Fallacies of the Present Day Church

[marianna]

Amen to that Brother

Skinski7:

Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life - John 3:16

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. - Isaiah 53:12

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. - Romans 4:25

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5


Skinski7:
Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.

Paul:
- He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
- Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Which of these two men is your brother cfultz3?

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski7:

Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life - John 3:16

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. - Isaiah 53:12

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. - Romans 4:25

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5


Skinski7:
Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.

Paul:
- He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
- Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Which of these two men is your brother cfultz3?

Marianna,

Your mind is made up and I am not interested in wrestling with you. I saw that in how you responded to my initial response to you. You basically ignore the issues I raise and selectively pick segments with which to attack. Thus discussion with you consists of endlessly chasing tangents.

Joh 3:16. Does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Isa 53:12. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

2Cor 5:21. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Rom 4:25. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Rom 5:6-11. This passage does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

You read a doctrine that you already believe into those scriptures instead of just accepting what the Bible plainly teaches.

You cannot find Jesus teaching anything close to the teaching that He was going to absorb the wrath of God in the place of the sinner. Nor did Jesus teach anything close to a doctrine that His obedience track record was going to be credited to the believer. Jesus offered Himself on behalf of sinners and he bore the sins of the world but He most definitely was not PUNISHED by God for them. That is blasphemy and that has God punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.

In fact if Jesus was "punished" by God in "your place" then Jesus should still be in hell right now. The wages of sin was not being crucified on a cross and going down to Hades for 3 days, it is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

If Jesus was "punished" in the place of the sinner then that means He either did not die for "all men" or it means that "universal salvation" is true. Which do you prefer? It blows my mind how all these educated theologians can be so blind and not see the elephant in the room.

At least the Reformed heretics are consistent with their teaching of a Limited Atonement (L in TULIP) in regards to the Penal Substitution doctrine.

The double imputation taught under Penal Substitution where the Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ
is credited to the believer and the sin of the believer is credited to Jesus is a teaching straight from the pits of hell.

God help those who have a false assurance of being saved "while they remain double-minded workers of iniquity" because they believe in the myth of the magic cloak of Jesus and that God's wrath was satisfied and thus they remain uncondemnable.

You need to carefully examine what you believe and where it actually comes from. When one is deceived they do not know it!

 

[marianna]

cfultz3,

Paul on the matter of the perverted incestuous fornicator:

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:5

Paul on the matter of the perversion of the Gospel:

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1


Amen

firm
metaph. faithful
verily, amen

at the beginning of a discourse - surely, truly, of a truth
at the end - so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled. It was a custom, which passed over from the synagogues to the Christian assemblies, that when he who had read or discoursed, had offered up solemn prayer to God, the others responded Amen, and thus made the substance of what was uttered their own.

The word "amen" is a most remarkable word. It was transliterated directly from the Hebrew into the Greek of the New Testament, then into Latin and into English and many other languages, so that it is practically a universal word. It has been called the best known word in human speech. The word is directly related -- in fact, almost identical -- to the Hebrew word for "believe" (amam), or faithful. Thus, it came to mean "sure" or "truly", an expression of absolute trust and confidence. -- HMM

 

[cfultz3]

Marianna,

Please see post 162 as my response also. Thank you.

Specifically the first statement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Marianna,

Your mind is made up and I am not interested in wrestling with you. I saw that in how you responded to my initial response to you. You basically ignore the issues I raise and selectively pick segments with which to attack. Thus discussion with you consists of endlessly chasing tangents.

Joh 3:16. Does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Isa 53:12. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

2Cor 5:21. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Rom 4:25. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Rom 5:6-11. This passage does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

You read a doctrine that you already believe into those scriptures instead of just accepting what the Bible plainly teaches.

You cannot find Jesus teaching anything close to the teaching that He was going to absorb the wrath of God in the place of the sinner. Nor did Jesus teach anything close to a doctrine that His obedience track record was going to be credited to the believer. Jesus offered Himself on behalf of sinners and he bore the sins of the world but He most definitely was not PUNISHED by God for them. That is blasphemy and that has God punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.

In fact if Jesus was "punished" by God in "your place" then Jesus should still be in hell right now. The wages of sin was not being crucified on a cross and going down to Hades for 3 days, it is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

If Jesus was "punished" in the place of the sinner then that means He either did not die for "all men" or it means that "universal salvation" is true. Which do you prefer? It blows my mind how all these educated theologians can be so blind and not see the elephant in the room.

At least the Reformed heretics are consistent with their teaching of a Limited Atonement (L in TULIP) in regards to the Penal Substitution doctrine.

The double imputation taught under Penal Substitution where the Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ
is credited to the believer and the sin of the believer is credited to Jesus is a teaching straight from the pits of hell.

God help those who have a false assurance of being saved "while they remain double-minded workers of iniquity" because they believe in the myth of the magic cloak of Jesus and that God's wrath was satisfied and thus they remain uncondemnable.

You need to carefully examine what you believe and where it actually comes from. When one is deceived they do not know it!

I have heard of blasphemy before. but this is the worst type.

I fear there is no hope for you. I pray for your mortal soul.

If Christ did not die for your sin. You have no hope. None of us do.

ps 52. A Picture of Jesus hanging on the cross. A picture of the son of God. who spent all eternity under the love and care and presence of the father, Who in one moment lost that presence. In one minute God turned his back on him. He who knew no sin, was made sin for us, what do you think that means? Whjy was jesus made sin for us? No greater love has ANY man than he lay his life down for those he loves. God loves us so much, he shut satan up. by taking the things which were against us, which were contrary to us, and nailing them to the cross.

You think your good enough to make it to God on your own power? You think your holy enough to be right with God without redemption? You don;t know God. You don't know his righteousness or his justice. For if you did, you would not have made such blasphemous accusations against our Lord and savior!

Christ was wounded for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS? Why was Christ wounded for our sins? was this not punishment? for US??

[FONT=&quot]Is 53: 5: But He [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fell [/FONT][FONT=&quot]upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

This does not show he was chastened for us? That he was crushed because of us? and peirced because of our sin?

Upi have alot to learn my friend. Keep trying to get to God by your good deeds. You will uttertly fail


[/FONT]

 

[Skinski7]

Before people write off those who reject the Penal Substitution of the Atonement as heresy I recommend you be slow to answer and do some study on the issue first.

Penal Substitution has only been around in its present format for approximately 400 years. Dig deep and study to show thyself approved.

Here are some resources on the issue...

The Idea of the Atonement in Christian Theology, by Randall Hastings (1919)
The idea of atonement in Christian theology

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atonement of Christ - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

A word of caution.
The best resource is the Bible understood through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Exactly "HOW" the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses one from all unrighteousness is not explicitly explained in the Scriptures it is just upheld that it does. If you read through Church history you will find that many have offered their speculation as to "HOW" it works so I just urge caution so that people keep in mind to keep "speculation" and "surety" in their proper places.

The early Church did not teach a systematic theology, nor do I think they felt compelled to, they simply taught that Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh, a teacher of righteousness, that He offered Himself to God on behalf of sinners that their previous sins be forgiven. Jesus taught what one must do to be saved. The early church submitted themselves to His teachings thus they departed from iniquity and yielded to holiness therefore walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. They upheld the simplicity that is in Christ and the doctrine that is according to godliness.

 

[cfultz3]

To all,

What is the punishment of sin?

Is it not Death? Not only physical but spiritual death. A separation from God. And it was my Lord who said, ' My God!!!! My God!!!!! Why have you forsaken me?"

His death was my punishment He took upon Himself so that I did not have to know that great sorrow of saying, 'My God!!!! My God!!!! Why have you forsaken me?'

If He were to come now, I would never know of the second death.

In this life or the life to come, I shall never know Hades as my abode.

He has given me life in exchange for 'the just sentencing of everlasting destruction from my Lord's presence' which all is worthy of.

So yes!!!!!! My Lord has died in my place and given me life as the just sentencing for those who believe in Him.

Amen

 

[unclefester]

I have heard of blasphemy before. but this is the worst type.

Particularly this ;
" because they believe in the myth of the magic cloak of Jesus and that God's wrath was satisfied and thus they remain uncondemnable."


If God's wrath towards our sin was NOT satisfied in Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, it is no wonder at all that they would look to their own vain efforts thru works.

 

[BananaPie]

At least the Reformed heretics are consistent with their teaching of a Limited Atonement...

You need to carefully examine what you believe and where it actually comes from.

"The Reformers have been misquoted since Julius Cesar's time just goes to show Wikipedia is not a reliable source of scholarly documentation." William Shakespeare

BTW, I was raised Reformed Baptist, and I promise you I'm not a heretic unless you're a Catholic. :chuckles:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Particularly this ;
" because they believe in the myth of the magic cloak of Jesus and that God's wrath was satisfied and thus they remain uncondemnable."


If God's wrath towards our sin was NOT satisfied in Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, it is no wonder at all that they would look to their own vain efforts thru works.

Amen! I look at it like this. The fact Christ was resurrected PROVES> Gods wrath was satisfied. Which is Why is is said Jesus is our propitiation. The word propitiate means to "satisfy God's wrath"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To all,

What is the punishment of sin?

Is it not Death? Not only physical but spiritual death. A separation from God. And it was my Lord who said, ' My God!!!! My God!!!!! Why have you forsaken me?"

His death was my punishment He took upon Himself so that I did not have to know that great sorrow of saying, 'My God!!!! My God!!!! Why have you forsaken me?'

If He were to come now, I would never know of the second death.

In this life or the life to come, I shall never know Hades as my abode.

He has given me life in exchange for 'the just sentencing of everlasting destruction from my Lord's presence' which all is worthy of.

So yes!!!!!! My Lord has died in my place and given me life as the just sentencing for those who believe in Him.

Amen

Amen. Cursed is he who hangs on a tree. As scripture says.

Punishment for sin is not an eternity in hell. Punishment for sin is death. we are ALL DEAD TO GOD. Spiritual separation from him. We are already suffering our punishment. Hell is the place for those who do not come to life, and remain dead in their sin past this lifetime. This is why could suffer three hours of torment (and believe me, after spending eternity past with the father, three hours was an eternity) and it be sufficient for all of us. Not to mention that fact, HE IS AND WAS GOD.

 

[Grandpa]

Before people write off those who reject the Penal Substitution of the Atonement as heresy I recommend you be slow to answer and do some study on the issue first.

Penal Substitution has only been around in its present format for approximately 400 years. Dig deep and study to show thyself approved.


A word of caution.
The best resource is the Bible understood through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Exactly "HOW" the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses one from all unrighteousness is not explicitly explained in the Scriptures it is just upheld that it does. If you read through Church history you will find that many have offered their speculation as to "HOW" it works so I just urge caution so that people keep in mind to keep "speculation" and "surety" in their proper places.

The early Church did not teach a systematic theology, nor do I think they felt compelled to, they simply taught that Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh, a teacher of righteousness, that He offered Himself to God on behalf of sinners that their previous sins be forgiven. Jesus taught what one must do to be saved. The early church submitted themselves to His teachings thus they departed from iniquity and yielded to holiness therefore walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. They upheld the simplicity that is in Christ and the doctrine that is according to godliness.

Isaiah 53 was written more than 400 yrs ago. How long has the book of Isaiah been in the bible?

Isaiah 53:3-6
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

God does all the work. People don't just decide to be holy and perfect before Him. Look at the pharisee and the publican when they were praying. The pharisee decided he was holy and perfect before God, based on his own works. It ended up not working out very well for him.

If God hasn't cleaned you, you're not clean.
If God hasn't freed you, you're not free.

Blood is required for the atonement of our souls. It must be perfect, innocent blood something we don't have of ourselves. We have to ask Jesus for it. We have to humble ourselves before Him and let Him know that we, like the publican, are unworthy before Him and ask for mercy and forgiveness.

You can't come to Him unless you think you are forgiven beforehand. It would be too risky to come before Him not knowing for sure... Don't you think??

 

[marianna]

Marianna,
Your mind is made up and I am not interested in wrestling with you. I saw that in how you responded to my initial response to you. You basically ignore the issues I raise and selectively pick segments with which to attack. Thus discussion with you consists of endlessly chasing tangents.

No, I just have a few questions. Most of them just required a yes or no answer. But I get you don't want to go there. What wrestling? If you have the truth it will stand. If you don't, Paul has addressed that matter.

In any case, It's your other gospel, other christ, and other foundation I want to look at.
You're teaching antichrist heresy, and I don't like it

Skinski7:

Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life - John 3:16

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. - Isaiah 53:12

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. - Romans 4:25

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5

Joh 3:16. Does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life - John 3:16

Does John 3:16 say God Himself gave Jesus? What does it mean He gave Him? For what?
Or was the Crucifixion a surprise to God?

Isa 53:12. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. - Isaiah 53:12

Is this passage about Jesus?
Did God give Jesus for something according to John 3:16?
Does this say Jesus poured out His life unto death?
Was this part of God's Plan? What purpose did it serve?
Why was Jesus "numbered with the transgressors"?
Who in Isaiah 53 "bore the sin of many"? Jesus?
Why would Jesus bear the sin of many?

How could God allow His beloved Son in John 3:16, Whom He GAVE, to:

- pour out His life unto death
- be numbered with the transgressors (counted with/as sinners) though He knew no sin?
- bear the sin of many

What does it mean that He bore the SIN?
Was that to pay satan? What happened there?

And in what way then did Him being GIVEN; pouring out His life unto death; bearing the sins of many; being numbered with the transgressors; allow for Him to make intercession for the transgressors? Why does He make intercession? How is that made possible?

2Cor 5:21. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

WHO made Jesus to be sin?
Was it Judas, Peter, Satan....or God?

WHO MADE JESUS TO BE SIN THOUGH HE KNEW NONE.?

Why would The Father lay on Jesus the sins of transgressors, when Jesus was without sin?
What happens to transgressors?
Isn't the wrath of God abiding on them?
If Jesus bore the sins of many, and God gave Him for that, what does the Father then do with all that SIN (Which His Son was bearing, though He Himself was without sin)?

So you REJECT like the worst of heretics, the very WORK on the Cross. You completely discount it, as an UNHOLY thing. That's too bad for you, since in so doing, the rest of His WORK will not be applied to you:

so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

Rom 4:25. This verse does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. - Romans 4:25

WHO GAVE Him in John 3:16?
Who delivered Him over to death because of our transgressions?

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. - Acts 2:23

what does because of our transgressions mean?
WHY DID JESUS SUFFER AND DIE UNDER THE PREDETERMINED PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD?
"He who was delivered over because of our transgressions"

WHY?

Rom 5:6-11. This passage does not say anything about Jesus being "punished" by God or anything about God "pouring out His wrath on Jesus."

Oh really?

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Romans 5


1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. - Romans 8

Who condemned SIN in the flesh? God?
Who made Jesus a SIN offering? God?
What does a SIN OFFERING mean? What is it, and what is it for?
TO MAKE ATONEMENT?

Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. - Numbers 28:22

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin - Romans 8:3

chattath: sin, sin offering
Transliteration: chattath
Short Definition: offering

Word Origin
from chata

Definition
sin, sin offering
NASB Translation
offering for the sin (1), punishment (3), purification from sin (2), sin (93), sin offering (117), sin offerings (2), sinful (1), sinned (1), sinner (1), sins (70).


kaphar: to cover over, pacify, make propitiation
Transliteration: kaphar
Short Definition: atonement

Word Origin
denominative verb from kopher

Definition
to cover over, pacify, make propitiation
NASB Translation
appease (1), appease* (1), atone (3), atoned (2), atonement is made (1), atonement shall be made (1), atonement was made (1), atoning (1), canceled (1), expiation can be made (1), forgave (1), forgive (4), forgiven (5), made atonement (3), make atonement (71), makes atonement (2), making atonement (1), pardon (1)

kopher: bribe
Original Word: כֹּ֫פֶר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kopher
Phonetic Spelling: (ko'-fer)
Short Definition: bribe

I. כֹּפֶר noun masculine the price of a life, ransom


and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2

hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

You cannot find Jesus teaching anything close to the teaching that He was going to absorb the wrath of God in the place of the sinner.

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29

saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." - Luke 22:42

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. - Isaiah 53:10

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. - Isaiah 53:4

SMITTEN OF WHO?
SATAN? OR GOD?

what does SMITTEN of God look like Mr. Skinski?

Why was the LORD pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief?

You don't LIKE THAT GOD, do you Mr. Skinski?
You hate Him.

Nor did Jesus teach anything close to a doctrine that His obedience track record was going to be credited to the believer. Jesus offered Himself on behalf of sinners and he bore the sins of the world but He most definitely was not PUNISHED by God for them. That is blasphemy and that has God punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.

(hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin.

In fact if Jesus was "punished" by God in "your place" then Jesus should still be in hell right now. The wages of sin was not being crucified on a cross and going down to Hades for 3 days, it is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. - Romans 4:25

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1:8

Goddbye Mr. Skinski7, heretic.

 

[cfultz3]

God loves a contrite heart which turns to Him in rependance. What wonders our God will perform on a soul who knows he was in error and decided to turn around and face Him as his Lord. Praise God He has given us a choice to make. Shall we choose life or death? Shall it be good or evil? As for me, I choose the God of all gods, the Lord of all lords and will set my eyes solely upon Him as my Master. Show my soul your ways and I will walk in them. My soul adores your Salvation, how greatly I adore Thee my Savior. In you, I will place my trust, my Hightower.

 

[marianna]

Marianna,

Please see post 162 as my response also. Thank you.

Specifically the first statement.

Marianna,
Your mind is made up and I am not interested in wrestling with you. I saw that in how you responded to my initial response to you. You basically ignore the issues I raise and selectively pick segments with which to attack. Thus discussion with you consists of endlessly chasing tangents.

This part?
Yes, I know you had your pride hurt over your teachings and your disciple.
I just wondered how far your wounded pride would take you (into sin) - even to the point of stamping an herectic's antichrist doctrine with a holy Amen.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if he denies the Gospel?
Really, cfultz3 it's clear what you're really about.

 

[cfultz3]

This part?
Yes, I know you had your pride hurt over your teachings and your disciple.
I just wondered how far your wounded pride would take you (into sin) - even to the point of stamping an herectic's antichrist doctrine with a holy Amen.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if he denies the Gospel?
Really, cfultz3 it's clear what you're really about.

My point concisely made.

 

[marianna]

My point concisely made.

Okay. At least you're honest

 

[Skinski7]

Lots of words said but not a single person can quote a single verse which states that God poured out His wrath on Jesus.

People tend to dance around the issues instead of directly addressing them.

If Jesus was literally PUNISHED by God and thus was the WRATH ABSORBING SUBSTITUTE for the sinner then it means that the atonement was either Limited in the sense that Jesus did not absorb the wrath for everyone OR universal salvation is true. Which do you all prefer?

Men ESTEEMED Jesus stricken by God from their point of view but nowhere does the Bible state that God punished Jesus. Sinful men punished Jesus for a crime He did not commit.

Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him yet nowhere does the Bible state that God PUNISHED Jesus as a PENAL SUBSTITUTE. You all read that doctrine INTO the Scripture because you have most likely never questioned it due to having heard the lie over and over again.

The early Church did not teach Penal Substitution nor did the Catholics. It was invented by lawyers who added a judicial element to the Satisfaction View of Anselm. While Anselm taught that "justice was satisfied" the Reformers added that "wrath was satisfied."

Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.

Penal Substitution is pure fallacy. It is an evil doctrine which is at complete odds with the Scriptures.

Even people like Adam Clarke could see right through it, here is what he wrote...

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Verse 21. "For he hath made him to be sin for us" - ton mh gnonta amartian, uper hmwn amartian epoihsen? He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word amartia occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.
In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the hafj chattaah and tafj chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by amartia in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit, ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them,) in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul-his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.
But that it may be plainly seen that sin-offering, not sin, is the meaning of the word in this verse, I shall set down the places from the Septuagint where the word occurs; and where it answers to the Hebrew words already quoted; and where our translators have rendered correctly what they render here incorrectly. In EXODUS, Exod. xxix. 14, xx16: LEVITICUS, Lev. iv. 3, 8, 20, 21, 24, 25, 29, 32-34; Lev. v. 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12; Lev. vi. 17, 25, 30; Lev. vii. 7, 37; Lev. viii. 2, 14; Lev. ix. 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 15, 22; Lev. x. 16, 17, 19; Lev. xii. 6, 8; Leviticus xiv. 13, 19, 22, 31; Lev. xv. 15, 30; Lev. xvi. 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 15, 25, 27; Lev. xxiii. 19: NUMBERS, Num. vi. 11, 14, 16; Num. vii. 16, 22, 28, 34, 40, 46, 52, 58, 70, 76, 82, 87; Numbers viii. 8, 12; Num. xv. 24, 25, 27; Num. xviii. 9; Num. xxviii. 15, 22; Num. xxix. 5, 11, 16, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 38.
Besides the above places, it occurs in the same signification, and is properly translated in our version, in the following places:- 2 CHRONICLES, 2 Chron. xxix. 21, 23, 24: Ezra, Ezra vi. 17; Ezra viii. x25: NEHEMIAH, Neh. x. x23: Job, Job i. 5: EZEKIEL, Ezek. xliii. 19, 22, 25; Ezek. xliv. 27, 29; Ezekiel xlv. 17, 19, 22, 23, 25. In all, one hundred and eight places, which, in the course of my own reading in the Septuagint, I have marked.
"That we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - The righteousness of God signifies here the salvation of God, as comprehending justification through the blood of Christ, and sanctification through his Spirit or, as the mountains of God, the hail of God, the wind of God, mean exceeding high mountains, extraordinary hail, and most tempestuous wind; so, here, the righteousness of God may mean a thorough righteousness, complete justification, complete sanctification; such as none but God can give, such as the sinful nature and guilty conscience of man require, and such as is worthy of God to impart. And all this righteousness, justification, and holiness, we receive in, by, for, and through HIM, as the grand, sacrificial, procuring, and meritorious cause of these, and every other blessing. Some render the passage: We are justified through him; before God; or, We are justified, according to God's plan of justification, through him.
IN many respects, this is a most important and instructive chapter.
1. The terms house, building, tabernacle, and others connected with them, have already been explained from the Jewish writings. But it has been thought by some that the apostle mentions these as readily offering themselves to him from his own avocation, that of a tentmaker; and it is supposed that he borrows these terms from his own trade in order to illustrate his doctrine; This supposition would be natural enough if we had not full evidence that these terms were used in the Jewish theology precisely in the sense in which the apostle uses them here. Therefore, it is more likely that he borrowed them from that theology, than from his own trade.
2. In the terms tabernacle, building of God, &c., he may refer also to the tabernacle in the wilderness, which was a building of God, and a house of God, and as God dwelt in that building, so he will dwell in the souls of those who believe in, love, and obey him. And this will be his transitory temple till mortality is swallowed up of life, and we have a glorified body and soul to be his eternal residence.
3. The doctrines of the resurrection of the same body; the witness of the Spirit; the immateriality of the soul; the fall and miserable condition of all mankind; the death of Jesus, as an atonement for the sins of the whole world; the necessity of obedience to the Divine will, and of the total change of the human heart, are all introduced here: and although only a few words are spoken on each, yet these are so plain and so forcible as to set those important doctrines in the most clear and striking point of view.
4. The chapter concludes with such a view of the mercy and goodness of God in the ministry of reconciliation, as is no where else to be found. He has here set forth the Divine mercy in all its heightenings; and who can take this view of it without having his heart melted down with love and gratitude to God, who has called him to such a state of salvation.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]5. It is exceedingly remarkable that, through the whole of this chapter, the apostle speaks of himself in the first person plural; and though he may intend other apostles, and the Christians in general, yet it is very evident that he uses this form when only himself can be meant, as in verses 12 and 13, as well as in several places of the following chapter. This may be esteemed rather more curious than important. [/FONT]

Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary - 2 Corinthians 5

Now while Adam Clarke views the second use of the word in 2Cor 5:21 as being more accurately rendered "sin offering." I can still reasonably see it being rendered as "sin" in the sense that Jesus was made a curse for us in in the sense that the sins of men are laid on Jesus (sin bearer) but most definitely not in the sense where Jesus became a sinner and was then punished by God. No way for that would be contradicting that He was without spot. 2Cor 5:21 is a semantic issue in translation and understanding.

Just as Rom 8:3 says this...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The above verse does not literally mean that flesh is literally sinful (ie. sin being some sort of substance trapped in the flesh ala gnostic Original Sin), it simply means that Jesus was incarnated in the flesh (in which men sin) and that being in the same state he overcame sin and thus condemned it being a fellow man. After-all He was out example.

Anyway I am digressing here just to give a little more information for those interested.

My original statements stand true.

1. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner.
2. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution.
2. If Jesus was punished by God in the place of the sinner and thus absorbed the wrath of God then either He did not do this for everyone OR universal salvation is true.
3. If Penal Substitution is true then sin and virtue are transferable properties rather than being moral choices.
4. If Penal Substitution is true then God does not forgive sins but rather appropriates them to the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.
5. Penal Substitution is clearly an invention of the Reformers as they added a judicial element to the Satisfaction view which was developed by Anselm.
6. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.




Here are two more relevant passages for people to seriously consider.

Mar 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

 

[cfultz3]

Okay. At least you're honest

Yes I am honest in saying you are bendictive and a fault finder of those who do not comply with your doctrine. Thanks for accepting my honesty.

 

[marianna]

Particularly this ;
" because they believe in the myth of the magic cloak of Jesus and that God's wrath was satisfied and thus they remain uncondemnable."


If God's wrath towards our sin was NOT satisfied in Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, it is no wonder at all that they would look to their own vain efforts thru works.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

Have to believe on the right Son. The right Gospel.

But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the minds of the Gentiles and embittered them against the brethren. - Acts 14:2

Mr. Skinski's teacher teaches Gnostic Judaism.
They deplore the idea that man is guilty (and that though Jesus wasn't, God would make HIM the Passover Lamb to be sacrificed).

They can not stand the idea that God would deliver up His Own Son.

When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. - Acts 13:45