is nice!

I still don't really see why one's view on this subject matters as far as faith in Christ goes--why the creationists have to convince the evolutionist are wrong and vice-versa, so they may have their "eyes opened" to the Gospel in some fashion fuller than before. Unless you are using science to try to change Scripture or deny the existence of God, which isn't even possible, or Scripture as a topic to fight incessantly about, I don't understand the hard-hardheartedness of people toward each other. And I just can't see the false doctrine in evolution when you view it in light of the creation story and recognize God's hand in science.

Maybe I'm just to much of an optimist when it comes to humans actually understand one another.

In Christ,
River

Hi Rivers,

To supplement my earlier comment and also in relevance to your queries, I would like to share few more things.

Why do we say evolution is a false doctrine?
Because it claims that God is not necessary to origins, that the universe effectively made itself. It is a concept that DENIES a Creator, NOT from evidence but as a fundamental presupposition. Examine anything as minutely as you may and always the most intricate and profound evidence of deliberate design emerges. Such order and harmony and design in nature do not and can not emerge by themselves (as evolutionists maintained). We are ourselves coded in our DNA like a computer is by a programmer. Chance processes (evolution) do not produce the fantastic complexity and design of DNA, just as accidental assemblages of computer language cannot program a computer. It has all been planned and programmed by a Supreme God. Jesus Himself testify to the OT as completely true and trustworthy, quoting from them frequently. In particular, He refers to Adam and Eve as real people (Mt 19:4-6) and speaks of Noah and the flood as an example of God's judgement in history (see Mt 24:37-39).

Now, does it matter whether you believe in evolution or creation as a Christian? Yes, it certainly does! Because evolution is a theory which requires death, suffering and waste on a vast scale over immense stretches of time, fuelled by GENETIC MISTAKES and DEPENDENT on mere CHANCE. Could the perfect God of love depicted in the bible ever use such a haphazard, imperfect and cruel process? Genesis chapter one and Exodus 20:11 clearly states that God made all things out of NOTHING by the POWER of His SPOKEN WORD in a definite period of six, 24 days. Therefore, God did not use an evolutionary process.

The biblical account of creation is in total conformity with the good and loving character of God as revealed in Scripture and in the person of Christ. The present disorder and suffering in the world are the result of mankind's fall into sin (as recorded in genesis), NOT the continuing effects of evolutionary struggle.

Ps: The biggest UNSOLVED mystery of evolution is how non-life became life.

God Bless!!!

 

[Stephen63]

When anyone is willing to accept theories outside of Christianity that would override the Scriptures and at the same time claim to be a Christian, I would have to question their commitment to Christ. If Jesus is first in our lives, His word is first in our lives. No scientific fact or theory should EVER supersede it. So, yes, it's a very big deal.

 

[TAZorek]

In the beginning God 'created' the Heavens and the earth. Mankind and the beasts of the field. Ever made anything with your own hands? Did it take time or did it just appear out of no where? I find it easier to believe God works miracles rather than doing magic tricks. The possibility of an evolutionary type creation, made from scratch, does not interfere with my faith or relationship with Jesus. How else could this world and everything in it succeed as they do from one generation to the next unless they were designed to do so? That type of design is more like building a giant computer program rather than a planting pot. Creation could not possibly expand as it has with out being designed to expand and with that expansion, growth. When I hear the arguments for evolution vs creation I am always brought back to the scripture: Genesis 1:27; So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. If in His image then we are eternal, Know the difference between right and wrong and have the privilege of choosing one or the other. The original programmed design lasts through out the whole of known human history, and before that. Doesn't sound like a magic trick to me. It sounds more planned than that. God foretold the end times long before anyone even dreamed that this world would someday end. That sounds controlled. If controlled, then the passing of time must be fully understood. By the designer. The God I know is a big God. Perhaps the question shouldn't be creation vs evolution - more like creation vs slight of hand. I find that I have a greater concern for where I'm going than where I came from. I'll find that out when I get where I'm going. Jesus said; "Follow me". Not figure out where You came from. Christianity moves forward. Looking back can be distracting. That's bad. Believe whatever you want I guess.

 

[OFM]

Gods Word or Everlution your choice God Said It That Settles it,Gen.1 and 2. that says it oll for God Himself need any more.