Paul did NOT die to the law!

[JGPS]

I hope you'll excuse my interruption.

But for the sake of clarity, and so we're all on the same page here,
would you please tell us which part of the Law (the 'nomos' is the Greek word, and it's singular, one Law)
do you keep?
Are you keeping the dietary part?
Or the ceremonial part?
I'm fairly certain not the sacrificial part. ( )

Also, perhaps it would be helpful if you were to give a list
(not exhaustive, of course)
of the commands of Christ from the Gospels?
(not things like 'keep My commands', but actually the commands themselves, beyond The Beatitudes)

Sometimes terminology gets us bogged down,
and then we discover we're actually speaking of the same things!

Thanks for considering that.
-ellie

Thus far I haven't presented anything in particular on that matter.

The grievous thing it is not any of the Torah that Mark is struggling with, but with following those things which Christ himself has clearly and specifically said. I have met no Christian who says Christs own commands are too much to bear, it is both interesting and somewhat disturbing.

It is not the law of cloths or diet that is too burdensome for him, it is the very beatitudes

After your post he made that even clearer and said this:

Do Christians look to each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and strive to obey each and everyone? Is that what people feel we should do to obey the commands of Christ?

To which I of course say a very resounding YES!

There aren't even that many of such commands...

Semantics do bog people down sometimes, I agree. But at this point we're talking to someone who thinks even the plain as day commands of Christ are too much of a burden for the law in his spirit.

 

[mark54]

Thus far I haven't presented anything in particular on that matter.

The grievous thing it is not any of the Torah that Mark is struggling with, but with following those things which Christ himself has clearly and specifically said. I have met no Christian who says Christs own commands are too much to bear, it is both interesting and somewhat disturbing.

It is not the law of cloths or diet that is too burdensome for him, it is the very beatitudes

After your post he made that even clearer and said this:



To which I of course say a very resounding YES!

There aren't even that many of such commands...

Semantics do bog people down sometimes, I agree. But at this point we're talking to someone who thinks even the plain as day commands of Christ are too much of a burden for the law in his spirit.

Well you must be an extrordinary Christian. I have discussed the law extensively, and with people who are passionate it must all be followed. NO CHRISTIAN apart frrom you has said they strive to follow each and every command of Christ in the Gospels, and it is simpl,e and easy to do so
I can only repeat, your Christianity must be way beyond anyones I have ever chatted to.
Can I ask? Why are you on this website?

 

[JGPS]

I have repeated so many times now, the law is written on the heart and mind of the Christian, it is internal to them, not external on tablets of stone.
The Christian wants to obey God, they want to live as he wants them to.
As you seem not to understand this point I continually make to you, I don't see how conversation can be fruitful. But can I ask you, what do you think it means that the law has been written on the heart and mind of the Christian, as oppoosed to it being a literal law written down?

I answered this in my very first post... Reading what other people say would help stop you from restating yourself with no new information.

You are aware that repeating yourself with no new information adds nothing to your case right?

I ask you, how do you say you love Christ when even his most basic commands are a burden to you? So much of a burden you flat out disbelieve it when someone says they are a joy? What darkness is in your eyes. When the law is in your spirit these things are a joy.

 

[mark54]

I answered this in my very first post... Reading what other people say would help stop you from restating yourself with no new information.

You are aware that repeating yourself with no new information adds nothing to your case right?

I ask you, how do you say you love Christ when even his most basic commands are a burden to you? So much of a burden you flat out disbelieve it when someone says they are a joy? What darkness is in your eyes. When the law is in your spirit these things are a joy.

I don't recall you answering much at all. I repeat, I don't believe you understand the Gospel of Grace, and either, your Christianity is way above anyones I have ever chatted to, or you are porky pying a wee bit

 

[JGPS]

Well you must be an extrordinary Christian. I have discussed the law extensively, and with people who are passionate it must all be followed. NO CHRISTIAN apart frrom you has said they strive to follow each and every command of Christ in the Gospels, and it is simpl,e and easy to do so
I can only repeat, your Christianity must be way beyond anyones I have ever chatted to.
Can I ask? Why are you on this website?

Who do you normally talk too? The commands of Christ are easy, Christ himself says so, and he says that if you love him you will keep his commands. How much more basic can you get than that?

I do not know a Christian that says they need not follow Christs own commands, though many discuss how much if anything more they must do.

If you don't want to follow the commands of Christ, or you don't think they're important enough to follow, why do you say you are His?

I'm on this site for some discussion while my arm rests, that is really all there is too that.

 

[mark54]

Who do you normally talk too? The commands of Christ are easy, Christ himself says so, and he says that if you love him you will keep his commands. How much more basic can you get than that?

I do not know a Christian that says they need not follow Christs own commands, though many discuss how much if anything more they must do.

If you don't want to follow the commands of Christ, or you don't think they're important enough to follow, why do you say you are His?

I'm on this site for some discussion while my arm rests, that is really all there is too that.

So, you follow every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and it is simple and easy to do so

I have been to churches for over 30 years, I have met NO CHRISTIAN who even attempts to follow each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels, nor apart from you has anyone in conversation on websites professed to
So, either your Christianity is way above everyone elses, or you are porky pying a wee bit

 

[JGPS]

I don't recall you answering much at all. I repeat, I don't believe you understand the Gospel of Grace, and either, your Christianity is way above anyones I have ever chatted to, or you are porky pying a wee bit

Conveniently, things on web pages like this are archived. You do not need to rely on your memory.

But can I ask you, what do you think it means that the law has been written on the heart and mind of the Christian, as oppoosed to it being a literal law written down?

Mark,

The Law brings conviction, conviction brings condemnation, commendation brings death. But conviction brings repentance which leads us to Christ. The Law is Holy, and part of the path too salvation... How about instead of excerpts we look at sections of scripture?

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The Life without the Law is a life full of enmity with God. It is the carnal life, it is the life we do not want. When we know our sin our old life dies. You must have seen 100 conversions or more even in our time that go exactly like that? The commandments exist to protect our lives and our relationship with God, and once we understand that our sin, our opposition to that Law, is like death to the sinner. That is not a bad death, that is a vital death, a crucial death.

This is how one is 'dead to the law' they are more aptly 'dead through the law'. Being dead to the law does not mean that now that I am Christian I may go steal and fornicate and murder because I am free from the law, it means the law killed the part of me that would want to do such things, and killed my old nature.

Galatians is exactly the same. To say that we are no longer under a schoolmaster is not to say that we now ignore that which we where taught. How fruitless would that be? How foolish?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Now faith has come to us, and grace. The law should be in our spirit, our very essence. As we have more faith sin has less appeal to us. The law is no longer the bondage to our flesh but freedom to our spirit. It showed us that we needed Christ! It shows us our sin! What greater freedom is there than to have Christ? The law no longer condemns us. We will come to a point when breaking it holds no appeal or temptation to us.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

We know the law does not forgive, and because our flesh transgresses the law and the law cannot forgive in and of itself. But it did not exist to save, but to lead us to salvation and forgiveness.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.


Look through scripture, there are not two laws, but one law and one lawgiver. But the law to the carnal man is a totally different thing than the law to the spiritual man. To the carnal man the law is condemnation and bondage and to the spiritual it is freedom and righousness.

The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.

The law in the heart means that you see the righteousness of Gods precepts and take joy in them. The law is not a testament against you from the outside, like the pen and paper law, but strength from the inside, part of who and what you are.

The Law of Grace takes the condemnation out of the law so it may be a joy instead of a burden.

 

[Eccl12and13]

I fully understand the law written on human hearts is the same as the law given in the OT(though the mosaic law was never given to Gentiles)

Two things.....First, just HOW is the law written in our hearts and minds? How do we receive knowledge of God's laws? How does the Holy Spirit give us God's laws?

And second, Why do you believe that God's laws were ONLY given to the nation of Israel? Didn't Abraham keep God's laws? Didn't he have knowledge of God's laws? He was not an Israelite!

Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And what about the "strangers", those of the mixed multitude of people that fled Egypt and also believed in the God of Israel? Did not they have to keep the same laws that were given to the nation of Israel?

God's laws were for ALL that believed in the true and living God.

And what about the example that God gives us concerning the great city of Nineveh? Let's read....

Jonah 1
[2] Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah 3
[4] And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
[5] So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
[6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
[7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
[8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
[9] Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 4
[11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

These were not Israelites that God wanted to turn from their evil ways and obey Him. Did they not stop sinning and start keeping God's laws?


God's laws were, and still are, for all that desire to worship the true and living God.


.

 

[mark54]

Two things.....First, just HOW is the law written in our hearts and minds? How do we receive knowledge of God's laws? How does the Holy Spirit give us God's laws?

And second, Why do you believe that God's laws were ONLY given to the nation of Israel? Didn't Abraham keep God's laws? Didn't he have knowledge of God's laws? He was not an Israelite!

Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And what about the "strangers", those of the mixed multitude of people that fled Egypt and also believed in the God of Israel? Did not they have to keep the same laws that were given to the nation of Israel?

God's laws were for ALL that believed in the true and living God.

And what about the example that God gives us concerning the great city of Nineveh? Let's read....

Jonah 1
[2] Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah 3
[4] And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
[5] So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
[6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
[7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
[8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
[9] Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 4
[11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

These were not Israelites that God wanted to turn from their evil ways and obey Him. Did they not stop sinning and start keeping God's laws?


God's laws were, and still are, for all that desire to worship the true and living God.


.

I cannot have two conversations at the same time
But let me ask you, I would be interested in your reply
Do you strive to follow each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and find it simple and easy to obey them all?

 

[mark54]

Conveniently, things on web pages like this are archived. You do not need to rely on your memory.


The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.

The law in the heart means that you see the righteousness of Gods precepts and take joy in them. The law is not a testament against you from the outside, like the pen and paper law, but strength from the inside, part of who and what you are.

The Law of Grace takes the condemnation out of the law so it may be a joy instead of a burden.

Young man, I do not agree with your interpretation of Rom7:7-11. When the commandment came to Paul(one of the Ten commandments) sin sprang to life and he died, and the commandment that was supposed to lead him to life instead brought death, for sin fooled him and used what was holy and Good to make Paul feel condmened.
God's laws are perfect, as another poster wrote, the problemm is with us, not God's good and perfect laws.

I refuse to go into depth with you concerning these things, for I believe you are simply bringing forth what to you is perfect doctrine/theology and professing you easily and always fully strive to follow , and obey all the literal comands of Christ in the Gospels.
It sems more like self promotion than enhancing the Gospel
I am afraid I cannot take you seriously as I do not accept your claims

 

[JGPS]

Young man, I do not agree with your interpretation of Rom7:7-11. When the commandments came to Paul(one of the Ten xommandments) sin sprang to life and he died, and the commandment vthat was supposed to lead him to life instead brought death, vfor sin foled him and use what was hol;y and Good to make Paul feel condmened.
God's laws are perfect, as another postewr wrote, the problemm is with us, not God's good amnd perfect laws.
I redfuse to go into depth with you concerning these things, for I believe you are simply bringuing forth what to you is perfect doctrine/theology and professing you easily and always fully strive to, and obey all the literal comands of Christ in the Gospels.
It sems more like self promotion than enhgancing the Gospel
I asm afraid I cannot5 take you seriously as I do not accept your claims

Nor do you agree with following the basic commands of Christ...

I've said before and will say again, my claims are basic, not extravagant or special. I have such gifts that are actually rare, as do all of His servants, but I'm not talking about those now. I'm talking about the basics of Christian service and conviction.

But you are the very devil about it, armed by disbelief and scorn.


But as to Romans, you know that the old man must die to come to new life, have you not seem so many converted go just that way? Death is just one step on the road to new life. Everything about the Gospel screams this. The death of the old man is a welcomed death.


What I'm promoting is the very words of My Lord:

"Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

and of course:

"Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. "

I work to promote His Kingdom. Self promotion to some random anti-nomian is worthless to me. But perhaps by our conversation someone WILL take His commands more seriously, and more easily.

 

[mark54]

Nor do you agree with following the basic commands of Christ...

I've said before and will say again, my claims are basic, not extravagant or special. I have such gifts that are actually rare, as do all of His servants, but I'm not talking about those now. I'm talking about the basics of Christian service and conviction.

But you are the very devil about it, armed by disbelief and scorn.


But as to Romans, you know that the old man must die to come to new life, have you not seem so many converted go just that way? Death is just one step on the road to new life. Everything about the Gospel screams this. The death of the old man is a welcomed death.


What I'm promoting is the very words of My Lord:

"Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

and of course:

"Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. "

I work to promote His Kingdom. Self promotion to some random anti-nomian is worthless to me. But perhaps by our conversation someone WILL take His commands more seriously, and more easily.

Just to repeat. You claim that you strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and it is simple and easy for you to obey them all. I leave it up to others as to whether they believe your claims.
I am afraid I cannot take you seriously

But let me repeat, God's laws are perfect and Holy, the problem is with man, not God's laws

 

[JGPS]

Just to repeat. You claim that you strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and it is simple and easy for you to obey them all. I leave it up to others as to whether they believe your claims.
I am afraid I cannot take you seriously

But let me repeat, God's laws are perfect and Holy, the problem is with man, not God's laws

Pro 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

The problem is with Man, so become a New Man. That's what the goal is, that is the only goal. If you cannot believe anyone who has found the same Joy in God's Law that His people have found again and again throughout history then the problem is in you. Your shield is disbelief, your armour is the unrighteousness you cling to when you say the righteousness of God is grievous. Your shoes are scorn and belt suspicions. And your swords is the words of men that tell you this attitude is acceptable.

What are you if there is no joy and ease in obeying Christs commands?

 

[mark54]

Pro 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

The problem is with Man, so become a New Man. That's what the goal is, that is the only goal. If you cannot believe anyone who has found the same Joy in God's Law that His people have found again and again throughout history then the problem is in you. Your shield is disbelief, your armour is the unrighteousness you cling to when you say the righteousness of God is grievous. Your shoes are scorn and belt suspicions. And your swords is the words of men that tell you this attitude is acceptable.

What are you if there is no joy and ease in obeying Christs commands?

'The righteousness of God is grevious' I said that?

Can I ask, what is your righteousness in God's sight?

 

[JGPS]

The commands of God are righteous. You have called them grievous, that is, burdensome and difficult.

 

[Grandpa]

Really? Are you sure about the, "...one and only difference...?

Gen.7
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


So again......Really? So Noah had faith in Jesus Christ? Even BEFORE God told Moses that He would raise up a prophet like unto him, which would be Jesus Christ, just how did Noah have faith in Christ?


.

Yep. Still quite positive of it.

Romans 3:19-22
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[mark54]

Pro 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

The problem is with Man, so become a New Man. That's what the goal is, that is the only goal. If you cannot believe anyone who has found the same Joy in God's Law that His people have found again and again throughout history then the problem is in you. Your shield is disbelief, your armour is the unrighteousness you cling to when you say the righteousness of God is grevious. Your shoes are scorn and belt suspicions. And your swords is the words of men that tell you this attitude is acceptable.

What are you if there is no joy and ease in obeying Christs commands?

So you believe, as does Eccl12and 13 that the Christians righteousness before God is obediance to law/commandments. I guess we got there in the end.
Please check out my following post

 

[mark54]

For in the Gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last
Rom 1:17

But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from, God comes by faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
Rom 3:21&22

For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value, and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath
Rom 4:14&15

Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his site by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14

So my brothers, you also died to the law, through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead.
Rom7:4

Christ is the end of the law, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Rom 10:4

For through the law, I died to the law so that I might live for God
Gal2:19

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written. Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law
Gal 3:10

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law Christ died for nothing.
Gal2:21

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law
Gal3:25

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil 3:9

Pretty conclusive don't you think?

So your righteousness before God is obediance to law/commandments?

 

[JGPS]

I've addressed many of these passages, and expounded on them. Posting scriptures without exposition adds nothing to a conversation.

And posting scriptures without their context is a great deal of why you can't see the bigger picture. Those trees are blocking your view of the Forrest...

You also seem not to actually understand what I'm saying. I had said:

The commands of God are righteous. You have called them grievous, that is, burdensome and difficult.

I have not talked about a persons individual righteousness at all, only stated that it is unrighous to call the commands of God burdensome. It is quite faithless.

 

[mark54]

Pro 14:6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.

The problem is with Man, so become a New Man. That's what the goal is, that is the only goal. If you cannot believe anyone who has found the same Joy in God's Law that His people have found again and again throughout history then the problem is in you. Your shield is disbelief, your armour is the unrighteousness you cling to when you say the righteousness of God is grevious . Your shoes are scorn and belt suspicions. And your swords is the words of men that tell you this attitude is acceptable.

What are you if there is no joy and ease in obeying Christs commands?

I think that is plain as to what you believe.
You have one righteousness before God, the whole of your Christian life, faith in the Son of God who loved you and gave himjself for you

Now you have stated you obey by striving to obey the good and Holy laws of God
What does Paul say brings obediance?

Through him and for his names sake, we received grace and Apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith
Rom1:5
That is a bit different from what you have been stating

So, do you grow in the faith by your own striving and effort?

Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard?
Are you so foolish, after begining with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Gal3:2&3

Spurgeon said that he guessed God chose faith to save us as it cuts out boasting, I agree with that