Come Let Us Reason Together
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The bottom line is that you truly believe that an individual CAN WILLFULLY ENGAGE in sinful behaviour and not surely die. That is the base bottom line of all of this.
You believe that God has made an allowance for this to occur through your understanding of the Gospel whereby the ongoing rebel, still in bondage to the lusts of their flesh, has been cloaked by the legal transaction commonly taught as the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
This is why in all your responses you have not addressed a SINGLE TIME this scripture...
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
And how it applies in context with the REASON that people sin...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The Biblical teaching of repentance, in your theology, is not connected with the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires, whereby once those passions and desires have been crucified they are no longer yielded to.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Therefore there is no "escaping from the corruption in the world through lust" through "dying with Christ in repentance" in your gospel.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
HAVE CRUCIFIED, HAVING ESCAPED, CEASED FROM SIN, NOT SERVE SIN, FREED FROM SIN.
None of that is in your Gospel. Instead your gospel makes an allowance for an individual to be saved WHILE they remain addicted to the passions and desires and continue to walk in carnality. You will just say things like this...
Thus because you believe that a change of conduct IS NOT reflective as to whether an individual has come to an authentic salvation you are forced to deny the plain teachings of scripture.
You have the Prodigal Son being forgiven and restored whilst still in rebellion in the pig pen. You have to ignore all those verses I quoted in my first post in the context of repentance. You even speak out of both sides of your mouth by saying "those scriptures are correct" but then you will completely deny them by holding to the position that the sinful conduct does not have to be forsaken BEFORE mercy and forgiveness is granted.
Look at this response from earlier...
Where is the grain of wheat dying that it may bring forth much fruit?
Where is the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires?
Where is the old man being crucified with Christ that we should no longer serve (yield) to sin?
The gospel you believe has completely eliminated the basic fundamental of what repentance is supposed to produce. Thus a convert under your gospel does not have to pluck out the eye or cut off the hand (in a figurative sense), as Jesus taught, in order to be singly focused on God. No, under your Gospel the convert can remain in a double-minded state of attempting to walk after the Spirit while they remain carnal and sold under sin, still yielding to the passions and desires which have NEVER been crucified.
Thus you have a FORM of Christianity where all the converts exist in a carnal state waiting on God to clean them up because they do not have any understanding that God commands them to repent and forsake their rebellion through the process of godly sorrow which works the change of mind necessary for a true conversion to take place.
It's a FORM of Christianity that will defend sin and ongoing rebellion every single time. "Ye shall not surely die" it teaches because "you have been cloaked by the imputed righteousness of Jesus" and therefore God pretends that you are not filthy and wicked because He only sees Jesus. Even though Jesus NEVER TAUGHT that His obedience was going to be transferred to anyone's account, you'll believe it anyway.
By disconnecting the fruit of an individuals conduct from the root of the tree modern professing Christianity has more in common with Gnostic Philosophy than it does with that the Bible actually teaches. While the pastors may appeal to Jesus and His death on the cross they will completely deny His teachings.
Pick up your cross, deny yourself, follow me, lose your life, count the cost, strive to enter in at the straight gate, few will be saved, go and sin no more, put your hand to the plow and don't turn back, many will cry Lord, Lord and be rejected etc. All rejected as mandatory instructions and instead treated as supplemental advice "after" one is saved. To teach that those things that Jesus taught are "mandatory" is "dangerous" in your mind.
In your mind it is dangerous to tell a thief that he has to forsake his sin and turn to God through a broken repentance where his old man is crucified with Christ that he then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life an empowered to walk a pure and holy life whereby he can grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
You'll teach...
Salvation to you is an abstract position whereby the wrath of God has been offset but the bondage can continue. Thus salvation to you does not involve actually being SET FREE from the BONDAGE of sin. You believe that an individual can be saved and yet still in bondage at the same time.
Even though Jesus came to save people from their sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Even though Jesus taught that if you sin you are its slave and that He can set you free indeed.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
You'll still believe that a drunk can be "saved from his sin" and yet still be a "slave to his sin."
Which is pretty much the normal teaching in all the churches today, when questioned the Pastors clearly reveal that they believe that a sinner can still be engaged in murder, lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, molesting and enter the kingdom. God simply has not cleaned them up yet but they are PROVISIONALLY saved. They have the LEGAL TRANSACTION of salvation.
When corresponding with Pastors it does not take them long to admit what they truly believe. Look at the following comment made by a Pastor from a local Baptist church in my town after an exchange we had.
He has no conception whatsoever in his mind that salvation has anything to do with actually being set free from the bondage of sin.
Again, the bottom line, when all the rhetoric is stripped away is that you, and all these pastors, believe that YOU CAN SIN and NOT SURELY DIE. You would have to agree with this statement otherwise you would have to assert that all the known willful sins of the flesh actually cease as a result of a genuine repentance.
You even have even gone so far, as I alluded above, to claim that teaching that repentance is proven by deeds (where there is a death of self involved where one's natural passions and desires are denied resulting in an actual change of conduct) is in fact dangerous.
You made this statement...
You imply there is no love in what I say. You could not be more wrong. Much of my work is in the context of directly exposing the underlying error of a modern Christianity which has completely thrown Biblical repentance out the window. The error must be exposed because it has put millions of people into a comatose state where they are "poor, blind and naked" and they "know it not."
Jesus came rebuking sin, calling all men everywhere to repent. Jesus spoke of the love of God and that through abiding in Him that that love could be made manifest through us. There is a joy in loving God and loving your neighbour and knowing that you have been reconciled with our Creator through repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet with this joy comes great concern and sorrow in regards to the state of all those who are lost and are in desperate need for a Saviour.
Jesus warned of the wolves who would come that would appear as lambs. Paul gave similar warnings as did Peter and Jude. Those wolves are here and they are everywhere and they are deceiving the vast majority of those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord. They are preaching a message that gives the people a false assurance that they can be in a justified state, reconciled to God, whilst they still remain disobedient and in rebellion. It is by love that I spend my time earnestly trying contend for the faith once delivered. I also spend a lot of time in prayer reflecting on how to best approach people with this information, trying to get into the mind of those who have bought the lie, so as to best address and cast down the strongholds which keep people in bondage.
It is not love to coddle a sinner in his rebellion and tell him that God will clean you up some time down the road but in the meanwhile just rest in your assurance that you are saved. They have not been saved from anything except perhaps the conviction wrought by their conscience which the false gospel serves to sear. That kind of "love" is going to result in the destruction of that soul in the Lake of Fire. All through the Bible the men and woman of God stood firm against sin and upheld the necessity for holy conduct. A soul MUST FORSAKE REBELLION otherwise that soul will MOST CERTAINLY PERISH. The rebellion is forsaken through repentance and it is only then that God will imbue an individual with that manifest power that raised Jesus from the dead whereby we can walk a pure and blameless life (from the heart) before our Father.
You say...
Paul taught this...
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
John taught this...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Yet you'll tell a drunk who cannot stop his excess drinking that he is saved even though the Bible teaches the opposite. A drunkard IS NOT keeping the commandments of Jesus. A drunkard HAS NOT crucified his flesh with its passions and desires. The drunkard is still yielding to the flesh and walking in carnality.
By your very own admission, you would accuse someone as being an agent of Satan, an accuser of the brethren, if they were to call a professing Christian who was engaged in willful sin (drunkenness in your example) to forsake that sin and yield to God lest they perish.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
You believe that God has made an allowance for this to occur through your understanding of the Gospel whereby the ongoing rebel, still in bondage to the lusts of their flesh, has been cloaked by the legal transaction commonly taught as the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
This is why in all your responses you have not addressed a SINGLE TIME this scripture...
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
And how it applies in context with the REASON that people sin...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The Biblical teaching of repentance, in your theology, is not connected with the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires, whereby once those passions and desires have been crucified they are no longer yielded to.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Therefore there is no "escaping from the corruption in the world through lust" through "dying with Christ in repentance" in your gospel.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
HAVE CRUCIFIED, HAVING ESCAPED, CEASED FROM SIN, NOT SERVE SIN, FREED FROM SIN.
None of that is in your Gospel. Instead your gospel makes an allowance for an individual to be saved WHILE they remain addicted to the passions and desires and continue to walk in carnality. You will just say things like this...
Thus because you believe that a change of conduct IS NOT reflective as to whether an individual has come to an authentic salvation you are forced to deny the plain teachings of scripture.
You have the Prodigal Son being forgiven and restored whilst still in rebellion in the pig pen. You have to ignore all those verses I quoted in my first post in the context of repentance. You even speak out of both sides of your mouth by saying "those scriptures are correct" but then you will completely deny them by holding to the position that the sinful conduct does not have to be forsaken BEFORE mercy and forgiveness is granted.
Look at this response from earlier...
Where is the grain of wheat dying that it may bring forth much fruit?
Where is the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires?
Where is the old man being crucified with Christ that we should no longer serve (yield) to sin?
The gospel you believe has completely eliminated the basic fundamental of what repentance is supposed to produce. Thus a convert under your gospel does not have to pluck out the eye or cut off the hand (in a figurative sense), as Jesus taught, in order to be singly focused on God. No, under your Gospel the convert can remain in a double-minded state of attempting to walk after the Spirit while they remain carnal and sold under sin, still yielding to the passions and desires which have NEVER been crucified.
Thus you have a FORM of Christianity where all the converts exist in a carnal state waiting on God to clean them up because they do not have any understanding that God commands them to repent and forsake their rebellion through the process of godly sorrow which works the change of mind necessary for a true conversion to take place.
It's a FORM of Christianity that will defend sin and ongoing rebellion every single time. "Ye shall not surely die" it teaches because "you have been cloaked by the imputed righteousness of Jesus" and therefore God pretends that you are not filthy and wicked because He only sees Jesus. Even though Jesus NEVER TAUGHT that His obedience was going to be transferred to anyone's account, you'll believe it anyway.
By disconnecting the fruit of an individuals conduct from the root of the tree modern professing Christianity has more in common with Gnostic Philosophy than it does with that the Bible actually teaches. While the pastors may appeal to Jesus and His death on the cross they will completely deny His teachings.
Pick up your cross, deny yourself, follow me, lose your life, count the cost, strive to enter in at the straight gate, few will be saved, go and sin no more, put your hand to the plow and don't turn back, many will cry Lord, Lord and be rejected etc. All rejected as mandatory instructions and instead treated as supplemental advice "after" one is saved. To teach that those things that Jesus taught are "mandatory" is "dangerous" in your mind.
In your mind it is dangerous to tell a thief that he has to forsake his sin and turn to God through a broken repentance where his old man is crucified with Christ that he then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life an empowered to walk a pure and holy life whereby he can grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
You'll teach...
Salvation to you is an abstract position whereby the wrath of God has been offset but the bondage can continue. Thus salvation to you does not involve actually being SET FREE from the BONDAGE of sin. You believe that an individual can be saved and yet still in bondage at the same time.
Even though Jesus came to save people from their sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Even though Jesus taught that if you sin you are its slave and that He can set you free indeed.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
You'll still believe that a drunk can be "saved from his sin" and yet still be a "slave to his sin."
Which is pretty much the normal teaching in all the churches today, when questioned the Pastors clearly reveal that they believe that a sinner can still be engaged in murder, lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, molesting and enter the kingdom. God simply has not cleaned them up yet but they are PROVISIONALLY saved. They have the LEGAL TRANSACTION of salvation.
When corresponding with Pastors it does not take them long to admit what they truly believe. Look at the following comment made by a Pastor from a local Baptist church in my town after an exchange we had.
He has no conception whatsoever in his mind that salvation has anything to do with actually being set free from the bondage of sin.
Again, the bottom line, when all the rhetoric is stripped away is that you, and all these pastors, believe that YOU CAN SIN and NOT SURELY DIE. You would have to agree with this statement otherwise you would have to assert that all the known willful sins of the flesh actually cease as a result of a genuine repentance.
You even have even gone so far, as I alluded above, to claim that teaching that repentance is proven by deeds (where there is a death of self involved where one's natural passions and desires are denied resulting in an actual change of conduct) is in fact dangerous.
You made this statement...
You imply there is no love in what I say. You could not be more wrong. Much of my work is in the context of directly exposing the underlying error of a modern Christianity which has completely thrown Biblical repentance out the window. The error must be exposed because it has put millions of people into a comatose state where they are "poor, blind and naked" and they "know it not."
Jesus came rebuking sin, calling all men everywhere to repent. Jesus spoke of the love of God and that through abiding in Him that that love could be made manifest through us. There is a joy in loving God and loving your neighbour and knowing that you have been reconciled with our Creator through repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet with this joy comes great concern and sorrow in regards to the state of all those who are lost and are in desperate need for a Saviour.
Jesus warned of the wolves who would come that would appear as lambs. Paul gave similar warnings as did Peter and Jude. Those wolves are here and they are everywhere and they are deceiving the vast majority of those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord. They are preaching a message that gives the people a false assurance that they can be in a justified state, reconciled to God, whilst they still remain disobedient and in rebellion. It is by love that I spend my time earnestly trying contend for the faith once delivered. I also spend a lot of time in prayer reflecting on how to best approach people with this information, trying to get into the mind of those who have bought the lie, so as to best address and cast down the strongholds which keep people in bondage.
It is not love to coddle a sinner in his rebellion and tell him that God will clean you up some time down the road but in the meanwhile just rest in your assurance that you are saved. They have not been saved from anything except perhaps the conviction wrought by their conscience which the false gospel serves to sear. That kind of "love" is going to result in the destruction of that soul in the Lake of Fire. All through the Bible the men and woman of God stood firm against sin and upheld the necessity for holy conduct. A soul MUST FORSAKE REBELLION otherwise that soul will MOST CERTAINLY PERISH. The rebellion is forsaken through repentance and it is only then that God will imbue an individual with that manifest power that raised Jesus from the dead whereby we can walk a pure and blameless life (from the heart) before our Father.
You say...
Paul taught this...
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
John taught this...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Yet you'll tell a drunk who cannot stop his excess drinking that he is saved even though the Bible teaches the opposite. A drunkard IS NOT keeping the commandments of Jesus. A drunkard HAS NOT crucified his flesh with its passions and desires. The drunkard is still yielding to the flesh and walking in carnality.
By your very own admission, you would accuse someone as being an agent of Satan, an accuser of the brethren, if they were to call a professing Christian who was engaged in willful sin (drunkenness in your example) to forsake that sin and yield to God lest they perish.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
No I didn't, I attempted to address your basic premise by stating that I have much to learn in regards to many things.
Specifically your questions were...
Where is your baptism sponsors, the prophetic discernment, and the fasting for each person, before he accepts salvation? Where is the wandering prophet and apostle? Your premise of "accepts salvation" is in error. Where does the Bible teach that one "accepts salvation" ?????? Baptism sponsors, prophetic discernment, fasting are all irrelevant if you are preaching you get "saved in your sins" and that "you can sin and not surely die." Where is the wandering prophet or apostle? You tell me. Yet what does that have to do with the forsaking of rebellion in repentance which the early church clearly taught. You have asked questions which have NOTHING to do with the underlying premise of my posts. It's a tangent which steps away from the fundamental issues I am raising here and that is in the context of when does the rebellion to God ceasing.
Specifically your questions were...
Where is your baptism sponsors, the prophetic discernment, and the fasting for each person, before he accepts salvation? Where is the wandering prophet and apostle? Your premise of "accepts salvation" is in error. Where does the Bible teach that one "accepts salvation" ?????? Baptism sponsors, prophetic discernment, fasting are all irrelevant if you are preaching you get "saved in your sins" and that "you can sin and not surely die." Where is the wandering prophet or apostle? You tell me. Yet what does that have to do with the forsaking of rebellion in repentance which the early church clearly taught. You have asked questions which have NOTHING to do with the underlying premise of my posts. It's a tangent which steps away from the fundamental issues I am raising here and that is in the context of when does the rebellion to God ceasing.
Do you sin?
A very common question which is often used to draw a response which can be used against those who preach "Go and Sin No More!"
How can it be used against people? Well if no distinction is made between willful rebellion (presumptuous sin) and sins committed through ignorance then all sin is painted as the same. Thus without this distinction one is either "perfect" or a "filthy sinner" hence the often appeal to the "sinless perfection" strawman. The Bible specifically makes a distinction between different types of sin. Those who profess Jesus and are rejected by Jesus at the judgement are workers of iniquity. The Bible clearly teaches that those who name the name of Christ are to depart from iniquity, which means the iniquity has to cease.
Without the distinction being made the person asking the question will often have a different definition of sin than the person being asked. Thus to "stop sin" to one person means "sinless perfection" to the other. Pure fallacy.
Is sin "missing the mark" and "falling short of the glory to God?" If that is the case then we all sin because none of us are God and we all have a limited understanding of things and are thus very prone to err. I sin in this way very often and God often brings it to my attention and corrects me. Many times I have been a little to quick to make a judgement about something only to realise that I should have taken a little more time to understand where someone was coming from. There are times when I have been in a hurry in regards to something and have been neglectful. There are times where I have shown indifference due to a faulty presumption on my part. So do I sin? Indeed I do and when I do I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ acting on my behalf. Yet are those sins acts of rebellion to God? No. Are these sins acts of carnality in walking after the flesh so as to gratify my passions and desires in violation of my conscience? No.
The Bible actually defines sin specifically in several places.
John defined it as transgression and put it in the following context...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
In the context of "sin as transgression" John teaches that those who are born of God do not "COMMIT" sin but he teaches that those who "COMMIT" sin are of the devil. In verse 1Joh 3:10 he speaks of an outward manifestation of conduct which defines who is a child of the devil and who is child of God. Those who do not manifest righteousness in their lives are not of God and that he who DOES what is right is righteous. Jesus taught the exact same thing when he taught that a tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Which is why God will judge people by their deeds (fruit). Eternal life to those who yield to God and produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives and indignation to those who are disobedient and self-willed.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
It is also important to notice that the switch from one state occurs through repentance.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
James describes sin as violating one's conscience...
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Which is a parallel to what Paul wrote...
Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
God calls us to walk by faith trusting in Him as we yield to His instruction from a pure heart. We have a confidence in doing this for God is the Creator and all things proceed from Him. When we align ourselves with the will of God as to the best of our ability and knowledge we have a clear conscience and we know we are right with our Father.
Paul taught of this walk in this life when he wrote...
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Yet can one walk in this faith if one is still in rebellion to God? No they cannot for what is not of faith is sin, one cannot be in violation of their conscience, doing that which they know is wrong, and have a clear conscience before God.
This is why the author of the Hebrews made the following statement...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
If one is truthful they know they cannot engage in willful rebellion to God and not have a fearful expectation of judgement. One can most certainly quell this fear by turning to doctrines which tickle the ears thus suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
To twist repentance into "not wanting to rebel yet persisting in it regardless" is an abomination to God. As I have said many times before if an adulterous husband says that he is sorry for his adultery yet persists in doing it then there is no genuine sorrow. For reconciliation between a husband and wife to take place the adultery must be completely forsaken, anything less is abominable. It is no different with God.
So do I sin? Non-presumptuously yes I do.
Willfully. No I don't. My rebellion to God ceased when I was broken in godly sorrow and brought to a genuine repentance whereby God raised me up to newness of life.
Saints are not sinners.
Paul warned the saints to not be deceived into believing that they could engage in unrighteous conduct and still enter into the kingdom of heaven.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
A very common question which is often used to draw a response which can be used against those who preach "Go and Sin No More!"
How can it be used against people? Well if no distinction is made between willful rebellion (presumptuous sin) and sins committed through ignorance then all sin is painted as the same. Thus without this distinction one is either "perfect" or a "filthy sinner" hence the often appeal to the "sinless perfection" strawman. The Bible specifically makes a distinction between different types of sin. Those who profess Jesus and are rejected by Jesus at the judgement are workers of iniquity. The Bible clearly teaches that those who name the name of Christ are to depart from iniquity, which means the iniquity has to cease.
Without the distinction being made the person asking the question will often have a different definition of sin than the person being asked. Thus to "stop sin" to one person means "sinless perfection" to the other. Pure fallacy.
Is sin "missing the mark" and "falling short of the glory to God?" If that is the case then we all sin because none of us are God and we all have a limited understanding of things and are thus very prone to err. I sin in this way very often and God often brings it to my attention and corrects me. Many times I have been a little to quick to make a judgement about something only to realise that I should have taken a little more time to understand where someone was coming from. There are times when I have been in a hurry in regards to something and have been neglectful. There are times where I have shown indifference due to a faulty presumption on my part. So do I sin? Indeed I do and when I do I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ acting on my behalf. Yet are those sins acts of rebellion to God? No. Are these sins acts of carnality in walking after the flesh so as to gratify my passions and desires in violation of my conscience? No.
The Bible actually defines sin specifically in several places.
John defined it as transgression and put it in the following context...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
In the context of "sin as transgression" John teaches that those who are born of God do not "COMMIT" sin but he teaches that those who "COMMIT" sin are of the devil. In verse 1Joh 3:10 he speaks of an outward manifestation of conduct which defines who is a child of the devil and who is child of God. Those who do not manifest righteousness in their lives are not of God and that he who DOES what is right is righteous. Jesus taught the exact same thing when he taught that a tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Which is why God will judge people by their deeds (fruit). Eternal life to those who yield to God and produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives and indignation to those who are disobedient and self-willed.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
It is also important to notice that the switch from one state occurs through repentance.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
James describes sin as violating one's conscience...
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Which is a parallel to what Paul wrote...
Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
God calls us to walk by faith trusting in Him as we yield to His instruction from a pure heart. We have a confidence in doing this for God is the Creator and all things proceed from Him. When we align ourselves with the will of God as to the best of our ability and knowledge we have a clear conscience and we know we are right with our Father.
Paul taught of this walk in this life when he wrote...
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Yet can one walk in this faith if one is still in rebellion to God? No they cannot for what is not of faith is sin, one cannot be in violation of their conscience, doing that which they know is wrong, and have a clear conscience before God.
This is why the author of the Hebrews made the following statement...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
If one is truthful they know they cannot engage in willful rebellion to God and not have a fearful expectation of judgement. One can most certainly quell this fear by turning to doctrines which tickle the ears thus suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
To twist repentance into "not wanting to rebel yet persisting in it regardless" is an abomination to God. As I have said many times before if an adulterous husband says that he is sorry for his adultery yet persists in doing it then there is no genuine sorrow. For reconciliation between a husband and wife to take place the adultery must be completely forsaken, anything less is abominable. It is no different with God.
So do I sin? Non-presumptuously yes I do.
Willfully. No I don't. My rebellion to God ceased when I was broken in godly sorrow and brought to a genuine repentance whereby God raised me up to newness of life.
Saints are not sinners.
Paul warned the saints to not be deceived into believing that they could engage in unrighteous conduct and still enter into the kingdom of heaven.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
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James wasn't addressing the faith in Jesus Christ in regards to our salvation. James was addressing the misuse of verbalizing faith in God's Providence to the poor by getting out of helping the poor that may be perishing from the elements and from starvation just so they would not have to give anything from the bounty God has provided tothe church that day.
James was already addressing this abuse earlier in the chapter of the church disrespecting the poor.
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
James went further in showing how they were despising the poor. Context is everything in getting the message James was conveying here.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Note the use of the term "profit". In context, James is referring about what profits the poor in saving the poor if the church that verbalized the departing benediction of faith in His Providence to the poor will not lead by example to the poor of the church's faith in His Providence by meeting their needs today.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
So in other words, they were not righteous nor justified before God for verbalizing faith in His Providence to the poor when the church was failing to lead by example of that faith in His Providence because they were despising the poor.
Note how James referenced Abraham of that particular event of offering Isaac upon the altar by faith. By faith in what? In His Providence to provide. Every Jew knows that is what that moment in the Bible was all about because of how Abraham named that place that testified of that event. Note what Abraham said to Isaac before that offering.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Now note how Abraham named the place testifying to his faith in how God provides.
Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
Believers can apply faith in God will heal them, and so it is this misapplication of applying faith in His Providence that James was addressing when the church was not leading by example because they were despising the poor by verbalizing faith in His Providence to get out of helping the poor.
It is that verbalization of faith in His Providence to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church was not leading by example of that faith in His Providence by meeting their immediate needs today and thereby trusting God tomorrow for the needs of the church.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So as Rahab had shown her belief in the God of Israelites by helping the two messengers escape to provide for her escape, so should the church that believes in His Providence should lead by example that He will provide for the church.
It was never about faith in Jesus Christ in regards to a believer's salvation, but the abuse of applying faith in His Providence to the poor as if by saying "be warmed & be filled" to the poor, will mean the church actually believe God will do it for the poor, and yet the church is unwilling to despense from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that day to really believe in His Providence for the church tomorrow.
So it was the church's sinful use of faith in His Providence that was not going to profit the poor nor save the poor. The church was not justified nor righteous for doing that. It does not mean the church was not saved, but that the church was not justified nor righteous for using faith in His Providence in that manner just to get out of helping the poor because they were despising the poor.
James was already addressing this abuse earlier in the chapter of the church disrespecting the poor.
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
James went further in showing how they were despising the poor. Context is everything in getting the message James was conveying here.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Note the use of the term "profit". In context, James is referring about what profits the poor in saving the poor if the church that verbalized the departing benediction of faith in His Providence to the poor will not lead by example to the poor of the church's faith in His Providence by meeting their needs today.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
So in other words, they were not righteous nor justified before God for verbalizing faith in His Providence to the poor when the church was failing to lead by example of that faith in His Providence because they were despising the poor.
Note how James referenced Abraham of that particular event of offering Isaac upon the altar by faith. By faith in what? In His Providence to provide. Every Jew knows that is what that moment in the Bible was all about because of how Abraham named that place that testified of that event. Note what Abraham said to Isaac before that offering.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Now note how Abraham named the place testifying to his faith in how God provides.
Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
Believers can apply faith in God will heal them, and so it is this misapplication of applying faith in His Providence that James was addressing when the church was not leading by example because they were despising the poor by verbalizing faith in His Providence to get out of helping the poor.
It is that verbalization of faith in His Providence to the poor that will not profit the poor nor save the poor when in the eyes of the poor, the church was not leading by example of that faith in His Providence by meeting their immediate needs today and thereby trusting God tomorrow for the needs of the church.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So as Rahab had shown her belief in the God of Israelites by helping the two messengers escape to provide for her escape, so should the church that believes in His Providence should lead by example that He will provide for the church.
It was never about faith in Jesus Christ in regards to a believer's salvation, but the abuse of applying faith in His Providence to the poor as if by saying "be warmed & be filled" to the poor, will mean the church actually believe God will do it for the poor, and yet the church is unwilling to despense from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that day to really believe in His Providence for the church tomorrow.
So it was the church's sinful use of faith in His Providence that was not going to profit the poor nor save the poor. The church was not justified nor righteous for doing that. It does not mean the church was not saved, but that the church was not justified nor righteous for using faith in His Providence in that manner just to get out of helping the poor because they were despising the poor.
That repentance is referring to repenting from unbelief since believing has always been the condition for which a sinner is saved by grace in Jesus Christ.
When a sinner is asked to repent from his sins, that will run the risk of them missing the hope in Jesus Christ when placing that emphasis on them to do it. Remember: a sinner is a slave to sin and sin is dominating his life. He is being honest in not seeing it in himself to turn from his sins, and so the emphasis on the sinner to repent from all of his sins is going to lead the sinner away from Him.
If we could not save ourselves, then turning from our sins to save ourselves is somewhat not the gospel we preach. Since by believing in Him as our Saviour is how we are saved, then what we lean on Him for in witnessing is the hope in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to deliver the sinner from the bondage to sin and to death.
No amount of commitment nor promises nor a simple decision of "I will" is of the gospel. It is applying faith and hope in Jesus Christ that "He will do it".
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Look at how even by believing in His name, a sinner is saved.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is why Jesus commanded His disciples to teach other believer to be His disciples so that they may continue in His words to bear fruit and that their joy remain with them by living by faith in the Son of God.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
So if any believer out there has been trying to live religiously the christian life by keeping his commitment or promises to Jesus Christ, I suggest that you ask Him to set you free from that yoke of bondage and rest in Him and His promises to you that He will set you free by laying aside every weight ( provisions for the flesh) and sin so you can run that race in being His disciple in fellowshipping with Him as He is in us always to walk with us through this valley of death.
That is the only way any believer can get to know Him when you learn of His words & His promises to you to rest in Him in taking Him at His word that He will help you to follow Him as your Good Shepherd as you rest in Him that you are saved simply when you had believed in Him as the Saviour.
So may Jesus Christ help us to be clear in our witness so that repentance means to turn from unbelief by believing in Him while sharing our hope in Him that He will deliver them from their bondage to sin and to death so that they rest in that hope alos that He will help them to follow Him because He is the Good Shepherd as well as the Saviour.
When a sinner is asked to repent from his sins, that will run the risk of them missing the hope in Jesus Christ when placing that emphasis on them to do it. Remember: a sinner is a slave to sin and sin is dominating his life. He is being honest in not seeing it in himself to turn from his sins, and so the emphasis on the sinner to repent from all of his sins is going to lead the sinner away from Him.
If we could not save ourselves, then turning from our sins to save ourselves is somewhat not the gospel we preach. Since by believing in Him as our Saviour is how we are saved, then what we lean on Him for in witnessing is the hope in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to deliver the sinner from the bondage to sin and to death.
No amount of commitment nor promises nor a simple decision of "I will" is of the gospel. It is applying faith and hope in Jesus Christ that "He will do it".
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Look at how even by believing in His name, a sinner is saved.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is why Jesus commanded His disciples to teach other believer to be His disciples so that they may continue in His words to bear fruit and that their joy remain with them by living by faith in the Son of God.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
So if any believer out there has been trying to live religiously the christian life by keeping his commitment or promises to Jesus Christ, I suggest that you ask Him to set you free from that yoke of bondage and rest in Him and His promises to you that He will set you free by laying aside every weight ( provisions for the flesh) and sin so you can run that race in being His disciple in fellowshipping with Him as He is in us always to walk with us through this valley of death.
That is the only way any believer can get to know Him when you learn of His words & His promises to you to rest in Him in taking Him at His word that He will help you to follow Him as your Good Shepherd as you rest in Him that you are saved simply when you had believed in Him as the Saviour.
So may Jesus Christ help us to be clear in our witness so that repentance means to turn from unbelief by believing in Him while sharing our hope in Him that He will deliver them from their bondage to sin and to death so that they rest in that hope alos that He will help them to follow Him because He is the Good Shepherd as well as the Saviour.
Then go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus Christ for discernment as to what is in your life that is being a provision for the flesh and ask Him for help to lay it aside.
It could be television: music: media: anything: He will help you to discern that so as to lay it aside and avoid it. Even our thoughts need His help & His workmanship to deliver us a certain times. Scripture has been a help in finding the strength & motivation I need to go before that throne of grace for help.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Romans 13:14But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Like it or not, christians are being persecuted passively in USA by the materialism & the rat race of society. The temptations are many of which I dare say, going to church one Sunday a week is not enough for all the lies and the temptations this world is throwing at us.
If christians were physically persecuted in America, how many would have an underground fellowship for more than one day out of a week? For those that would say more than one day, then how much pressing is it now when there is a falling away from the faith?
Still, the point here is how much we need Him as our Good Shepherd and not just as our Saviour.
2 Corinthians 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 4:3030 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Make no mistake: we can only live this christian life by faith in the Son of God in us.
Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
It could be television: music: media: anything: He will help you to discern that so as to lay it aside and avoid it. Even our thoughts need His help & His workmanship to deliver us a certain times. Scripture has been a help in finding the strength & motivation I need to go before that throne of grace for help.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Romans 13:14But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Like it or not, christians are being persecuted passively in USA by the materialism & the rat race of society. The temptations are many of which I dare say, going to church one Sunday a week is not enough for all the lies and the temptations this world is throwing at us.
If christians were physically persecuted in America, how many would have an underground fellowship for more than one day out of a week? For those that would say more than one day, then how much pressing is it now when there is a falling away from the faith?
Still, the point here is how much we need Him as our Good Shepherd and not just as our Saviour.
2 Corinthians 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 4:3030 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Make no mistake: we can only live this christian life by faith in the Son of God in us.
Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
K
I'm going to try this one more time. I agree with you that willful sin and rebellion must be stopped before a person can be saved. This was all started by my question what if someone can't stop? I mean the action, not the intention. Can't is not willful. The assumption I am making is that the person wants to stop the action and cannot. If you say this cannot happen, you are showing that you do not understand reality.
You are right that salvation cannot occur unless a person wants to stop the action, and is willing to do everything in his power to stop. All of my observations assume the person literally cannot stop, no matter how hard he tries.
If you say to such a person, "of course you can, you just don't want to", you are saying what Satan would say to that person, accusing his intention, judging him.. People in such ministries who have tried this tactic have burned out with nervous breakdowns; that's why you think everyone except you is not following Scripture. The people who talk like you do don't last long enough to have a testimony. People have also died because of this kind of counsel. This is why no person can judge whether the action is there because the person wants it or just can't stop.
The intention must be at the moment of salvation and must continue for life. The action may take a while to stop. The Didache fits in because they insist that no one be baptized (thus get saved) without sponsors who fast for them. The apostles and prophets set up a different dynamic to empower the church to help these people change the action.
"Accepting salvation" is a term some people use for responding to the Gospel with repentance and desire to make Jesus their Lord. Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone is willing to do that.
Depending on your denomination, sin means different things. It can mean the willful choice, and/or the action. If you are compelled by chemicals or illness to do something, that is still sin in some people's eyes, because it is action against the will of God. But it is not sin in some people's eyes because you don't want to do it. It is the job of the Body of Christ to make the healing and grace to stop the action available to the person.
What you need to learn is that saying what you are saying, when you are in this ministry is dangerous. You must distinguish between can't and won't and allow for it. Without that, you will never be able to help the person who wants to stop and cannot.
You are right that salvation cannot occur unless a person wants to stop the action, and is willing to do everything in his power to stop. All of my observations assume the person literally cannot stop, no matter how hard he tries.
If you say to such a person, "of course you can, you just don't want to", you are saying what Satan would say to that person, accusing his intention, judging him.. People in such ministries who have tried this tactic have burned out with nervous breakdowns; that's why you think everyone except you is not following Scripture. The people who talk like you do don't last long enough to have a testimony. People have also died because of this kind of counsel. This is why no person can judge whether the action is there because the person wants it or just can't stop.
The intention must be at the moment of salvation and must continue for life. The action may take a while to stop. The Didache fits in because they insist that no one be baptized (thus get saved) without sponsors who fast for them. The apostles and prophets set up a different dynamic to empower the church to help these people change the action.
"Accepting salvation" is a term some people use for responding to the Gospel with repentance and desire to make Jesus their Lord. Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone is willing to do that.
Depending on your denomination, sin means different things. It can mean the willful choice, and/or the action. If you are compelled by chemicals or illness to do something, that is still sin in some people's eyes, because it is action against the will of God. But it is not sin in some people's eyes because you don't want to do it. It is the job of the Body of Christ to make the healing and grace to stop the action available to the person.
What you need to learn is that saying what you are saying, when you are in this ministry is dangerous. You must distinguish between can't and won't and allow for it. Without that, you will never be able to help the person who wants to stop and cannot.
I disagree because a sinner in bondage to sin and to death will only recognize his need for the Saviour. It is by believing in Jesus Christ is the answer of a good conscience towards God.
If we could turn from our sins by the will of the flesh & by the will of man at our salvation to be saved, and obtain righteousness by that same method in following Him, then Christ had died in vain.
Which means that the simplicity of the gospel has to be simpler than a religious guantlet of turning from our sin by the will of man. It should reflect the gospel of grace of which all of our hopes rests in Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
If we look at the children and ponder how serious they are in coming to Christ by how they are turning from their sins, we would wonder if any of them could be saved, but Jesus shifted the focus.
Mark 10: 13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
What can a child do but trust the Lord at His Word?
So when we look too much towards the believer in his or her sincerity, we are missing the faith & hope we have in Christ and all of His promises to us of His sincerity towards us. We should be pointing other believers to look to Him for help in following Him as we bear testimony of that hope in Christ to sinners so that by grace they have been saved through faith & thus by grace through faith in the Son of God in us can any one have any hope of turning from their sins because He will deliver us from that bondage.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I agree that Who we place the emphasis on for repentance for salvation is key, but I believe that particular repentance is the call for repenting from unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ. Either we are preaching the hope of salvation for the sinner's response by believing in Him, or we are giving a religious guantlet by which many wise men after the flsh, many mighty men, and many nobles would respond to projecting an outward religious appearance to glory in men after and not an honest "I need you Jesus as my Saviour. Please save me from my sins."
Who knows how many honest responders were turned away because of how they cannot see it in themselves to turn from sin when it is so much a part of them. Like it or not, being delivered from the bondage to sin and to death is also a hope in Jesus Christ so that we may live that abundant life in Christ in walking with God and not just resting in Him for eternal life.
If we could turn from our sins by the will of the flesh & by the will of man at our salvation to be saved, and obtain righteousness by that same method in following Him, then Christ had died in vain.
Which means that the simplicity of the gospel has to be simpler than a religious guantlet of turning from our sin by the will of man. It should reflect the gospel of grace of which all of our hopes rests in Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
If we look at the children and ponder how serious they are in coming to Christ by how they are turning from their sins, we would wonder if any of them could be saved, but Jesus shifted the focus.
Mark 10: 13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
What can a child do but trust the Lord at His Word?
So when we look too much towards the believer in his or her sincerity, we are missing the faith & hope we have in Christ and all of His promises to us of His sincerity towards us. We should be pointing other believers to look to Him for help in following Him as we bear testimony of that hope in Christ to sinners so that by grace they have been saved through faith & thus by grace through faith in the Son of God in us can any one have any hope of turning from their sins because He will deliver us from that bondage.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I agree that Who we place the emphasis on for repentance for salvation is key, but I believe that particular repentance is the call for repenting from unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ. Either we are preaching the hope of salvation for the sinner's response by believing in Him, or we are giving a religious guantlet by which many wise men after the flsh, many mighty men, and many nobles would respond to projecting an outward religious appearance to glory in men after and not an honest "I need you Jesus as my Saviour. Please save me from my sins."
Who knows how many honest responders were turned away because of how they cannot see it in themselves to turn from sin when it is so much a part of them. Like it or not, being delivered from the bondage to sin and to death is also a hope in Jesus Christ so that we may live that abundant life in Christ in walking with God and not just resting in Him for eternal life.
K
I think the hair we are trying to split is semantics. A sinner in bondage to sin and/or death will recognize that Jesus may offer him hope, even if he does not know what he is in bondage to. On hearing the gospel (Jesus can deliver you, cross, death, resurrection...), he will want to give up whatever he is doing wrong, and want to embrace Jesus instead. That's what I mean by repentance; the desire to give up the past that is not working, and follow Jesus instead. If he has that desire, Jesus will take it from there. When Jesus takes it, the person is "saved". He is saved by the repentance (his desire) and Jesus' power. The power gradually teaches him how to change the actions.
This is an extremely hard hair to split, as there are so many denominations using the same words "sin", "repentance", "salvation", etc., and they each mean something a little different, and they each introduce other terminology to keep their understanding straight. It seems no matter how I word it, someone is unhappy, and it takes quite a while to figure out that we are talking about the same thing. I think people are raised with a different set of not-quite the same definitions, and any attempt to pull it out of their training context sets off warning bells.
This is an extremely hard hair to split, as there are so many denominations using the same words "sin", "repentance", "salvation", etc., and they each mean something a little different, and they each introduce other terminology to keep their understanding straight. It seems no matter how I word it, someone is unhappy, and it takes quite a while to figure out that we are talking about the same thing. I think people are raised with a different set of not-quite the same definitions, and any attempt to pull it out of their training context sets off warning bells.
I understand, brother. I reckon it is because there is so many variations of how one can read repentance at salvation that clarity is needed, because even our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God and so I would rather tell the sinner of the hope in Him, and then by His grace & by His help, disciple them by teaching them to continue in His words in following the Son of God by faith as our Good Shepherd while resting in Him as our Saviour that we are saved.
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
So even this believing in Him in how we are saved is a work of God Himself.
1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Do we see the requirement to repent from all sins in order to be saved below?
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Believing in Him for salvation and discipleship to abide in Him to be fruitful are two different things. In discipleship, there will always be pruning so that they may bear more fruit, but the faith remains the same in how we shall be presented in Heaven for believing in Him.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to teach other believers in being His disciples.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
I believe this pruning process will involve repentance during our walk with Him in bearing more fruit.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
So in this light, we rest in hope in Him, trusting Him to help us continue in His words to be His disciple in living this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ in bearing fruit.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So I see repenting from unbelief by believing is all that is needed to be saved, but the walk of repentance with Him is the call of discipleship which is also done by His grace and by His help.
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
So even this believing in Him in how we are saved is a work of God Himself.
1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Do we see the requirement to repent from all sins in order to be saved below?
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Believing in Him for salvation and discipleship to abide in Him to be fruitful are two different things. In discipleship, there will always be pruning so that they may bear more fruit, but the faith remains the same in how we shall be presented in Heaven for believing in Him.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to teach other believers in being His disciples.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
I believe this pruning process will involve repentance during our walk with Him in bearing more fruit.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
So in this light, we rest in hope in Him, trusting Him to help us continue in His words to be His disciple in living this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ in bearing fruit.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So I see repenting from unbelief by believing is all that is needed to be saved, but the walk of repentance with Him is the call of discipleship which is also done by His grace and by His help.
K
You are absolutely right. In a more proper sense, everyone is on a walk with the Lord. Even the most rebellious satanist is breathing and was knitted in his mother's womb by God, same as you or I, so he has something of the Lord in him. Even the Christian most advanced with the Lord, still has sin in His life, and still has more the Lord wants to do through him, another glory in him that is not yet unfolded. Exactly where a person is when we meet him, isn't always ours to know, but the method is the same - affirm that there is another step for him to take to get closer to God, and help him see Jesus is there just ahead of him. John 1 is pretty clear, nothing has ever been made without Jesus, so Jesus is always there, in each step. "Saved" is an unfolding term. Each uses it as his church or background has taught him. And if we scream too loudly to each other that we are wrong, the world gets very alienated by our witness.
I'm sorry for all the confusion, but I have spent the last three weeks defending myself against charges that I am not a member of the Body of Christ for failing to use the formal word "repentance" (your statement as I read you) and then for failing to insist that salvation is not complete until all sin is dealt with (as we have seen here in this thread). To my mind, they are all "right," each in their own perspective, but then again so am I correct from mine.
I'm sorry for all the confusion, but I have spent the last three weeks defending myself against charges that I am not a member of the Body of Christ for failing to use the formal word "repentance" (your statement as I read you) and then for failing to insist that salvation is not complete until all sin is dealt with (as we have seen here in this thread). To my mind, they are all "right," each in their own perspective, but then again so am I correct from mine.