IS LIVING TOGETHER A SIN?

[Stephen63]

I have read many threads by men and women who are having issues with their boyfriend/girlfriend. Every time I read them, I find within the paragraphs that they have been living together. As they post their problem, they seem oblivious to the fact that they themselves are living in sin. Because of that, they also seem oblivious to the fact that they only see half the problem. They themselves are the other half.

Galatians 6:7-8 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Why is it most of these people are posting threads about cheating? Because those who commit adultery will reap adultery. When a person confesses to be a "Christian" constantly walks in rebellion and disobedience, what should they expect?

With all the posts by people who are shacking up, another sin has arisen. Hold onto your seats, for this one might shock you. The other sin is done by others in the thread that refuses to help that person by revealing their true problem. What good is it to pray for them, when we refuse to tell them about their sin? Isn't that like saying, "be warmed and filled", without giving them what they need?

Galatians 6:1-2 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Praying for a couple who has been shacked up that they get back together is not the will of God. God's will is that all men come to repentance. God's will is that Christ will become first in their lives. God's will is that they will be spiritually restored/get saved. Physical and emotional problems should never supersede the needs of the soul. Yet this is what I see more often than not.

 

[clee356]

Society makes this out to be not a big deal. I've always felt it's been one of the biggest influences for living together. It's all over the place. ON TV, in movies, and ''popular'' songs are getting more and more blatant. It's no wonder more and more couples are moving in together before marriage. And younger couples especially, seem to be falling into this... and unfortunately, even if they do get some wise advice NOT to move forward with this, people can be stubborn with it. ''Oh, but we love each other and we're gonna get married, so it's okay.'' ''I don't have any choice, and it's not like we're going to ''sleep'' with each other.'' That's just... setting yourself up for a trap right there...

I feel that unfortunately, many people will continue to do this... they definitely need some tough love and to be told that it's not in God's will. I absolutely agree with you, I personally believe that praying for a relationship to be restored is not always in the best interest for the couple. Especially in this case. Not at all. We've got to pray for God to intercede, to reveal to both parties what they're doing wrong, and for God to break that relationship if necessary. The worst thing is to be out of line with God. If we're not in His will, what are we? We're wide open to the devil and that's flat out dangerous.

 

[kenisyes]

When does marriage (in God's eyes) occur?

 

[piper27]

When does marriage (in God's eyes) occur?

You know how to get the discussion going!!

 

[kenisyes]

You know how to get the discussion going!!

I don't know. It's more than an hour and no one's responded to the actual question.

 

[piper27]

I don't know. It's more than an hour and no one's responded to the actual question.

No kidding!! I would, but I'm scared of some people around here!

 

[kenisyes]

No kidding!! I would, but I'm scared of some people around here!

Why do you think I asked the question, instead of making a statement as to my opinion?

I don't think we can address the OP without it.

 

[Kefa52]

Back to the original question. My answer is that I haven't been here long enough to get into who is shacked up.

My answer to prayer for folks that are shacked up.... I will pray that the Holy spirit will convict you of the sin you are living in. We can't possibly ask God to bless your relationship of sin in prayer.

When does God consider us married. I am not sure on this one.

21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to come over the man,h Gn 15:12 and he slept. God took one of his ribs and closed the flesh at that place.
22 Then the Lord God made the rib He had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man.i 1Co 11:8,12
23 And the man said:
This one, at last, is bone of my boneand flesh of my flesh;this one will be called “woman,”for she was taken from man.j Eph 5:28-30

24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh.k Mal 2:15; Mt 19:5; Mk 10:7-8; 1Co 6:16; Eph 5:31

I would say that God considers us married when we perform the magage ceremony with a person that has athority to do the ceremony.

I would go as far to question "Justice of the Peace" marriages. In Gods order of the world the state is to protect not perform mariage..

Kefa

 

[Kefa52]

By the way. In person I would council, with scripture, the couple to get them to see their sin. I wouldn't just blast them with scripture.

 

[kenisyes]

Back to the original question. My answer is that I haven't been here long enough to get into who is shacked up.

My answer to prayer for folks that are shacked up.... I will pray that the Holy spirit will convict you of the sin you are living in. We can't possibly ask God to bless your relationship of sin in prayer.

When does God consider us married. I am not sure on this one.

21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to come over the man,h Gn 15:12 and he slept. God took one of his ribs and closed the flesh at that place.
22 Then the Lord God made the rib He had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man.i 1Co 11:8,12
23 And the man said:
This one, at last, is bone of my boneand flesh of my flesh;this one will be called “woman,”for she was taken from man.j Eph 5:28-30

24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh.k Mal 2:15; Mt 19:5; Mk 10:7-8; 1Co 6:16; Eph 5:31

I would say that God considers us married when we perform the magage ceremony with a person that has athority to do the ceremony.

I would go as far to question "Justice of the Peace" marriages. In Gods order of the world the state is to protect not perform mariage..

Kefa

For the sake of promoting discussion, may I ask you (or anyone who agrees with your position) to produce a Scripture that requires or even advises, to get a person in authority to perform a marriage? Or, can you produce a Scripture that has anyone going to such a person for that purpose? If you cannot do that, then may I ask why you are advancing a requirement not in Scripture?

I really would like the idea of building on the Scripture quote you gave and see where it takes us.

 

[piper27]

Why do you think I asked the question, instead of making a statement as to my opinion?

I don't think we can address the OP without it.

Ok - I think I'm ready to throw this out there, and see the responses. So, our western culture (amongst many others) have a ceremony and perform nuptuals.

Other cultures 'promise' or 'give' a wife - whether its chosen by the individuals, or an arrangement between parents. Most likely a contract is struck ; Wives are purchased.
Some have a ceremony, some don't. Not all unions are recorded per se, or registered like we do in North America. Thre are so many different practises among the nations.
When has marriage occurred?

I also come from the belief that God is involved in marriage, and covenant is made whether people believe in him or not. God always honours His word.
When has marriage occurred?

Prior to my husband and I becoming married, we lived up in the North in an outfitting ranch. (fly - in, literally in the wilderness) We were there for months; we met, fell in love, and he wanted to marry immediately. He believed that we could 'promise' before God and be married. I struggled with this, (we were both believers) and sought the word out on it; prayed asking the Lord, and never came up with a definate conclusion. As a result, with no 'green light/go ahead' - it affirmed my belief that marriage is when we say our promises in front of witnesses in a form of a ceremony.
This is also the law of our land. To me, this is when marriage occurred. (and it did!)

However, all this being said, culturally speaking, this is what my culture, and my laws dictate -- would I adhere to this belief if I were from another culture? Different government?
Just curious.

 

[kenisyes]

Then I will throw out an answer. "Marriage before God" is what He honors. We are to submit to the laws of the land, not be bound by them. If one of you had died before the formal ceremony, the other would not have spousal survival rights. Waiting for the ceremony for those rights was your submission.

If you lived in Pennsylvania, by their law, you were legally married. Their law is shack up with at least one formal paper usual for married couples (rental agreement, joint checking account, etc.). They have the Amish to deal with, you see. You should see the fun they have in divorce court when someone moves there from another state, shacks up, and does not realize they are married there.

Jesus personally married my wife and myself on Feb. 25, 1981. Our June 27 ceremony was an evangelical outreach, where we said vows and led the music ministry from four states where she and I had ministered. My wife was a member of one of the oldest charismatic prayer group in Upstate New York (that had started many of the others), with over 120 people, and she ministered music there every week, and was constantly on the phone with many of them planning ministry events. She was a member of the church down the block, with hundreds of people, and we went almost every day. I was offered a full-time ministry position in a neighboring church that May. Not one single person, from all these Christian leaders, ever noticed we were living together. The pastor of her church at first refused to let us do the service in church as I mentioned above, because of "rules". The next morning, he called us and told us God woke him up in the middle of the night, and told him we could do whatever we wanted. When God decides to fix something, He fixes it good.

 

[Kefa52]

For the sake of promoting discussion, may I ask you (or anyone who agrees with your position) to produce a Scripture that requires or even advises, to get a person in authority to perform a marriage? Or, can you produce a Scripture that has anyone going to such a person for that purpose? If you cannot do that, then may I ask why you are advancing a requirement not in Scripture?

I really would like the idea of building on the Scripture quote you gave and see where it takes us.

For me a person of athority would be my minister. I don't believe an athiest judge has any athority in God.

 

[Enow]

As a result, with no 'green light/go ahead' - it affirmed my belief that marriage is when we say our promises in front of witnesses in a form of a ceremony.

This is also the law of our land. To me, this is when marriage occurred. (and it did!)

However, all this being said, culturally speaking, this is what my culture, and my laws dictate -- would I adhere to this belief if I were from another culture? Different government?
Just curious.

If we consider that marriage was God's idea and not man's, then marriages in all cultures containing witnesses would be proof that God had set it up that way. We could see the necessity to validate a marriage here in scripture.

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Hence the need for two or three witnesses at the marriage ceremony to bear witness that the couple were married to each other, before the charge of adultery can be brought forth, otherwise, how then can anyone prove that the woman was his wife to rile the people up for stoning her or the woman inciting the people up to stone the man?

So there seems to be an underlying precedent seen in scripture that suggests the basis for all marriages to have witnesses so as to establish that the two are married to be living together.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

John 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

One would argue the point by saying who were witnesses to Adam's and Eve's marriage then? God was. The fact that God insists on two or three witnesses testifies to the character of Triune God.

It is shown in prophesy:

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Here is the Lord, our Redeemer, speaking and yet the Lord God and his Spirit sent Him? Do we see that in the NT? Yes. That prophesy above was what Jesus was talking about in fulfilling all righteousness.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God even made sure that there was another witness to that event for us to read to confirm God the Father's witness and the Holy Spirit's witness that Jesus was and is the Son of God as in God.

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Interesting, huh?

So the idea of marriage having two or three witnesses as seemingly found in almost every culture is a precedent that testifies to God's witness of the first marriage to Adam & Eve as the Triune God.

 

[piper27]

Then I will throw out an answer. "Marriage before God" is what He honors. We are to submit to the laws of the land, not be bound by them. If one of you had died before the formal ceremony, the other would not have spousal survival rights. Waiting for the ceremony for those rights was your submission.


Excellent answer!! This has made some grey lines way more clear! Thank you.
This is an example of living in the world, but not of the world.
Much appreciated.

 

[piper27]

If we consider that marriage was God's idea and not man's, then marriages in all cultures containing witnesses would be proof that God had set it up that way. We could see the necessity to validate a marriage here in scripture.

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Hence the need for two or three witnesses at the marriage ceremony to bear witness that the couple were married to each other, before the charge of adultery can be brought forth, otherwise, how then can anyone prove that the woman was his wife to rile the people up for stoning her or the woman inciting the people up to stone the man?

So there seems to be an underlying precedent seen in scripture that suggests the basis for all marriages to have witnesses so as to establish that the two are married to be living together.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

John 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

One would argue the point by saying who were witnesses to Adam's and Eve's marriage then? God was. The fact that God insists on two or three witnesses testifies to the character of Triune God.

It is shown in prophesy:

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Here is the Lord, our Redeemer, speaking and yet the Lord God and his Spirit sent Him? Do we see that in the NT? Yes. That prophesy above was what Jesus was talking about in fulfilling all righteousness.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God even made sure that there was another witness to that event for us to read to confirm God the Father's witness and the Holy Spirit's witness that Jesus was and is the Son of God as in God.

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Interesting, huh?

So the idea of marriage having two or three witnesses as seemingly found in almost every culture is a precedent that testifies to God's witness of the first marriage to Adam & Eve as the Triune God.

Would not the Triune God be witness to a marriage today?
Particularily after Jesus' completed work on the cross ?
just askin.

 

[BananaPie]

When does marriage (in God's eyes) occur?

In God's opinion, marriage occurs when a man leaves his parent's house for the sake of uniting himself (as in a covenant binding) with a woman for the purpose of making her his wife.

God sees marriage as a covenant agreement (Malachi 2:14).

As for the OP, you are correct. Any coitus activity, kissing, even amorous-flirt behavior, all such elements belong within the hall of marriage. Participating in such activities outside marriage is not becoming of Christian character.

 

[Enow]

Would not the Triune God be witness to a marriage today?

Particularily after Jesus' completed work on the cross ?
just askin.

Can God bear witness to people when someone has committed adultery? Probably why marriage is to have two or three witnesses for all marriages after Adam & Eve.

I reckon if Adam & Eve had committed adultery... God would address them as He did in the Garden of Eden being the Triune God that had witnessed their marriage in their creation.

 

[kenisyes]

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Hence the need for two or three witnesses at the marriage ceremony to bear witness that the couple were married to each other, before the charge of adultery can be brought forth, otherwise, how then can anyone prove that the woman was his wife to rile the people up for stoning her or the woman inciting the people up to stone the man?

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

John 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.



Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


So the idea of marriage having two or three witnesses as seemingly found in almost every culture is a precedent that testifies to God's witness of the first marriage to Adam & Eve as the Triune God.

Your scriptures prove the need of two witnesses for a matter of fact when at law. Witnesses would be needed to the act of adultery, not to the fact of marriage. Read Deut. 22. Note that marriage is proven by known to be living together, and betrothal by a betrothal contract.

In John 8:3, no proof of marriage is mentioned. She was assumed married.

 

[kenisyes]

In God's opinion, marriage occurs when a man leaves his parent's house for the sake of uniting himself (as in a covenant binding) with a woman for the purpose of making her his wife.

God sees marriage as a covenant agreement (Malachi 2:14).

As for the OP, you are correct. Any coitus activity, kissing, even amorous-flirt behavior, all such elements belong within the hall of marriage. Participating in such activities outside marriage is not becoming of Christian character.

Are you suggesting that if two unmarried people flirt or kiss, they are married? If not, where do you draw the line?