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Lots of words said but not a single person can quote a single verse which states that God poured out His wrath on Jesus.
People tend to dance around the issues instead of directly addressing them.
If Jesus was literally PUNISHED by God and thus was the WRATH ABSORBING SUBSTITUTE for the sinner then it means that the atonement was either Limited in the sense that Jesus did not absorb the wrath for everyone OR universal salvation is true. Which do you all prefer?
Men ESTEEMED Jesus stricken by God from their point of view but nowhere does the Bible state that God punished Jesus. Sinful men punished Jesus for a crime He did not commit.
Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him yet nowhere does the Bible state that God PUNISHED Jesus as a PENAL SUBSTITUTE. You all read that doctrine INTO the Scripture because you have most likely never questioned it due to having heard the lie over and over again.
The early Church did not teach Penal Substitution nor did the Catholics. It was invented by lawyers who added a judicial element to the Satisfaction View of Anselm. While Anselm taught that "justice was satisfied" the Reformers added that "wrath was satisfied."
Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.
Penal Substitution is pure fallacy. It is an evil doctrine which is at complete odds with the Scriptures.
Even people like Adam Clarke could see right through it, here is what he wrote...
Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary - 2 Corinthians 5
Now while Adam Clarke views the second use of the word in 2Cor 5:21 as being more accurately rendered "sin offering." I can still reasonably see it being rendered as "sin" in the sense that Jesus was made a curse for us in in the sense that the sins of men are laid on Jesus (sin bearer) but most definitely not in the sense where Jesus became a sinner and was then punished by God. No way for that would be contradicting that He was without spot. 2Cor 5:21 is a semantic issue in translation and understanding.
Just as Rom 8:3 says this...
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The above verse does not literally mean that flesh is literally sinful (ie. sin being some sort of substance trapped in the flesh ala gnostic Original Sin), it simply means that Jesus was incarnated in the flesh (in which men sin) and that being in the same state he overcame sin and thus condemned it being a fellow man. After-all He was out example.
Anyway I am digressing here just to give a little more information for those interested.
My original statements stand true.
1. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner.
2. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution.
2. If Jesus was punished by God in the place of the sinner and thus absorbed the wrath of God then either He did not do this for everyone OR universal salvation is true.
3. If Penal Substitution is true then sin and virtue are transferable properties rather than being moral choices.
4. If Penal Substitution is true then God does not forgive sins but rather appropriates them to the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.
5. Penal Substitution is clearly an invention of the Reformers as they added a judicial element to the Satisfaction view which was developed by Anselm.
6. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.
Here are two more relevant passages for people to seriously consider.
Mar 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
People tend to dance around the issues instead of directly addressing them.
If Jesus was literally PUNISHED by God and thus was the WRATH ABSORBING SUBSTITUTE for the sinner then it means that the atonement was either Limited in the sense that Jesus did not absorb the wrath for everyone OR universal salvation is true. Which do you all prefer?
Men ESTEEMED Jesus stricken by God from their point of view but nowhere does the Bible state that God punished Jesus. Sinful men punished Jesus for a crime He did not commit.
Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him yet nowhere does the Bible state that God PUNISHED Jesus as a PENAL SUBSTITUTE. You all read that doctrine INTO the Scripture because you have most likely never questioned it due to having heard the lie over and over again.
The early Church did not teach Penal Substitution nor did the Catholics. It was invented by lawyers who added a judicial element to the Satisfaction View of Anselm. While Anselm taught that "justice was satisfied" the Reformers added that "wrath was satisfied."
Under Penal Substitution God DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN. God merely appropriates the sin to someone else and punishes them instead.
Penal Substitution is pure fallacy. It is an evil doctrine which is at complete odds with the Scriptures.
Even people like Adam Clarke could see right through it, here is what he wrote...
Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary - 2 Corinthians 5
Now while Adam Clarke views the second use of the word in 2Cor 5:21 as being more accurately rendered "sin offering." I can still reasonably see it being rendered as "sin" in the sense that Jesus was made a curse for us in in the sense that the sins of men are laid on Jesus (sin bearer) but most definitely not in the sense where Jesus became a sinner and was then punished by God. No way for that would be contradicting that He was without spot. 2Cor 5:21 is a semantic issue in translation and understanding.
Just as Rom 8:3 says this...
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The above verse does not literally mean that flesh is literally sinful (ie. sin being some sort of substance trapped in the flesh ala gnostic Original Sin), it simply means that Jesus was incarnated in the flesh (in which men sin) and that being in the same state he overcame sin and thus condemned it being a fellow man. After-all He was out example.
Anyway I am digressing here just to give a little more information for those interested.
My original statements stand true.
1. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner.
2. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution.
2. If Jesus was punished by God in the place of the sinner and thus absorbed the wrath of God then either He did not do this for everyone OR universal salvation is true.
3. If Penal Substitution is true then sin and virtue are transferable properties rather than being moral choices.
4. If Penal Substitution is true then God does not forgive sins but rather appropriates them to the innocent in order to excuse the guilty.
5. Penal Substitution is clearly an invention of the Reformers as they added a judicial element to the Satisfaction view which was developed by Anselm.
6. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.
Here are two more relevant passages for people to seriously consider.
Mar 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
Actually you have all kinds of proof. Your just blind. God has used men to pour out his wrath many times. Look at revelation. where the time of Gods wrath is showed to us. How much of his wrath is men killing men. No to mention. Gods wrath is turning his back. God turned his back on Christ, if this is not wrath, I don;t know what else there could be, because this is the worst punishment any man could get.
You keep your law, I will keep grace. Your just like the pharisee, you reject Christ also. You reject his love, his kindness and his patience.