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Really? I just want you to think about your statement for awhile......I mean REALLY think about what you said above.
Readers.....please do the same. Really THINK about what it is that some people believe.
There are some that truly believe that there were NO LAWS before God gave them to Moses. Does that make ANY sense whatsoever. That until Moses was given the law by God man had NO LAWS that were given by God.
As a matter of fact.....I can PROVE, through the scriptures, that God gave His laws to mankind BEFORE they were given to Moses!
Just because the first time we have a law of God written down and given to Moses does it really make any sense that man did not know what was good and what was wrong in the eyes of God?
Just sit back and think about it for a moment..... And while you are thinking....let's read God's definition of what HE considers sin to be;
1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And WHO's law is it that are transgressed? God's laws. So if anyone has ever committed a sin, it was God's laws that they transgressed or broke. And who has sinned? Who has broken the laws of God?
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Now just how all inclusive is, " all have sinned"? That means that from Adam to now....ALL have sinned.
So thinking back on the claim above....."There absolutely was a time before the Law was given. All the time before Moses"
Just because we cannot read of a written until Moses, could it really mean that there were no laws of God known to mankind before they were given to Moses?
Let's read of a law that was given to Moses;
Exod.21
[28] If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
So let me ask this question....Do you believe that BEFORE Moses, there never was a situation where an ox gored someone before? Did not Abraham have, oxen, sheep, and all sorts of animals? And didn't Abraham and Lot have to separate their animals because of strife? Do ya think there may have been a time when one, or each of their animals had an altercation causing them to have to separate?
Consider this.....the nation of Israel were slaves for over 400 years. Do you not think there were some sort of laws of God that were known by men BEFORE there was a nation of Israel. Let's read God's word to find if men knew of some of God's laws BEFORE we read of them written and given to Moses;
Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So we have record that BEFORE laws were given to Moses Abraham knew of God's laws. Let's read more...
Josh.24
[2] And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.
So we have record of people on the "OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD", that served other god's. And why did God bring the flood in the first place? Because people would not serve Him; they served 'other god's'!
Now let's go even further back;
Gen.4
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
What did God tell Cain what was waiting for him if he continued not to obey? SIN!
And what does God tell us sin is? "...sin is the transgression of the law."!
So at some point God had to tell Cain,Able, Adam, Eve and ALL of His children what was wrong and what was right in His eyes. Do you not think that God spoke to His children? Do you not think that God taught man His laws BEFORE Moses? Do you really think He left it up to man to determine what was right or wrong?
Readers.....again......let's consider the statement, "There absolutely was a time before the Law was given."
Now ask yourselves...."Does it make sense that God gave mankind NONE of His laws until He gave them to Moses?".
Now ask yourselves this, "Why did God punish Cain?", "Why did God bring the flood?", "Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?", "Where did Abraham receive the knowledge of what was right and wrong in God's eyes?"?
God's laws were given to mankind from day ONE! Just because we have no written record until the days of Moses we have proven through scriptures that mankind knew of God's laws, and that God punished mankind for not keeping His laws.
.
Readers.....please do the same. Really THINK about what it is that some people believe.
There are some that truly believe that there were NO LAWS before God gave them to Moses. Does that make ANY sense whatsoever. That until Moses was given the law by God man had NO LAWS that were given by God.
As a matter of fact.....I can PROVE, through the scriptures, that God gave His laws to mankind BEFORE they were given to Moses!
Just because the first time we have a law of God written down and given to Moses does it really make any sense that man did not know what was good and what was wrong in the eyes of God?
Just sit back and think about it for a moment..... And while you are thinking....let's read God's definition of what HE considers sin to be;
1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And WHO's law is it that are transgressed? God's laws. So if anyone has ever committed a sin, it was God's laws that they transgressed or broke. And who has sinned? Who has broken the laws of God?
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Now just how all inclusive is, " all have sinned"? That means that from Adam to now....ALL have sinned.
So thinking back on the claim above....."There absolutely was a time before the Law was given. All the time before Moses"
Just because we cannot read of a written until Moses, could it really mean that there were no laws of God known to mankind before they were given to Moses?
Let's read of a law that was given to Moses;
Exod.21
[28] If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
So let me ask this question....Do you believe that BEFORE Moses, there never was a situation where an ox gored someone before? Did not Abraham have, oxen, sheep, and all sorts of animals? And didn't Abraham and Lot have to separate their animals because of strife? Do ya think there may have been a time when one, or each of their animals had an altercation causing them to have to separate?
Consider this.....the nation of Israel were slaves for over 400 years. Do you not think there were some sort of laws of God that were known by men BEFORE there was a nation of Israel. Let's read God's word to find if men knew of some of God's laws BEFORE we read of them written and given to Moses;
Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So we have record that BEFORE laws were given to Moses Abraham knew of God's laws. Let's read more...
Josh.24
[2] And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.
So we have record of people on the "OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD", that served other god's. And why did God bring the flood in the first place? Because people would not serve Him; they served 'other god's'!
Now let's go even further back;
Gen.4
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
What did God tell Cain what was waiting for him if he continued not to obey? SIN!
And what does God tell us sin is? "...sin is the transgression of the law."!
So at some point God had to tell Cain,Able, Adam, Eve and ALL of His children what was wrong and what was right in His eyes. Do you not think that God spoke to His children? Do you not think that God taught man His laws BEFORE Moses? Do you really think He left it up to man to determine what was right or wrong?
Readers.....again......let's consider the statement, "There absolutely was a time before the Law was given."
Now ask yourselves...."Does it make sense that God gave mankind NONE of His laws until He gave them to Moses?".
Now ask yourselves this, "Why did God punish Cain?", "Why did God bring the flood?", "Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?", "Where did Abraham receive the knowledge of what was right and wrong in God's eyes?"?
God's laws were given to mankind from day ONE! Just because we have no written record until the days of Moses we have proven through scriptures that mankind knew of God's laws, and that God punished mankind for not keeping His laws.
.
E
But can you ignore the fact that a righteous person, to God, is one that is doing their best at keeping His laws and commandments? Is that a false statement based on the scriptures provided;
Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Now let's read what God says of the man that stops sinning;
Ezek.18
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
So according to God, the man that STOPS keeping the laws of God is not longer considered to be righteous, and the sinner that turns and starts to KEEP God's laws is considered to be righteous!
Is the above NOT true?
And is one that God's considers righteous one that is keeping His laws based on the following scripture;
1 Cor.15
[34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
God tells us to awake to righteousness and NOT to sin. If sinning is BREAKING His laws, but we are at the same time to be righteous....then being righteous is NOT breaking His laws.
Is this not true?
.
Eccl,
There was a time before the Torah, which is what most people refer to when they talk about The Law of God. Part of your problem may be a failure to adequately define terms.
Mark,
The Law brings conviction, conviction brings condemnation, commendation brings death. But conviction brings repentance which leads us to Christ. The Law is Holy, and part of the path too salvation... How about instead of excerpts we look at sections of scripture?
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Life without the Law is a life full of enmity with God. It is the carnal life, it is the life we do not want. When we know our sin our old life dies. You must have seen 100 conversions or more even in our time that go exactly like that? The commandments exist to protect our lives and our relationship with God, and once we understand that our sin, our opposition to that Law, is like death to the sinner. That is not a bad death, that is a vital death, a crucial death.
This is how one is 'dead to the law' they are more aptly 'dead through the law'. Being dead to the law does not mean that now that I am Christian I may go steal and fornicate and murder because I am free from the law, it means the law killed the part of me that would want to do such things, and killed my old nature.
Galatians is exactly the same. To say that we are no longer under a schoolmaster is not to say that we now ignore that which we where taught. How fruitless would that be? How foolish?
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Now faith has come to us, and grace. The law should be in our spirit, our very essence. As we have more faith sin has less appeal to us. The law is no longer the bondage to our flesh but freedom to our spirit. It showed us that we needed Christ! It shows us our sin! What greater freedom is there than to have Christ? The law no longer condemns us. We will come to a point when breaking it holds no appeal or temptation to us.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We know the law does not forgive, and because our flesh transgresses the law and the law cannot forgive in and of itself. But it did not exist to save, but to lead us to salvation and forgiveness.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.
Look through scripture, there are not two laws, but one law and one lawgiver. But the law to the carnal man is a totally different thing than the law to the spiritual man. To the carnal man the law is condemnation and bondage and to the spiritual it is freedom and righousness.
There was a time before the Torah, which is what most people refer to when they talk about The Law of God. Part of your problem may be a failure to adequately define terms.
Mark,
The Law brings conviction, conviction brings condemnation, commendation brings death. But conviction brings repentance which leads us to Christ. The Law is Holy, and part of the path too salvation... How about instead of excerpts we look at sections of scripture?
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Life without the Law is a life full of enmity with God. It is the carnal life, it is the life we do not want. When we know our sin our old life dies. You must have seen 100 conversions or more even in our time that go exactly like that? The commandments exist to protect our lives and our relationship with God, and once we understand that our sin, our opposition to that Law, is like death to the sinner. That is not a bad death, that is a vital death, a crucial death.
This is how one is 'dead to the law' they are more aptly 'dead through the law'. Being dead to the law does not mean that now that I am Christian I may go steal and fornicate and murder because I am free from the law, it means the law killed the part of me that would want to do such things, and killed my old nature.
Galatians is exactly the same. To say that we are no longer under a schoolmaster is not to say that we now ignore that which we where taught. How fruitless would that be? How foolish?
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Now faith has come to us, and grace. The law should be in our spirit, our very essence. As we have more faith sin has less appeal to us. The law is no longer the bondage to our flesh but freedom to our spirit. It showed us that we needed Christ! It shows us our sin! What greater freedom is there than to have Christ? The law no longer condemns us. We will come to a point when breaking it holds no appeal or temptation to us.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
We know the law does not forgive, and because our flesh transgresses the law and the law cannot forgive in and of itself. But it did not exist to save, but to lead us to salvation and forgiveness.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.
Look through scripture, there are not two laws, but one law and one lawgiver. But the law to the carnal man is a totally different thing than the law to the spiritual man. To the carnal man the law is condemnation and bondage and to the spiritual it is freedom and righousness.
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That's not proving God gave His Laws to mankind before Moses. That is using backwards reasoning to try and twist scripture to mean what you want it to say.
The fact is the Law was given by Moses. It was given for a purpose and because of transgression.
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Before the Law sin was in the world. I know that's hard for you to fathom.
People transgressed against God before His Law was given. This trangression was called sin. God punished people for their transgression.
When the Law was given this transgression was defined, and sin was imputed.
Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Law entered that the OFFENCE may abound. The Law didn't enter so that men would attain righteousness.
The Lord Jesus Christ has made men righteous by His Work and Sacrifice. We have eternal life and salvation because of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bringing the Law in causes the offence to abound and is for the Lawless and not for the Righteous.
If you are interested in holiness and righteousness you will learn/preach the Lord Jesus Christ, His Grace and Mercy, His Work and His Crucifixion and Sacrifice.
The fact is the Law was given by Moses. It was given for a purpose and because of transgression.
Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Before the Law sin was in the world. I know that's hard for you to fathom.
People transgressed against God before His Law was given. This trangression was called sin. God punished people for their transgression.
When the Law was given this transgression was defined, and sin was imputed.
Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Law entered that the OFFENCE may abound. The Law didn't enter so that men would attain righteousness.
The Lord Jesus Christ has made men righteous by His Work and Sacrifice. We have eternal life and salvation because of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bringing the Law in causes the offence to abound and is for the Lawless and not for the Righteous.
If you are interested in holiness and righteousness you will learn/preach the Lord Jesus Christ, His Grace and Mercy, His Work and His Crucifixion and Sacrifice.
Hi
I'm not sure I quite understand your post. When a person becomes a a Christian the Holy Spirit immediately writes the good and Holy laws of God on the converts heart and mind, meaning they in their hearts want to obey, their hearts have been softened as Ezekiel prophesied would happen(Ezekiel36:26&27) therefore a person, instinctinctively from the moment of conversion knows how God wants them to live and this is what their heart desires. Therefore, as they want to live as God would have them live, their job is to look to Christ and trust him, that they might recieve through the sanctification of the Spirit an ever more, holy and closer walk with the Lord.
I'm not sure I quite understand your post. When a person becomes a a Christian the Holy Spirit immediately writes the good and Holy laws of God on the converts heart and mind, meaning they in their hearts want to obey, their hearts have been softened as Ezekiel prophesied would happen(Ezekiel36:26&27) therefore a person, instinctinctively from the moment of conversion knows how God wants them to live and this is what their heart desires. Therefore, as they want to live as God would have them live, their job is to look to Christ and trust him, that they might recieve through the sanctification of the Spirit an ever more, holy and closer walk with the Lord.
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