Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

zone said:

You can't summon up faith on your own. I agree. You need show you the word the word. you need someone to help you understand or convict you of the word (Scripture saysd the HS does this to all people) ,and you need someone and something to guide you in the word (including things like the law)

without this help from these many someones or somethings, you would not have a thing to have faith in would you? You still have to freely chose to trust all the things you are being shown, or reject them.

this is where I have an issue. God says he is a God of love, To love someone, and relate with them. they have to be able to freely respond to you. otherwise you have a machine which just does whatever it was designed to do.

God designed us to love him, and depend on him for all things, we broke what was created by sin, and as with all things created, have become useless and are subject to be throne out to the fire to be destroyed. But God loves us so much, he created a fix for us, which not only keeps us from being throne into the fire, but restores the thing which we were created for in the first place. to relate and depend on god. who wants to give us all things. as a loving father does.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

ps, yes your right, this op was about romans 9, amazingly though, no one wishes to discuss it..

zone · Dec 13, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

but EG - this makes God's Will and Plan ultimately dependent on the will of man.
He has to look through time, and see who decides to believe, then start creation. It means MAN decided everything!
i don't see that anywhere.

i see Him saying things like He chose Paul from his mother's womb.
He chose jeremiah, etc.

Romans 9
6Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! 7Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,”d though Abraham had other children, too. 8This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children. 9For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

10This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins.f 11But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”g 13In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”h

14Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15For God said to Moses,

“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”i
16So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

17For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”j 18So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

19Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

of course, this is NLT....but don't all the translations say this?
correct me if i'm wrong on this.

(btw: though i can not know for sure....i do not believe God sends infants to hell)...but this is my opinion. based partly on David's baby.

zone · Dec 13, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

i am discussing it.
i posted NLT. just for simplicity.
it could be totally corrupt; but what does the greek say?
i don't read greek, so i don't know.

phil36 · Dec 13, 2012

Hi Eternal,

To get to the point. Its not about whether or not man has a will.. he has, I have one and so do you all. The question is actually about the nature of mans 'will'.

I think if you were to read Luthers 'bondage of the will' you may gat a pleasant suprise... you may still not like it. but atleast then you would know what the point of debate is.

zone · Dec 13, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

but if He revealed the truth to us, how can we believe it without faith?
and it says Father draws, Jesus saves. where are we in that?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God...

it's this age old issue again....what is the gift of God?
Grace?
Salvation?
Faith?

it says: "And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

so it says it was not our doing - that means it wasn't our doing when God looked through the corridors of time and saw us doing.

right? otherwise it would say so.

zone · Dec 13, 2012

phil36 said:

YAY Luther!

(great movie btw)

Bondage of the Will #1 by Martin Luther, This Reformer's Most Important Book - SWRB
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10306112820 < click source audio MP3 series

shameless plug...hehehe

Abiding · Dec 13, 2012

As many as received Him......He gave the power to become the sons of God.
does the order matter?
what is the power?
when is it given?

tek · Dec 13, 2012

Grandpa said:

ok, let me get to the bottom of this.
I am just really confused here.

A person "trapped in sin" is Spiritually Dead.
Christians are not Spiritually Dead. Christians are Spiritually Alive. Are you with me so far?

When a person becomes a Christian he is predestined to heaven. He will never die but have eternal life. Are you with me so far?

We are discussing here whether some Spiritually Dead people are predestined to become Christians. Are you with me so far?

Now
I just can't understand why would you quote John 15:5 in relation to verse Romans 6:17 when Romans 6:17 is about Spiritually Dead and John 15:5 is about Spiritually Alive? Don’t you understand that Romans 6:17 is about people who are not Christians yet? Don’t you understand that John 15:5 is about people who are Christians already?

Why do you quote John 15:5 (which is not about Spiritually Dead people to start with) when we are discussing whether some Spiritually Dead people are predestined to become Christians.

John 15:5 is not about Spiritually Dead people. Why do you then quote it if we are talking about Spiritually Dead people. I just can’t understand it.

GreenNnice · Dec 13, 2012

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
5“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

This is the salvation picture. God calls many to be with Him, all who ELECT to listen become chosen. Does this understanding of elect make sense?

The 'elect' in Scripture are some Nazistic tribe of God, He INVITES many (of course, God is just, some's hearts are just NOT going to change, which speaks of FREE WILL, too )

The 'elect,' too, of speaking of the false followers swaying , trying to, anyway, sway the elect is speaking of the elders of churches, the pastors and associate pastors and those in charge of churches.

There are TWO different contexts for 'elect' in Scripture, election is simply what it says, God elects those who OPEN their heart to His drawing them to Him. God draws ALL to Him, some do not go, they are invited, and, I don't undersand the word 'many' of 'For many are invited,' but it does mean to me that God invites all who are willing to be chosen by Him, they wear the proper wedding clothes, but some, the CLOSEST to Him, of all people, the ones that received invitations and were close to the king in this wedding banquet chose NOT to show up. So, God, invited the least of these to come, I guess that is why He says in the beattitudes, 'Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall see God.
And, 'harder to get in to Heaven than a camel going through the eye of a needle.' Not impossible, as the 'eye of a needle,' most know, is the small passageway that a camel? goes through with a rider and it is nearly impossible to get the camel to go through the passage. Is that it? Idk, it sounds good enough for me, the point remains the same.

God calls us to Him, for that love Him have 'purpose,' Scripture says. Pretty straightforward, I think.
God is faithful to us, He invites us to the wedding feast but IF we do not go in with what He wants us to go in with, I personally think the wedding clothes are 'love of Him,' then that person will be CAST OUT , and, it's a looooong cast

(to hell).

Makes perfect sense too, to love God is to understand His grace of His Son dying on the cross and those who believe in Him and received His Spirit unto them (Romans 8:14) . It's not rocket science, but it is God's perfect, created way of our to work in our life, a start, anyway, as we labor with Him, planting and watering, He provides the increase. We take the talents He's given and we USE them, this is by grace that we get what we get, but the nation that was blessed was Israel and it was blessed by faith of Abraham following God. God provides the increase, we are to plant and water and God provides the growth....

Very important that we live in His grace, knowing fuill well that we will mess up but knowing full well that God is just and does shew mercy, He shewed mercy to Adam and Eve, didn't smite them, shewed mercy to Cain, great mercy, Cain killed his brother and God still allowed Cain to get married, have a kid or two or three and it says too 'Cain built a city,'. So.......God bless ya, Christ peeps. ACCEPT His will for your life, through YOUR mistakes, KEEP KNOWING He is ther, it is going to be goooood grace and mercy and love shown you, just, just, just, perfect . God knows how important 'love,' is or He wouldn't have spoke through Paul about it's greatness. Faith, hope, love, all three are 'great,' we know, but love is the BETTER WAY than any other way to reach others. The only way, in fact, I think it's fair to say, not to gong like a clashing symbol

tek · Dec 13, 2012

GreenNnice said:

......what a parable
9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find

... It is a wedding feast. Wedding feasts are usually rich, free, and joyful.

the design of the feast (i.e. gospel) was to fill every hungry soul with good things.

tek · Dec 13, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

what a powerful verse

plussizedstickbug · Dec 13, 2012

I can not believe any infant would ever be commended in judgment when the infant died.
There is no way to impart wrath into the infant who can not hear, see or understand the law or The Word of God spoken unto it.
So it can not be an infant of wrath and disobedience.
I have hear this before that infants will go to hell because of the parent that was not Saved.
That I can not accpet in my heart at all that would be so very uncalled for to put the sins of my sister on me to pay for what she did or chose to do.
I do not answer for any others sins they committed I have to answer for my own self.
I can not blame any other for the sins I done they are mine to answer for.
Christ took all mans sins upon Him the whole world.
All that have ears to hear are accountable for that Word of God Christ spoke unto this world.
When there is a human that can not hear a word spoken unto it other just sounds with no knowledge or understanding in them of The Word of God it can not be held accountable.
It is that Word Christ spoke when heard in our ears stands to judge all that it was brought before and presented as accepting it or rejecting it.
Even if the infant hears sounds loud and scary or pleasant and calming it does not know what the sounds are saying unto it, it responds by sees feeling not mind understanding even what how or why it feels this way to that sound.
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I made a decision about this when my sisters baby died about 4 hours after birth and was later approached by the conversation stating babies can go to hell.

tek · Dec 13, 2012

plussizedstickbug said:

Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13.
Also Adam was created a fully grown man

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

zone said:

I can not buy this line of reasoning in the context of what we are talking about. And even with anything else, How would free will make Gods will and plan dependent on mans will? Romans 9 refutes the fact Isreal was chosen by the will, or good deeds of men. Even though Israel as a nation was for the most part unrepentant sinners. Christ still came did he not? There disobedience did not stop Gods will and plan.

Thats why I reject the fact that Gods omniscience means nothing. It is through his omniscience that he makes sure his will and plan are carried out.

1. He knows who will do what he needs done, and makes sure they are there to do it. If they won;t he will get someone else. (If he knew Abraham would not have left his house, he would have gotten someone else to do it. He went to Abraham, because he knew he would do it.
2. He knows the exact time and place something needs to be done to make the most impact to affect his plan through foreknowledge

and then finally. Gods will and plan are not dependent on mans will when it comes to the Gospel. It IS GODS WILL that man chose freely to receive him, or reject him.

John 6. This is the will of God. that whoever SEES the son, and believes on him will never hunger, never thirst, never die, be given eternal life, And given his own assurance, he will raise them on the last day.

Why don't you? John 6. It is the will of God that whoever sees and believes will be saved. The Gospel message is Jesus came into the world and paid the debt of sin, that whoever BELIEVES in him will never perish but has eternal life.

If it is the will and plan of God that he will save mankind through the death of his son, and that whoever places their faith in him will be saved. then it is logical to not only see, but understand that Gods predestination and election are based on THESE VERY THINGS. and if they are based on these things, then they must be based on his foreknowledge of Christ coming to earth and die, and that his gift would be given to those who already knew would have faith in this work. which again, was his will to begin with.

well yeah, He chose paul to do what he did, Same with jeremiah. I am sure he chose you to do what he has you doing. But that has nothing to do with salvation. that is his plan for your life. And his plan is based on the facts he knew you would carry them out. If he knew you would not, he would have chose someone else to do the Job.

I am gonna cut this into two responses. so will end here.

Abiding · Dec 13, 2012

Eg why fit 2 or 3 verses that are obscure into 50 clear ones
when you can squish 50 clear ones into 2 or 3 obscure ones?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

zone said:

The NLT is a horrible translation, I would not recommend anyone use this.
I will just show one major mistake. and take it that if there is one, there is probably more.

10This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins.f 11But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”g 13In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.

lets just look at the bolded part.

here it is in the NASB

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”

notice a huge discrepencies here.

1. In the nlv, the words (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) were added, and not in the origional text. It was just a personal interpretation as to what the author of the passage in the NLV thought it meant. in other words, they added to the word of God.

2. The words (son) were added and not found in the origional text. Another addition based on personal opinion.

3. Paul is quoting an OT passage. and if we go to the OT passage, words son was not used. This according to the NLV, Paul lied, and misquoted an OT passage.

proof. lets look

23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Esau never served Jacob. Jacob considered himself the servant of Esau, God was talking about Isreal and Edom. for ONLY they fit the things which were said to rebecca about the two nations or peoples which would come from her womb. so for Paul to use this to say God saved on kid, and rejected another is to take paul out of context. and take what was actually said which paul was quoting out of context.

of course I went over this in my OP, which is what I wanted to discuss...

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

zone said:

the greek says more closely to what the NASB or NKJV or other says, as I just showed. the NLV is a horrible translation.

Interesting to note. I actually like the NLV version of Gen 25, which paul quoted.. The NLV just contradicted itself.

23 And the LORD told her, “The sons in your womb will become two nations. From the very beginning, the two nations will be rivals. One nation will be stronger than the other; and your older son will serve your younger son.”

Tyndale House Publishers. (2007). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (3rd ed.) (Ge 25:23). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

ok I stand corrected. I spoke to soon, it does talk about two nations, but then I assume to keep romans 9 and their interpretation intact, it says sons.

It says the older son will serve the younger. Never happened. Study Jacob and Esau's life.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 13, 2012

phil36 said:

well the debate in here is does romans 9 say what those like you believe, or what people like me believe. Which is what I wanted to discuss.

ps. I grew up in a very calvanistic church, and have followed many calvanistic teachers. I am not hearing anything I have not heard before.

plussizedstickbug · Dec 13, 2012

The most troubling word for me in the scriptures has been the word "unto" when I went to the dictionary it did not help it made it more troubling.
And it was so embarrassing to have to go to some one and ask them to tell what unto means in those scriptures.
Websters made it more technically confusing to me I guess because it was the writing definition not really the understanding of it scripture.
Just how to use it does not explain what it is implying.
I still have to consider that word "unto" and look unto it to understand what it means why one word would grab me like that I do not know.
Then another unto enters and I have to try and figue what that one in that way means because the matter spoken of changed.

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