Paul did NOT die to the law!

zone · Nov 30, 2012

Jesus reference to 7x70 is actually a reference to a prophecy in Daniel.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God gave them seventy weeks. weeks are 7 days. so 70x7 to stop breaking the law by making an end to sin and to bring in everlasting righteousness. Hence the reason God at the end of this time no longer accepted Israel as a nation. though Jews can still be saved but the nation is not longer chosen.

and, there we have it.
very cool.

TheMachine · Dec 1, 2012

This is an interesting topic.

I believe:

If Jesus Christ describes that not only is murder a breach of the commandements but hating someone is equal to murder, and that lusting is equal to adultery, is He not telling us that we all...ALL.. have sinned and fall short of the law?. If this is true a logical conclusion would be that Christ is saying that we strive and persue the Father through Him to bridge the gap between us. We will never be sinless so we need Christ, we will never meet the expectation. It doesn't mean that we give up or stop trying, it means that all that we do , we do with Him for He is our strength, our deliverer.

The Machine....

There are two kinds of people I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch......Nigel Powers.

psychomom · Dec 2, 2012

DavidF said:

Ooookay...so first you question the calling of the LORD on Paul's life as a chosen apostle,
and then you use the Words God gave him (and wrongly) to back up your own point?

The Law is absolutely good!

It is we who were not.

Who is Paul? Are you actually questioning the LORD's choice?
I just would like to understand where you're coming from.

-ellie

Mediate · Dec 2, 2012

zone said:

Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him

Bit more to it than that ... Daniels is a prophecy, not a command for all men.

Jesus was asked 'how many times should I forgive my brother, Lord, seven times?'

'I tell you, seventy seven times.

God intends us to ALWAYS forgive people who wrong us.

'If you forgive men their sins, your father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive, he will not forgive you'.

DavidF · Dec 3, 2012

psychomom said:

No, I'm saying Paul cannot come up with anything new, any more than I could. Paul is not one of the chosen Apostles. Did God use Paul? Maybe, but I couldn't say for sure. If Paul wants to call himself an apostle, I don't really have a problem with it as long as he stays within what Jesus and His chosen apostles teach.

My quote from Paul is trying to support him and show that indeed Paul did not get out of bounds. Other's use Paul's writings and twist them outside Jesus' teachings but I don't think that was Paul's intent. Just my personal opion though. I hear a lot of Christians, some on this Forum, try to use Paul's writings to justify ignoring God's Holy Law and it does concern me. There are many who say things like:
"Paul says we are not under the Law so we can do whatever we want and if you try to tell us we are sinning because we don't follow the Law then you are dealing in bondage and leagalism and thats a Judaizing no no." Paul never said any such thing.

Eccl12and13 · Dec 3, 2012

haz said:

Again I ask.....

What do you mean when you claim we are not under the law?

Which law are we not under?

I didn't make the claim....YOU did!

So again....what do you mean when you claim we are not under the law? Which are we not under?

If this is something you believe then please explain yourself!

.

Laodicea · Jan 5, 2013

Eccl12and13 said:

Peter gives us a warning about the writings of Paul.....and for a very good reason. Paul's writings are HARD to understand.

Let's look at Romans Chapter 7:

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Right from the start what does Paul ask us to consider? Are the laws of God bad? And what does he tell us? NO!!! He then goes on to say....if it were not for the laws of God he would not have known that it was wrong to covet.

Now readers....do you believe Paul stopped reading at this one law of do not covet? Of course not! Paul was a student of God's word. He knew ALL of God's laws. So NO....he did not stop at "Do not covet.". Let's continue with chap. 7;

[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Above Paul tells us that because of the knowledge of God's laws, this knowledge made him aware of all manner of lustful desires. For before Paul knew God's laws....sin was dead to him. He didn't know that what he was doing was wrong in the eyes of the Lord. Let's continue.....

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Above Paul tells us that we was alive without God's laws. Now what do you think he meant? He meant the same thing and felt the same way we all did before knowing that certain actions were wrong in the eyes of God. We thought we were alive and living it up. Doing what we wanted, when we wanted and not having to give account to anyone.

But what happened when Paul became aware of God's laws? What happened when the "...commandment came..."? Sin was made know to him. When he read that it was wrong to covet....that old Paul...the one that was living it up had to die. The LAW did NOT die. The old man....the man that was living it up had to die. Paul did NOT die to the law. God's laws made Paul aware that what he was doing was wrong and that old Paul is the one that died. Let's read more....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Readers....please take note to what Paul says above. Let's read it closely again;

"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

Paul tells us that God's laws were ordained to LIFE. Now what life could Paul be speaking of? He was already alive! The life that the laws would give, if kept, was ETERNAL LIFE! That is what God's laws give to those that keep them. We have proof of this throughout the entire bible. Keeping God's laws could give not only eternal life....but doing as God commands could also give physical life. Consider the days of Noah. Consider the punishment of Sodom. Consider the nation of Israel.

And of course we know what Jesus tells us gives life eternal; Keeping God's commandments. Let's prove this with scripture;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keeping the laws and commandments of God allows entrance into His kingdom. Now let's continue to what else happened to Paul when God's commandments were made known to him;

"...I found to be unto death."

And what was it that died? Again.....Paul already told us. It was that old Paul that died. Once Paul became aware of God's laws and the knowledge of sin...that old Paul...the one, just like us, that was living it up had to die. Paul could not go on serving 2 masters. Either he had to serve God or serve sin. Paul chose to serve God and obey His laws. Let's continue....

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Again Paul tells us that God's laws are HOLY, JUST and GOOD! How could it be that such laws were nailed to Christ's cross? How could these laws that Paul says, were ordained to give life, no longer be needed or kept?

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul presents us with another question. He asks... Could that which was good, speaking of God's laws, cause him to die? Could keeping God's laws cause Paul to die? Again he tells us NO! But what was it that caused death in Paul? Knowing what sin was and that he could not continue therein caused him to die. Not only that...but now having the knowledge of God's laws made sin appear even MORE sinful.

Readers.....Paul did NOT die to the law. We are NOT dead to God's laws. The knowledge of God's laws brings about death to the old Paul....to the old US.

God's laws are ordained to life....life ETERNAL!.

Yes we do not die to the Law we die to sin.
Romans 6:2 KJV
(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Grandpa · Jan 5, 2013

Laodicea said:

When a person dies to sin they are dead to the Law that points it out...

1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

When you put yourself under Law you are giving strength to sin. O foolish (your name here), who has bewitched you??? Recieved ye the Spirit through the works of the Law or the hearing of Faith?

Galatians 5:17-18,22-23
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Its not about the Law. You're not perfect before Him by your performance of the Law. It's all about your faith and honesty before Him. Follow Him and lean not unto your own understanding of "keeping the Law".

The Law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Him. You don't know you need a Saviour until you realize that you are a sinner and you can't save yourself. If you still think you can keep His Law perfectly and maintain a righteousness that is by your work you don't understand what Christ has done for you, the schoolmaster isn't finished with you. You are still under Law and haven't been made Righteous by Him.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Powemm · Jan 5, 2013

if we are looking backwards ... Where are we running into? a big tangled mess .... there is a reason we have a giant windshield .... We are to be looking forward into this very present moment ofwhat god is doing now ... away with the old and in with the new .. the best is yet to come !!!

resurrection33 · Jan 5, 2013

When we behave selfishly, the Lord disciplines us. The law keeps us out of trouble—it shows the way.

crossnote · Jan 6, 2013

Eccl12and13 said:

Forgive me if this has already been pointed out but we have...

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(Rom 7:4)

The change comes here...
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Heb 8:10)

and here...
who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
(2Co 3:6-13)

The latter passage explains also the connection between Romans 7 and Romans 8.

Laodicea · Jan 6, 2013

The only law we are dead to is the law of ordinances and sacrifices.

Grandpa · Jan 6, 2013

Laodicea said:

Anyone who has read the bible knows that is not true, Lao.

The effort of your flesh and carnal mind get you more fleshly and carnal results. There is no rest available to you who work at the law trying to be holy in your own will and flesh.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If the law were meant to be separated into categories then each time it was brought up in the NT it would have been clarified which law was being spoken of.

Read Galatians 5 and tell me which law is being spoken of???

weakness · Jan 6, 2013

[COLOR="Green"v[/COLOR][QUOTE="Eccl12and13, post: 840216"]But one must understand WHICH law it is that Paul tells them not to go back to trying to keep. Let's read...

Gal.3
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Let's consider....what was it that could NOT make anyone perfect that involved flesh? What law required "works" and "deeds".

The ONLY law that required a work to be performed AND involved flesh was the laws of the Levites and their job of killing bulls and goats (flesh) for the forgiveness of sin.

Let's read how Paul explains this further in the chapter...

[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God added the Laws of the Levites because man continued to break His other, already existing laws. Hence.....a law was added because of transgressions, or sin. And this law was only to be around till the seed would come, which was Christ. Let's continue...

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Could the killing of bulls and goats give life? No. Let's prove this...

Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The law of killing bulls and goats could never make those that offered their sacrifice perfect. And this is what Paul was speaking about in Gal.3. Now that Christ has shed His blood...going back to offering animal sacrifices would not replace hearing, having faith in and obeying God's word.

That was the law Paul speaks of in Gal.3. The law of works that involved flesh that could not make those that offered sacrifices perfect.

.[/QUOTE]This Is false teaching . Lets call it what it is. Your a false teacher and spreading discord! And being contentious . seek the lord. Please for your own sake "take the beam out of your own eye".

eternally-gratefull · Jan 6, 2013

Laodicea said:

then how do you explain these?

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7: 4-7
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

crossnote · Jan 6, 2013

sigh. once again... Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

see it is us who have died. when we died it was not to just a part of the law but the whole as it can't be partitioned. we have been raised from the dead to a New Covenant, a new High Priest, better promises...a living way...a living relationship with His nature written on our hearts.

weakness · Jan 6, 2013

I'm sorry .I fail to see the purpose of this seemingly unfruitful discussion. May I'm just out of it ! 1Cor 5:1 It is commonly reported that there is fornication among you........@ and ye are puffed up ,and have not rather mourned that he which hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Purge out therefor among you the-old lump that ye may be a new lump,as ye are unleavened..... Sometimes we allow sin among us,not only doing disservice to him that that is in danger of judgment , but also that we are selves would think of ourselves more righteous continuing to allow sin among us as a reminder of our own superior righteousness (falsely assumed) in other word it makes us look good in comparison, This glorying is not good.Please pray about this. I have found this prideful sin among myself to often as an excuse for true righteousness within my self.I am not saying we we should not be compassion toward those in a gall of bitterness but,we must all seek god for understanding in each circumstance.But after so may admonitions a decision needs made whether long suffering is really making a difference. Just my thoughts and experience. Also we are to redeem the time and often times long and drawn out discussions that yield no fruit are a ploy of Satan to waist our time fruitlessly instead of words that lead to edification and Godly sorrow which works repentance and leads to Godliness. just a thought I'm not perfect either!!! but this seems like such a repetitious conversation that I think most understand quit clearly. comments?

Eccl12and13 · Jan 9, 2013

To those reading this post.......if you would like an explanation as to what (2) laws Paul spoke of throughout his writings please read the post below which can be found in this forum;

"What was the LAW that was Added?

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 1

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 2

Readers.....there is a reason almost 100 people have read these posts without any replies.

.

Laodicea · Jan 9, 2013

Eccl12and13 said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/51396-what-law-added.html#post817126

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...added-his-other-laws-part-1-a.html#post819670

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...added-his-other-laws-part-2-a.html#post819669

Grandpa · Jan 9, 2013

Galatians 3:18-19
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The inheritance of God is not by perfect 'keeping' of the Law, or works. It is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and coming to Him.

The Law, written on stone, was added because of transgressions.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Its like you people don't even have Galatians in your bible. You do have the book of Galatians in your bible, don't you???

Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul did NOT die to the law!

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