NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

zone · Nov 30, 2012

oh fes.
i had to pause at 3:50.
nausea. complete revulsion.
i just don't know what to say any more about this stuff.
i can't get far enough away from it.

unclefester · Nov 30, 2012

And if you're still not convinced that this is satanic madness, have a further look. This gets right to the point rather quickly.

RICK JOYNER MORNINGSTAR MADNESS3 - YouTube

unclefester · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

We cross posted. Don't look at the next clip then. Utterly satanic and nauseating. But some NEED to see this stuff for what it is.

zone · Nov 30, 2012

unclefester said:

The New Apostolic Reformation is a movement in Protestant Christianity largely associated with Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement. The basic thesis asserts that God is restoring the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of Prophet and Apostle.

New Apostolic Reformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

......................

i am against you people who plan this witchcraft in dark rooms then drag it into the church.
i am against you.
God have mercy on you.

unclefester · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

It is U-G-L-Y ... and an utter abomination unto our Lord. I am inclined to believe that many do not realize the things that they have given an "Amen" to. Perhaps these "pictures" will speak a thousand Words to them. I pray this is so ... as I know you dearly do as well.

GreenNnice · Nov 30, 2012

kenisyes said:

I spent almost 10 minutes looking all this up. So I will make a statement, and then everyone can disagree.

Nothing new has ever been started in the Body of Christ (including these movements in the OP, Christian TV, and this website), other than by the mechanism in I Cor. 12:28. Understood correctly, in each case, we have seen the action, in order, of apostle, prophet, teacher, works of power, etc. Most people do not recognize the operation when they see it. This is because many churches have found it easier to teach that these ministries are not operative. The teaching became so pervasive during the middle ages that the definitions were forgotten, but are slowly being rediscovered now (hence the movements). This means that our whole definition of ministry and fitness for ministry is flawed, cessationism is simply factually untrue, dispensationalism is our imagination (other the second coming and those specific related events, which includes the return of the Jews to Israel, God has treated us the same since 33AD), we create the appearance of new relationships with God by how we organize ourselves to refuse certain things He has given us.

I think that covers them all.

Beautiful.

zone · Nov 30, 2012

unclefester said:

yes on all counts Fes.
even muting the sound and reading the vid-maker's text is critical and should put this thing in the trash where it belongs.
LocalPastor made a lot of good vids.
z

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

Abiding said:

What they did not teach was the necessity of accepting the gifts, and the handful of Scriptures that teach how to use them, like "let 2 or 3 prophecy and the rest judge what is said."

Gifts were in use througout the ages, but not in the churches. Tongues, prophecy, etc. returned at Bethel Bible College in Kansas, 11:55 PM New Years eve 1900. W.J. Seymour started the Azusa Street Mission from there. The mainline churches rejected the gifts almost en masse, refusing to believe they could exist. Thus, teaching was denied, as the Scriptures were requoted from the pulpits, claiming all the gifts were forgeries. While a few denominations were formed, they all emphasized the gifts, and an imbalance was created. By 1910, a few people wrote books to teach others about the gifts. Banned from the churches, the books were sold on the open market. By 1918, people were buying the books who were not saved, and started telling themselves they had the gifts. This is the begining of the modern the New Age movement. Witchcraft, eastern philosophy, etc., were grafted on, since without the Holy Spirit and no teaching, people could not tell the difference.

I grew up in this mileu. You are 7 years younger, and the problem was corrected by the time you were 18 or so. Before the Charismatic renewal, if God gave you any gifts, as He had me, you were offered two choices, shut up or become a witch. I lucked out, I think if I was two years older, I would have had no outlet at all.

False charismatics, absolutely. It's a pendulum swing. But that does not change the history I lived through.

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

hi kenisyes.
well, i guess there's a pretty big gulf between our understanding of these particular things.
we can talk about it, if you like.

if we could just finally accept the truth (hidden in plain view) about 9-11, the rest is quickly clear.
israelis/necons (not the Israel of God) did it. the masonic network and all.
i dunno. if we haven't seen this yet, there's just too much information to fill in at once.
zone

Of course we can talk about it. Post openly or e-mail me.

GreenNnice · Nov 30, 2012

kenisyes said:

What they did not teach was the necessity of accepting the gifts, and the handful of Scriptures that teach how to use them, like "let 2 or 3 prophecy and the rest judge what is said."

Gifts were in use througout the ages, but not in the churches. Tongues, prophecy, etc. returned at Bethel Bible College in Kansas, 11:55 PM New Years eve 1900. W.J. Seymour started the Azusa Street Mission from there. The mainline churches rejected the gifts almost en masse, refusing to believe they could exist. Thus, teaching was denied, as the Scriptures were requoted from the pulpits, claiming all the gifts were forgeries. While a few denominations were formed, they all emphasized the gifts, and an imbalance was created. By 1910, a few people wrote books to teach others about the gifts. Banned from the churches, the books were sold on the open market. By 1918, people were buying the books who were not saved, and started telling themselves they had the gifts. This is the begining of the modern the New Age movement. Witchcraft, eastern philosophy, etc., were grafted on, since without the Holy Spirit and no teaching, people could not tell the difference.

I grew up in this mileu. You are 7 years younger, and the problem was corrected by the time you were 18 or so. Before the Charismatic renewal, if God gave you any gifts, as He had me, you were offered two choices, shut up or become a witch. I lucked out, I think if I was two years older, I would have had no outlet at all.

False charismatics, absolutely. It's a pendulum swing. But that does not change the history I lived through.

Beautiful, too

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

Q. Do I think that we need orders in Christianity?

Ideally no. I think that simply being a member of the body of Christ is the greatest honor that we can ever have on this earth. However, because of the present and historic weaknesses of the church in general, they have served a great purpose in creating spiritual advances, and will again do so for at least the near future.

Just as Count Zinzendorf, the true father of modern missions, created the Order of the Mustard Seed, which touched and inspired men like John Wesley to release a spiritual fire in the earth that created the First Great Awakening in America and Europe, I think that the church is in desperate need of groups who will join together to press beyond the state of modern Christianity as it is generally found in most of the world. Call these "elitist" groups if you want, but we need them to call all Christians to higher standards of faith and life. I make no apologies for my plans to start one (which I will explain later), and to assist the OSJ to accomplish its mandate. Such a thing will only be offensive to the lukewarm and the fearful, which in the midst of our present distress, I do not believe we have the time to care about offending.

For several years I have considered starting a special fellowship for those who will rise up to become true Christian knights of the Spirit. A year ago I was given a clear mandate from the Lord to do this, which He also showed me was given many years ago but I had not understood it as such. It is to be a fellowship of those who would walk in a manner worthy of their calling, never retreating before the enemies of the cross, or compromising their principles or integrity, intent on one mission—following the King, fighting His battles, and standing resolutely for His truth.

As a part of this program we are also called to start a similar fellowship for children and youth. I appreciate programs like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, but the church is in need of something that greatly surpasses these programs in preparing the coming generation for their purpose. What we are now starting is a program that takes children from eight years old and plants sound doctrine deep in their hearts, while raising them up to be true knights of the Spirit who will live their entire lives as such. If they are alone in a foreign land, they will conduct themselves as such—always ready to defend the truth, the poor, and the oppressed, representing our King in a manner worthy of His soldiers....

Knights of Malta Rick Joyner | MorningStar Ministries

blah blah blah.

I know nothing of Rick Joyner for the last 10 years. My wife liked his earlier books, and I saw nothing wrong with them back then. I think if she heard this, she'd throw the books out. I don't think the Knights of Malta are connected to the Masons or any of that, but for him to join such an order, or to talk like this is reminiscent of the Medugorje mess that ruined the Catholic renewal. to me, it just takes him out of consideration for any type of change in the Church that might be related to NAR or dispensationalism. He's just trying to restore medieval blind following the leader. He was a leader once, why happens to these people?

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

unclefester said:

We used to refuse to help people who tried to do this stuff in the old days. But, then we complain when people jump up and down a football game, and can't be joyous about God.

Would I do it this way? Absolutely not. Would I help people who did? Not unless God told me to in a special case. But I'd like to wait to see the fruit, before I condemn them for what they think is helping people.

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

unclefester said:

This stuff had started a little by the late 1970's. My wife and I had parodies on it:

Faster than a speeding hail mary
More powerful ________'s thumb (pushing people over)
Able to change the course of anointed prayer meeting in a single bound
It's Captain Charismatic.
(he actually used his claimed "super powers" to help such ministries and start his own church with the people he stole)

I'm right there with you folks. These churches prove the evil of the gifts in exactly the same way as the existence of the Catholic Church proves that they have the correct way to follow Jesus. Wheat and tares.

zone · Nov 30, 2012

kenisyes said:

What they did not teach was the necessity of accepting the gifts, and the handful of Scriptures that teach how to use them, like "let 2 or 3 prophecy and the rest judge what is said."

Gifts were in use througout the ages, but not in the churches. Tongues, prophecy, etc. returned at Bethel Bible College in Kansas, 11:55 PM New Years eve 1900. W.J. Seymour started the Azusa Street Mission from there. The mainline churches rejected the gifts almost en masse, refusing to believe they could exist. Thus, teaching was denied, as the Scriptures were requoted from the pulpits, claiming all the gifts were forgeries. While a few denominations were formed, they all emphasized the gifts, and an imbalance was created. By 1910, a few people wrote books to teach others about the gifts. Banned from the churches, the books were sold on the open market. By 1918, people were buying the books who were not saved, and started telling themselves they had the gifts. This is the begining of the modern the New Age movement. Witchcraft, eastern philosophy, etc., were grafted on, since without the Holy Spirit and no teaching, people could not tell the difference.

I grew up in this mileu. You are 7 years younger, and the problem was corrected by the time you were 18 or so. Before the Charismatic renewal, if God gave you any gifts, as He had me, you were offered two choices, shut up or become a witch. I lucked out, I think if I was two years older, I would have had no outlet at all.

False charismatics, absolutely. It's a pendulum swing. But that does not change the history I lived through.

ken
Backing up in time pre azusa, could you reference the continuation of the pentecostal gifts throughout history?
We have either a continuation, or cessation and restart.

Also, what is your definition of tongues.
This is from my phone, which is smarter than i am, forgive the brevity or error.
First time using this thing. Here goes.
Zone

BarlyGurl · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

I sorta wanna know what you are talking about... but then if it makes Zone sick... I think I prefer not... I take your word and be ignorant... but then I digress...

Ignorant OF WHAT!!!!!

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

the historical evidence is on the side of a cessation around the third or fourth century AD...which is generally later than most cessationists are willing to accept but obviously not something the continuationists would like to acknowledge either...

i can post more of my research on this if there is an interest...

jimmydiggs · Nov 30, 2012

RachelBibleStudent said:

I am interested.

Abiding · Nov 30, 2012

why not Montanism is interesting

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

zone said:

There are no gifts in the church from ca. 250-1900. Gifts in the church meeting were not used at all between these two dates. The gifts surfaced here and there and were denied. Since there was no appropriate outlet, it is difficult to prove, as they took bizarre forms. I know only a few examples, like the prophecy of a thousand years ago that called correctly most of the popes until now (St. Malachy). In John Wesley's autobiography, he was approached by a lady claiming to be a prophet; he understood prophecy and had the correct discernment. I once owned a book published in 1826, called "Magic and the Christian Faith" which discussed the Scriptures from I Cor. 12, and claimed the gifts mentioned there reoccured periodically in private gatherings. There was talk that St. Francis Assisi had tongues (it is still Catholic law that all tongues are demonic). St. Francis' ministry was allowed by the pope because he had a prophetic dream. Joan of Arc had visions that correctly led battles. Many Catholic saints, like St. Blaise, are saints precisely because they prayed for people who got healed. Then, of course, there is always Smith Wigglesworth, although he's like 1900 anyway.

Tongues is the phenomenon of apparently meaningless syllables that a person identifies as God speaking in them. There is authentic, human counterfeit, and demonic. A person with discernment can tell immediately which it is. Real tongues is occasionally a human language recognized by someone present(I know several cases), and normally can be interpreted (I know a man who never missed). The purpose is to bypass the judgmental faculty of the mind.

kenisyes · Nov 30, 2012

RachelBibleStudent said:

There is a wide range. The "Testament of Job" has his daughters receiving charismatic sashes that give them the gifts, as if by magic, as late as 600 AD. A lot depends on what kind of church you were in. Private monasteries may have been using the gifts and not telling anyone well into the late middle ages, and gotten away with it.

NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

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