What divides the Book of Daniel into 2

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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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#1
What divides the book of Daniel into 2 parts, this is of major significance and should be considered in interpreting it?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
What divides the book of Daniel into 2 parts, this is of major significance and should be considered in interpreting it?
there is much more to it than this. I am putting something together now I hope will help. Hope to have it sometime today. But I am curious as to what you mean by cuts it in 2.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#3
There's a couple ways you can do it. A classic problem is that portions are in Aramaic, portions in Hebrew. That affects canonicity for many denominations.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#4
There's a couple ways you can do it. A classic problem is that portions are in Aramaic, portions in Hebrew. That affects canonicity for many denominations.

Bingo, why is significant?
 
May 2, 2011
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#6
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#7
correction, Why is it significant?
or it could be, is it important at all? could it be that he was writting the same things to different audiences?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#8
or it could be, is it important at all? could it be that he was writting the same things to different audiences?
Why would Daniel do that? When the Jews went back to Jerusalem they brought back the Aramaic language. When Jesus uttered the words "it is finished" it was in Aramaic. So we have Daniel 1-7 in Aramaic and 8-12 in Hebrew. I don't believe each section to be saying the same thing, some things are related yes, but just a common reading of both you see differences.

I do think you have it right that Daniel had two difference audiences in mind, or rather, that he had the Jews specifically in mind when he wrote in Hebrew, chapters 8-12 (chapter 7 being a transitional chapter) and these chapters hold information that was meant only for them, in the time period of the 4 Satanic kingdoms. I can't think of any other reason why Daniel do that, since Aramaic was the common language of the whole Babylonian world in which the Jews would understand anyway. Therefore, I am hard pressed to claim that anything in Chapters 8-12 pertains to us today, except that God is sovereign and true to His word.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#9
The canonicity of the OT was decided by the Jewish rabbis in the 190's AD. One of their considerations is that nothing in a language other than Hebrew ought to be considered part of the Bible. There were several books written Greek rejected for this reason, and these parts of Daniel. In subsequent years, the Catholics accepted these books, most Protestants did not. The books are called the "Apocrypha" and are sold under separate cover, or included as an extra in some Bibles.

You can google up the texts in a couple minutes, if you would like to read them. Prayer of Azariah is the prayer supposedly said by the men in the furnace. It incroporates a miracle that the angel makes a safety zone in the middle of the fire, and has a prayer that is a little reminiscent of some of the prayers St. Francis wrote. The Bel and Dragon story is Daniel exposing false gods as what they are, very much like Houdini discredited seances. It also has Habbakuk being picked up by his hiar and flown to Babylon to feed Daniel. I have heard such a story about Philip going to evangelize the Ethiopian Eunuch, as well, based on Acts 8:39, but it is not in there that way. Susanna is a courtroom drama, where two men frame a young girl for adultery because she will not commit adultery with them. Daniel catches their lie on cross-examination.

So, should they be in the Bible? I don't like the idea of "miracles" that are made up being alongside "miracles" that actually happen. It's bad teaching for those with the gift of miracles. There is a matching non-miracle in Tobit, about using fish organs to heal blindness. It sounds like an old Edgar Cayce folk remedy. Many Christian burials from the fourth century used magic amulets, with Christian "magic words" on them to protect the people. We need to separate God's true working from superstition. Calling these texts inspired won't accomplish that goal.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
Why would Daniel do that? When the Jews went back to Jerusalem they brought back the Aramaic language. When Jesus uttered the words "it is finished" it was in Aramaic. So we have Daniel 1-7 in Aramaic and 8-12 in Hebrew. I don't believe each section to be saying the same thing, some things are related yes, but just a common reading of both you see differences.


Actually the thread I will open will show they are saying the same things, just more and more detail the further we get along. but I will leave that to that thread. (i think it would be neat if we have two threads from different perspectives instead of one where it is all garbled)

Actually I believe 1: 1 - 2:3 is also in Hebrew. as to why. I do not think we can really know why. but I would love to hear your thinking.


I do think you have it right that Daniel had two difference audiences in mind, or rather, that he had the Jews specifically in mind when he wrote in Hebrew, chapters 8-12 (chapter 7 being a transitional chapter) and these chapters hold information that was meant only for them, in the time period of the 4 Satanic kingdoms. I can't think of any other reason why Daniel do that, since Aramaic was the common language of the whole Babylonian world in which the Jews would understand anyway. Therefore, I am hard pressed to claim that anything in Chapters 8-12 pertains to us today, except that God is sovereign and true to His word.

however, I think if we study scripture as a whole. We will see that 8-12 do pertain to us today in parts. I also think 2 - 6 is speaking to the gentiles, as it applied to them. Ch 8 specifically speaks of the media persion and greek empires, and the abomination committed by Antiochus epiphanies. which would be against Isreal so it would pertain to them.so i can see your reasoning that these chapters pertain to isreal..
 
May 2, 2011
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#11
The canonicity of the OT was decided by the Jewish rabbis in the 190's AD. One of their considerations is that nothing in a language other than Hebrew ought to be considered part of the Bible. There were several books written Greek rejected for this reason, and these parts of Daniel. In subsequent years, the Catholics accepted these books, most Protestants did not. The books are called the "Apocrypha" and are sold under separate cover, or included as an extra in some Bibles.

You can google up the texts in a couple minutes, if you would like to read them. Prayer of Azariah is the prayer supposedly said by the men in the furnace. It incroporates a miracle that the angel makes a safety zone in the middle of the fire, and has a prayer that is a little reminiscent of some of the prayers St. Francis wrote. The Bel and Dragon story is Daniel exposing false gods as what they are, very much like Houdini discredited seances. It also has Habbakuk being picked up by his hiar and flown to Babylon to feed Daniel. I have heard such a story about Philip going to evangelize the Ethiopian Eunuch, as well, based on Acts 8:39, but it is not in there that way. Susanna is a courtroom drama, where two men frame a young girl for adultery because she will not commit adultery with them. Daniel catches their lie on cross-examination.

So, should they be in the Bible? I don't like the idea of "miracles" that are made up being alongside "miracles" that actually happen. It's bad teaching for those with the gift of miracles. There is a matching non-miracle in Tobit, about using fish organs to heal blindness. It sounds like an old Edgar Cayce folk remedy. Many Christian burials from the fourth century used magic amulets, with Christian "magic words" on them to protect the people. We need to separate God's true working from superstition. Calling these texts inspired won't accomplish that goal.

Miracles? The firey furnace story remains as does the lions den. Was there not 'one as the son of man' in their midst in the scriptures? Does the imagery demand a miracle any more than one needs to do astounding things to 'walk on water' as it were? There is lots of imagery still left in the Bible, and certainly we always have to be careful not to make this a magic book vis a vis, doctrine (the reason the apocrypha is left out, tho some may be valid history or allegory).

You did a nice job in your summary by the way, commentary aside. I do believe that you meant to say that some of these stories were written in Aramaic, not Greek, tho they were indeed incorporated into the LXX (I have read you opinions on that too) as Greek. We're not that far apart on this, but I would value your comments on Bel and the Dragon in the thread referenced above. I believe it is active today and the book (or one page story) is still sealed as it were to hide the coming Legalism, Phariseeism, Draconianism (Draco, the Dragon) that we see coming, often masked behind a woman (Bel).

 
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kenisyes

Guest
#12
Miracles? The firey furnace story remains as does the lions den. .

You did a nice job in your summary by the way, commentary aside. I do believe that you meant to say that some of these stories were written in Aramaic, not Greek, tho they were indeed incorporated into the LXX (I have read you opinions on that too) as Greek. We're not that far apart on this, but I would value your comments on Bel and the Dragon in the thread referenced above. I believe it is active today and the book (or one page story) is still sealed as it were to hide the coming Legalism, Phariseeism, Draconianism (Draco, the Dragon) that we see coming, often masked behind a woman (Bel).

The difference is the cold spot created in the midst of the flames. It reminds me of the folding of water in "King Cheops and the Magicians" story from Egypt; I see it as a pagan addition because of that. It's more how the pharaoh's magicians turned rods into serpents than how Moses did it.

Daniel is Aramaic. Tobit is originally Greek, or so I was taught. Since then, Aramaic portions have been found in the Dead Sea scrolls, but there is inconclusive evidence as to which was the original. I'm sticking with what I learned until proven otherwise.

Your point on the dragon is correct, as to why they were worshipping it. There is quite a bit of history one can get, tracing the snake of the garden to the dragon slain by the brave knight in shining armor of King Arthur's time. It goes through quite a few modifications to get there, and you rightfully pointed out 2 in the pictures I erased from the quote for brevity. I find nothing in the details of the dragon to tell which step of modification they are subscribing to. It appears to be an uninformed copy of dragon worship in some other country. Certainly the King of Babylon knew more about the dragon's history than is evidenced by a hollow statue of brass that can be burst by pitch, hair and fat. In fact, the lack of supporting knowledge common to Babylon makes me think the story was made up in Israel, and never really happened.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#14
The parallel nature of the prophecies in both Daniel aand Revelation is fully explained here: http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/Bifids_Chiasms.pdf
hi ellis.
no, ppl should be aware that you reverse-engineered your timeline in daniel to make the Dome of The Rock the focal point. no real precision there.
plus the sleight-of-hand on the 70th week.
but....nice seeing you again.
zone
 
May 2, 2011
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#15
Kenisyes et. al. sorry, I did not mean to lead or be led astray here. The opening post is a bit broad and
leaves room to inject about whatever one might want. While the apocryphal parts of Daniel are
interesting they are a subject of another thread other than in passing here (see the thread on Bel and
the Dragon posted above).

I would have opened the thread with an introduction rather than an allusion that might be trying to make
some implied inference. Below are a couple of outlines (there are a lot on the internet, a lot of which I
would not care to post). The Catholic Web site newadvent has a reasonable summary of the issues at
hand that I believe the O.P. was intending to get at (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Book of Daniel).

I would prefer the opening post state a premise or ask a more specific question. It's all good as it forces
me to ask my own questions and research a little more on each area, for which I am thankful. A simple
outline is below for reference, that perhaps you can address posts to and fill in with details and questions:

Outline of the Book of Daniel
I. (Chaps. 1 – 6) HISTORIC NIGHT WITH PROPHETIC LIGHT.
* Daniel Interprets Other’s Dreams (Written in the 3rd Person)

A. (Chaps. 1 - 4) THE REIGN OF NEBUCHADNEZZAR.

1. (Chap. 1) Daniel, Captive in Babylon, given a heathen name, but refused to
adopt heathen customs.

2. (Chap. 2) Daniel Interprets Nebuchadnezzar’s Vision.
The Time of the Gentiles is from Nebuchadnezzar ‘The Head of Gold,’ until the
destruction of the Image during the reign of the 10 Kings and the setting up of
the Millennial Reign by the return of Jesus Christ.

3. (Chap. 3) The Pride of Nebuchadnezzar Judged and the Deliverance of the 3
Hebrews from the Fiery Furnace.
Picture of Israel During the Tribulation.

4. (Chap. 4) The Insanity of Nebuchadnezzar revealed in the Tree Vision & Fulfiled
in History. The very best the World had to offer was crazy, insane.


B. (Chap. 5) The Reign of Belshazzar.

A Heathen Banquet interrupted by a Hand writing on the Wall.
The Judgment and Ending of the Babylonian Kingdom.
‘Head of Gold.’

C. (Chap. 6) The Reign of Darius.

Darius was the Median, who was the ‘Breast, Shoulders and Arms of
Silver.’ Daniel cast into the Lion’s Den.

II. (Chaps. 7 - 12) PROPHETIC LIGHT IN THE HISTORIC NIGHT.
Angel interprets Daniel’s Dreams (Written in the First Person).

A. (Chaps. 7 - 8) Visions During the Reign of Belshazzar.

1. (Chap. 7) The Vision of the 4 Great Carnivrous Beasts.

2. (Chap. 8) The Vision of the Ram with 2 Horns, and the
He Goat with one Notable Horn.

B. (Chap. 9) Vision of the 70 Weeks During Reign of Darius.
The 70 Weeks is one of the Key Prophecies of the Bible.
The 70th Week is yet future - - - The Tribulation Period.

C. (Chap. 10) Vision of the Glory of the Lord and the Last Days of Israel
during the Reign of Cyrus, King of Persia.

D. (Chap. 11) A Prophetic View of History from Darius into
the Immediate future, but also leaping to the ‘Time of the End.’

E. (Chap. 12) Looking Beyond the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ to the
‘Time of the End’ as it relates to Israel. The Great Tribulation.


 
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Therapon

Guest
#16
It has been known for centuries that Daniel was bifidic, i.e., penned in two languages and bifids can be proven to be parallel in time and subject from the book of Isaiah. But as far as I know, I was the first to notice that Daniel was chronologically out of order. I have been teaching the Bifidic and Chiasmic poetic forms in Daniel since 1980 and my first book on the subject, Daniel is out of (Chronological) Order, was published by Fish House Publishing in 1983.

However, this ABC=CBA structure cannot be ignored because it has a huge impact on our end-time doctrines.

A Chapter 2: The great image, Four Gentile nations who will control the holy land.
B Chapter 3: God’s people in tribulation.
C Chapter 4: Gentile rulers judged.
C Chapter 5: Gentile rulers judged.
B Chapter 6: God’s people in tribulation.
A Chapter 7: The four beasts, Four Gentile nations who will control the holy land.

As can be proven from elsewhere in Scripture, Chiasms are also parallel in nature. There are not six concepts in the above, but three concepts repeated, which shows them to be parallel in subject and time! Both As and Bs were fulfilled during "the time of the Gentiles," which ended in 1948-1967 with the restoration of Israel. Both Cs are still future.

The Hebrew section of Daniel (the second half of the bifid), is an AB=BA Chiasm, parallel in time with the first chiasm, fulfilled during the "time of the Gentiles."

The importance of this is the Bible has only one author, sovereign God! Both Daniel and Revelation are apocalyptic books, so both are probably chiasmic and bifidic, containing prophecies that are parallel in time and subject. Since that can now be proven, Revelation is not sequential prophecies primarily about our future, most have already been fulfilled during this era. Revelation’s first chiasm is shown below . . .

A Chapters 2-3: The seven churches, The Church.
B Chapter 6: The seven seals, trials on earth.
C Chapter 7:1-8 The Jewish people during the Christian era.
C Chapter 7: 9:17 The Gentile believers during the Christian era.
B Chapters 8-9 The seven trumpets, trials on earth.
C Chapter 11: The Two Witnesses, the Jewish people in the Gentile church.

All parallel in time and fulfilled during the Christian era! As I previously wrote, accepting the bifidic and chiasmic structure of the apocalyptic books makes a huge impact on our end-time doctrines. Most people don’t want to accept those changes, but they are true nonetheless.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#17
Doesn't proof of chiasmic structure depend upon showing it either for the whole book, or for a specific section of the book? This is what you have done in Daniel.

Your hypothesis is only a model for the 7 of the first 11 chapters in Revelation. [C on ch. 11 is a typo, should be A, right?] Further, Revelation is written originally in Greek. Could it not follow a Greek model of some sort instead? I would need to see the whole theory here, but right now, your structure looks forced in Revelation, since you skip chapters. Does chiasm appear in any other book of the NT? I think not. Can you show it any NT apocrypha or pseudepigrapha?

Also, the Jews and early Christians all taught that prophecies are capable of multiple fulfilment. Are you suggesting that the chiasmic structure leads us to believe that these prophecies in Daniel cannot be fulfilled again?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#18
I would need to see the whole theory here, but right now, your structure looks forced in Revelation, since you skip chapters.
it will be interesting to see this, Ken.
the timeline on Daniel was forced also.
to make the Dome of the Rock the A.O.D.
unless our friend reads and writes fluently in the original languages, there was 'help' from Talmudic rabbis.
also: daniel's 70th week magically became a different kind of week than the other 69.

we see that in dispenSensationalism of all stripes.

but of course: i know you are always objective and will discern on your own.
much close attention is needed to see how it was done.
 
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May 2, 2011
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#19
Chiasm's are cool, have you found the one in the creation story yet? What does a chiasm tell us, is it there to preserve integrity of the text for example, or is it a model of life, up the mountain, then back down the same way in reverse, etc.? EILEEN NEELIE
 
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Therapon

Guest
#20
Doesn't proof of chiasmic structure depend upon showing it either for the whole book, or for a specific section of the book? This is what you have done in Daniel.
Your hypothesis is only a model for the 7 of the first 11 chapters in Revelation. [C on ch. 11 is a typo, should be A, right?] Further, Revelation is written originally in Greek. Could it not follow a Greek model of some sort instead? I would need to see the whole theory here, but right now, your structure looks forced in Revelation, since you skip chapters. Does chiasm appear in any other book of the NT? I think not. Can you show it any NT apocrypha or pseudepigrapha?

Also, the Jews and early Christians all taught that prophecies are capable of multiple fulfilment. Are you suggesting that the chiasmic structure leads us to believe that these prophecies in Daniel cannot be fulfilled again?
Mercy, I feel like I'm teaching hermaneutics 401, LOL. A hypothesis is only a hypothesis if it can't be proven. Chiasms are all over the Bible, I'm totally amazed that you say they are not. Here are three examples . . .


Isaiah 55:8
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

A: My Thoughts



B: Are not
Your thoughts



B: Neither are
Your ways



A: My ways Sayeth the Lord.



Mark 5:3-5 "Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones."

A Who had his dwelling among the tombs;
B and no man could bind him,


C no, not with chains:


C he had been bound with chains,


B neither could any man tame him.


A And always he was in the tombs...


Acts 17:24-25 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."

A God that made the world and all things therein,
B He is Lord of heaven and earth,


C Dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


C Neither is worshipped with men's hands,


B He giveth to all life, and breath,


A And all things.

The 1st and 2nd half of Revelation are the same type of srtructures in that both are chiasmic, however the 2nd Chiaasm is a bit more complex than the first . . .


1ST Chiasm


A
ch. 2-3 The Seven Churches, The Church



B ch. 6 The Seven Seals, Christian era trials


C ch. 7:4-8 The 144,000, 12 Tribes of Israel


C ch. 7:9-14 A Great Multitude ,The Gentile Church


B ch. 8-9 The Seven Trumpets, Christian Era trials


A ch. 11 The Two Witnesses, The Church


2ND Chiasm

A ch.12 Woman with 12 Stars, Jews during this Era



B ch.13 Leopard, Lion, Bear Beast Satanic Kingdom


ba ch.14 144,000 & The Gospel, All the Redeemed
C ch.15 Song of Moses and Lamb, Jew & Gentile Redeemed


C ch.16 Bowls of Wrath, Wrath for the Wicked


B ch.17 Seven Headed Beast, Satanic Kingdoms


ba ch.18 Babylon, All the Lost
A ch.20 The Thousand Years, Gentile Church Era


But if you'd rather not accept the validity of the 1st chiasm, you are even less likely to accept the validity of the 2nd. <wry smile> The proof of the repatitive bifidic (split in two halves) form of Revelation is actually found in Chs. 5 and 10.


Revelation 5:7 &#8220;And he (Jesus) came
and took the book out of the right
hand of him that sat upon the
throne.&#8221;
God the Father gives the &#8220;little
book&#8221; of Revelation to Jesus, who
then reads about the Seven seals, the
Seven Trumpets the 144 Thousand,
and the Two Witnesses.

Revelation 10:10-11 &#8220;And I (John) took
the little book out of the angel's (Jesus&#8217;)


hand, and ate it up; And he
said unto me, thou must prophesy
again .&#8221; (Note the again!)



Jesus gives Revelation to John who
then reads about the woman with 12
stars, the three great beasts, the Holy
City and Babylon the Great.

So just like Daniel, Revelation is bifidic! As a result, the twelve prophecies in Revelation are parallel and concurrent, fulfilled during the Christian era! I did not ignore Chapter 8-9, the seven trumpets nor chapter 10, which is not included in the structure because it is a parenthetic.


 
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