Paul did NOT die to the law!

[Eccl12and13]

So then what Law would be the one we are to keep? What exactly are you saying? The "levtie law" pertained to priesthood, the sacrificial, offering, etc, were laws, as well as the levitical laws. Before this, there was the Patriarchal law, it was replaced by the Mosaic. What other laws are there besides the NT?

Yes. There WERE other laws before God gave the Laws of the Levites and their job of sacrifice. And it was because of the breaking of God's laws that were in effect that He added the laws of sacrifice.

The laws of animal sacrifice was the one that was nailed to His cross. All of the others must yet be kept.


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[Eccl12and13]

But you yourself admit you don't keep the commandments (you sin/transgress the law). Where does that leave you under your doctrine?

It leaves me doing as God instructs when we pray. We are to ask for forgiveness of our sins. Asking for forgiveness is a law.

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[Grandpa]

[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



these verses are key. Paul wasnt saying we dont obey
But his emphasis is how? what is the means? the flesh? or the Spirit?
To justify us? Or an outworking of our faith and Love to the Lord which
is byway of His grace/power?

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law???

No, I didn't. I failed at keeping God's Perfect Law.

God's Perfect Law is Spiritual. It is to be kept by faith, through the Spirit. Your flesh is enmity to this.

Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

No, of course not, that is foolishness.

God's Perfect Law is not kept by the will of men in the flesh. This is pride, outward holiness...

Obedience to God's Perfect Law is given as a gift to us by Grace, through His Holy Spirit. Without the Lord Jesus we cannot obey His Commands.

 

[cfultz3]

Yes. There WERE other laws before God gave the Laws of the Levites and their job of sacrifice. And it was because of the breaking of God's laws that were in effect that He added the laws of sacrifice.

The laws of animal sacrifice was the one that was nailed to His cross. All of the others must yet be kept
.

in addition:

and they are simply kept by one command: to love. In by loving you have fulfilled the Law. Does it not say that all the Law hangs upon two........?

 

[Mediate]

Paul's teachings are a revelation on their own even.

He says that there was none who obeyed more zealously than he did. But this would not get him to heaven.

He spoke of the guilt and condemnation int he law and how Jesus rid him of that.

Paul teaches us that we cannot be perfect by the law. That the resurrection of men and changing will be whenever we are made totally averse to sinful thought and desire.

It is a testament that a man who was once horrible would bring the teaching of God's very love for all men to make us perfect in a way we cannot accomplish on our own.

But, it is written in the letter to the corinthians that instead of doing what is right to get to heaven, we do it for its benefit to our fellow man.

The joy of God wasn't in Paul until he discovered the true REASONS for obeying the law.

 

[cfultz3]

Obedience to God's Perfect Law is given as a gift to us by Grace, through His Holy Spirit. Without the Lord Jesus we cannot obey His Commands.

So that I might understand, will you clarify this please. I have always understood that by killing the flesh we become more spirtual and by which we are more willing to follow the Spirit, as opposed to being in the flesh and more willing to follow the desires of the flesh. The way I see it, if obedeince is a gift through grace, then what happened to that same freewill we had when we were willful partners with the flesh to do its desires?

 

[Grandpa]

So that I might understand, will you clarify this please. I have always understood that by killing the flesh we become more spirtual and by which we are more willing to follow the Spirit, as opposed to being in the flesh and more willing to follow the desires of the flesh. The way I see it, if obedeince is a gift through grace, then what happened to that same freewill we had when we were willful partners with the flesh to do its desires?

Matthew 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Lord Jesus grows the fruit. We abide in Him. Without Him we can do nothing.

What happened to freewill?? When we were given a New Heart and His Holy Spirit this caused us to desire to do His Will and not our own. Love causes us to walk in His Statutes and it is absolutely a gift from God.

 

[haz]

It leaves me doing as God instructs when we pray. We are to ask for forgiveness of our sins. Asking for forgiveness is a law.

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I agree God forgives.

But only past sin was dealt with on the cross, Rom 3:25. As Christians we now have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) and "cannot sin" (1John 3:9). This is because we are now in Christ. God sees Christ in us and his holiness and righteousness is imputed to us.

Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law, because God has justified us, Rom 8:33 and we're not under the law for righteousness.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

 

[psychomom]

Hmmm...all my sin was future while Christ was on the cross.

 

[Red33]

Hmmm...all my sin was future while Christ was on the cross.

This is such a simple thing to understand yet so many just coast right by and never consider it. Also, how are we to understand the application of this verse as it pertains to the Lamb being slain...

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[psychomom]

Wow.
As my buddy Suze says,
"When did God put that in there?" (I knew it was there, but had never done the math)

My 20 yo daughter is sitting here with me, wondering why this blew me away.
"Mom, of course God forgave us before He ever began creating, our Names were in The Book! He had already purposed to save us."

How can she be so cool? She must get it from her dad. And her Dad.

 

[Eccl12and13]

But only past sin was dealt with on the cross, Rom 3:25. As Christians we now have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) and "cannot sin" (1John 3:9). This is because we are now in Christ. God sees Christ in us and his holiness and righteousness is imputed to us.

Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law, because God has justified us, Rom 8:33 and we're not under the law for righteousness.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


If it were IMPOSSIBLE for Christians to be charged with sin, why would Paul give those that have received the Holy Ghost a warning of what could happen if they fall away.

If it were IMPOSSIBLE for those that received the Holy Ghost to fall away, why give a warning?



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[Abiding]

are you sure you understand Hebrews at all?
If a person came back to church having fallen away
for a few years would you tell him he cant repent?

Will you tell him no way...hes toast and its impossible to renew?

 

[Eccl12and13]

are you sure you understand Hebrews at all?
If a person came back to church having fallen away
for a few years would you tell him he cant repent?

Will you tell him no way...hes toast and its impossible to renew?

Of course I would not. I CANNOT! But let me ask you.......do you know how many times God WILL? Can you supply that number?

Do you believe God will continue to forgive deliberate sin until a person dies and STILL allow them entrance into His kingdom?

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


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[eternally-gratefull]

Of course I would not. I CANNOT! But let me ask you.......do you know how many times God WILL? Can you supply that number?

Do you believe God will continue to forgive deliberate sin until a person dies and STILL allow them entrance into His kingdom?

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


.

You fail to see Abidings point.

The passage you used said quite clearly, If we fall away, we can not be renewed to repentance (re-saved) now you saying they can be renewed?? Which is it? Does God contradict himself?

 

[Mediate]

Sin is ever present. But it's deathly consequence is not.

I can still sin. I still commit sin. And that sin is still upon me. And after I die, that sin will still be revisited upon me.

But in Christ I cheat death, because death no longer holds its power.

What I do in my life, I will be payed back in eternal life.

For what we do on earth is eternal in heaven.

So then I shall be repayed by what I have payed to others.

In otherwords, my sins will be shown to me in a way as for me to realise their extent for eternity.

Then I shall know the truth and the truth shall set me free.

I, on earth, sin and see what is as a dark glass or faded mirror.

But by Jesus death I am afforded life to look unto these sins as the mirror is no longer faded.

I cannot be perfect in this life. Perfection is a pointless endeavour.

But love!!! I can do that.

 

[cfultz3]

If sins are pre-forgiven, what then is the purpoe of the Throne of Mercy? Is it not also said that we are to forgive in order to be forgiven? It would then seem to me that we are not forgiven until we ask for forgiveness, of whch leading is brought about through the Holy Spirit. Again, if I am pre-forgiven, why even ask the One on that Throne to forgive me?

1Jn 1:9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

Luk 11:4 and forgive us our sins, for (seeing that (reason)) also we ourselves forgive every one indebted to us; and mayest Thou not bring us into temptation; but do Thou deliver us from the evil.'

 

[Mediate]

It is my next life where perfection comes and i take my PLACE in heaven.

Whatever place that may be is ironically down to my condemnation of myself.

Hell (and i really dislike that term), awaits me. But not hell like the untrained eye sees it.

I would gladly put myself through hell to be as my God wishes, and save my brothers from it

The one who seeks God will understand what I mean.

My torment and my weakness will be my strength.

My God will deliver me from the deepest hell

I only pray that every person is given broad shoulders and food fit for a slave.

If I wrong, I dont ask that I be let off, I ask that I be shown it unto me in equal measure. For how else will my mind be purged in a just manner?

It is only through revelation of the truth that I can be completed.

For we see in part and prophesy in part. But we shall see and be known even as He is fully known.

Christ felt the weight of every sin ever commited for his brothers even though he never commited even one of them.

I have no right to life, but here I am, given it for eternity.

Yet God's love extends far beyond just that, and many do not even realise it yet.

An eye for an eye turned right on it's head. You see, we are all from God.

Salvation being saved, having all sin upon him and being delivered from the lowest hell, resurrected into life.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

 

[Eccl12and13]

You fail to see Abidings point.

The passage you used said quite clearly, If we fall away, we can not be renewed to repentance (re-saved) now you saying they can be renewed?? Which is it? Does God contradict himself?

People.... let's use just a little common sense and scripture.

Do you believe that ALL of the apostles were perfect and NEVER sinned after receiving the knowledge of the Lord and the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe that God would deny one entrance into His kingdom for inadvertent sin?

Did not Jesus command us to ask for forgiveness when we pray?

And did you NOT read my entire post? Here it is AGAIN;

Do you believe God will continue to forgive deliberate sin until a person dies and STILL allow them entrance into His kingdom?

I didn't ask about one, two or 87 committed sins with request for forgiveness. I asked about DELIBERATE SIN until death?

Now.....let's read the scriptures again and then read some of the actions of Paul.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Again...God's word tells us what will happen if we sin willfully. Now let's read some of the actions of Paul.


Rom.7
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Above Paul tells us there are times when he KNOWS he is breaking the laws of God; he knows for a fact that he is committing a sin. How do we know this? Let's paraphrase the above;

"For that which I do..." (The actions that I do), "... I allow not..." (I do not do those things), "...for what I would..." (For the things that I should do and want to do; obey the laws of God), "...that do I not..." (I do not do them), "...but what I hate..." (But those things that I hate; breaking God's law or sinning), "...that do I..." (These are the things I end up doing)

Now let's confirm it is God's laws that Paul knows he is breaking. Let's read the next verse;

[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

And again....let's paraphrase;

"If then I do that which I would not..." (If I do those things that I know I should not do), "...I consent unto the law that it is good..." (I agree or confirm that God's laws are good).

And why does Paul agree that God's laws are good? It is because of the knowledge of God's laws that condemns him. This feeling of knowing what he is doing is wrong comes from knowing God's laws.


Now.....Paul STILL struggled with keeping God's laws AFTER coming into the knowledge of the truth. Do you think Paul continued to do what he hated...or after awhile did he do his best to NOT do those things which were sins in the eyes of God?

Now.....do you believe God would have forgiven Paul if he CONTINUED to knowingly break His laws?


We ALL sin...even those that have the Holy Spirit, just as Paul tells us he did. Which is why Jesus commands us to ask for forgiveness when we pray.


Which leads me to the other question that I presented. Here it is AGAIN:

Do you know how many times God WILL forgive one of their sins before saying enough? Can you supply that number?

Readers.....let's use common sense for just awhile.

God is a loving and forgiving God. But He does have as limit. He does have a point at which He will say ENOUGH! For some it may be just once or twice. For others it may be several or even hundreds or thousands of times.

God does not contradict Himself. He will forgive sins BUT.....He will also come to a point when He says enough and punish those that also sin against Him!

But does any of us know when enough will be enough? Do WE know that number?


.

 

[Mediate]

Does one confess in front of a crowd? Does one say 'wow everyone i sinned'.

Or does one quietly fade back and say 'i should not have done that'?

What does it take for one 'not to have done that'?

Do the sin seven times? Seventy times seven?

Nothing is instant.

Nothing is perfect and nothing or nobody is without sin.

So how can anyone boast or be above another? How can anyone say 'i live a better life than my brother'?

For it isnt what is outward that matters, it is what is in the heart.

I couod give all my money to charity and not give a damn about starving kids. 'I do it for a place in heaven'.

So what compassion is that?

The same way, i could sin a thousand times unknowingly and realise. My 'confession' is actually simply my realisation, however long that takes.

Seventy times seven, I ask of you. Seventy times seven I will give to you, and seventy times seven, i hope God gives to you regardless of what you do to me.

For even in sinning knowingly, we obviously do not see the sin fully, it is as a faded mirror or foggy glass.

Seventy times seven.

Do not be quick to judge another, nor easy to anger.

I have sinned knowingly because i did not see something, there was a piece missing, the truth eas incomplete, and sometimes I still do.

This is why the pharisees needed Jesus sharp edged sword; outwardly judging rather than inwardly changing

People are not perfect. Hence grace.

Even for years one mightnt see as they need see.

But alas, God dictates our boundaries and it needs to be so. If everyone was created perfect, there would be no need for any of this. But we were not, for we are not. And there is a need. Test oneself, save satan the trouble.