Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[RickShafer]

Good point.
There is something to that.
And Jesus says - those that the Father has given Him, He has lost none except the son of perdition(Judas Iscariot).
Is it possible Jesus didn't know who would receive Him?
He also said the Father is greater than Him.
I think there is a definite response that must happen.
Going back to first cause.......(who gives the faith to respond)
Many theologians have mapped out perfect arguments.
It is a mystery.
I tend to believe God gives the unction to have the grace to have faith.
Because the alternative tends toward pride I've found. Spiritual pride, which is the worst kind.

 

[Abiding]

Rick that doesnt explain much first the context doesnt seem to be talking
about Jesus ministry on earth although it would include that.

See id figure Jesus would have been in error saying what He said
taking the Father drawing business was added which i believe but
cant find it appropriate here or even helpful.

Also we cant let sentiment such as "the alternative tends toward pride"
drive our theology as i see from both camps.

He definitly said...He would have BUT they wouldnt.
So thats the story there.

 

[RickShafer]

Well, was He tempted in all points like us without sin?
Yes.
What is one of the great temptations we face?
I mean one of the one's where we are tempted to give up.
Rejection.
How could Jesus be tempted in this particular point if He already knew who would receive Him?
See the rich young ruler for instance:
Mark 10:17-23

King James Version (KJV)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


(Notice the rejection, and the emotion)


Hebrews 2:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Hebrews 4:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Abiding, Jesus faced rejection.
He didn't know who would accept Him anymore than we do.
(Or else He wouldn't have been tempted to the same level)
We know He was tempted over and above whatever any other could bear.
We know He was offered the world to but kneel at the feet of the great dragon. Matt. 4:3-10

We know His visage was marred more than any man. - Isa. 52:14


He faced rejection the same way we do, hoping for acceptance.
(But He went through it to a much greater extent)

 

[Abiding]

True but if your saying that Matt 23 is a statement coming only from His life here on earth
then that would make sense from a calvinist point of view.

But i dont think He talking about just His time on earth but talking in context from the whole chapter
Hes talking about their history being more than just his time and rejection on earth.

If im wrong about that then id accept that...but it does pose a problem to me from a calvinists viewpoint
that He would have admittedly wasted His time being as He made these claims:

I never speak of myself(a limited understanding as the son of man)
I never speak my own words
I only speak what the Father tells me
I do not do my own things but what the Father tell me
Etc

So to me this is a Anthropomorphism that shows human will
not thwarting Gods total plan but surely shows a dynamic in it.

 

[Cobus]

Writtten by TEK
When Jonah was flying off the board of his ship into freezing water of the ocean what do you think his thoughts were like….Let me help you with that: “Oh man I wish I was right now in a warm cozy bed in some nice hotel somewhere on the beach with a cocktail in my hand”

That was his “Free Will” talking. But he didn’t have a “Choice” and so he ended up in freezing waters.

That’s the difference between a “Choice” and “Free Will”. Do you see it?

MY ANSWER FROM GOD!
I said to Jonah... Go to NINIVEH and .....
Satan said to Jonah..... Do not go to NINIVEH, take this ship to.... away from God's precence...
Jonah had no will, but he had to make a choice, one of two. God to Niniveh as God said, or take this ship as Satan said.

Jonah chose to do as Satan said, God dod not like that one bit, so HE stirred up a storm, so that Jonah can RETHINK his choice.
As the storm got bad, EVERYBODY prayed, except Jonah. So Gd stirred up the people against Jonah, God's will that Jonah should also give accoutability for HIS CHOICE. So they asked Jonah... Who are you, who is your God, is it not HIM that made the storm, and Jonah now had time to rethink his BAD CHOICE! Bad to follow Satan's will. Jonah would now much rather HE TOOK THE ROAD TO NINIVEH.

Jonah's thoughts and will was still in Satan's, he was still in the ship. But now he was sorry he did not listen, and to get him back closer to NINIVEH and to GOD'S will, the quickest way is if a fish would carry him back. And God sent the transport.... A FISH. Also as a lesson to me and TEK, to way our options in EVERY move we make..... BETTER TO LISTEN TO GOD! Better to choose God's will in our lives than Satan's will.

Ever noticed how loveless Satan's will is? And how loving God's will is? Easy to discern what WAY to WALK!

God bless, TEK. And thank you for your time.
It is now 02:52 AM, just woke up, in 15 minutes time my son, my brother and I are going fishing from Mosselbay boat club. We will be targeting Bonito, Skipjack, Soldiers, Kob, Red Roman and whatever God sent to bite on our bait. When the sun breaks the horizon we hope to be quite a ways from the harbour. I hope we have a fourth Person on board, because HE is me favorate Person. And who knows what blessings HE comes with.

Lord touch my brother's heart today, as ONLY YOU CAN. AMEN!

 

[hopesprings]

hi bud
yup. i'm trying to see both sides as well.

God is both Sovereign and Merciful.

no EG, i'm not trying to actually say anything about God, i was just trying to examine our (my) logic in this.

see, even if we do it like this:

"are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him."

....it STILL turns out to be God planning everything based on who summons up faith, right?

if we must force this to fit, (which you can tell i am less and less willing to do personally, though the discussion is a very good one) it really does come down to:

God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation...(let's leave out the issue of God outside of time for now...i don't mean to stir up mental illustrations of linear time for God etc)

if this is the case - God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation, the argument we are making ends up being exactly like predestination that we are struggling against on the other side - because:

IF He had to look into His Own Plan first to see who would accept Him; it means He went ahead ANYWAY and allowed men to be born whom HE KNEW would reject Him (because we KNOW there have been and will be many who did and do)!

so i see no difference!

what am i missing?



??
here we have Him ordering EVERYTHING based on who will believe (which is the first step to obeying in the 100% freewill camp, right?)

so, we have Him doing everything based on who has/receives/summons FAITH - BEFORE they were ever born!

but we have to agree the scriptures of our Bible say faith itself is gift from God, EG.
what do we do with that?



i knew i overworked that post
i didn't literally mean righteous, i meant they obeyed! which means they had faith without Him giving it to them! and He then acted accordingly. it's not adding up. not for me so far.



well then, when they/we get to heaven, will we not have things to boast about?

"people in place he knew would fulfill his plan"

it's almost as if we will be getting praise from HIM for making His Plan work!!!
God forbid!



EG - it looks like in many places He [forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things, whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.

John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.



no EG....i'm not making (forcing) anything to match if i don't have to.
i'm kinda moving away from that in this particular area because of the dangers involved at both extremes.
not moving away from the discussion, but rather from saying it is either A or B.

for now anyway.

so i see both sides....am trying to anyways, okay?



yes, God did choose Israel.
and of course He makes no mistakes.

but Who is really the Ultimate ISRAEL?
i don't want a derailment EG - just saying there's a lot to this.

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”



again, i know EG. i overworked it, trying to highlight what the implications REALLY are.

"Thus he had to chose them based on this"

??

see what i mean?

~

love, from the twilightzone on this one right now....

Its like you knew what i was thinking...or...wondering...

 

[tern]

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Nobody says that sinners are good. Sinners are bad or wicked. Everybody knows that. The point is that a sinner might have a "Will" by which he wishes things were different even though he is enslaved by sin at the time. This is what this verse is talking about which I believe you just misunderstand. Let’s go through it

Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,

so you were enslaved by sin, in other words you were spiritually dead.

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

and even though you were enslaved by sin (i.e. spiritually dead) somewhere in your heart you wished things were different. So when you came to church and heard the gospel for the very first time you obeyed it in your heart. It says “obeyed it in your heart” because you couldn’t obey it otherwise (i.e. in your flesh) because at the time you were still enslaved by sin. You were still spiritually dead at the time of obeying

Being then made free from sin,

And then Jesus saw your heart and helped you out and made you free from sin i.e. you became born again

ye became the servants of righteousness.

So a sinner becomes born again not because he is a glove-puppet who got lucky to be elected before he is even born (while millions of others were no so lucky and go to torment) but because deep down in his heart he had a “Will” to start with and Jesus saw that

 

[psychomom]

Its like you knew what i was thinking...or...wondering...

And you, in turn, knew what I was thinking...

The sovereignty of God.
It's beautiful. ♥

I don't claim to understand it.
But I love it.
-ellie

 

[tern]

And you, in turn, knew what I was thinking...

and i have not a clue

 

[psychomom]

and i have not a clue

I am sorry!

Knowing that God is sovereign brings a whole new level to this peace we have in Christ.

So, if it's okay with you, I'll pray you are given that understanding.

-ellie

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hi bud
yup. i'm trying to see both sides as well.

God is both Sovereign and Merciful.

no EG, i'm not trying to actually say anything about God, i was just trying to examine our (my) logic in this.

see, even if we do it like this:

"are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him."

....it STILL turns out to be God planning everything based on who summons up faith, right?

Does this not jive with what scripture says? Does the gospel not the gospel say whoever believes in me in so many places in so many ways that Gods plan was before time began that he would send his son, and whoever entered in his way would be saved, and whoever did not enter his way would not be saved? meaning salvation is available to all, but we must chose to enter in?

Does not God all through the bible tell us if we do this, he will do that, if we do not do this, he will do that. Why would God give us all these warnings if we have no free will to do anything? It would not make sense.

if we must force this to fit, (which you can tell i am less and less willing to do personally, though the discussion is a very good one) it really does come down to:

God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation...(let's leave out the issue of God outside of time for now...i don't mean to stir up mental illustrations of linear time for God etc)

if this is the case - God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation, the argument we are making ends up being exactly like predestination that we are struggling against on the other side - because:

IF He had to look into His Own Plan first to see who would accept Him; it means He went ahead ANYWAY and allowed men to be born whom HE KNEW would reject Him (because we KNOW there have been and will be many who did and do)!

so i see no difference!

what am i missing?

Because in one plan. God makes everyone do whatever he wills with no free will. In the other plan, God offers everyone the same thing. because of one event. and thus no one can say he is not a fair God.

??
here we have Him ordering EVERYTHING based on who will believe (which is the first step to obeying in the 100% freewill camp, right?)

so, we have Him doing everything based on who has/receives/summons FAITH - BEFORE they were ever born!

but we have to agree the scriptures of our Bible say faith itself is gift from God, EG.
what do we do with that?

What do we do with that? we look at it for what it is.

Did God not supply Abraham with everything he needed to trust him? Did God not supply everything we need to trust him? Can I have faith in something that is not real? that would not be faith would it? My faith is based on what someone did, if he did not supply the means of faith (the work) than I could not have faith could I? So it is not faiht in myself, it is faith in the one who can supply what he promised.

Abraham trusted God and went to kill his sin, Knowing God would raise him from the dead if he did kill hium why? He trusted Gods promise. God said out of this son would come the blessing, well the son had not had a child of his own yet, So for God to keep his promise, the son would have to live. God provided the faith through the promise.

i knew i overworked that post
i didn't literally mean righteous, i meant they obeyed! which means they had faith without Him giving it to them! and He then acted accordingly. it's not adding up. not for me so far.

Maybe your not looking at it the right way?

well then, when they/we get to heaven, will we not have things to boast about?

"people in place he knew would fulfill his plan"

it's almost as if we will be getting praise from HIM for making His Plan work!!!
God forbid!

What could I boast of? Could I do anything without Gods work? When we get to heaven, and realise how truly sinful we really were, and how undeserving we were to be a part of Gods plan, when ALL pride is removed. do you think anyone will have a reason to boast? How did Daniel react when he came face to face with an angel in his glory, How about John? how do you think we will react when we see God in ALL his glory? Who is going to boast? Lets be honest with ourselves.

EG - it looks like in many places He [forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things, whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.

John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.

Yeah, and he also was very knowledgeable of the OT prophesies. And he used this to do evil. as many do. They quote scripture to do evil. And this shows what? God used people who were not his all the time did he not? Does it mean God forced them?

no EG....i'm not making (forcing) anything to match if i don't have to.
i'm kinda moving away from that in this particular area because of the dangers involved at both extremes.
not moving away from the discussion, but rather from saying it is either A or B.

for now anyway.

so i see both sides....am trying to anyways, okay?

ok

yes, God did choose Israel.
and of course He makes no mistakes.

but Who is really the Ultimate ISRAEL?
i don't want a derailment EG - just saying there's a lot to this.

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”



again, i know EG. i overworked it, trying to highlight what the implications REALLY are.

"Thus he had to chose them based on this"

??

see what i mean?

~

love, from the twilightzone on this one right now....

lol. He chose physical Isreal. Not spiritual Isreal. those are two things.

Paul spoke on this, He chose national isreal. but being natural Isreal does not mean they are saved. As paul said, they are hated for the gospel. but they are still loved because of the promises. Yet he still chose them. His argument was did he make a mistake chosing them. and he spends three chapters proving he did not make a mistake.

Gods plan has many aspects. not just salvic

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus said it at the end of His ministry as He overlooked Jerusalem from the mount of Olives.
Basically it states what happened: He came unto His own and His own received Him not.
They had the oracles of God, and they knew a Messiah was coming but it couldn't be Him.
Because He didn't set up an eternal kingdom, like the prophecies said. (See...they saw only in part, but they thought they saw in full).
So it was a people who had the writings of Moses and the prophets and knew that the Messiah would set up an eternal kingdom when He showed up.
(The Jews still believe this to this day!)
They believe the Messiah will set up an eternal kingdom.....that's their scripture and they are sticking to it.
They are looking for a righteous David. He showed up, but He slipped through their hands.
Because He didn't free them from their captors.
See how all they were looking for was temporal and material?
While Jesus frees souls from the bonds of spiritual chains, tens of thousands of souls a day.

In my mind, this is what Matt. 23:37 means.

true. this is what it says, But I do not think this is what Abiding was asking.

He was asking about what Jesus was saying. It was JESUS WILL to do this, BUT THEY WERE NOT WILLING.

If all goes as some people think. The people of Isreal would have done what Jesus willed. Unless we do not think Jesus is God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True but if your saying that Matt 23 is a statement coming only from His life here on earth
then that would make sense from a calvinist point of view.

But i dont think He talking about just His time on earth but talking in context from the whole chapter
Hes talking about their history being more than just his time and rejection on earth.

If im wrong about that then id accept that...but it does pose a problem to me from a calvinists viewpoint
that He would have admittedly wasted His time being as He made these claims:

I never speak of myself(a limited understanding as the son of man)
I never speak my own words
I only speak what the Father tells me
I do not do my own things but what the Father tell me
Etc

So to me this is a Anthropomorphism that shows human will
not thwarting Gods total plan but surely shows a dynamic in it.

Think about what Jesus said.

They killed the prophets. what were the prophets sent to her for? to get them to repent and come under the wings and protection of God

they stones the one sent to her. what were they sent to her for? To get them to repent so he could take them under his wong.

then what Jesus said, HOW OFTEN. the important word. Jesus did not come to be there king. thus he did not come to take her under his wing, so he was not talking about present tense. He was talking past tense. Looking at their history, when he (as their lord) sent all the people to get them to see him. But they were not willing. so what was going to happen? it was going to be hidden from them. why? because they did not believe.

 

[Cobus]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I am so glad Abiding qouted this verse, and about the order and what is the POWER....

Look at that sentance again. Abiding unfortunately just qouted half the sentance, because the answers to ALL the questions about the POWER are in this sentance...

But as many as recieved Him... So every one that does will get it, and everyone that does not recieve Him will NOT get it. And ONLY they would be the sons of God. And they HAVE to believe on to HIS NAME! (So the ones that recieve Him is also the ones that BELIEVE.)
Those are the ones that was BORN NOT OF BLOOD... Does not matter if you are Israel, or not.... NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH.... Neither if you were born in ANY house/family? NOPE! ALL these people were BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD!

Look what these people ALL have in common.... THEY WERE BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD! God WANTED them born. Born of what? The will of God! What is the will of God? .... In ONE POWERFUL SENTANCE spoken by the LORD JESUS CHRIST.... MAtthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

One day is ONE DAY, then God will switch the light on in you all! Then YOU WILL KNOW! If it is God's will I be born, do you think I will NOT receive the POWER.... Power to be PERFECT. RIGHT HERE ON EARTH!

That power comes by the RECEIVING HIM//// The moment the Holy Spirit enters, I am a SON OF GOD, and PERFECT! Reborn OF GOD, and HIS WILL. with HIS SEED IN ME! That is why I CANNOT sin then, because I am NOT Born of flesh, blood or man, but of the WILL OF GOD! And God HIMSELF! Reborn=PERFECT!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I am so glad Abiding qouted this verse, and about the order and what is the POWER....

Look at that sentance again. Abiding unfortunately just qouted half the sentance, because the answers to ALL the questions about the POWER are in this sentance...

But as many as recieved Him... So every one that does will get it, and everyone that does not recieve Him will NOT get it. And ONLY they would be the sons of God. And they HAVE to believe on to HIS NAME! (So the ones that recieve Him is also the ones that BELIEVE.)
Those are the ones that was BORN NOT OF BLOOD... Does not matter if you are Israel, or not.... NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH.... Neither if you were born in ANY house/family? NOPE! ALL these people were BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD!

Look what these people ALL have in common.... THEY WERE BORN OF THE WILL OF GOD! God WANTED them born. Born of what? The will of God! What is the will of God? .... In ONE POWERFUL SENTANCE spoken by the LORD JESUS CHRIST.... MAtthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

One day is ONE DAY, then God will switch the light on in you all! Then YOU WILL KNOW! If it is God's will I be born, do you think I will NOT receive the POWER.... Power to be PERFECT. RIGHT HERE ON EARTH!

That power comes by the RECEIVING HIM//// The moment the Holy Spirit enters, I am a SON OF GOD, and PERFECT! Reborn OF GOD, and HIS WILL. with HIS SEED IN ME! That is why I CANNOT sin then, because I am NOT Born of flesh, blood or man, but of the WILL OF GOD! And God HIMSELF! Reborn=PERFECT!

no you will not be perfect here on earth. Only positionally perfect. if we could be perfect. God would not tell us to confess our sins to one another. to seek after the spirit (it would come automatically) to be on search for the devil, who comes like a lion seeking which of us he may desire. and all the other warnings God gives.

If you think you can be sinless on earth, you are in a dangerous place. because you can not see the sin in your life. and will not be able to be used by God, because it is all about you, and not God.

flee from this line of thinking.

 

[hopesprings]

What is the will of God? .... In ONE POWERFUL SENTANCE spoken by the LORD JESUS CHRIST.... MAtthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I used to wonder what God's will was for Christians. Then I came across this verse: "Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus." 1 Thess. 5:18

 

[tern]

Knowing that God is sovereign brings a whole new level to this peace we have in Christ.

what does it bring to multitudes of all those people who were not lucky enough to get elected, whose fate got decided even before they were born in this world, who feel like a glove-puppet or a toy or a splint floating in a callous river, predestined to merciless hell in a ruthless predetermination with no escape whatsoever

 

[tern]

According to Calvinism all humans have inherited a corrupt spiritual nature due to the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Due to this marred and perverse nature, the human heart is desperately deceitful, and man’s nature is evil.

“evil pervades every faculty of his soul and every sphere of his life. He is unable to do a single thing that is good”. He cannot do, understand, or desire the good: “

the corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul”

What follows from Calvinism is that due to inherited spiritual depravity, babies are born depraved with a corrupt nature. You can deny it all you want and believe whatever you like but this is just what follows from the doctrine of Calvinism.

If you say babies are not born depraved and do not have corrupt nature then you just contradict yourself……uhm but I guess that’s quite common for Calvinists

The only way for babies to be saved is for them to be one of the elect, a predetermined few whom God arbitrarily decided to save while condemning all others to hell.

Unless babies are old enough to be drawn by Father to the repentance of sins they will go to hell.

But babies can’t reason or believe or repent because they are just not old enough. Therefore all babies who died for some reason due to illness or accidents go to hell

This is just what follows from the doctrine of Calvinism.

You can deny it all you want and believe whatever you like but if you accept Calvinistic view of inherited spiritual depravity then all babies are born with depraved nature and therefore unrepented babies go to Hell.

Glory to God that Calvinism is a fallacious doctrine.

 

[zone]

EG - it looks like in many places He [forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things, whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.

John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46 but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.

Yeah, and he also was very knowledgeable of the OT prophesies. And he used this to do evil. as many do. They quote scripture to do evil. And this shows what? God used people who were not his all the time did he not? Does it mean God forced them?

it doesn't look like he was quoting scripture, EG.
it looks like he was one of the haters, who was worried about Jesus being believed on..."and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation"

"So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs.[/B] 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”

"He did not say this of his own accord.....being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation"

looks like God ordained [forced? < scary word] him to prophesy that....kinda like he could make a jackass speak.

as for Jesus not knowing who was who, He knew all along Judas was a devil. He said so. Yet He said He chose him anyway.

like, for the corridors of time thing to work, there had to be an unknown number of possiblities of ppl who would obey or believe and those who wouldn't.
like how many rehearsals in God's mind did it take? (i.e.: Judas).

~


this might be way out there, and it's strictly supposition on my part...i wonder if it's partly foreordination/predestination of very particular people (His chosen servants & prophets etc and possibly the bad guys)...then there is a general call is there anything that might support this or should i just drop it?

*ducks for cover*

strictly supposition
strictly supposition

 

[zone]

like, for the corridors of time thing to work, there had to be an unknown number of possiblities of ppl who would obey or believe and those who wouldn't.
like how many rehearsals in God's mind did it take? (i.e.: Judas).

expanding on this....in order for God to look into the corridors of time and see if Judas would believe, wouldn't there have had to be an alternate scenario(s) played out, then adjustments made based on the first outcome for Judas?

like, in Plan A for Judas - (he was given a chance, but it had to be something other than what we have written), he didn't believe, so Plan B was decided on because he didn't believe.

huh????