LOGIC

[Grandpa]

If we do not physically eat we will die, if we do not spiritually eat we will spiritually die. There is no such thing as OSAS.

That is the logic that Wattie is trying to show you.

No man dies from starvation when food is being freely offered at the biggest buffet ever.

Once a person is spiritually alive to God they can't walk away from Him, just like the starving man can't walk away from the free buffet...

 

[cfultz3]

Okay..

When I was saying that eternal means eternal.. you were saying that if you had eternal life and their was nothing that could be done to lose.. you would then go and do whatever you liked.

Well, this is thinking carnally minded. -- This is accepting that we have freewill. It would be foolish to abandon ones walk, but sometimes it happens.

If someone rescued you from death or drowning.. wouldn't you want to be thankful back? -- Yes

This is the reason to serve God. Our 'reasonable response' - Agree

A person who has accepted Christ.. has the Holy Spirit inside them. So when they do fail, do go rebellious.. it isn't like their isn't any consequence.. they are still disciplined, rebuked, admonished. That is a fair consequence.

Parents do this with their children.. as I typed before. -- I totally accept this, seeing He is our Abba. I have absolutely NO contentions against this. But as I have also wrote: the one who defiles his temple, God Himself will defile that person. This is not speaking of those who will RE- turn in rependance, it is speaking of those who will not RE-turn from their rebellion.

The only consequence that isn't given is damnation.. because that would be making a mockery of the eternal salvation given in the first place. -- Do we not need to repent? Can we continue in rebellion?


Also.. the folks 'outside the gates' in Revelation. Take note that there are two different groups that are rebellious in Revelation. One gets completely destroyed.. the other is 'outside the gates'. -- The Son's Throne is over the new Heaven and the new Earth (all things have been returned to the Father), those of the rebellion will not be found anywhere in that new Kingdom. But as they wished, they are separated from God forever. Those of the rebellion cannot be a part of all things new, seeing that there will be no more death, they would then be freed to live to the flesh, the very thing which caused them their separation.

Now-- if you read earlier verses - you will see that people in heaven.. people can come and go out of those gates. --But can they come and go from the new Heaven and new Earth?

If 'outside the gates' was hell.. there would be no coming in and out of the heavenly Jerusalem. - Correct. So, Hades will have no part anymore in the sceme of things.

So there is a problem here.

Could it be- that the people 'outside the gates' are in heaven.. because they were given eternal life, but because they were rebellious after receiving eternal life.. are not allowed into the Heavenly Jerusalem?
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


In other words.. could it be that Heaven.. is more that the Heavenly Jerusalem? The Heavenly Jerusalem being the centrepiece.. like the local church of heaven? -- Oh yes brother. It is so much more, that new Kingdom will consist of everything. Nothing of the old will remain. Nothing.

I know that this idea is mere surmising.. but if only faithful are in heaven.. then you have got yourself works based salvation. -- . Please brother.


Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So- is without-- in hell? Or without entrance into the city?

............

 

[Grandpa]

By your logic you are teaching OSAS which is not Biblical.
Romans 11:20-21 KJV
(20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Let's examine your logic.

We stand by faith.

You are saying we should have faith that we can lose our salvation by walking away.

That's not standing by faith, is it?

Standing by faith is having confidence that the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us. Standing by faith is having confidence that no one can take us from His Hand. Standing by faith is having confidence that nothing can come between us and God's Love.

 

[Laodicea]

I believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God But, OSAS is a false doctrine.
Matthew 24:45-51 KJV
(45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
(46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
(47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
(48) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
(49) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
(50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
(51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[wattie]

That is contrary to the scriptures.
Rom 2:5-8
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, If a Christian disobeys God's word they will incur His wrath.

Rom 11:21-22
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You will not reap the eternal reward if you don't abide in Christ.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. If a Christian lives in rebellion to God, they will not inherit the kingdom of God, unlike what OSAS advocates say.

Gal 6:7-8
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. If a Christian decides to sow to the flesh, they will not reap life everlasting.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Well, it's no fun to be kept outside while the party is going on inside, is it?


Since when did faithfulness to God become works based salvation?

Rev 2:10- Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Only the faithful will receive a crown of life.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
'Once saved always saved no matter what sins you commit' is contrary to the scriptures because it says that nothing that defiles and works abomination will inherit the kingdom of God.

Also, remember that some names will be blotted out of the book of Life. I think that speaks volumes.

CONTEXT

Romans 2:

Is the wrath being talked about the wrath of condemnation to hell-- or the wrath of disciplining a child to bring the relationship closer?


Romans 11:

Same case as above. Remember that 'eternal rewards'-- could be a reference to the greater rewards being given to those who are faithful.. rather than just entrance to heaven.

1 Corinthians 6

Remember that Paul is writing to a whole local church. Alot of the verses apply to the Corinth body as a whole and not directly to an individual alone.

'You' or 'Ye' in this book is- the whole church at Corinth.. not one individual

But also-- this is talking about inheritance.

The question is whether inheritance into the kingdom and entrance to the kingdom are the same thing. A person can enter a home, but they may not any inheritance given.. despite being a living member of the home.

Again-- the rewards given to faithful saved people and people who were saved but unfaithful are different.

Galatians 6-

Well read the context of Galatians. Paul was writing to churches.

What happens to a whole church body.. you don't necessarily directly apply to an individual.

Say a ship gets shipwrecked somewhere.. does that mean every individual inside the ship is now dead?

Also the context of Galatians is about whether the churches in Galatia will return to Judaism-- to the 'works of the flesh' or stay faithful to the New Testament system of faith. That is the whole point of it.

Paul wasn't challenging them on their saved or not saved status.. but the system they were under. If they are under the New Testament system of faith.. then they should not return to the broken system of Judaism which did not work under the Law.

2 Peter

Making your calling sure-- this is not about eternal life. Read the whole context. Daily service and eternal salvation are not the same thing.

Revelation

Well again.. in Revelation there are two different rebellious groups. One is completely destroyed.. with hell.. the other is 'without' or 'outside' the gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem city.

There is need to distingish between them.

Other thing about Revelation is that, like Galatians.. it to churches.

Do again to you apply what happens to a church body as a whole.. as a matter of eternal salvation?

A car may crash.. yet the occupants remain alive. Maybe some may die.. maybe some live. What happens to car.. does not necessarily happen to the individuals inside it.

 

[psychomom]

I believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God But, OSAS is a false doctrine.

.......................

I apologize, Laodicea, I don't mean to mock you.
But that made me smile.
Because the very fact that nothing can separate us from His love,
(with "nothing" meaning "nothing" in the Greek)
sort of shows what Wattie's saying.
-ellie

 

[psychomom]

CONTEXT
Romans 2:
Is the wrath being talked about the wrath of condemnation to hell-- or the wrath of disciplining a child to bring the relationship closer?

or......is it possible that not every word of the New Covenant writings is referring to believers?

I am afraid our friend starfield has used this passage out of context, as we who are in Christ are never looked at wrathfully by our Abba. ♥
These verses in Romans are speaking to/of the Jews, as the first few chapters of the book address the covenant God made with the nation of Israel, and the law of Moses.
If anyone cares to finish reading the chapter, I think this idea will be borne out.
-ellie

 

[cfultz3]

Wattie,

The below comment has been on my mind and I cannot seem to go to sleep. So, I will say what I have to say so that I can go to sleep in peace.

In reference to you having said: I know that this idea is mere surmising.. but if only faithful are in heaven.. then you have got yourself works based salvation.

I responded: -- . Please brother.

Now, I say the following to all: God has not said that His Bride (those who are believers) can be adulterous, but told us to be virgins. He has also told us the cosmic Laws of a Husband's right to divorce a cheating spouse, as He proved His willingness to carry through with Law when He divorced a Nation. Even to this day, that Law still stands among members of His Body.

What is told us if a member of our own body offends. Pluck it out. Chop it off. It is indeed better for the rest of the Body to enter Heaven then to have one member of that Body to bring you down to outer darkness. If the Body of Christ is to have thrown out the unrepentant member or risk becoming infected also, how much more are we, the adulteress, not that member who was not faithful.

And if it is said that if one of us were to start wandering off, and if a brother were to turn that sinner back around towards the Light, then it is not also true that that brother has saved a soul from death (second death)? (Jas 5:19-20)


Listen, we are to be found faithful. Please, no one can be a virgin who is not ready for her wedding feast. Why would Jesus possess a tainted Bride? Don't' cheat on your Husband. Neither play the harlot (servant to mammoth) or the idolatrous (servant to any other god). Let your Husband take pride in you, a member of His Bride.

 

[wattie]

Wattie,

The below comment has been on my mind and I cannot seem to go to sleep. So, I will say what I have to say so that I can go to sleep in peace.

In reference to you having said: I know that this idea is mere surmising.. but if only faithful are in heaven.. then you have got yourself works based salvation.

I responded: -- . Please brother.

Now, I say the following to all: God has not said that His Bride (those who are believers) can be adulterous, but told us to be virgins. He has also told us the cosmic Laws of a Husband's right to divorce a cheating spouse, as He proved His willingness to carry through with Law when He divorced a Nation. Even to this day, that Law still stands among members of His Body.

What is told us if a member of our own body offends. Pluck it out. Chop it off. It is indeed better for the rest of the Body to enter Heaven then to have one member of that Body to bring you down to outer darkness. If the Body of Christ is to have thrown out the unrepentant member or risk becoming infected also, how much more are we, the adulteress, not that member who was not faithful.

And if it is said that if one of us were to start wandering off, and if a brother were to turn that sinner back around towards the Light, then it is not also true that that brother has saved a soul from death (second death)? (Jas 5:19-20)


Listen, we are to be found faithful. Please, no one can be a virgin who is not ready for her wedding feast. Why would Jesus possess a tainted Bride? Don't' cheat on your Husband. Neither play the harlot (servant to mammoth) or the idolatrous (servant to any other god). Let your Husband take pride in you, a member of His Bride.

It's pretty simple

If there is anything YOU do through good deeds and works to gain entrance to heaven.. that is works based salvation. The reason is because the person has to attain some level to be accepted into heaven.

This makes a mockery of Jesus payment for sins for saved person.

His love is full -- complete.. unconditional - the agape love. He also works with brotherly love-- and child to parent love. The unconditional love remains through everything. The other kinds of love determine how close a saved person is in relationship to Jesus.


Now let's assume-- as you are saying that someone can undo their salvation by being rebellious.

Now-- how many sins have you yourself committed?

I know absolutely no human being who is perfect. Absolutely everyone fails at some point.

So what level-- what standard is there that causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw His indwelling?

If it is a subjective standard-- then there is no way anyone can be secure in the love of Jesus.



The other thing is-

A person who is saved-- does have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. Therefore it is highly unlikely they are going to live as before.. because when they do rebell or fail.. they get discipline.. conviction .. rebuke etc..

so when they do fail in their walk.. and continue to fail... they are going to be having their heart pricked and pricked and pricked by Jesus! So therefore, it would be unlikely they would keep in those rebellious ways.

There is also fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling someone.. the natural result of the Holy Spirit sealing someone unto the day of redemption.

This fruit isn't always easy to tell.. but when someone is saved.. it will be there.. however small.


So this isn't about getting a 'free ride' or 'now I am saved so now I will do whatever I want'

That is thinking carnally minded.. as I typed b4.

A person who thinks those things after being saved is going to be convicted by the Holy Spirit to change their attitude.

The depth of love given by Jesus in giving everlasting life to those who accept Christ is the reason to serve.

 

[Laodicea]

Do you know the difference between justification and sanctification?

 

[cfultz3]

It's pretty simple

If there is anything YOU do through good deeds and works to gain entrance to heaven.. that is works based salvation. The reason is because the person has to attain some level to be accepted into heaven.

This makes a mockery of Jesus payment for sins for saved person.

His love is full -- complete.. unconditional - the agape love. He also works with brotherly love-- and child to parent love. The unconditional love remains through everything. The other kinds of love determine how close a saved person is in relationship to Jesus.


Now let's assume-- as you are saying that someone can undo their salvation by being rebellious.

Now-- how many sins have you yourself committed?

I know absolutely no human being who is perfect. Absolutely everyone fails at some point.

So what level-- what standard is there that causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw His indwelling?

If it is a subjective standard-- then there is no way anyone can be secure in the love of Jesus.



The other thing is-

A person who is saved-- does have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. Therefore it is highly unlikely they are going to live as before.. because when they do rebell or fail.. they get discipline.. conviction .. rebuke etc..

so when they do fail in their walk.. and continue to fail... they are going to be having their heart pricked and pricked and pricked by Jesus! So therefore, it would be unlikely they would keep in those rebellious ways.

There is also fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling someone.. the natural result of the Holy Spirit sealing someone unto the day of redemption.

This fruit isn't always easy to tell.. but when someone is saved.. it will be there.. however small.


So this isn't about getting a 'free ride' or 'now I am saved so now I will do whatever I want'

That is thinking carnally minded.. as I typed b4.

A person who thinks those things after being saved is going to be convicted by the Holy Spirit to change their attitude.

The depth of love given by Jesus in giving everlasting life to those who accept Christ is the reason to serve.

You know what,

you are right. It was just my silliness in thinking I had to be faithful. Now, if you would excuse, I have to go and tell the world about how we are free to be a fornicator.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's pretty simple

If there is anything YOU do through good deeds and works to gain entrance to heaven.. that is works based salvation. The reason is because the person has to attain some level to be accepted into heaven.

This makes a mockery of Jesus payment for sins for saved person.

His love is full -- complete.. unconditional - the agape love. He also works with brotherly love-- and child to parent love. The unconditional love remains through everything. The other kinds of love determine how close a saved person is in relationship to Jesus.


Now let's assume-- as you are saying that someone can undo their salvation by being rebellious.

Now-- how many sins have you yourself committed?

I know absolutely no human being who is perfect. Absolutely everyone fails at some point.

So what level-- what standard is there that causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw His indwelling?

If it is a subjective standard-- then there is no way anyone can be secure in the love of Jesus.



The other thing is-

A person who is saved-- does have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. Therefore it is highly unlikely they are going to live as before.. because when they do rebell or fail.. they get discipline.. conviction .. rebuke etc..

so when they do fail in their walk.. and continue to fail... they are going to be having their heart pricked and pricked and pricked by Jesus! So therefore, it would be unlikely they would keep in those rebellious ways.

There is also fruit from the Holy Spirit indwelling someone.. the natural result of the Holy Spirit sealing someone unto the day of redemption.

This fruit isn't always easy to tell.. but when someone is saved.. it will be there.. however small.


So this isn't about getting a 'free ride' or 'now I am saved so now I will do whatever I want'

That is thinking carnally minded.. as I typed b4.

A person who thinks those things after being saved is going to be convicted by the Holy Spirit to change their attitude.

The depth of love given by Jesus in giving everlasting life to those who accept Christ is the reason to serve.

I am sure people will mock what I highlighted. and will just add, anyone who has been though this (as I have) would understand perfectly clear what your saying here. When your alone in the world, and there is nothing left. You know where to return to. Of course you knew all along,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know what,

you are right. It was just my silliness in thinking I had to be faithful. Now, if you would excuse, I have to go and tell the world about how we are free to be a fornicator.

Wow, How you got that out of what he said, I have no clue, Did you even read it?

 

[cfultz3]

I am sure people will mock what I highlighted. and will just add, anyone who has been though this (as I have) would understand perfectly clear what your saying here. When your alone in the world, and there is nothing left. You know where to return to. Of course you knew all along,

That is all I am saying too, my friend. It is all about RE-turn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is some more logic
John 6:53 KJV
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:58 KJV
(58) This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 6:63 KJV
(63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What happens if we do not eat?

More importantly. How many times do you have to eat>

Notice how you highlighted one part, and did not highlight the rest.

Live forever, who ever eats, does this not mean anything?

Is this not the food which endures forever, unlike the food which their fathers ate and died?

 

[cfultz3]

Wow, How you got that out of what he said, I have no clue, Did you even read it?

copy and paste

In reference to you having said: I know that this idea is mere surmising.. but if only faithful are in heaven.. then you have got yourself works based salvation.

I responded: -- . Please brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we do not physically eat we will die, if we do not spiritually eat we will spiritually die. There is no such thing as OSAS.

Then you ignore most of what jesus said in John 6.

Eat food which endures forever (because it never loses its life giving properties)

Whoever eats will never hunger or thirst. If OSAS was false. we would have to keep eating, because the food would not endure, and we would get hungery.

Whoever eats (believes) will never die. and live forever, and have eternal life

If OSAS is not true, then we are not assured we will live forever, never die, and we can not possibly have eternal life.

Whoever eats will be given Gods assurance of being risen on the last day. If OSAS is not true, we can never have this assurance

Whoever eats abides in Christ, and Christ in them, as long as he lives, they will live. If OSAS is not true, then We are not assured that Christ will abide in us, and our life is not based on his life. Or the only other senerio. Is Christ would somehow die, causing us to die with him, because he is the one who empowers us.

if OSAS is not true, Jesus lied many times in John 6. Not to mention john 3 (whoever believes ins not condemned and has eternal life.) and John 4 (ask and he will give us living water swelling up to eternal life)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

copy and paste

In reference to you having said: I know that this idea is mere surmising.. but if only faithful are in heaven.. then you have got yourself works based salvation.

I responded: -- . Please brother.

All I am saying is I read what you responded to, And I saw nothing in what he said which would allow, or promote living in fornication. So I was suprised in the way you responded to him.

If only faithfull are in heaven, then we have works?? Please explain

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you know the difference between justification and sanctification?

Justification is one time deal, which lasts forever, It means made righteous, forgiven, Declared innocent.

Sanctification means set apart. There are two types. Positional sanctification, set apart from world, as adopted as Gods family. Thi occures BECAUSE of justification.

the other is conditional. Or what we are doing in any particular moment (following spirit or flesh)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is all I am saying too, my friend. It is all about RE-turn.

And this is the point. NO ONE WOULD NOT RETURN if they are truly saved. As Jesus said, I will go and get my lost sheep, and return him to the flock. Saying one would never return is taking away from the power of God. remember, God knows what will get you to return, he knows us better than ourselves. And he will use that, because he knows us.

He does not need to force us, He just knows WHAT will get us to return.

This is why some prodigal children suffer more, It takes more to get them back than others.

But they all will return, Unless they die before they had the chance. But God is not going to disqualify them because they died before they had the chance to return. They are still his children.