Charismatic pro or con

kenisyes · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

The next verses in Ephesians define the perfection. I do not see that as the condition of the church today.

Have you ever received delivery of a package you did not wish to open? If someone warns you it may be a bomb for example...and that's what the RC church did to the faith of its people. Many of the "saints" described in Jude may have stayed away from the church, and taken their faith to their monasteries or their homes. The use of tongues and prophecy by them would never have been recorded. The mystics and ecstatics are the ones who made enough noise to get a complaint that the RC administration needed to investigate (this is how the RC still handles Mary apparitions and healing to this day). The passage of the RC law in the 900's that all tongues are to be assumed of Satan is proof they were still seeing someone do glossolalia.

If the tongues of Corinthians was known Gentile languages, why does Paul say they cannot be understood? Why not just say what Luther said, that worship should be in the language with which the people attending were most familiar. Why link them with prophecy, and how do they build up the individual?

I agree that "proclaim the gospel" refers to learning the various languages of the world. I have heard some say that the languages were learned instantaneously; that the evangelists just prayed in tongues, and the people understood. I doubt it, at least not very often. I mean, what would they do when someone had a question?

I was going to quote Bob Dylan for you, "The Times They Are a-Changing'": "Come poets and authors who prophesy with your pens..." He must have meant the word differently than Paul used it?

We can look at glossolalia. I believe what happens today is identical to what happened in Corinth. Mostly nonsense syllables, occasionally inspiring an "interpretation", and occasionally someone knows them as his childhood language.

OFM · Dec 8, 2012

I am a charismatic Christian..

kenisyes · Dec 8, 2012

OFM said:

Has this fact helped to increase your enthusiasm for Kingdom activity? Your bio certainly lists a lot. I have known several who have followed such a path. I mentioned the fact in a previous thread. "By their fruits you will know them" is a good Scripture to prove that the experience is valid.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

kenisyes said:

well, i would agree concerning all ppl who profess a jesus. even the cults profess 'a jesus' << satan's brother, etc.

or even among those who make the same divinely given/revealed professions as peter about The True Jesus, The Son of the living God - there is disunity. why?

because of not holding to sound doctrine, not heeding the apostolic instructions - splashing around in Latter Rain; floating in the River; being carried along by The Third Wave; soaking the glory; and so on.

that doesn't mean those who hold to (through the ages have held to) the doctines/teachings (inspired God breathed words) delivered to us once for all are not /were not/did not grow up in maturity and completion.

it shouldn't be so complicated. it's not easy stopping sin; or doing 180s...but as Still has said - all this other stuff is distraction and confusion. what do we need it for?

even those who eventually just climb out of The River, stop soaking and doing all the mystic stuff testify they just return to the simplicity of the Gospel. it's there they find their bearings again. and that's exactly what the scriptures say we should do. look back, back to the old Ways, look back and see what He has already said and done. Trust in that and only minimally trust in our subjective experiences

Matthew
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rockb I will build my church, and the gates of hellc shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedd in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

it doesn't matter to me if RCC wants to say peter established the RCC.
it's his profession and his writings in my Bible that i care about.

kenisyes said:

yes....the TO thing.

kenisyes said:

no one warned me. i found out after it was a bomb.
i survived to tell the story

as for RCC....i know but it's been a long time since Luther.
what's our excuse now?

or do we think Luther suppressed the gifts? the christian faith survived the RCC, and i believe there are lots of saved ppl in RCC...how it is we can look back to actual history when we need to , then say history doesn't matter? not saying you're saying that - just that history shows an actual, real, cessation of the accompanying miraculous signs gifts which always confirmed the message and the messenger.

Feedm3 is doing some interesting studies on that. i agree with his studies.

no.....they served their purpose - to confirm the message being delivered.
done...finished. we read about it.

kenisyes said:

see, this is pure speculation, and can be dangerous.
if it wasn't recorded, what do i need it for?

if it was needed for every good work and salvation it would be recorded.

kenisyes said:

i know but i don't buy into any of that. none of it. it has nothing to do with me.
the marian stuff is occult. don't you think so?

we can discuss RC doctrine i you like. it prolly has relevence in the end.
particularly in the drive for ecumenism << which may be the unity you're aiming for.

kenisyes said:

well....hmmm...i kinda agree.

kenisyes said:

well, if God miraculously caused a portion of your church to suddenly start speaking known human languages they never knew or learned (proclaiming in them the wonderful works of God) -

a) they'd be surprised and amazed

b) most wouldn't understand each other - unless there were some who received multiple languages, or a gift of interpreting those languages to the others; and ppl could interpret Mandarin to another in English and they could confirm they had gotten the same message, then they could be understood.
c) if the person who could interpret wasn't there, they should just hold on and be quiet with it, knowing between them and the Lord what the message was...wait for someone to intrepret it - for the other ppl.

they were being equipped to take the Gospel to the nations. they didn't have full revelation yet. God was still revealing apostolic instruction. we have it now.

kenisyes said:

yay Luther

kenisyes said:

because receiving prophecy was the same time and gift and purpose they all got their gifts - for founding the NT church and recording the new doctrines. the completely revealed will of God.

they build up the individual because he had received revelation from God that was new or confirming something, but in a language (known human gentile language - not Hebrew)...maybe no one else there understood the Spanish, but the person who received it did - from God and he and God knew the message and it edified the man. naturally it would.

kenisyes said:

i think that's exactly what happened.
if they had a question, eventually it would be answered by the apostles or council at jerusalem.
that's what we see happening - exactly.
Paul writing corrective letters.

just like 2 letters to the Thessalonians. they had concerns and he addressed them.
they learned new information (mysteries), that paul was given. now we know them too, so they are not mysteries.

kenisyes said:

haha.
i reckon.
Bob has a lot to say. nothing that can save my soul though.

and he was part of a very bad turn for the world - the 60s. i dunno if he was a bad guy directly involved or not. i don't think so. seen him live 6 times...the old me

i love his music. but the culture changers (Frankfort school, Ginsburg etc) really worked us over. we didn't need that revolution. it hurt me very badly....i was born in 1959. they took the Lord's Prayer out of our schools about 1968. things went downhill really really quickly.

kenisyes said:

okay. we disagree

i'll look for a teaching from you on it.

~

love you Ken. i enjoy our discussion, as you know.
zone

ps - forgive typos...i'm in a hurry kind of....back later z

kenisyes · Dec 8, 2012

zone said:

1. Your argument is that prophecy has stopped because the Body has reached maturity. If I see immaturity, I am looking in the wrong place, right? The true body is the people who have held to sound doctrine, and you offer Pentecostalism as a big example of unsound doctrine? My problem with that is that for 400 years before Pentecostalism was heard of, the Catholics said all Protestants are going to hell, and many Protestants who held sound doctrine, said the Catholics are going to hell. The situation was just as bad before Pentecostalism occurred. So you will answer, of course the RC said that; they do not hold to sound doctrine. Okay, but Jesus says no one who comes to me will I ever reject. Sound doctrine or not sound doctrine, the RC does want Jesus. I know tons of RC members who believe their church will get them to Jesus; they stay because they want Jesus, and they are just wrong about how to get to Him completely. Jesus will not reject them (He promised). They are part of His Body because He accepts them. You cannot argue they are not part of His Body until they accept sound doctrine, because they are saying exactly the same thing about you. If He permits this state (and has now for 500 years), many are dying never having heard sound doctrine. Jesus cannot reject them and make them go to hell through no fault of their own. As long as Jesus accepts people without sound doctrine, the only visible Body on earth is in disorder, and thus prophecy must continue by Eph 4:13.

And I don't care either what the RC teaches about Peter. The disunity and the aggressiveness about the disunity is what I am talking about, and also the lack of maturity on the part of many pastors and bishops I have known, across denominations. Immaturity in Chiristians occurs in all denominations, in approximately the same percentage, and occurs in the leadership of every denomination I have been involved with (and that's a lot) in about the same percentage. It's pretty hard to tell who has the sound doctrine, when every denomination has the same percentage of immaturity.

2. You need to define "old ways". Prophecy is as old as the OT, and was in Corinth. It is an old way, yet you do not feel they need to look to prophecy. But I do agree that we cannot trust our subjective experiences.

3. Are you serious about actually having received a bomb in the mail?

4. There is no excuse for not having the gifts, unless you believe we don't. I can point to specific dates in restoration of pieces, each needed for the next. First and second great awakenings you know. Finney 1826 taught personal relationship with Jesus. Azusa St. restored awareness of the gifts (building on Finney at Bethel Bible college), which many churches did not accept. RC Renewal 1970-ish publicized the gifts around the world. 1980-ish the gifts raised up non-denom churches, 2000 AD til now, home churches. The goal is restoration of prayer groups in place of services. What all the early Christians did until the RC church intervened in 96 AD, I think, banning spontaneous Eucharistic prayers, and again in the next century, suppressing the prayer meeting service for the spectator service that we now all know. (This was not the RC church by name at the time, but RC history lists this as the beginning of the "mass".) I am told Luther wrote in the large Catechism that services would be replaced by the prayer meeting thing within a generation after he died. So even he thought this was God's plan. In other words, the gifts are part of the process of the restoration of the priesthood of the individual, so we can have a Bride that can help rule in the 1000 year reign, and not just a collection of congregations. There's a question for you: do cessationsits believe that the prayer meeting style meetings of Corinthians have also been permanently replaced by spectator services?

5. Questions about what happened after 100AD cannot be answered by Scripture. If you argue for cessation, and I argue that it was cessation only in the church meetings, I need to look at history to see if I am right: Were there gifts anywhere else? The "statement" they would never have been recorded is a statement of who got to write the books (the RC church) and keep out whatever they did not like. They had no interest in recording any event that did not help the Pope to maintain his power, and they had no interest in what would help the salvation of a Protestant like you, who was "going to hell" anyway. I've said before, I learned as a matter of RC doctrine, that God has done the same number of miracles at all times in history, and they have history they have collected (Lives of Saints) to prove it. They would not have recorded things they did not like. You're right, that's speculation, but so is the opposite claim, that none existed, and that the "mystics" and "saints" stories are all made up or misunderstood somehow.

6. Yes, I think most of the miracles are either soul power, misunderstandings, and occasionally downright demonic manifestation. I don't think RC doctrine is important to us, except to prove that they saw certain manifestations of something like certain gifts at certain times.

7. So you believe someone in Corinth was speaking Japanese, someone was speaking Bantu, another was speaking pre-Dutch, etc., and they just didn't know what these languages were? I Cor. 14:2 disagrees, "for no man understands him". He only builds up himself (vs. 4). Why no mention of the potential for evangelization, where he would build up others? Why talk of "tongues of angels" (this is God inspiring Scripture, remember. He knew the difference, even if Paul did not.) It still would have been simpler to just say, "everybody pray in Greek", and not give all these details. And how can such tongues cease (13:8)? We still need them today to reach South Sea Islanders for instance. Of course, we learn them in school now, but they are not silent, and will not be as long as earth remains. When we build churches there, we have to speak the language to keep them in the denomination.

8. I didn't mean that. I meant, if by a gift of the Holy Spirit, I preached to the Bantus about Jesus, and they stopped me to inquire what was Jesus' earthly occupation, I would not understand the question. I would be gifted to say "carpenter", but not to know what was being asked. How would I even know if Satan was interfering and giving them a counterfeit message? I would need the gift of interpretation also, and it's pretty clear that most tongue speakers did not have that. Paul would have had to write, everyone practice your tongue with an interpreter. He was certainly afraid prophets could make a mistake, yet he makes no such rule for tongues, though Paul uses them "more than all of you", obviously in private.

9. I think it's a simple semi-linguistic variation on Rom. 8:26, groanings which cannot be uttered. Like middle ground between that and mentally-directed prayer. I've seen tongues work this way, like a step in making the unspeakable revelation able to be put into English shortly later. It's like a pastor in India I know, who was told by God to click on a hyperlink. That was 10 years ago. The Americans he met are half of his ministry now, as they spend half the year with him planting churches and orphanages, and half in America raising money for his work. He took a risk on something for which there was no reason. Taking a risk on letting nonsense come out is the same kind of risk. You evaluate it after it comes out, just like we are told to do with prophecy. (14:29) You and I differ only in what we have seen of the results of such risks.

Abiding · Dec 8, 2012

I see all this and more from what i read as the benefit of tongues and prophecy...minus the tongues and prophecy.

zone · Dec 8, 2012

hi Ken

Originally Posted by zone
well, i would agree concerning all ppl who profess a jesus. even the cults profess 'a jesus' << satan's brother, etc.

1. or even among those who make the same divinely given/revealed professions as peter about The True Jesus, The Son of the living God - there is disunity. why?
because of not holding to sound doctrine, not heeding the apostolic instructions - splashing around in Latter Rain; floating in the River; being carried along by The Third Wave; soaking the glory; and so on.
that doesn't mean those who hold to (through the ages have held to) the doctines/teachings (inspired God breathed words) delivered to us once for all are not /were not/did not grow up in maturity and completion.

it shouldn't be so complicated. it's not easy stopping sin; or doing 180s...but as Still has said - all this other stuff is distraction and confusion. what do we need it for?

kenisyes said:

no, that's not exactly what i meant. i meant that when the fully completed revealed Plan and Will of God, everything need for salvation and sanctification was complete, the gifts ended.

every prophecy we need is recorded >> that which is fully complete has come - the God breathed inspired sacred writings which are able to make us wise unto salvation and equip us for every good work. so the fully complete revealed will of God is finished and recorded. paul told timothy holding fast to those instructions are everything he needed. if it's enough for timothy and 2000 years of christianity, it's enough for me.

there's not a single prophesy being given today that adds one thing to God's Word. nothing. it's finished.

so the gift of prophecy (in the strictest sense, let's say - authoritative doctrine/teaching - "Thus saith The LORD, The Spirit speaketh expressly, etc) is not needed. nor should it be looked for.

if we are looking for continuing revelation - who is acutally getting it? where is it? what is The LORD saying now? who did He say it to? what does it have to do with salvation and the Plan? nothing.

what ppl call prophecy today is either personal words from one to another or within a small group or ppl's writings on the net or in books...yet not one letter can be added to the Bible - can it?

should it be?

kenisyes said:

um...maybe.
i know i see lots of immaturity in charismatic stuff.
because there's no grounding. it's all over the place and full of contradictions and chaos. i know you say your group isn't, but we do agree it's there.

what do we do when we see immaturity?
example (even one word from that list):

2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

artios: fitted, complete
Original Word: ἄρτιος, ια, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: artios
Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee-os)
Short Definition: perfect, complete
Definition: perfect, complete, fitted, ready.

739 ártios (from 737 /árti, "now," viewed in terms of the present, i.e. "the here-and-now") – properly, ready now, prepared to function (efficiently) in the immediate present.

739 /ártios ("ready-because-prepared") is only used in 2 Tim 3:17, "So that the man of God may be adequate (739 /ártios), equipped for every good work" (NASU).

kenisyes said:

kind of...yes.
it would be so, because there's always something NEW.

kenisyes said:

okay...but that's another topic, isn't it?
like, can we really say someone who believes in a jesus that is not God; or didn't come in the flesh; or whose brother is satan; or who didn't rise from dead; etc - have actually been born from above? maybe...but they should be leaving that teaching a.s.a.p., right?

the differences in teachings between RC and what came after is really another discussion for me - why? because we all have access to the scriptures ourselves now. i know you feel perhaps what we have is not what God planned, or ppl added or took things away....there's nothing i can do about that, and there's zero chance i'm going into gnostic gospels and whatnot unless it's for research....no chance i'm adding them or any modern prophets words to the Bible i have. not happening.

why? because the Bible(s) KJV, ESV etc were sufficient to make me wise unto salvation, and they continue to equip me to keep pushing the old man into the grave where he belongs, and to increase my love and devotion to Jesus Christ Our Lord

plus i'm scared of Rev 22 - a lot.

i'm not shy about or afraid of examining any other material on earth, ever. i'll read it. that's part of discerning.

but it's not scripture.

kenisyes said:

no Ken, in another post i said i believe there are many ppl in all denoms that are saved.
it's not about believing 'exactly' the same as 'me'.
it's what do the scriptures say?

mine don't say anything about Jesus being satan's brother; nothing about purgatory, and so on.
so it's not hard to reject that as false doctrine. if ppl i n RCC or other aren't paying attention to that stuff, if it doesn't send them into a ditch, great!

kenisyes said:

Ken, i'm arguing FOR the simplicity of the Gospel < sound doctrine of the Gospel and growing from there.
for it. for salvation for all who believe.

that's in the scriptures. not modern prophets and apostles powers and stuff.
what is all that stuff FOR? that's what i don't get. it is not, by any means making the church more mature. not at all. falling out; passing out; soaking; what's it for?

it's mysticism. i don't need it

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions...

why is doctrine a bad word?

maybe we'll call it sound teaching.

kenisyes said:

okay....but on what ground do we unify, Ken?
are there false christs and false prophets?
can they hurt us?

how will we know them? by their fruits, i know....is that strictly by their behavior? by their clothes? by the size of their group? there's a New Age christ...he's not Our Christ. when do stop unifying? i don't want to be assimilated into the Borg.

i want the church of Christ. the True Christ who has Come in the flesh and revealed the Will of God and Accomplished our salvation.

we don't need to worship with ppl who have some other christ - they need the Gospel. right?

what is the Gospel?

kenisyes said:

okay. my experience is very different

*whew*

cont....

zone · Dec 8, 2012

kenisyes said:

what possible good would it do the early church, or us as a body to utter nonsense syllables?
this is just beyond my comprehension.
i mean, i've researched the movement(s)....i.e: 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave. azusa..all that.

now what do we have?

The Five-Fold Ministry and the NAR.
this is the Latter Rain stuff, the new breed.

i know the proof texts for it - they're wrong.

anyways....what good would it do the early church, or us as a body to utter nonsense syllables? no clue.
does the Bible say anything about that?

kenisyes · Dec 9, 2012

I will be scrupulous about answering in order since there are two posts here.

Eph. 4:13 does not say prophecy will last until we have everything we need. It says it will last until the Body reaches perfection. This difference implies prophecy can still help us appropriate what has been revealed, just as do teachers and pastors. Your argument is that the gifts ended because revelation was complete. Scripture says prophecy will last until the accomodation of revelation is complete.

You are saying that because Scripture is profitable for correction, teaching, and reproof, we do not need prophecy. First "profitable" is different from "sufficient" and even if Scripture alone is "sufficient", why does that mean God will only provide one tool? The verse "every case stands on two or three witnesses" can be used here. But it does not need to be inovoked. You are saying that God has provided one tool, so He will not provide a second. That is not proved from any Scripture; God generally provides more that He needs of anything, like Abraham needed to father only Isaac, but he fathered like 6 other children, all who became fathers of nations.

Cessationists often believe that prophecy is used to get new revelation. I have never heard such a prophecy. I have heard prophecies that applied the revelation we have to the present time. I cannot find the name "Ken Behrens" in scripture, or the word "Internet". If I do not hear from God that I am to be a member of Christian Chat, I do not know if I am to come just from Scripture alone. God told me to come here, if I want to be involved in Christianity to the extent I am. He told me go on Internet, look at chat sites, and told me this was the one. He told me to talk to you. I checked it first and it is Scriptural, for example Heb. 10:25, assemble yourselves together and exhort one another. That's what we do here. Now, if I follow your argument, I must conclude that because I am here on the word of God to me, rather than on my common sense applied to Scripture, our entire conversation is new, therefore potentially against the command in Rev. 22, and I am in sin posting this to you. Now you will answer that you are here because you applied common sense to similar Scriptures. That's fine, and I'm glad you're here, and that we are having this conversation. I don't despise how you got here, but you believe how I got here is wrong.

I see nothing NEW, only a return to accepting things done by the early church that we had previously rejected. I already mentioned Eccl. 1:9-10 in this regard.

I offer the ongoing disagreement between Catholics and Protestants as proof of the imperfection of the Body. Both go to Scriptures to prove the other wrong, but they read them differently. Catholics say Scripture in the light of tradition, Protestants say Scripture only, The problem is they are still fighting over it, although at least the killing in Ireland and England has stopped now. For purposes of seeing if there is immaturity in the Body, it doesn't matter who's right, it matters who is still fighting over it.

I go to non-Scripture sources only to get an idea of what Scripture might be trying to say that I might have missed.

Speaking of Revelation, 11:3 proves prophecy will be restored to at least two people.

Just because you don't need it, why deny it to somebody else? I'm about as sick as I can be about hearing the same sermons over and over and singing the same hymns (I've ministered music in 8600+ services), but I don't say we should stop doing it if it blesses some people. [I only say it's not meeting all the needs if we do only that.]

One cannot argue with experience, and you say yours is different than mine. Great, I'm glad you found a place you are at peace. But my experience is closer to most people. In America less than 16% of people are in church on a given Sunday, down from 50%+ in the 1950's, and many of those are church hopping. Even most Catholics claim they disagree with their Church on matters of doctrine that officially make them "in mortal sin". The numbers certainly reflect people not being at peace with where they are. I hesitate to preach to anyone, because if I get them saved, I have nowhere I can send them. And of course, you're right, it's because of lack of sound doctrine. But the only remedy is that I decide, for myself, who is right, because they are all fighting, and at that point, I have created something new (the Ken Behrens denomination) anyway, and now I'm qualified to fight with all of them.

We could unite around "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" It was enough for Paul (I cor. 2:2), but here we are back to the Corinthians, the group with all the problems, all the questions, all the divisions, and all the gifts that got those three chapters written causing all the discussion here.

Nonsense syllables: Paul says tongues builds up the individual (I Cor. 14:4). That's what good it does. Because you see no good to nonsense syllables, you conclude tongues cannot be that. But Scripture disagrees. In Acts 2, it says twice, "we heard them all speaking our own dialect", but some heard them drunk. Paul says "no man understands", not "only one with that dialect understands". Paul says "someone unlearned or an unbeliever would think they are mad". But then "tongues are a sign for unbelievers". The only way to account for the different responses in what they hear, is if these are nonsense syllables, and the hearer sometimes experiences hearing his own language. This also exaplains interpretation: "He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means"; it's in the hearer, not in the speaker.
You ask how it can build up the individual (and I'm not suggesting you personally need this, merely that some will find it useful). First, praying in the Spirit (Rom 8:26) produces intercessions that are groans or sighs, then develop into a language where the sighs can be expressed as sounds, then, we learn to recite rote prayers (like the Lord's prayer), and finally, we learn to pray coherently from our hearts in public. Some learn to say things that motivate others to change the world for God (pastors, spiritual counsellors, evangelists). The second step is necessary and that's what tongues do.
This is how a baby learns to talk: first, they cry, then they recognize that there are formed sounds which they model as gobbledegook, and then, later, they learn that not any sound will do, to get what they want. Somewhere along the way, they learn to repeat little songs and fairy tales. Eventually, they grow up and can talk well enough to negotiate, marry, and name and teach children of their own. It's also how we learn to write: we make scribbles, then try to make words, but spell them wrong. Then, in school, we get the spelling right, copy sentences other people wrote, and eventually write our memoirs, contracts, love letters, even design websites, etc. Some learn to write editorials to the newspaper, and warn of the evils in what the government is proposing. Others learn to write patent proposals and design manufacturing plants that change the world, and that's what Bob Dylan calls prophecy.
If God has made you to write novels, sermons, or contracts, you need more education (English degree, seminary, or Law degree). If God has made you to grow beyond the rote prayers you grew up with, tongues will help you get there.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

kenisyes said:

hi Ken

thanks for your reply. i'm somewhat off-kilter this afternoon

, so point out any errors or inconsistencies in my position, if you see them.

i guess we'll eventually get to ecumenism, which is something involved in our discussion. and what actually determines how one is transferred by God into the true body of Christ.
again, i don't think ppl who have a false gospel or false christ are included.
i hope they will be, they need the Gospel for that

if we present the very same Gospel in the inspired scriptures that brought us to salvation (by the Holy Spirit), we should be using those same scriptures, to proclaim the same gospel to others.

ecumenism between denominations does not necessarily mean the unity paul was talking about - unless....the ecumensism is based on the one faith mentioned. that one faith is the Only True Gospel about the Only True Lord.

the faith that was delivered once for all.

anyway....a few things....:

"Scripture says prophecy will last until the accomodation of revelation is complete."

this part i don't know what you mean. what do you mean by the accomodation of revelation?
some people may not know what the Bible (revelation) says...that doesn't mean we need prophets today.
it means we need to understand what the prophets revealed.

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

9(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?a 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsb and teachers,c 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,d to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

it doesn't say he gave those gifts (offices) until, or so that, or because - when we are in heaven, or 10 minutes before The Lord arrives we will "no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes"

he means that if we continue in what they were given, and gave to us, we will....and should be doing it a.s.a.p.
there's no question there were always issues - that's why we have all those instructions and corrections.

he said if we are "speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way..."
i think that's the point of his writing, just as it was in Corinthians.

so, what is THE TRUTH he mentions?
has it not been delivered?

kenisyes said:

here are the passages i was referring to. i won't highlight anything in them, they speak for themselves. there's nothing about today's Five-Fold Ministry in these.

Timothy says that the scriptures have absolutely everything needed for salvation and sanctification, and to empower us to serve God in every good work.

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.

more instruction for the saved individual...nothing about performing miracles or anything:

Hebrews 13
Sacrifices Pleasing to God
1Let brotherly love continue. 2Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. 4Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. 5Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 6So we can confidently say,

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear;
what can man do to me?”

7Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. 10We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. 11For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. 12So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. 14For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. 19I urge you the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Benediction
20Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

there's that equipping with everything good again...in Timothy he said the scriptures had the power to do that (Holy Spirit, God breathed, Holy Spirit in us, Comforter, Teacher)

kenisyes said:

okay Ken.
but i didn't say God only provided one tool (i assume you mean the scriptures). He also sent the Holy Spirit (God).
He provided us with God breathed scriptures which are able to equip us for everything.
that's what i am saying.
Abiding's thread asked essentially (pp.) what do cessationists lack (pertaining to everything needed for salvation, sanctification, learning, growing and remaining unified)....i wonder this also.

i know He poured out miraculous gifts and performed miracles in the Apostolic age...those were powerful tools (gifts). He founded the church. But He doesn't have to do things the same way. we already discussed how the scriptures only record, through recorded time 3 periods of intense and sustained undeniably earth-shaking and Divinely perfomr mirculous activity - Moses; Elijah & Elisha; Jesus and the Apostles.....adding a new era just like the Apostolic age in 2012 isn't mentioned as in the Plan...anywhere.

kenisyes said:

okay! i didn't know that.
then what do you say about the prophets who claim they're meeting with God or hearing directly from God, and receiving Newly revealed information about His Plan?
that's what i as a cessationist reject entirely.

i'll provide some links to modern prophets who claim God is saying directly to them that He is now, or is planning to DO NEW THINGS. things He never mentioned in scripture.

i'll split this here.

thank you Ken....

love zone

cont.....(as soon as i can)

kenisyes · Dec 9, 2012

What if we find that different parts of the Gospel brought us to Christ. Certainly, Jesus Son of God, crucified, resurrected, ascended, right hand of the Father is in common with everyone, I think. But where should we draw the line beyond that? Salvations occur in every church, and they don't all preach the same details. I know denominations that don't believe in baptism, or in the trinity.

I mean the Body looks to me like it is far from perfect. Maybe Eph. 4 means that prophecy needs to continue until all the revelation in the bible can transform them into being perfect (that's what it is saying). That transformation is what I refer to as the accomodation of revelation. People need to accomodate their behavior to be in line with what is required by the revelation in the Word of God. I'm not saying we need prophecy; Ephesians is saying we are going to have it anyway.

I'm sorry, the first word in verse 13 is in fact, "until". I checked it Greek too. The offices are for the work of the ministry, which edify. The next word is until. If until applies to the edifying, then it mus apply to the ministry which causes it. If it applies to ministry, then it must apply to the offices which drive the ministry.

You don't need to mention miracles in 2 Tim. If they exist, they are a good work. Jesus doesn't classify them as miracles sometimes, either. "Go tell John what you see and hear: The blind see (miracle), the lame walk (miracle), the poor hear the good news (not a miracle). Jesus says look at how the deeds are done, rather than what is done.

Those angels in Hebrews are apostles and prophets, but that's another story, from the Didache. It does not prove that one can still entertain such, and that's what we are discussing.

You are quite correct. God does not have to have those gifts operating now. But there is no reason He can't if He wants to have them either. Prophecy will be restored to the two witnesses in Revelation, after a 1600+ year absence (the count is at 1600 now).

I need to know what you mean by "new information". All I hear is prophecies saying that certain things mentioned in the Scriptures anyway are going to happen now.

I see you are providing links. I'll be back...

zone · Dec 9, 2012

kenisyes said:

hi Ken.
but why not just stick to the Bible?
if it is what transforms us (by the Spirit, the scriptures are God breathed), is able to bring us into the unity of the faith (all we need for the faith delivered once for all is in it) why don't we just study and teach what it says?

kenisyes said:

i see Ephesians as saying they were going to have it anyway.
and they did.

kenisyes said:

okay...but just because there's 'disunity' and a zillion denominations, doesn't mean that many many are not mature (complete). i think it would be easier if we just stayed with scripture.

maybe you and i are mixing signals...i don't believe every group or person who claims the name of Jesus yet knows Him or is known by Him.

we must be born again - not by human will, but by the will of God.

kenisyes said:

but we continue to quote passages about JESUS and His Apostles, and apply them to us.

God predicted that Jesus would go specifically to Israel, walk the region He walked and perform all the marvellous the things He did.
we know that from the OT.

what does that have to do with us today? we are not Jesus, and we are not His 12 (and those commissioned at that time, as the NT was being revealed).

kenisyes said:

i'm not saying angels can't be among us.

i'm denying the Five-Fold Ministry, the Latter Rain, the NAR << not the same type or quality or purpose of the Apstolic era. therefore something NEW. and NOT prophesied to happen, as from God...but predicted as an influx of false prophets and so on.

false prophets are prophesied to come. lying signs and wonders.
ppl departing from the faith (delivered once for all).
ppl not holding to sound teaching.

kenisyes said:

okay

kenisyes said:

what things, exactly? what things are you hearing are going to happen now?

okay....so why do we need those prophesies?
isn't God's delivered word trustworthy enough?

kenisyes said:

ok Ken...i will, hopefully tomorrow.
i have my hands full at the moment.
but i am enjoying our conversation, and again appreciate your kindness and honesty

love zone.

ps - i know we're covering a lot of ground in the other threads too, which is helpful.
i'm reading them.

kenisyes · Dec 9, 2012

I'm sticking to the part of the Bible that says they are going to have prophecy. It's great the Ephesians had it. The Body of Christ is way bigger now, and does not seem to have it.

Exactly, many are not mature. So that's why we prophecy has not stopped. The passage says scripture will continue until the Body is mature. I know too many people serious about God, but immature. It's not always (or even mainly) false claims. It's just they haven't walked with God long enough. Even many pastors and bishops.

Jesus lives in us. Besides, it is still an assumption that these passages were only for them.

And I'm saying that just as 700 prophets of Baal eating at Jezebel's table do not invalidate one true prophet Elijah, all the false prophets and apostles do not invalidate true one. Here's an interesting observation: If apostles and prophets are only for the early church, why do we still have evangelists, teachers, and pastors? Why should Paul have put those five in the same line when some will survive and some won't?

So I'll say it again. It doesn't matter if we need it. God could just be trying to be nice to us. We don't need nearly 100000 new christian songs in 20 years either (check out ccli.com) but there they are....

The bottom line is I still see this and live with it every day, and it's not what is in those videos. You say you can't make it happen by saying it is happening, and that's true. But you can't stop it by saying you think it was only for the early church, either.

Direct question: Is it okay to be excited about God doing things in the world? Salvation? Commitment? New anthems being written? People entering ministry? Is the feeling of excitement okay for such things?

zone · Dec 10, 2012

kenisyes said:

hi Ken

yes, God certainly could give the Apostolic gifts again.
nothing stops Him from doing what He will.

the question is, is He?

~

100000 new anthems...well, i'm working my way through the Reformation hymns right now

regarding a feeling of excitement - i'll say again, i'm not excited at all at the prospect of the NAR; Latter Rain or any of that. i'm convinced it's counterfeit.

~

The Latter Rain

"The Latter Rain is God's great end-time ministry. This concept as revealed in the Bible, comprises the restitution of the church to it's rightful place, the enormous last day revival soon to come and the harvest of souls before the great and terrible Day of the Lord. It is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh promised to us in the last days and the restoration of apostolic and prophetic gifts. I have heard it explained like this, the latter rain, the latter reign and the latter rein; first the spiritual outpouring, then the spirit and Bride says come in power and authority and then the ingathering."

The Latter Rain Page < click source

"It is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh promised to us in the last days." < this is demonstrably a corruption of Acts 2.

Pentecost already happened and THE LAST DAYS began with the Coming of Jesus.

(i've just posted on that in another thread in the BD forum..i forget which one...anybody can just spend a day and sort this out in their own way).

"It is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh promised to us in the last days and the restoration of apostolic and prophetic gifts."

..................................

The New Apostolic Reformation
What is it and where is it going?

The International Coalition of Apostles headed by C. Peter Wagner is the most influential purveyor of the New Apostolic Reformation, a term coined by Wagner. This organization is really an extension of the New Order of the Latter Rain whose influences and mentors include William Branham, Franklin Hall, the Hawtin brothers, and more recently Bill Hamon, Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets.

The doctrines of the Latter Rain have influenced most of the televangelists on TV today, and so have crept deceptively into many denominations. The main heretical teachings of the New Order Of The Latter Rain, as ruled in 1949 at the General Council of the Assemblies of God held in Seattle, were as follows:

(1) The restoration of foundational apostles and prophets in the churches.

(2) The teaching and promotion of a transferable impartation or anointings that are passed on "by" the laying on of hands "by" the will of man.

(3) Confession and deliverance from sin to men.

(4) The impartation of spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands such as the gift of languages for missionary service and other "ministry skills".

(5) The extreme and unscriptural practice of imparting or imposing personal leadings by the means of the gifts of utterance, "word of knowledge" or prophecy.

(6) Distortions of scripture interpretations, which are in opposition to teachings and practices generally accepted among the Church.

These doctrines deemed heretical by the Assemblies Of God in 1949, which are now common fare because of the Brownsville 'Revival" and the Third Wave movement, are all being promoted today in the New Apostolic Reformation...

Sandy Simpson"

NAR - Video < click source

Assemblies Of God way back in 1949 deemed all that stuff heresy!

were they wrong like RCC, Ken?

love zone

hhhlga89 · Dec 10, 2012

It's funny how only people who believe in "spiritual gifts" for today are the only ones who have them?

Do you think that is a matter of faith or lack of it? I know alot of cessationists with more faith then tongue speakers (and vica versa).

kenisyes · Dec 10, 2012

zone said:

A. Then we agree. The rest is just observation. Is He? Like I've been saying, we have different observations.

B. You're avoiding the question. Are you excited about any advance in the Kingdom of God? Name your own advance.

C. 1. The key word is "foundational". There are many things that could be started, and an apostle could be at the foundation of that thing. CC could not have existed 20 years ago. The person who thought of the first Christian chat site is an apostle, a foundational apostle of a new idea within the Church, but not a foundational apostle in the sense of Peter, Andrew, or Paul. Question to you, what kind of apostle was Barnabas (acts 14:14)? Was he "foundational"? If so, why was he not an apostle until after he travelled with Paul for sometime? It is doubtful he ever personally knew Jesus, either in person, or by encounter like Paul. In Acts 4:36, he seems to join the church just before Ananias and Sapphira.

2-4. Gifts and anointings cannot be transferred. They are given by the Holy Spirit. Only offices can be transferred, and then only to the extent that they are of human creation (like a bishop can name a pastor, but this does not guarantee God has called the person named to be a pastor). I know some people who have been prayed over this way, and they all say that the laying on of hands was just a confirmation that the Lord had given them this call. I have never seen a case of "transfer" outside the traditional Catholic church, who has always done this for bishops.

3. Never saw it. Other than the Catholic confessional, of course.

5. Prophets (at least the ones I know) do not impart "leadings". They might say what they think God wants a person to do, but that is just like any other prophecy. "Let two or three prophecy, and let the rest judge". I have also never known anyone to follow such a prophecy unless it was confirmed by the situation, and the person's own desire anyway. Cessationists have a matching procedure called "spiritual direction", which can be abused the same way. A young person submits to a spiritual director who then abuses the trust place in him; catholics use this to get the child abuse going sometimes, as do unsaved psychiatrists.

6. We all disagre with that. Obviously phrases like "generally accepted" depend on who you are talking to. It is "generally accepted" among Seven Day Adventists, that all of us are perverting Scripture when we attend worship on Sunday, for example.

I have heard a couple of these names, Wagner and Harmon. I asked the people I heard it from, and they have never heard of the NAR.

zone · Dec 11, 2012

hi Ken.
i'm coming back to this today....a bit later (Lord willing).
but we're getting down to it.
love you Ken.
zone

Indubitably · Dec 11, 2012

hhhlga, what a statement! It's not funny or strange that people who have the gifts, believe in them. Have you considered that people who don't believe in the gifts cannot receive them? God does not honor unbelief.

I dislike the controversy over calvanism vs. arminianism. After years of hearing and seeing all the arguments of the "greatest theological minds", I have come to the conclusion that much of the difference is in semantics. Yes there are major differences, but if I expound a major doctrine such as predestination, followers should not name everything I believe after me. This is the problem. Neither of these men expected nor intended, that their beliefs in total, would become a church doctrine. Obviously you can agree with me about some things and differ about others.

I simply "preach Jesus and Him crucified". One of my favorite scriptures: John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This settles the matter for me!

Abiding · Dec 13, 2012

I know i dont see much in my little world and experience but
im not seeing maturity in the charis/pente side of the body.
It has seemed to me the places that have lots of prophecies
are the most immature folks ive ever met. They have ideas that
almost claim that the word of God is secondary. One lately told me it
was a starters manual and that the first thing to teach a babe was
to talk with God and wein off the bible.

Im being honest and trying hard to not be biased. They scare me at times.
I have no lack of Faith in the workings of the Holyspirit. So to me
prophecy maturing someone makes no sense at all the bible teaches what
maturity comes from and it isnt the gifts.

kenisyes · Dec 13, 2012

I've seen a lot of immaturity and relatively little maturity in both sides. The question to me is what do you do with the people who have "gifts", meaning abilities that are not usual, but could be part of God's plan? In a cessationist environment there is no training and no encouragement. People are simply told they are imagining things, superstitious, or some such. The Bible is supposed to provide teaching, correction, and reproof to prepare for every good work. The continuationist folks are at last trying to study what the Bible has to say about those.

That thing about weaning people off the Bible is really crazy. I never heard such a thing. Well, I once had a pastor tell me to shut up about the Bible, because he was hearing from God. Then he called me and my wife Ananias and Saphira, and said unless we stayed in his church we would never have a ministry. Well, that was 8 years ago, last I checked. He is still following some evangelist around waiting for his "big break", and living off his wife and his 75 year old father, pastoring the same 5 people, and my wife had a ministry until the day she went to bed to die, and I still work pretty much full time in the Kingdom. He was a perfect example of Christian immaturity. But then there was the cessationist Catholic priest I worked for many years ago, who preached it's a sin to read the Bible unless he is there to explain it to you; I later heard he sold black market babies.

So I get concerned a lot, too. But, in the long run, it's not about what man you follow who is following Jesus (and thus blocking part of your direct line of sight of Jesus), but about what you do when it's time for you to make your choice.

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