Fallacies of the Present Day Church

[feedm3]

you still did not get the point I was making. I don't know why I bother. but I was not expecting you to get it, just hoping others would.

The first rude words appear, like I said above, and I am not sure why your're trying so hard to refute what I said, when it was just an opinion I had about the way people argue!

This is exactly what I am talking about. Not "heated discussions" but ugly insulting ones, in which nothing Paul said, nor Jesus can be an example of, they spoke the truth with love.

I can say "my user name is feedm3" and you would try to refute that! Im not going to pointlesly argue with you anymore.

 

[Abiding]

If romans 7:14-25 is the life of the believer which by verb tenses claim it to be.
Then the believer can realize their struggle is real and normal and will soon learn
to renew their mind and resist the flesh, world, and devil, and call out to the Lord
for strength by grace.

If you tell them it is Pauls presaved condition, they will have doubts and fear and
will fail to believe they are saved. This one little mistake...to teach Romans7 as all
past tense is a very great mistake, that will cripple people. Do you see that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The first rude words appear, like I said above, and I am not sure why your're trying so hard to refute what I said, when it was just an opinion I had about the way people argue!

This is exactly what I am talking about. Not "heated discussions" but ugly insulting ones, in which nothing Paul said, nor Jesus can be an example of, they spoke the truth with love.

I can say "my user name is feedm3" and you would try to refute that! Im not going to pointlesly argue with you anymore.

and this is why we can't discuss anything, everything i say you take as a personal insult. I made a pointed view as to what you said which was not directed at any one point you made.

In fact the whole focal point of my original response was about why there are heated responses and why it can get heated and ugly. the reason is, is because WE DO BOTH TEACH DIFFERENT GOSPELS. and i showed why we do. i never said you claimed it is ok for us to. this is your opinion. because you never listen to anything I say, you always look for ways you can belittle me, and show how I have misinterpreted what you said, or whatever excuse you wish to make.

The fact is, You do not practice what you teach. I made a comment in a non judgmental, non argumentative way, and all you have done since is go off the deep end because you misinterpreted what I said, and took it as an insult. like you do EVERYTHING I SAY! Which only proves one thing. It proves you have a closed mind. Because if you did not, you would have at least agreed with what I said in context. and not try to stick up for yourself afraid I was trying to slam you when I was doing no such thing!


And now I will get argumentative with you. To show you that I was not trying to expose you, but show why we will argue. even though YOU DID SAY IT DOES NOT MATTER. (you should have left well enough alone, but no you can;t do that)

You said:

In the 10,000,000+ words I have typed with different people concerning this subject, I realized the main area of disagreement is if the person who is to face God's wrath was ever saved, or if he fell from being saved, which to me is petty when you really think about it.

If both are saying living in sin will not get us to heaven, whether saved and fell, or never have been saved, then I am not sure what it matters if one believes either way, the point is we cannot live in sin.

Petty? Are you not saying the arguments are invalid as long as we both believe they are not saved?

Your not sure it matters if one believes either way? Would this NOT BE SAYING that both gospels are ok, and that we will both get to heaven either way?

Now you can see HOW I WOULD HAVE RESPONDED IF I WOULD HAVE BEEN TRYING TO EXPOSE YOU IN WHAT YOU SAID. YET I DID NOT. BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT WHY I RESPONDED IN THE FIRST PLACE. EVEN THOUGH I JUST EXPOSED YOU AS SAYING THE VERY THING YOU CLAIMED IN YOUR LAST TWO RESPONSES YOU NEVER SAID. SO GET OVER YOURSELF AND START DOING WHAT YOU FIRST CLAIMED WE ALL SHOULD DO!

 

[feedm3]

and this is why we can't discuss anything, everything i say you take as a personal insult. I made a pointed view as to what you said which was not directed at any one point you made.

In fact the whole focal point of my original response was about why there are heated responses and why it can get heated and ugly. the reason is, is because WE DO BOTH TEACH DIFFERENT GOSPELS. and i showed why we do. i never said you claimed it is ok for us to. this is your opinion. because you never listen to anything I say, you always look for ways you can belittle me, and show how I have misinterpreted what you said, or whatever excuse you wish to make.

The fact is, You do not practice what you teach. I made a comment in a non judgmental, non argumentative way, and all you have done since is go off the deep end because you misinterpreted what I said, and took it as an insult. like you do EVERYTHING I SAY! Which only proves one thing. It proves you have a closed mind. Because if you did not, you would have at least agreed with what I said in context. and not try to stick up for yourself afraid I was trying to slam you when I was doing no such thing!

This is getting comical, I am starting to think you have an obsession or something.

I dont want to argue anything with you - at all. Take it how you want if you feel like that means I cant answer you or whatever, I fine with whatever you say. Take care.

 

[Skinski7]

If romans 7:14-25 is the life of the believer which by verb tenses claim it to be.
Then the believer can realize their struggle is real and normal and will soon learn
to renew their mind and resist the flesh, world, and devil, and call out to the Lord
for strength by grace.

If you tell them it is Pauls presaved condition, they will have doubts and fear and
will fail to believe they are saved. This one little mistake...to teach Romans7 as all
past tense is a very great mistake, that will cripple people. Do you see that?

Therefore you are teaching that a saved born again believer is...

1. Carnal and sold under sin (Rom 7:14)
2. Is captive to the law of sin.
3. Is wretched and needs deliverance.

Jesus taught this...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Paul clearly admits that the Romans Wretch is clearly a servant of sin. Being a servant of sin is the complete opposite of being set free from sin.

Paul stated in Romans 6:16 this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Which one is the Romans wretch a servant of? Righteousness or Sin? Clearly it is sin.

Paul then said this...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Which is in the context of the body of sin being destroyed.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Notice the Romans Wretch need to be delivered from the "body of death" (Rom 7:24) because he is still captive to the "law of sin" (Rom 7:23).

You are actually believing that one is actually saved in their sin. You are actually believing that Israel could have remained in Egypt as slaves and yet have been set free at the same time. These things are so simple but I fear that the strongholds of the mind are almost impassable for most of those under the delusion. One must truly have a LOVE for the truth and be very DILIGENT in seeking it out.

How can the Romans Wretch establish the law by faith if he is captive to the law of sin and still sins every day? It is simply impossible.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How can the law be fulfilled by the Romans Wretch who is carnal and sold under sin and is still in bondage to the law of sin? This wretch is most certainly not WALKING (deeds) after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You will not find a single statement by anyone in the primitive church who taught that the Romans Wretch was the Christian in the present tense. They understood what being set free from the bondage of sin was and what it meant to clean escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Not today though for Satan is standing in the pulpit telling all his followers that they CAN SIN and surely not die.

The truth of the matter is that Paul is speaking in the "Historical Present" which was a common grammatical technique in the Greek to give a vivid description of something.

In reading the early church I cannot find a single instance where Romans 7 is taught as the present Christian experience. Not until Augustine did so in the 4th century.

Irenaeus in "Against Heresies" Book III commented on this passage...

3. On this account, therefore, the Lord Himself,3694 who is Emmanuel from the Virgin,3695 is the sign of our salvation, since it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: “For I know that there dwelleth in my flesh no good thing,”3696 showing that the “good thing” of our salvation is not from us, but from God. And again: “Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”3697 Then he introduces the Deliverer, [saying,] “The grace of Jesus Christ our Lord.” And Isaiah declares this also, [when he says:] “Be ye strengthened, ye hands that hang down, and ye feeble knees; be ye encouraged, ye feeble-minded; be comforted, fear not: behold, our God has given judgment with retribution, and shall recompense: He will come Himself, and will save us.”3698 Here we see, that not by ourselves, but by the help of God, we must be saved.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Notice how he speaks of human infirmity and that it is this we are delivered from by the grace of God. Clearly Romans 7 is viewed here as the pre-conversion experience.

Irenaeus even referred to the Romans Wretch as applying to the disobedient son.

8. Then, in the case of the publican, who excelled the Pharisee in prayer, [we find] that it was not because he worshipped another Father that he received testimony from the Lord that he was justified rather [than the other]; but because with great humility, apart from all boasting and pride, he made confession to the same God.4388 The parable of the two sons also: those who are sent into the vineyard, of whom one indeed opposed his father, but afterwards repented, when repentance profited him nothing; the other, however, promised to go, at once assuring his father, but he did not go (for “every man is a liar;”4389 “to will is present with him, but he finds not means to perform”4390),—[this parable, I say], points out one and the same Father. Then, again, this truth was clearly shown forth by the parable of the fig-tree, of which the Lord says, “Behold, now these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig-tree, but I find none”4391 (pointing onwards, by the prophets, to His advent, by whom He came from time to time, seeking the fruit of righteousness from them, which he did not find), and also by the circumstance that, for the reason already mentioned, the fig-tree should be hewn down. And, without using a parable, the Lord said to Jerusalem, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest those that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house shall be left unto you desolate.”4392 For that which had been said in the parable, “Behold, for three years I come seeking fruit,” and in clear terms, again, [where He says], “How often would I have gathered thy children together,” shall be [found] a falsehood, if we do not understand His advent, which is [announced] by the prophets—if, in fact, He came to them but once, and then for the first time. But since He who chose the patriarchs and those [who lived under the first covenant], is the same Word of God who did both visit them through the prophetic Spirit, and us also who have been called together from all quarters by His advent; in addition to what has been already said, He truly declared, “Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall go into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”4393 If, then, those who do believe in Him through the preaching of His apostles throughout the east and west shall recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, partaking with them of the [heavenly] banquet, one and the same God is set forth as He who did indeed choose the patriarchs, visited also the people, and called the Gentiles.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 36
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Irenaus was a student of Polycarp who was in turn a student of John.

Here is what Tertullian stated,

Chapter 46. It is the Works of the Flesh, Not the Substance of the Flesh, Which St. Paul Always Condemns.

You may notice that the apostle everywhere condemns the works of the flesh in such a way as to appear to condemn the flesh; but no one can suppose him to have any such view as this, since he goes on to suggest another sense, even though somewhat resembling it. For when he actually declares that they who are in the flesh cannot please God, he immediately recalls the statement from an heretical sense to a sound one, by adding, But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Romans 8:8-9 Now, by denying them to be in the flesh who yet obviously were in the flesh, he showed that they were not living amidst the works of the flesh, and therefore that they who could not please God were not those who were in the flesh, but only those who were living after the flesh; whereas they pleased God, who, although existing in the flesh, were yet walking after the Spirit. And, again, he says that the body is dead; but it is because of sin, even as the Spirit is life because of righteousness. When, however, he thus sets life in opposition to the death which is constituted in the flesh, he unquestionably promises the life of righteousness to the same state for which he determined the death of sin. But unmeaning is this opposition which he makes between the life and the death, if the life is not there where that very thing is to which he opposes it— even the death which is to be extirpated of course from the body. Now, if life thus extirpates death from the body, it can accomplish this only by penetrating there where that is which it is excluding. But why am I resorting to knotty arguments, when the apostle treats the subject with perfect plainness? For if, says he, the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Jesus from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, because of His Spirit that dwells in you; Romans 8:11 so that even if a person were to assume that the soul is the mortal body, he would (since he cannot possibly deny that the flesh is this also) be constrained to acknowledge a restoration even of the flesh, in consequence of its participation in the selfsame state. From the following words, moreover, you may learn that it is the works of the flesh which are condemned, and not the flesh itself: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if you live after the flesh you shall die; but if you, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. Now (that I may answer each point separately), since salvation is promised to those who are living in the flesh, but walking after the Spirit, it is no longer the flesh which is an adversary to salvation, but the working of the flesh. When, however, this operativeness of the flesh is done away with, which is the cause of death, the flesh is shown to be safe, since it is freed from the cause of death. For the law, says he, of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, — that, surely, which he previously mentioned as dwelling in our members. Our members, therefore, will no longer be subject to the law of death, because they cease to serve that of sin, from both which they have been set free. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and through sin condemned sin in the flesh, Romans 8:3 — not the flesh in sin, for the house is not to be condemned with its inhabitant. He said, indeed, that sin dwells in our body. Romans 7:20 But the condemnation of sin is the acquittal of the flesh, just as its non-condemnation subjugates it to the law of sin and death. In like manner, he called the carnal mind first death, Romans 8:6 and afterwards enmity against God; but he never predicated this of the flesh itself. But to what then, you will say, must the carnal mind be ascribed, if it be not to the carnal substance itself? I will allow your objection, if you will prove to me that the flesh has any discernment of its own. If, however, it has no conception of anything without the soul, you must understand that the carnal mind must be referred to the soul, although ascribed sometimes to the flesh, on the ground that it is ministered to for the flesh and through the flesh. And therefore (the apostle) says that sin dwells in the flesh, because the soul by which sin is provoked has its temporary lodging in the flesh, which is doomed indeed to death, not however on its own account, but on account of sin. For he says in another passage also: How is it that you conduct yourselves as if you were even now living in the world? Colossians 2:20 where he is not writing to dead persons, but to those who ought to have ceased to live after the ways of the world.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Tertullian)

Tertullian clearly understood the Romans 7 wretch to be a man who is carnal and sold under sin who needed to be delivered from the law of sin and death.

The gospel message being preached today bears no resemblance to the early church. It is a total farce and millions and millions of people think they are saved and they are going to be rejected at the judgment by Jesus Christ because they are still workers of iniquity.

I can lead a horse to water and present the truth but I cannot make anyone drink.

Just like "GraceThroughFaith" stated, we sow seed and others water, but it is God that gives the increase.

There are two roads.

1. Sin Unto Death.

2. Obedience Unto Righteousness.

Those who are saved HAVE obeyed from the heart (Rom 6:17) the doctrine of Christ which is the doctrine according to godliness. They have forsaken all known sin in a broken repentance and have been raised up by the power of God to newness of life having been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ that they may serve God acceptably with a clear conscience.

Obedience leads to righteousness which leads to holiness the end of which is eternal life. Eternal life is to those who patiently continue in doing good, seeking glory, honour and immortality. The road is a very narrow road which one must strive to enter in at the strait gate and they must remain steadfast in the faith until the end.

That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[feedm3]

If romans 7:14-25 is the life of the believer which by verb tenses claim it to be.
Then the believer can realize their struggle is real and normal and will soon learn
to renew their mind and resist the flesh, world, and devil, and call out to the Lord
for strength by grace.

If you tell them it is Pauls presaved condition, they will have doubts and fear and
will fail to believe they are saved. This one little mistake...to teach Romans7 as all
past tense is a very great mistake, that will cripple people. Do you see that?

I had to read a few back to get what you were saying, I guess you are referring to what Tommy wrote. I read it, I have to say I think he made a very good point in what he said in the context of Rom 7.

Paul did say it in the pastense. That does have implications. Yet I know what you mean, should not make people feel like they cannot be a Christian, but at the same time, just as God told Eze, he must preach exactly what God says.

Hopefully that message would allow one to examine him/herself, and if they are found in the conditions, it would produce in them Godly sorrow that leads to repentance that leads to Salvation, as Paul told the Corinthians he was Glad his letter produced this in them, because it caused them to repent. Had Paul not said these things to them, he would have left them crippled, but instead told them what they needed to hear - the Truth.
But that part is up to the individual. Cannot force Godly sorrow upon anyone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Therefore you are teaching that a saved born again believer is...

1. Carnal and sold under sin (Rom 7:14)
2. Is captive to the law of sin.
3. Is wretched and needs deliverance.

Jesus taught this...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Paul clearly admits that the Romans Wretch is clearly a servant of sin. Being a servant of sin is the complete opposite of being set free from sin.

Paul stated in Romans 6:16 this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Which one is the Romans wretch a servant of? Righteousness or Sin? Clearly it is sin.

Paul then said this...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Which is in the context of the body of sin being destroyed.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Notice the Romans Wretch need to be delivered from the "body of death" (Rom 7:24) because he is still captive to the "law of sin" (Rom 7:23).

You are actually believing that one is actually saved in their sin. You are actually believing that Israel could have remained in Egypt as slaves and yet have been set free at the same time. These things are so simple but I fear that the strongholds of the mind are almost impassable for most of those under the delusion. One must truly have a LOVE for the truth and be very DILIGENT in seeking it out.

How can the Romans Wretch establish the law by faith if he is captive to the law of sin and still sins every day? It is simply impossible.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How can the law be fulfilled by the Romans Wretch who is carnal and sold under sin and is still in bondage to the law of sin? This wretch is most certainly not WALKING (deeds) after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You will not find a single statement by anyone in the primitive church who taught that the Romans Wretch was the Christian in the present tense. They understood what being set free from the bondage of sin was and what it meant to clean escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Not today though for Satan is standing in the pulpit telling all his followers that they CAN SIN and surely not die.

The truth of the matter is that Paul is speaking in the "Historical Present" which was a common grammatical technique in the Greek to give a vivid description of something.

In reading the early church I cannot find a single instance where Romans 7 is taught as the present Christian experience. Not until Augustine did so in the 4th century.

Irenaeus in "Against Heresies" Book III commented on this passage...

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Notice how he speaks of human infirmity and that it is this we are delivered from by the grace of God. Clearly Romans 7 is viewed here as the pre-conversion experience.

Irenaeus even referred to the Romans Wretch as applying to the disobedient son.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 36
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Irenaus was a student of Polycarp who was in turn a student of John.

Here is what Tertullian stated,

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Tertullian)

Tertullian clearly understood the Romans 7 wretch to be a man who is carnal and sold under sin who needed to be delivered from the law of sin and death.

The gospel message being preached today bears no resemblance to the early church. It is a total farce and millions and millions of people think they are saved and they are going to be rejected at the judgment by Jesus Christ because they are still workers of iniquity.

I can lead a horse to water and present the truth but I cannot make anyone drink.

Just like "GraceThroughFaith" stated, we sow seed and others water, but it is God that gives the increase.

There are two roads.

1. Sin Unto Death.

2. Obedience Unto Righteousness.

Those who are saved HAVE obeyed from the heart (Rom 6:17) the doctrine of Christ which is the doctrine according to godliness. They have forsaken all known sin in a broken repentance and have been raised up by the power of God to newness of life having been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ that they may serve God acceptably with a clear conscience.

Obedience leads to righteousness which leads to holiness the end of which is eternal life. Eternal life is to those who patiently continue in doing good, seeking glory, honour and immortality. The road is a very narrow road which one must strive to enter in at the strait gate and they must remain steadfast in the faith until the end.

That is what the Bible teaches.

No, Actually paul said it. and why do you go off and past 1000 word responses when you could have simply done it with a short response like I did earlier. Which by the way, you still have not responded to. Do you think it makes you appear more believable when you do things like this?

As I said earlier.

The man of romans 7 has been delivered from the law. which caused death.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The man of romans 7 was understood the law was good. But he was (present tense) carnal.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.

The man of romans 7 wanted to good. he agreed with the law (thus proof he had already repented. because until one repents, they DO NOT AGREE WITH THE LAW) But he struggled with it. he did what he hated (another proof he had already repented, because unless one repents, they do not hate sin, they love it!) And he understood it was not he (his will) which sinned, but the flesh which still resided in him

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

the man of romans 7 understood there was a new law. That he wants to do good (because he has repented) but he still has evil present in him. He delights in the law of God (further proof of true repentnance) but he sees another thing in his body, whihc wars against that which wants to do good. and brings him to captivity of the law. Thus he calls himself a wretched man, and asks who will deliver him from the body of sin. What was his answer to this question of who would deliver him? Jesus Christ. He knew the flesh would not be removed, and he would have to suffer through it until he died, and recieved his redeemed body free of sin. so he had a plan.

He will keep his mind focused on God (the spirit) but understand, as long as the flesh remains in him, he will never be perfect.


21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


As you rightly posted. the wage (result of payment) of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through the death which Christ died.


You want to make the wage of good deeds and the ability to stop sin eternal life. thus you teach works and not grace. For as Paul said, if it is of grace, it is no longer works, for grace would not longer be grace, and as he also said, If Abraham was found by doing good deeds, he owuld have something to boast, but not before God. for what does God say, Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted (credited to his account) to him as righteousness. (He was justifed freely by the grace of God)

 

[Abiding]

EG so true Paul said that another law in his members(his flesh) warring against his mind.
Which again in Galations tells us will never quit. That is what can lead us into sin.....this
is a very long lesson that in Chapter 12 he starts to give application how we are to serve
the law of God with the renewing of the mind.

Skinski7: i understand the "Historical Present" although im positioned that the context
is too wide and long for that view. Unless its to state this part is VERY important to notice...which it is.

I still am trying to figure your view. According to what i think it is im not sure the Holyspirit
needed to even write alot of the book of Romans. Or for that matter why we need to captivate
thoughts, renew our minds, pray, war against the flesh(which by the way is at emnity with our spirit,
and will NEVER stop, which rhymes with rom7) or so much of the what the bible teaches.

 

[marianna]

Therefore you are teaching that a saved born again believer is...

1. Carnal and sold under sin (Rom 7:14)
2. Is captive to the law of sin.
3. Is wretched and needs deliverance.

Mr. Skinski,
Honestly, your teacher ought to receive a visit from the Apostle Paul.
I would like to be there for that exchange.

So in spite of all Paul's body of teaching about how the unregenerate man knows nothing about God, hates God, is separated from God, you still claim the careful teaching in 6 & 7 are PAUL HIMSELF before he was saved?

My God, you are among the worst of all possible false teachers.

Ever so cleverly in the body of your post, which I deleted for that very reason, you neglect the very reason Romans 7 is included between 6 (the believer's relationship to SIN) and 8 (the new life in CHRIST, FREE) - the believer's ability (having LEARNED from 6 & 7) :

to LEARN HOW AND WHY TO RECKON himself dead to sin and alive to God.!!!


Where's the part about being CRUCIFIED with Christ? (PAST TENSE) and BURIED (past tense) with Him in Baptism and RAISED (past tense) with Him in Resurrection (seated with Him, IN HIM)

Where's the part about being taught WHAT HAPPENED when we were SAVED?
Have you no idea what the Book of Romans is about and what it is teaching?

7 is about the believer's relationship to THE LAW. 6 is explaining how when he (we) HEARD THE LAW (if you haven't heard the Law and been CUT by it, you're not saved!) we understood what sin was?

And the struggle the new believer has understanding how it can be that though he NOW KNOWS HE IS ALIVE, he STILL understand he is wrestling with SIN.

7 is telling us about him (HE IS TEACHING WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE REALIZE WHAT SIN IS AFTER REGENERATION) wrestling with sin because he has not yet learned to RECKON himself DEAD TO THE LAW!

6 is about SIN, 7 is about the LAW, and moving into the relation between the LAW AND CHRIST - 8.

recokoning (knowing, believing, grasping, reasoning) ourselves DEAD to sin because of Christ's condemnation of and payment for sin; and now YEILDING our members for service to our NEW MASTER, CHRIST, not SIN.

Can you actually read the book and not destroy what the Spirit intends it to DO???

The whole book is good for building up and not tearing down - for teaching about how we are saved and whaqt regeneration is, and looks like - what the Law does when we we married to it.

How the LAW is good but we are not, so it is not the Law which dies, but WE WHO DIE.

How do we die? When we believe and are buried and raised with CHRIST!

You do not teach saving FAITH in this.

You teach LAW with a shallow tip of the hat to Grace and the Blood and Power of God.
All you are doing is DOOMING the wretch (newly regenerate) who is struggling with THE LAW to hell! If they do not learn in faith and freedom and love and safety to RECKON AND YIELD by faith they will NEVER learn to put to death the sinful passions (and if they don't EXIST WHAT ARE THEY MENTIONED FOR?)

Where's the teaching from Romans about SOMEONE HAVING TO DIE in order for the WIFE to married to another?
Do you know HOW that was accomplished?

No you do not.

Why do you do it?
Why do you dare to attempt to unravel the fine and delicate, HOLY SPIRIT BREATHED Book of Romans which is probably the very best way the Believer learns what this really means :

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

You cut away the very link that the new believer needs to understand what has happened to him and what he is to do now! RECKON AND YIELD.

GOD HELP YOU. I have no idea how many tender reeds you have broken but you will answer for it.
LET PAUL TEACH!

 

[marianna]

Mr. Skinski:

when did you last sin?

EDIT:
reading your thread,

ANSWER:

TODAY.

 

[Abiding]

I think youd not need a bible. Maybe just a wallet size card
if the other gospel were true. And i think it would market well.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

It all comes down to the teachings and teachers you are following, I know many, will reject the truth when presented to them, and make many excuses why the saved in sin gospel is so popular.
Its taken me over a year now to unravel this mess, and coming out of the liberal worldly churches I attended was the best thing for my spiritual life, as I was told I could continue as a porn addict and still be saved, just join Promise Keepers, and a good focus group to help me cope with these sins.
I lived a double life believing I was a wretched sinner, as the Romans wretch, chief of sinners, that I was born with this sin nature, and Jesus was my substitute and obeyed for me.
No wonder I was such a mess, along with millions of others who are under the strong delusion,where are the few brave of heart crying out for real repentance and faith instead of defending sin at every turn,oh you say you are not defending sin, but in reality you are when you believe OS, substitution, osas, all reformed errors held in high regard today.
I appreciate and pray for the few here who defend the truth, and I pray some seeds will be planted by what we share and post.
I have been set free but it came with a high price, and anyone who tries to say do you sin? is being silly and not being honest.
Please all you saved in sin, original sin, sub, osas saved people learn what sins is, we never say we are perfect, but we obey perfectly from the heart, we fall short or miss the mark daily, BUT does that mean we fall short and miss the mark by watching a bit of porn? Going out to get drunk? Fornication? Lying, cheating and stealing? God forbid!!!!!!!
I say not!
Huge difference, one doesnt lead to death, the other does!
I know its difficult to see how these reformed teaching have lead to what we have today such as OSAS, original sin, penal transfer, and the sinners prayer, and really leave one in bondage to sin and false teachings.

Walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

​

​

​

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

There is a huge difference between walking after the spirit, and waking after the flesh. Most think they are in the spirit when they have never come to Christ and salvation on His terms!
Most also think that the NO condemnation part is a done deal, when they confess the sinners prayer, admit they are a poor sinner, and accept Jesus into their heart, when in reality nothing happened, they are still defiled and double minded, but their pastor tells them now you are free from any condemnation what so ever!
Even though they are still in their unconverted carnal state, sold under sin! This is what is being produced today by the multitudes thinking they are safe and saved, under NO condemnation, because Romans 8-1 says so, but they fail to see the to do part of this very critical verse from Romans!
Yes, there is NO condemnation for those who are IN Christ, who have crucified their flesh with Him, Galatians 2-20, through real repentance and faith, and are now walking in the newness of life, free from the bondages of sin, temptation and the devil, not by some magical substitution, but by the power, and blood of Christ, who came as a sin offering, to ransom sinful mankind from the corrupting influences of sin! Hebrews, 9-14. Plus forgive mankind for all their past sins. Romans 3-25.
If a real conversion happens as described in James 1-21-22, through real repentance and faith, both proven by a changed heart, made pure, sincere and full of love, walking in the spirit while keeping the deeds of the flesh dead, then there is now no condemnation, for those who are IN Christ, crucified to the flesh and its harmful desires, being sensitive to the spirit and its leading.
If you walk IN the spirit then you cannot be also walking in the flesh, its either one or the other, thus the condemnation comes to those who return to their vomit, re crucifying Christ again and again, for willful, presumptuous sins that should have been put to death at conversion.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.
IF you are walking the crucified life in all humility and power of the spirit within, then condemnation will be lifted off your soul, as you remain IN the spirit, producing the fruits of the spirit, and guarding your heart from the temptations that so easily ensnare those who have never done their first works in repentance, stepping in and out of the light, and remaining carnal and double minded!!
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity(an enemy) against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Those who have gone through a true conversion, and have come to God broken in repentance, cleansed and purged of all known vile sins against Him, are now not under the condemnation of God, because they have crucified their flesh as commanded, Galatians 2-20, walking IN the light of Christ, so all they do, will be with a sound mind and heart, the motives will be pure, with good intent, and all done in love and sincerity, not for selfish gain, fulfilling the lust of the eyes and the pride in self, but with a heart geared to obedience to the truth, a living active obedience which will be imputed to us by faith, which is also the same as obedience to the commands of God which are not burdensome!
So the purity of the heart is crucial in all aspects of a real conversion, because without this heart purity, made possible through our free will and ability to obey from the heart, forsake all know sin, as the whole city of Nineveh did, then coming broken before God in an acceptable state, it will be impossible to walk in the spirit, and receive NO condemnation from God, as Romans 8-1 states, but a life filled with sin repent, sin repent, sin repent, and I mean fornicate, repent, get drunk repent, lie, cheat steal repent, etc..
God made it clear, the pure in heart will see Him, and please Him, and I don’t mean a perfect heart as perfect as God’s, BUT a heart that has been purified completely, by laying aside all wickedness and filthiness, and now ready to receive His implanted word with all meekness and humility, and not all the many neglected scriptures you never hear in church, or they tell you they never apply to you, are now totally understood, and adhered to, because they keep you in His grace, as you obey them, by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, then living soberly, righteously and godly in this present age, where grace isn’t abused or taken in vain, and the great condemnation of God is lifted, as you walk in the spirit, and the new life In following Christ on the narrow road!
Tommy

 

[Abiding]

And this happens from the first day you repent?
What is the new testament for?
how many times can a person fail?
how does a person even know what sin is...save a short list
theyve maybe heard of or a conscience that may be unsure.

If im not saved "in sin" does that mean true believers have no sin?
with others i see valid points..but it just causes tons of questions
both from a biblical and experiencial point of view.

Did you get saved and were you good as milk after that?

 

[unclefester]

Tommy ;

"and Jesus was my substitute and obeyed for me."

It's a good thing to walk away from any that teach this .Christ did much more than this. He paid our penalty for our sins ... because we couldn't. That's what grace is ... and unmerited love

 

[gracethroughfaith]

If romans 7:14-25 is the life of the believer which by verb tenses claim it to be.
Then the believer can realize their struggle is real and normal and will soon learn
to renew their mind and resist the flesh, world, and devil, and call out to the Lord
for strength by grace.

If you tell them it is Pauls presaved condition, they will have doubts and fear and
will fail to believe they are saved. This one little mistake...to teach Romans7 as all
past tense is a very great mistake, that will cripple people. Do you see that?

In Romans 7, Paul teaches in past-tense show what he has escaped from. He did not go around preaching righteousness and teaching people to be holy, while he was still living an unrighteous life. That would make him a heretick. He would be no different than the scribes and pharisees.

Matthew 23:25-28 (KJV)
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Luke 11:39-40 (KJV)
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

Is this the way Paul was? Not at all. If he were still living the life he speeks of in Romans 7, he would in no wise be working the works of God.

When a Christian shares there testimony with an unbeliever hoping to reviel the love of God does said Christain testify how they are still living in the same sin they are trying to draw the unbeliever out of. NO WAY! If this is what the Christian is testifying why would the world care to convert. What would they be turning from. NOTHING! They are already living in sin why follow christianity if it is no different than there present way of life. There is no hope in sin!

Whe know that Paul was teaching in the past-tense because of his statement in Romans 8:1
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This was spoken in present-tense!

Luke 12:1 (KJV)
1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

No matter what religious church you attent when ever they preach on Romans, namely Romans 7, they always stop short of giving you Romans 8:1-2. ALWAYS! Because is causes the leaven of there hypocrisy to fall. It removes the leaven of there lie.

 

[RickShafer]

Skinski,
You said , "Any person who has any sort of willful sin in their life IS NOT saved."
Does this include eating pork?
Just for clarification purposes'
will eating ham or bacon send a soul to hell?

 

[gracethroughfaith]

Skinski,
You said , "Any person who has any sort of willful sin in their life IS NOT saved."
Does this include eating pork?
Just for clarification purposes'
will eating ham or bacon send a soul to hell?

Rick; why are you going about seeking to do what the Pharisees tried to do with Jesus?

Luke 11:53-54 (KJV)
53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

 

[marianna]

Its taken me over a year now to unravel this mess, and coming out of the liberal worldly churches I attended was the best thing for my spiritual life, as I was told I could continue as a porn addict and still be saved, just join Promise Keepers, and a good focus group to help me cope with these sins.

liberal worldly churches
I was told
join Promise Keepers
focus group


So, for a year the LORD has shown you Grace and He reached down to strengthen you. Praise Him.
Do you suppose He had his eye on you during your "mess"?

Tommy4Christ,
You and you alone chose the liberal worldy church(es) - plural (clearly you deliberately chose more than one.
You, and you alone went along with what you "were told"
You chose a NONChristian Antinomian (homosexual) cult called Promise Keepers.

It's good that you name them.
But why are you now choosing to become an extremist and rail against the Church?
Apparently you haven't yet met your true brothers.
As far as I can see, you're still on the outside yelling in.

Do you minister to other victims of the sex cult PK?
Or is it easier to just rant at other Christians thinking they have not either overcome as you have?


Swindoll has also authored 59 books, 5 mini-books, and 38 booklets; he has received eleven Gold Medallion Awards to date. He is also a regular featured speaker for the ecumenical, charismatic, psychologized men's movement known as Promise Keepers. [Promise Keepers is the gigantic new (1991) "men's movement" among professing evangelical Christians. Its roots are Catholic and charismatic to the core. PK's contradictory stand on homosexuality; its promotion of secular psychology; its unscriptural feminizing of men; its depiction of Jesus as a "***** messiah" tempted to perform ***** acts; and its ecumenical and unbiblical teachings should dissuade any true Christian from participating. Promise Keepers is proving to be one of the most ungodly and misleading movements in the annals of Christian history. (At the 7/94 Boulder, Colorado National Promise Keepers Conference, to the band's playing of "Born to Be Wild," Swindoll roared onto the stage astride a motorcycle, and then delivered a sermon on avoiding temptation. Could this be what Swindoll means by "spicing up the image of the seminary"?) Swindoll and his two sons were also on the cover of the Jan/Feb 1996, New Man, the official PK magazine published by Charisma.]

(blasphemy removed, and no link provided)


The whole purpose of those cults is to poison the well, exactly as you experienced.

Now you have overcome some besetting sins.
And yes, the price is very high. Mortification is difficult.

However, the cult has still had a victory in you, since in the process of being recovered from their clutches, you are teaching against the True Gospel. This is what they are there for.

I hope you are very careful to not sweep aside the very Grace which saved you, and do so amazingly even after Paul was inspired to predict and refute the very charge you make - against the WRONG PEOPLE!

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. - Romans 6

 

[gracethroughfaith]

Skinski,
You said , "Any person who has any sort of willful sin in their life IS NOT saved."
Does this include eating pork?
Just for clarification purposes'
will eating ham or bacon send a soul to hell?

Is this the way of a Christian? Seeking to find fault in another? NO! As a Christian we seek to help a brother. Not seek to do him harm.

Does a Christian look at a person of the world and say look how rotten they are?They need to be like me! NO! We aproach them in the love of Jesus Christ, hoping to win them to Christ. Not beat them down with a critical spirit.

Yes worldly people do have many faults and are living in sin. So, we go to them and preach the love of God, and help them to understand where there sin is taking them, and how to be freed from there wickedness.

 

[marianna]

Is this the way of a Christian? Seeking to find fault in another? NO! As a Christian we seek to help a brother. Not seek to do him harm.

Does a Christian look at a person of the world and say look how rotten they are?They need to be like me! NO! We aproach them in the love of Jesus Christ, hoping to win them to Christ. Not beat them down with a critical spirit.

Yes worldly people do have many faults and are living in sin. So, we go to them and preach the love of God, and help them to understand where there sin is taking them, and how to be freed from there wickedness.

If you choose to lift up someone who denies these things, do so at your peril.

Fallacy 2: Jesus is your substitution, suffering the wrath and penalty of God in your place, by becoming sin for you.

Fallacy 3: God Transferred Jesus Righteousness and Obedience to you when you believed by faith.