Revelation 20:1-10 discussion

[eternally-gratefull]

Laodicea, your interpretation of a passage, especially in Revelation, can not stand alone. Meaning you can't interpret this passage it by itself, you need the rest of the 66 books to help interpret this for you. And that goes for everything else you read in God's word. You have to interpret the unclear with what is clear.

As I showed earlier. We do take the whole 66 books into consideration.

The difference is you interpret the other 66 books different than we do, and this is why we come to our disagreement

in your interpretations, our view can;t stand because it would mean this is yet future, and not present.

in our interpretations, it can stand, because of the fact it is yet future.

But then also. the interpretation of the words bound and nations fit our interpretation quite well. Where as in your interpretations (in my view) they di not fit very well when literally interpred. for bound does not literally mean bound, and nations would not be literal nations, and all who are in them, but only saved people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is really only one thing which separates us doctrinally, the means of interpretation.

an Amill interprets prophesy symbolically

a premill interprets prophesy literally.

that is why there is such a huge devide, and why very few ill probably change.

We can not counter them when they do not take things literally. They can not counter us when we do not take things symbolically.

which is why it is not worth arguing over. I do know a few things

They can still be my brother and sister in Christ

one day we will all find out who was right. and probably laugh over this whole issue!

 

[Red33]

There is really only one thing which separates us doctrinally, the means of interpretation.

an Amill interprets prophesy symbolically

a premill interprets prophesy literally.

that is why there is such a huge devide, and why very few ill probably change.

We can not counter them when they do not take things literally. They can not counter us when we do not take things symbolically.

which is why it is not worth arguing over. I do know a few things

They can still be my brother and sister in Christ

one day we will all find out who was right. and probably laugh over this whole issue!

That is compromise without fighting the good fight of faith. Your problem is that you do not see it as a GOOD fight to uphold the truth as we have been given it. There is a reason why 'amillenialist' believe the way they do and do you not discern what this reason is? If I was to tell you that the resurrection is already passed (not Christ's) would you fight the good fight of faith or just give up and submit to this ridiculous premise that 'we can agree to disagree'? You fight the good fight because I would be misleading others into false doctrine giving them a false and erroneous understanding about our Lord and what he has revealed in His word by inspired revelation. Do you also now waiver concerning the mystery of the church and the rapture and catching away of it before the Antichrist is revealed and before great tribulation comes upon the earth?

 

[zone]

There is really only one thing which separates us doctrinally, the means of interpretation.

an Amill interprets prophesy symbolically

a premill interprets prophesy literally.

that is why there is such a huge devide, and why very few ill probably change.

We can not counter them when they do not take things literally.

hi Eg bud
Amils DO know prophesies come to pass literally.
we see all the same prophesies you do (except what some interpet as blackhawk helicopters and stuff).

its just that we see them in the allegorical; figurative; symbolic imagery certain prophets described them with.
Ken and Jack can tell us about the Hebrew language - it is Pictoral. makes word-pictures.
Revelation uses alot of it.
there are no imagery-pictures in Revelation we havent already been introduced to in the OT.

and while it is true, the method of interpretation as Abiding has said will shape your worldview, if we agree on Who Jesus is What He did for us...whats the problem.
the serious problem i see with dispensationalism is that some christians have taken part in calling for or approving of war on the State of Israels behalf. there is a lot of murder involved there, so in that regard it is worthy of reconsideration.
i love you EG
zoney

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is compromise without fighting the good fight of faith. Your problem is that you do not see it as a GOOD fight to uphold the truth as we have been given it. There is a reason why 'amillenialist' believe the way they do and do you not discern what this reason is? If I was to tell you that the resurrection is already passed (not Christ's) would you fight the good fight of faith or just give up and submit to this ridiculous premise that 'we can agree to disagree'? You fight the good fight because I would be misleading others into false doctrine giving them a false and erroneous understanding about our Lord and what he has revealed in His word by inspired revelation. Do you also now waiver concerning the mystery of the church and the rapture and catching away of it before the Antichrist is revealed and before great tribulation comes upon the earth?

No. I am not going to condemn someone to hell because they differ in view of this from where i do. You do what you want.

 

[Bookends]

bound means tied up, cast into prison, unable to do anything

Satan still decieves the nations, he still decieves the people in those nations, and he still is active decieving Gods people. that is why we all have different views on what is real and what is not. and why we keep comming up with new gospels every day it seems. Satan is still at work. meaning he is not bound.

If you compare the OT, and the teachings of Jesus, and the NT (in Jesus' day you had many demon exorcisms but very few today, except in Hollywood) you can clearly see that Satan is bound, but still active. Even the ancient Israeli Nation was blinded, but those who are saved (God's remnant) are not blind, or deceived about the essential Christian doctrine of Salvation. I make the correlation between ancient Israel and the remnant and the world (nations) and it's remnant.

Couldn't we also say that Satan himself is bound, but his minions are not? Revelation 20 never mentions the other fallen angles. Just something to think about.

 

[Bookends]

As I showed earlier. We do take the whole 66 books into consideration.

The difference is you interpret the other 66 books different than we do, and this is why we come to our disagreement

in your interpretations, our view can;t stand because it would mean this is yet future, and not present.

in our interpretations, it can stand, because of the fact it is yet future.

But then also. the interpretation of the words bound and nations fit our interpretation quite well. Where as in your interpretations (in my view) they di not fit very well when literally interpred. for bound does not literally mean bound, and nations would not be literal nations, and all who are in them, but only saved people.

But it does fit well, with what the whole bible teaches. Using the flood account, using ancient Israel as types and shadows and it's demise, and applying them to what God is doing now. My view also fits with Christ's parables on the kingdom of heaven, the mustard seed, the leaven bread (Matthew 13)...I wish I had more time to spend on this...but this site is taking away from my normal studies...

Love and peace

 

[zone]

When satan is bound he will not be able to deceive anyone. Since he is still deceiving then he is not yet bound.

Revelation 20:8
and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

hi Lao,
look at this old thread from the paleolithic era

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/26440-gog-magog.html ......click

jes something to think about.
zone

 

[zone]

If you compare the OT, and the teachings of Jesus, and the NT (in Jesus' day you had many demon exorcisms but very few today, except in Hollywood) you can clearly see that Satan is bound, but still active. Even the ancient Israeli Nation was blinded, but those who are saved (God's remnant) are not blind, or deceived about the essential Christian doctrine of Salvation. I make the correlation between ancient Israel and the remnant and the world (nations) and it's remnant.

Couldn't we also say that Satan himself is bound, but his minions are not? Revelation 20 never mentions the other fallen angles. Just something to think about.

hi Bookends.
His marvelous works which He performed because He so loved His Own (and all), were also the predicted signs of Messiah.

Matthew 11
Messengers from John the Baptist
1When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities.

2Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” 4And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepersa are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 6And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”

 

[Red33]

No. I am not going to condemn someone to hell because they differ in view of this from where i do. You do what you want.

You believe I condemn them to hell, then you have less understanding then I thought. It is a 'walking with them' issue not a salvation by grace issue. However, it takes only a little leaven to leaven the whole (1Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9). There will come a time with many that they will forget and live in unbelief they have been purged from all of their old sin that have been produced by the old sin nature of man (2Pt 1:1-9). The whole counsel of God reveals only one God and not one who is divided in counsel in the mind of Christ. 'Amillennialism' is wrong and ungodly counsel and we are not to walk in that kind of 'ungodly counsel' whether they use the scriptures to support it or not. This is what we do as believers and we don't substitute personality rapport and likability through humor for godly fellowship in the Spirit of love and truth that is based upon knowledge of sound doctrine and good judgment.

 

[Red33]

Im not following this Red are you saying that if Amil is right then your up a creek?
Do u really believe that?

Understandably it will cause a different worldview. Has a different idea who is a true jew and a true Israelite.
But to marr any fundamantal part of the gospel, our walk, or doctrines, i just cant see it happening.
What is it you see?

Is every word of God pure or not? If it is pure and we have it wrong in our understanding then it is not pure to us and it has been corrupted in us with our own understanding. That is what leaven is and it is transferred into our actions and how we obey God and with what kind of faith we obey Him. It also makes the intent of the promises of God for the church distorted. Is that what you are after being lead by the Spirit or are you after being guided into ALL truth?

 

[Abiding]

Is every word of God pure or not? If it is pure and we have it wrong in our understanding then it is not pure to us and it has been corrupted in us with our own understanding. That is what leaven is and it is transferred into our actions and how we obey God and with what kind of faith we obey Him. It also makes the intent of the promises of God for the church distorted. Is that what you are after being lead by the Spirit or are you after being guided into ALL truth?

You say: Is that what you are after being lead by the Spirit or are you after being guided into ALL truth?

huh? explain please

On the rest....i agree. Thats why I try to study Red. Ya know i could have just went with
the crowd. But it doesnt fit to well with all the scriptures

 

[Red33]

You say: Is that what you are after being lead by the Spirit or are you after being guided into ALL truth?

huh? explain please

On the rest....i agree. Thats why I try to study Red. Ya know i could have just went with
the crowd. But it doesnt fit to well with all the scriptures

Well and good!

 

[Abiding]

You believe I condemn them to hell, then you have less understanding then I thought. It is a 'walking with them' issue not a salvation by grace issue. However, it takes only a little leaven to leaven the whole (1Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9). There will come a time with many that they will forget and live in unbelief they have been purged from all of their old sin that have been produced by the old sin nature of man (2Pt 1:1-9). The whole counsel of God reveals only one God and not one who is divided in counsel in the mind of Christ. 'Amillennialism' is wrong and ungodly counsel and we are not to walk in that kind of 'ungodly counsel' whether they use the scriptures to support it or not. This is what we do as believers and we don't substitute personality rapport and likability through humor for godly fellowship in the Spirit of love and truth that is based upon knowledge of sound doctrine and good judgment.

Is Jesus sitting on Davids throne NOW?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hi Eg bud
Amils DO know prophesies come to pass literally.
we see all the same prophesies you do (except what some interpet as blackhawk helicopters and stuff).

its just that we see them in the allegorical; figurative; symbolic imagery certain prophets described them with.
Ken and Jack can tell us about the Hebrew language - it is Pictoral. makes word-pictures.
Revelation uses alot of it.
there are no imagery-pictures in Revelation we havent already been introduced to in the OT.

and while it is true, the method of interpretation as Abiding has said will shape your worldview, if we agree on Who Jesus is What He did for us...whats the problem.
the serious problem i see with dispensationalism is that some christians have taken part in calling for or approving of war on the State of Israels behalf. there is a lot of murder involved there, so in that regard it is worthy of reconsideration.
i love you EG
zoney

thats my point.

literal years mean literal years

literal covenants with literal people mean literal covenants with those people and no one else.

a literal kingdom and reign on earth where every nation bows to him, and comes to his city once a year is literal.

a literal restoration is literal.

we can go on and on.

you have to allegorize, or your belief fails. I have to take literal, or my belief fails.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you compare the OT, and the teachings of Jesus, and the NT (in Jesus' day you had many demon exorcisms but very few today, except in Hollywood) you can clearly see that Satan is bound, but still active.

and thus you just proved my point. Satan is held back (not bound) but limited in what he can do. which is why I can not come to an agreement he is bound

on who is bound according to rev 7 is bound in chains, locked up. not active in any way, and can decieve no one.

Even the ancient Israeli Nation was blinded, but those who are saved (God's remnant) are not blind, or deceived about the essential Christian doctrine of Salvation. I make the correlation between ancient Israel and the remnant and the world (nations) and it's remnant.

yes i do to. But scripture is clear. this will happen. but it says other things will happen to, that is where we differ.

Couldn't we also say that Satan himself is bound, but his minions are not? Revelation 20 never mentions the other fallen angles. Just something to think about.

yes, but an army without a leader is dead and has no power, thus has no ability to do anything. when they see god lock satan up. they are not going to try anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But it does fit well, with what the whole bible teaches. Using the flood account, using ancient Israel as types and shadows and it's demise, and applying them to what God is doing now. My view also fits with Christ's parables on the kingdom of heaven, the mustard seed, the leaven bread (Matthew 13)...I wish I had more time to spend on this...but this site is taking away from my normal studies...

Love and peace

lol. just as my belief fits well with prophesy, as I have showed over and over (maybe you have not seen them yet)

I can not with a sound mind distort matt 24, daniel 9, the prophesies of ezekial and isaiah, and romans 11 in order to make my belief come true. that is the issue we are dealing with.

 

[Abiding]

EG are you thinking that in the future kingdom fulfilling a promise as you would say
that all Israel who are in it will be saved? Every person?

According to that idea, what about the gentiles are they just there for added effect?

How can this happen and still deal with 1 cor 15 that says death has been defeated before then?

I have a zillion questions...that ive never debated....and havnt had the time here to ask

I rekon that in a way we cant look at the sufficiency of the cross, because theres more work to do.

 

[zone]

hey buddy

First, just this, cuz like you said, we've done this before but what's cool is that we're narrowing it down.
love kat.

Quote Zone:
70AD
and the people [ROMANS] of the prince [TITUS] that shall come shall destroy the city [JERUSALEM] and the sanctuary [TEMPLE]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....

1. The people of the prince who is to come will destroy. Titus himself destroyed the city, thus he can;t be the prince who is to come.

but EG - it says right here:

and the people [ROMAN SOLDIERS] of the prince [TITUS - eventually became Caesar] that shall come shall destroy the city...

Titus didn't destroy the city all by himself, he brought his "people" with him < military

and they did, right? those are Roman soldiers carrying away the spoils.
the Jewish Church went out - grew into the Worldwide Church including the Gentiles, and now there is neither jew nor greek.

Arch of Titus

Arch of Titus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

Luke 19
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70) < click

hey my sis Zone.
Gods promise was eternal. was not dependant on anyone, was an I WILL covenant, not a you do and i will, but an I will. It still stands. and according to ot prophesy, and paul in romans 11. at some date, Isreal will repent, will admit their mistakes and the mistakes of her fathers. and because of this, according to the promise of lev 26, be restored to the land she owns.

and the people [ROMAN SOLDIERS] of the prince [TITUS - eventually became Caesar] that shall come shall destroy the city...

Daniel 9 written c. 539 B.C.

"hey Daniel, you here in Babylon, alive and receiving this prophesy c. 539 yrs before Jesus: here's what shall come/happen":

and the people [ROMAN SOLDIERS] of the prince [TITUS - eventually became Caesar] that shall come shall destroy the city...

she was.
She does not posses because of her sin, but this was prophesied, but it is still hers. .

no, it's not.

they DID receive everything Promised. all of it.
including Jesus Finishing His Work on their behalf.
if it isn't Finished for them, it isn't Finished for us.

the israelites returned to the Land just as Daniel was told they would, in time for....JESUS

The King came, and the Kingdom came with Him.

Jesus declared old jerusalem desolate, there nothing at all that says He intends it to be taken by jews (Q: who is a jew?) again on His behalf. it's not there.

[anyway...certain people (not you EG) get just outraged and bent out of shape when this subject comes up - i'm not bringing their ridicule on myself today..if ppl haven't sorted this out yet, well....dunno)

New Jerusalem is the ultimate promise. the Land promise is over.
what possible good would it do to "give the Land" to unbelieving jews just so they can die there in sin and unbelief? how is that "all israel being saved"?

for ALL to mean ALL the way we are saying it means....we MUST include every single jewish person who ever lived. or else ALL does not mean ALL.

the State of Israel has zero to do with ancient Israel.
even IF today's Israelis WERE ancient Israelites (i assure you they are not), they don't accept Christ AT ALL.

jews die in sin and unbelief every single day (sadly...thanks to the Oral Traditions morphing into Talmudism).

we are not talking about salvation here/ the covenant never had anything to do with who was saved or who was not. so we can not force this interpretation into the promise.

well, here's the most severe depature in our understandings.
there's so much murder and barbarism being committed today on behalf of Israelis (by western Christians i add, to our shame), it can NOT possibly be of God - Christian Arabs are among those slaughtered and persecuted right now.

this is NOT of GOD.

i love you EG. please don't get mad...i don't want to fight.
but i am compelled to say what i know. i have to.
love zone

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG are you thinking that in the future kingdom fulfilling a promise as you would say
that all Israel who are in it will be saved? Every person?

Actually, every person on earth, whether jew or gentile will be saved at this time. Thats why Christ said whoever endures to the end will be saved. All people who followed the beast are killed by Christs return, only those who are alive at this time will be saved. But during this time, All Isreal will repent, and come to him..

According to that idea, what about the gentiles are they just there for added effect?

gentiles were saved in the OT. Whole gentile cities came to Christ (ninevah) Davids grandmother was a gentile. etc etc. it is not who is saved and who are not saved, it is who God is using to show the world his glory. In the OT, it was Isreal, in the new testament, it is the church. If we really look at it, Both have failed to really do any great good. As many people still are not saved. But in this age period. it will not be the same, isreal will be in her land, Jesus will be on davids throne, And the whole world will come once a year to worship him. This is called when Gods plan finally comes to fruition. because Christ takes over personally. As scripture says, Even animal will live in peace at this time. Gentiles will even live in peace. and the world will see a peace not seen since adam and eve fell.

How can this happen and still deal with 1 cor 15 that says death has been defeated before then?

1 cor 1: 15 is speaking of the last enemy of all people, which keeps them from god. that is death. Christ arise, thus we will arise also, our faith is based on this, and our hope (so much for those who think this is not assured and can be lost)

end times things does not deal with this..

I have a zillion questions...that ive never debated....and havnt had the time here to ask

I rekon that in a way we cant look at the sufficiency of the cross, because theres more work to do.

For salvation, Gods work is complete. For showing the WORLD his love, God still has alot to do.