HELL
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Fear not, there are others as well.
Some outright literal, some symbolic, and some that put the "bull's" eye on this and other false doctrines.
"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira (spiritually afflicted), as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But the one which ye have already, hold fast till I come."
Hold fast. The days will be shortened.
Some outright literal, some symbolic, and some that put the "bull's" eye on this and other false doctrines.
"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira (spiritually afflicted), as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But the one which ye have already, hold fast till I come."
Hold fast. The days will be shortened.
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It's too late for them.
Unless a person is born again (spiritual birth), they will not see Heaven. Salvation is only offered in this life. The bible makes this very clear. Once you're dead it's too late and a person can never know when they'll die. After death comes judgment.. Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"
All who die and end up in Hades will obviously know where they are and of course they will then believe in Jesus, even atheists, but it's too late for them. They denied Jesus, the only one who could save them. If a person does not want to know Christ in this life, why would they want to know him in the next life???
Salvation is a free gift and we receive it through faith. We go by faith, not by sight. To die without Christ is unforgivable.
Unless a person is born again (spiritual birth), they will not see Heaven. Salvation is only offered in this life. The bible makes this very clear. Once you're dead it's too late and a person can never know when they'll die. After death comes judgment.. Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"
All who die and end up in Hades will obviously know where they are and of course they will then believe in Jesus, even atheists, but it's too late for them. They denied Jesus, the only one who could save them. If a person does not want to know Christ in this life, why would they want to know him in the next life???
Salvation is a free gift and we receive it through faith. We go by faith, not by sight. To die without Christ is unforgivable.
D
Tek,
You wondered in a previous post whether it is possible for someone in hell to be saved. First of all, I think there are enough verses in the bible that indicate that when we die, we die. Our bodies go to Sheol/Pit/Grave and our spirit returns to God who gave it. ALL breath of life returns to the father. That is the death that is appointed for all of us, since we have all sinned. There will be two resurrections. One happens for those that are in Christ at His coming, on the last day of this age of mortality that we are currently living in. The other resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked, which happens 1000 years after the first resurrection. The people who are raised up at this second resurrection are those who will be judged at the great white throne judgment and thrown into the lake of fire. They will experience the second death. They will be no more. There will be no chance of salvation for them.
Bottom line... when we die, we no longer know anything, for we are dead, so it is impossible for us to be saved in 'hell'. That is why it is so important that we live our lives for Christ BEFORE we die. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead (God, the Father) will raise up those who are in Christ when He returns. It is this hope that the Believer eagerly waits for. The moment when we are transformed from mortal beings into immortal beings... from corruptible to incorruptible. Halleluyah that Jesus served as our example in every way and is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
You wondered in a previous post whether it is possible for someone in hell to be saved. First of all, I think there are enough verses in the bible that indicate that when we die, we die. Our bodies go to Sheol/Pit/Grave and our spirit returns to God who gave it. ALL breath of life returns to the father. That is the death that is appointed for all of us, since we have all sinned. There will be two resurrections. One happens for those that are in Christ at His coming, on the last day of this age of mortality that we are currently living in. The other resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked, which happens 1000 years after the first resurrection. The people who are raised up at this second resurrection are those who will be judged at the great white throne judgment and thrown into the lake of fire. They will experience the second death. They will be no more. There will be no chance of salvation for them.
Bottom line... when we die, we no longer know anything, for we are dead, so it is impossible for us to be saved in 'hell'. That is why it is so important that we live our lives for Christ BEFORE we die. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead (God, the Father) will raise up those who are in Christ when He returns. It is this hope that the Believer eagerly waits for. The moment when we are transformed from mortal beings into immortal beings... from corruptible to incorruptible. Halleluyah that Jesus served as our example in every way and is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
That's like asking why a dead person can't be cured of cancer. It can't happen. The "cure" is offered before death!
After death comes judgment. Hades is the destination of a person that was never saved by the blood of Jesus. There is no getting out. The Great white throne is where all lost souls will go to be judged and then sent to Hades. No saved Christian will ever see the Great white throne, it is reserved for those who were never saved. Hades will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire on that final day.
We are born physically into the world but we are spiritually dead (separated from God at birth) because of sin. We have to be spiritually born (2nd birth) otherwise we will not see Heaven. Born again literally means "born from above." Nicodemus needed a change of his heart, a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes. When a person is saved, they have been born again, spiritually renewed, and are now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be "born again" spiritually. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!"
If someone is never made spiritually alive in Christ before they die then they rejected the only way by which they could be saved. They will spend eternity lost in eternal darkness.
After death comes judgment. Hades is the destination of a person that was never saved by the blood of Jesus. There is no getting out. The Great white throne is where all lost souls will go to be judged and then sent to Hades. No saved Christian will ever see the Great white throne, it is reserved for those who were never saved. Hades will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire on that final day.
We are born physically into the world but we are spiritually dead (separated from God at birth) because of sin. We have to be spiritually born (2nd birth) otherwise we will not see Heaven. Born again literally means "born from above." Nicodemus needed a change of his heart, a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes. When a person is saved, they have been born again, spiritually renewed, and are now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be "born again" spiritually. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!"
If someone is never made spiritually alive in Christ before they die then they rejected the only way by which they could be saved. They will spend eternity lost in eternal darkness.
To quote Trax, here is the scripture for that one....
Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it"
There are many on that wrong road, which leads to hell. The way of the world is the most popular way, but it's the wrong way.
As for the scripture you posted, it is talking of the tribulation saints, those who will go through the great tribulation and be saved during it. The church has already gone before this takes place. Verse 14 says: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation". As scripture states, there will be some saved during this time. You have until your last breath to be saved, but you never know when that last breath will be. Get hit by a bus and it's all over. No second chance if you're not saved.
Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it"
There are many on that wrong road, which leads to hell. The way of the world is the most popular way, but it's the wrong way.
As for the scripture you posted, it is talking of the tribulation saints, those who will go through the great tribulation and be saved during it. The church has already gone before this takes place. Verse 14 says: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation". As scripture states, there will be some saved during this time. You have until your last breath to be saved, but you never know when that last breath will be. Get hit by a bus and it's all over. No second chance if you're not saved.
If this were true then everyone in the world would choose Christ. They can't because they are in a sinful state of rebellion, spiritually dead. God chooses us. It's God that draws us. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, brings them to repentance, opens their eyes to their sin and opens their hearts to receive His grace. Until a person is convicted they remain in darkness, living a sinful life like the rest of the unbelieving world.
John 6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him"
John 15:16: "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you"
Ephesians 1:4: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
John 6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him"
John 15:16: "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you"
Ephesians 1:4: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
Hell of the Old Testament is translated as Sheol. I think there is a bit of confusion about it.
Sheol is abode of disembodied spirits. It is split into two sections: Hades and Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom)
Hades is a place where wicked await for Judgement day. In that sense Hades is like a Prison
Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom) is a place where good people like Abraham or Solomon used to go to
When a wicked person dies he goes to Hades
Well….. quite a few Christians believe that when Jesus died on the cross he went to Hades for three days to preach to the wicked. Here is that passage
1 Pet 3:18, 19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So some wicked in Hades could have heard the gospel and believe in Jesus and become born again and get saved
And people mistakenly lump "the kingdom of Elohim", "heaven proper" and "paradise" all into one clump of "afterlife", when they are 3 distinctly different things.
To "enter the kingdom of heaven", does not mean to die physically and be resurrected into some spirit world with wings and harps.
But preachers have presented it as such, and so every time we hear or read "kingdom of heaven" we think future and afterlife only.
But Jesus said it is at hand. Meaning within reach.
And we are also mistakenly taught that when we die we might "go to heaven", but there is no such promise that we will enter "heaven proper", as a matter of fact, only a few have been taken up to "heaven proper", and they were people like Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. Epic and elite chosen people.
Likewise we are mis-taught that we are saved solely from a future "hell", instead of saved from the things in general that cause us to cry out for salvation in the first place.
People don't care about being saved from the revisitation of their sins, because they are obsessed with earning enough stars to "get out of hell", and thus require themselves to justify a false idea of salvation, by looking for wicked people to exalt themselves over.
Because they are not saved from hell or any other thing, they have no rest, day or night, trying to buy or sell their soul which has already been paid for. They have "me, me, me" in the front most thinking part of their brain, right between the right (giving) and left (receiving) eye.
Our concept of salvation is abominably self centered, instead of other-person centered.
To "enter the kingdom of heaven", does not mean to die physically and be resurrected into some spirit world with wings and harps.
But preachers have presented it as such, and so every time we hear or read "kingdom of heaven" we think future and afterlife only.
But Jesus said it is at hand. Meaning within reach.
And we are also mistakenly taught that when we die we might "go to heaven", but there is no such promise that we will enter "heaven proper", as a matter of fact, only a few have been taken up to "heaven proper", and they were people like Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. Epic and elite chosen people.
Likewise we are mis-taught that we are saved solely from a future "hell", instead of saved from the things in general that cause us to cry out for salvation in the first place.
People don't care about being saved from the revisitation of their sins, because they are obsessed with earning enough stars to "get out of hell", and thus require themselves to justify a false idea of salvation, by looking for wicked people to exalt themselves over.
Because they are not saved from hell or any other thing, they have no rest, day or night, trying to buy or sell their soul which has already been paid for. They have "me, me, me" in the front most thinking part of their brain, right between the right (giving) and left (receiving) eye.
Our concept of salvation is abominably self centered, instead of other-person centered.
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HELL is the imaginations of the False Church in Rome.
To find out what is right you have to understand what the Jews believed and then read what Jesus said. Start with the writings of the first century Levite, Josephus:
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm
But this only tells us what the Jews believe and Josephus is definitely not a Saint or Prophet. I certainly wouldn't believe everything Josephus says but I would believe the parts that Jesus endorsed.
Finally read the story Jesus taught of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16
To find out what is right you have to understand what the Jews believed and then read what Jesus said. Start with the writings of the first century Levite, Josephus:
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm
But this only tells us what the Jews believe and Josephus is definitely not a Saint or Prophet. I certainly wouldn't believe everything Josephus says but I would believe the parts that Jesus endorsed.
Finally read the story Jesus taught of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16
This is a case of trying to base a whole theology on one scripture or so.
The bible is clear that there will be people that go to hell. It is also clear that there will be people who go to heaven.
now lets look at the verse in question.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
If we were to base our theology on this verse alone one would conclude that no one will be saved. why?
It says that death passed to "all" men because "all" have sinned.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
here it says many which is not all.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
here the gift is for all. A gift must be accepted thus while all have the gift offered. all may not take it.
here is the point. Paul is clear that sin passed to all and thus death to all. Also that the Gift of Jesus is offered to all. but nowhere does it say all will be saved. In fact he bible is clear that not all will be saved.
The bible is clear that there will be people that go to hell. It is also clear that there will be people who go to heaven.
now lets look at the verse in question.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
If we were to base our theology on this verse alone one would conclude that no one will be saved. why?
It says that death passed to "all" men because "all" have sinned.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
here it says many which is not all.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
here the gift is for all. A gift must be accepted thus while all have the gift offered. all may not take it.
here is the point. Paul is clear that sin passed to all and thus death to all. Also that the Gift of Jesus is offered to all. but nowhere does it say all will be saved. In fact he bible is clear that not all will be saved.
D
1 Pet 3:18, 19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I find it difficult to conclude from the above verses that Jesus went down into 'hell' and preached to spirits in prison there after He died on the cross. He was put to death in the flesh and quickened or made alive by the Spirit. The verse goes on to say that it is this same Spirit (God's Holy Spirit of Truth) that had come down and pleaded with the wicked men of the days of Noah while Noah was preparing the ark. Unfortunately, only eight souls were saved, Noah and his family. God's Spirit was pleading with men who were yet alive on the earth in the days of Noah, hoping that they would repent and turn away from their disobedience that they might be saved and not be destroyed. Their spirits were in prison. They were enslaved to sin. They were prisoners of disobedience. His Spirit pleads with us while we are alive, for once we die, we no longer have any knowledge of life. The next moment we will be aware of is the resurrection, whether it is the first resurrection of the saints or the second resurrection of the wicked.
I find it difficult to conclude from the above verses that Jesus went down into 'hell' and preached to spirits in prison there after He died on the cross. He was put to death in the flesh and quickened or made alive by the Spirit. The verse goes on to say that it is this same Spirit (God's Holy Spirit of Truth) that had come down and pleaded with the wicked men of the days of Noah while Noah was preparing the ark. Unfortunately, only eight souls were saved, Noah and his family. God's Spirit was pleading with men who were yet alive on the earth in the days of Noah, hoping that they would repent and turn away from their disobedience that they might be saved and not be destroyed. Their spirits were in prison. They were enslaved to sin. They were prisoners of disobedience. His Spirit pleads with us while we are alive, for once we die, we no longer have any knowledge of life. The next moment we will be aware of is the resurrection, whether it is the first resurrection of the saints or the second resurrection of the wicked.
Not for me personally. I base this "theology" on a prayer that I finally got tired of being scared to make.
It went something like "Father, I have struggled with this hell concept all of my life, and I do not understand how people were created with a foreknowledge of their doom. Won't you fix everyone, seeing that you are able? I will give my life in service of such a will."
Make of it what you will, but the indescribable "voice" from "heaven" that replied was "Fear nothing! I will do this!"
With such authority and peace, that I dare questioned no more on the matter, as I had just been properly baptized with fire (a witness to my own wrongs), water (relief), and the Set Apart Spirit, in the name, the cause, the essence, the very "witness" of Yeshua ("Salvation!").
I then began to read the entire bible as if God wants to destroy the evil part of each man, starting with me, rather than to destroy the evil man himself and somehow deem me good.
In effect, I am reading a different story than I was taught, one that turns otherwise forgotten and "fluffy" stories in the bible into hardcore mirrors of what the "bigger" stories and the prophets say.
The story continues to repeat to this day.
And some of them get pretty precise and hard hitting, when compared to modern times.
People are searching symbols for enemies, when the symbols represent their enemies within.
An example I used earlier today with someone:
Making and worshiping a golden calf, is to single out the sacrifice and burden aspect of YHWH and worship that single aspect as an idol or false god, instead of the entire YHWH. This was their response to Him saving them and leading them out of Egypt (slavery). And that sounds undeniably familiar to what's happening today. "Non-prophetic" stories are indeed also prophetic.
Sure, by all means, we must praise Him because of what He did, but is he a lifeguard or a daddy that I can talk to in my normal, trying to grow up, childlike voice?
It would be like having a best friend who only liked you because you were an awesome lifeguard, instead of liking you because you love each other and have true communion.
Making children to pass through the fire to Moloch (going by historical detailed account), perfectly matches the description of heaven and hell that my great-grandma gave me when I was a child.
Parents required to put their children in a fire in order to please a god who required that loud praise music be played to conceal the cries of the burning children, while the parents were forbidden to shed a tear.
If the parent's cried, the sacrifice was nullified. And we're talking about an abomination that God's chosen people took part in, that He said never even would have came to His mind.
When this was revealed to me, I instantly had a flashback to that moment when she told me about heaven and hell, that the bad people burn forever in hell, and the good people live forever with God and play music and never feel sad. And I felt the shudder in my current time and body as though I were back in my body feeling it again at that very moment as a previously innocent child that thought God's entirety is that he brings babies to our pet rabbits in the night and takes dead people to a better place. A fearful and shocking memory that was almost bodily. A deadly memory with nothing but death at the end of it's fantasy. Myself, required to be happy, while my uncle Johnny and others burned forever.
As far as the "goat and sheep", "left and right", separation issue...
Being simply the separation between those who were changed by following Jesus, vs. those who were changed by the punishment. Those who weren't exposed to Jesus, or exposed improperly, being judged based on the works of their heart and making the best out of their particular circumstances, in order to determine if they actually did follow Jesus without even knowing about Him. Because their sins were forgiven.
You see, I have this very serious problem with the descriptions of the punishment contradicting themselves when interpreted with tradition. Is it fire or is it worms? Is it destruction or is it shame? Is punishment without correction still considered punishment, if evil is destroyed, how will the people in eternal torment be able to continue to blaspheme, Etc.
The only way out of such a thing with tradition is to lump it all into the word hell and then say that it's too "high" to really understand and brush it off as "well, it's as bad as you can imagine and goes on forever."
To make such things coexist takes more imagination I believe, than to imagine that it simply applies to my "bad side" instead of my enemies, who I am instructed by YHWH Himself, to love, in the name of "Salvation."
Which is exactly what I was doing, to the point of soaking my pillow, when I made that prayer, my friend.
KJV did a terrible job with the words "eternity" and "forever."
Seeing this quickly trampled many other graven images.
Love them all.
The messenger of YHWH goes before us.
Peace.
It went something like "Father, I have struggled with this hell concept all of my life, and I do not understand how people were created with a foreknowledge of their doom. Won't you fix everyone, seeing that you are able? I will give my life in service of such a will."
Make of it what you will, but the indescribable "voice" from "heaven" that replied was "Fear nothing! I will do this!"
With such authority and peace, that I dare questioned no more on the matter, as I had just been properly baptized with fire (a witness to my own wrongs), water (relief), and the Set Apart Spirit, in the name, the cause, the essence, the very "witness" of Yeshua ("Salvation!").
I then began to read the entire bible as if God wants to destroy the evil part of each man, starting with me, rather than to destroy the evil man himself and somehow deem me good.
In effect, I am reading a different story than I was taught, one that turns otherwise forgotten and "fluffy" stories in the bible into hardcore mirrors of what the "bigger" stories and the prophets say.
The story continues to repeat to this day.
And some of them get pretty precise and hard hitting, when compared to modern times.
People are searching symbols for enemies, when the symbols represent their enemies within.
An example I used earlier today with someone:
Making and worshiping a golden calf, is to single out the sacrifice and burden aspect of YHWH and worship that single aspect as an idol or false god, instead of the entire YHWH. This was their response to Him saving them and leading them out of Egypt (slavery). And that sounds undeniably familiar to what's happening today. "Non-prophetic" stories are indeed also prophetic.
Sure, by all means, we must praise Him because of what He did, but is he a lifeguard or a daddy that I can talk to in my normal, trying to grow up, childlike voice?
It would be like having a best friend who only liked you because you were an awesome lifeguard, instead of liking you because you love each other and have true communion.
Making children to pass through the fire to Moloch (going by historical detailed account), perfectly matches the description of heaven and hell that my great-grandma gave me when I was a child.
Parents required to put their children in a fire in order to please a god who required that loud praise music be played to conceal the cries of the burning children, while the parents were forbidden to shed a tear.
If the parent's cried, the sacrifice was nullified. And we're talking about an abomination that God's chosen people took part in, that He said never even would have came to His mind.
When this was revealed to me, I instantly had a flashback to that moment when she told me about heaven and hell, that the bad people burn forever in hell, and the good people live forever with God and play music and never feel sad. And I felt the shudder in my current time and body as though I were back in my body feeling it again at that very moment as a previously innocent child that thought God's entirety is that he brings babies to our pet rabbits in the night and takes dead people to a better place. A fearful and shocking memory that was almost bodily. A deadly memory with nothing but death at the end of it's fantasy. Myself, required to be happy, while my uncle Johnny and others burned forever.
As far as the "goat and sheep", "left and right", separation issue...
Being simply the separation between those who were changed by following Jesus, vs. those who were changed by the punishment. Those who weren't exposed to Jesus, or exposed improperly, being judged based on the works of their heart and making the best out of their particular circumstances, in order to determine if they actually did follow Jesus without even knowing about Him. Because their sins were forgiven.
You see, I have this very serious problem with the descriptions of the punishment contradicting themselves when interpreted with tradition. Is it fire or is it worms? Is it destruction or is it shame? Is punishment without correction still considered punishment, if evil is destroyed, how will the people in eternal torment be able to continue to blaspheme, Etc.
The only way out of such a thing with tradition is to lump it all into the word hell and then say that it's too "high" to really understand and brush it off as "well, it's as bad as you can imagine and goes on forever."
To make such things coexist takes more imagination I believe, than to imagine that it simply applies to my "bad side" instead of my enemies, who I am instructed by YHWH Himself, to love, in the name of "Salvation."
Which is exactly what I was doing, to the point of soaking my pillow, when I made that prayer, my friend.
KJV did a terrible job with the words "eternity" and "forever."
Seeing this quickly trampled many other graven images.
Love them all.
The messenger of YHWH goes before us.
Peace.
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