Paul did NOT die to the law!

[PS]

Zone,

I listened to the video: Led by the Spirit Part 1 and was left confused about one particular thing and ask that you would clarify it.....I am just copying and pasting the notes I took while listening, so pardon the unorganized arrangement

bring (G71) = led, brought, was changed to carry (G5342) = to bear.

Those in the video basically said that Jesus is not guiding us, but is carrying us by His sovereign word of grace based on Hebrews 2:10 (it behooved Him...in bringing (carrying) many sons to glory...). they who teach that 'led' means subjective guidance has stripped away concrete objective hope that God wants to give us, etc.....

There final answer: to be carried by God to Himself.

Question: were they who were in the wilderness carried or led to the Promised Land?

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before (H6440) them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead (H5148) them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

A primitive root; to guide; by implication to transport (into exile, or as colonists): - bestow, bring, govern, guide, lead (forth), put, straiten.


Seems like this is something different?

 

[JGPS]

I get my food from the supermarket. I get your point that animals have to be killed but I would like to say that farming which was being done as far back as Cain and Able has replaced the need for people to have guns.

It made me think of the O.C. SuperTones

The O.C. Supertones - Prince Of Peace - YouTube

The refrain is

I hope the prince of peace coming soon
We'll learn to make a plowshare from a gun
'Cause we won't need them when the kingdom comes.

Good music.

 

[cfultz3]

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before (H6440) them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead (H5148) them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

A primitive root; to guide; by implication to transport (into exile, or as colonists): - bestow, bring, govern, guide, lead (forth), put, straiten.


Seems like this is something different?

Are you saying they were brought or carried?

 

[JGPS]

Ah, now I see why you believe you keep them all, It's much clearer now.

I study, and do.

Being unjaded helps a lot too.

 

[PS]

Are you are they were brought or carried?

I think they were led, my personal opinion is that if God had brought them or carried them, they would have entered Canaan peacefully without bloodshed.

 

[mark54]

OK, I'm going to go through this where there are bones of contention between us, which is probably pointless, but I will give your post thorough consideration

Mark,

The Law brings conviction, conviction brings condemnation, commendation brings death. But conviction brings repentance which leads us to Christ. The Law is Holy, and part of the path too salvation... How about instead of excerpts we look at sections of scripture?

The Holy Spirit brngs conviction, not the law. But obviously the sin we are convicted of is transgression of the law

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The Life without the Law is a life full of enmity with God. It is the carnal life, it is the life we do not want. When we know our sin our old life dies. You must have seen 100 conversions or more even in our time that go exactly like that? The commandments exist to protect our lives and our relationship with God, and once we understand that our sin, our opposition to that Law, is like death to the sinner. That is not a bad death, that is a vital death, a crucial death.
It is a pity you did not start the above quote at verse 7. I will add the two verses here:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust except the law had said .' Thou shalt not covet.'
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence, for without the law sin was dead verses 7&8
So when the commandment came to Paul(one of the Ten Comandments) sin took occasaion by it to wrought in Paul all mannner of concupiscence(I guess you know the dictionary definition of that word)
Let me emphasise there is nothing wrong with the good and Holy laws of God, but sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived Paul and by it slew him.

You say when we know our sin our old life dies. When we become Christians we have a change of heart, the Holy Spirit now dwells in us, but does our old life immediatelty die?

If while we seek to be justified in Christ , IT BECOMES EVIDENT THAT WE OURSELVES ARE SINNERS, DOES THIS MEAN THAT CHRIST PROMOTES SIN? ABSOLUTELY NOT! iF i REBUILD WHAT I DESTROYED I PROVE VTHAT I AM A LAWBREAKER Gal2:16&17

It takes time, it is a process that continues all our lives. The truth is, (not pure head knowledge from studying)





, that when a person becomes a Christian there is much sin that has wrapped itself tightly around the individual that takes time for the person to be released from BY FAITH IN CHRIST. Much sin can immediately be stopped, but much cannot

The literal law of the commandments DO NOT exist to protect our lives. I really don't know where you are coming from with this. Example:
I walk down the street one day, I see a good looking lady on the other side of the road, I have unwholesome thoughts about her, I am IMMEDIATELY convicted in my spirit that I have had impure/wrong thoughts concerning the woman. Have I had to think of a literal commandment, or commandment of Christ to know this? No I have not, no literal law/commandemtn has flashed before my mind? Why not? Because the good and Holy laws of God he wouild have me keep have been WRITTEN ON MY HEART AND MIND BY THE SPIRIT. I repeat, I do not understand your fixation with the literal law, it is a mystery to me.

This is how one is 'dead to the law' they are more aptly 'dead through the law'. Being dead to the law does not mean that now that I am Christian I may go steal and fornicate and murder because I am free from the law, it means the law killed the part of me that would want to do such things, and killed my old nature.

Can you show me chapter and verse where it states knowing the law, killed the part of me that wants to sin, do wrong?
The law makes me conscious of my sin Rom3:20


not to say that we now ignore that which we where taught. How fruitless would that be? How foolish?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Now faith has come to us, and grace. The law should be in our spirit, our very essence. As we have more faith sin has less appeal to us. The law is no longer the bondage to our flesh but freedom to our spirit. It showed us that we needed Christ! It shows us our sin! What greater freedom is there than to have Christ? The law no longer condemns us. We will come to a point when breaking it holds no appeal or temptation to us.

Now I agree, the law is in our Spirit, our very essence, so why the fixation with the literal law?
You say we come to a point where breaking the law holds no appeal or temptation to us.
So you are therefore saying we come to a point where we live perfect lives on earth, are in a sinless state. I do not accept that. I will never on this earth be perfect in the flesh, I am a work in progress the whole of my Christian life, there will always be room for improvement.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

We know the law does not forgive, and because our flesh transgresses the law and the law cannot forgive in and of itself. But it did not exist to save, but to lead us to salvation and forgiveness.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I love Rom 8:1-4

The law is evil to those it condemns, but it is righteous to those that walk after the spirit of God. This is vital, to remember, and said plainly in scripture. When you walk in the Spirit of God you will understand that His ways are right, He is right, His law is good.

Of course the Christian knows God's ways are right, for the Holy Spirit lives in them. I agrere, the law is evil to an unsaved person, those it condemns. God's laws are perfect and Holy, but they do not bring righeousness to a Christian whose life more reflects adherence to them. The Christian only has one righteousness, faith in Christ.

Look through scripture, there are not two laws, but one law and one lawgiver. But the law to the carnal man is a totally different thing than the law to the spiritual man. To the carnal man the law is condemnation and bondage and to the spiritual it is freedom and righousness.

There is one law, never said there were two, that was your interpretaion(wrongly), but Christ upped the law so to speak, as I am sure I do not need to go into with you
Now I hope you appreciate I have been through this post studiously
Some advice to you. Do not proclaim you look to each and every literal command of Christ and easily obey them all, no one will take you seriously if you do

A question, how could sin use one of the Ten commandments to bring about in Paul all manner of concupiscence?

 

[mark54]

I study, and do.

Being unjaded helps a lot too.

Some people study hugely, and have a 'pat theology' in their heads, which does not reflect much spiritual truth and reality , or reality in the life of a converts walk

 

[zone]

Zone,

I listened to the video: Led by the Spirit Part 1 and was left confused about one particular thing and ask that you would clarify it.....I am just copying and pasting the notes I took while listening, so pardon the unorganized arrangement

bring (G71) = led, brought, was changed to carry (G5342) = to bear.

Those in the video basically said that Jesus is not guiding us, but is carrying us by His sovereign word of grace based on Hebrews 2:10 (it behooved Him...in bringing (carrying) many sons to glory...). they who teach that 'led' means subjective guidance has stripped away concrete objective hope that God wants to give us, etc.....

There final answer: to be carried by God to Himself.

Question: were they who were in the wilderness carried or led to the Promised Land?

hi cfultz.
i was a little surprised you didn't comment on the strength of what led means.
interesting. didn't you find great comfort in the exegesis?

um....no....they did not say Jesus is not guiding us.
they said the greek word ago (led) is much stronger than subjectively calling.

did you look at all the times the term ago is used? when Paul was arrested and taken away - ago, etc.

in any case, i'm not interested in a debate over it. just offered it for your edification.

whether one actually references every use of ago [and equivolent] in the greek or not, whether one believes that the Spirit is actually commissioned with and will not fail in His task of delivering the bride to God.....led (ago) NEVER means subjective leading, i.e: "zone! come this way....turn left....hurry....wait here...sit down....look for a yellow door...interpret this dream...listen for a small still voice," etc.

no one is suggesting the Christian is literally levitated by the invisible God in His invisible arms and literally carried through life not doing anything.

i suspect you're worried about us not playing enough of a role in our salvation?

that's got nothing to do with the studies.
the studies focus on the objective strength of the term ago.
which is thoroughly consistent with God's Nature, Plan, Ability and Desire to deliver many sons to Glory.
love zone.

 

[zone]

they said the greek word ago (led) is much stronger than subjectively calling.

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

agó: to lead, bring, carry
Original Word: ἄγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-o)
Short Definition: I lead
Definition: I lead, lead away, bring (a person, or animal), guide, spend a day, go.

STRONGS NT 71: ἄγω

ἄγω; imperfect ἦγον; future ἄξω; 2 aorist ἤγαγον, infinitive ἀγαγεῖν (more rarely 1 aorist ᾖξα, in ἐπάγω 2 Peter 2:5); passive, present ά᾿γομαι; imperfect ἠγόμην; 1 aorist ἤχθην; 1 future ἀχθήσομαι; (from Homer down); to drive, lead.

1. properly (A. V. ordinarily, to bring);

a. to lead by laying hold of, and in this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal, Matthew 21:7; Luke 19:35; Mark 11:7 (T Tr WH φέρουσιν (Luke 19:30); τινα followed by εἰς with the accusative of place, Luke 4:9 (others refer this to 2 c.); Luke 10:34; (ἤγαγον καί εἰσήγαγον, Luke 22:54); John 18:28; Acts 6:12; Acts 9:2; Acts 17:5 (R G); Rec.; ; ἐπί with the accusative, Acts 17:19; ἕως, Luke 4:29; πρός τινα, to persons, Luke (Luke 4:40); ; Acts 9:27; John 8:3 (Rec.).

b. to lead by accompanying to (into) any place: εἰς, Acts 11:26 (Acts 11:25); ἕως, Acts 17:15; πρός τινα, to persons, John 1:42 (John 1:43); ; Acts 23:18; followed by the dative of person to whom, Acts 21:16 on which see Winers Grammar, 214 (201) at length (cf. Buttmann, 284 (244)) (1 Macc. 7:2 ἄγειν αὐτούς αὐτ&#8183.

c. to lead with oneself, attach to oneself as an attendant: τινα, 2 Timothy 4:11; 1 Thessalonians 4:14 (Josephus, Antiquities 10, 9, 6 ἀπῆρεν εἰς τήν Αἴγυπτον ἀγών καί Ιερεμια&#957. Some refer Acts 21:16 to this head, resolving it ἄγοντες Μνάσωνα παρ' ᾧ ξενισθῶμεν, but incorrectly, see Winers Grammar (and Buttmann) as above.

d. to conduct, bring: τινα (Luke 19:27); John 7:45; (John 19:4, 13); Acts 5:21, 26,(); ; πῶλον, Mark 11:2 (where T Tr WH φέρετε (Luke 19:30, see a. above); τινα τίνι or τί τίνι, Matthew 21:2; Acts 13:23 G L T Tr WH.

e. to lead away, to a court of justice, magistrate, etc.: simply, Mark 13:11; (Acts 25:17); ἐπί with the accusative, Matthew 10:18; Luke 21:12 (T Tr WH ἀπαγομένους; (Luke 23:1); Acts (Acts 9:21); Acts 18:12; (often in Attic); (πρός with the accusative, John 18:13 L T Tr WH); to punishment: simply (2 Macc. 6:29 2Macc. 7:18, etc.), John 19:16 Griesbach (R καί ἀπήγαγον, which L T Tr WH have expunged); with the telic infinitive, Luke 23:32; (followed by ἵνα, Mark 15:20 Lachmann); ἐπί σφαγήν, Acts 8:32 (ἐπί θανάτῳ, Xenophon, mem. 4, 4, 3; an. 1, 6, 10).

2. tropically,

a. to lead, guide, direct: John 10:16; εἰς μετάνοιαν, Romans 2:4.

b. to lead through, conduct, to something, become the author of good or of evil to some one: εἰς δόξαν, Hebrews 2:10 (εἰς (others, ἐπ&#943 καλοκἀγαθίαν, Xenophon, mem. 1, 6, 14; εἰς δουλείαν, Demosthenes, p. 213, 28).

c. to more, impel, of forces and influences affecting the mind: Luke 4:1 (where read ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ (with L text T Tr WH)); πνεύματι Θεοῦ ἄγεσθαι, Romans 8:14; Galatians 5:18; ἐπιθυμίαις, 2 Timothy 3:6; simply, urged on by blind impulse, 1 Corinthians 12:2 — unless impelled by Satan's influence be preferable, cf. 1 Corinthians 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; (Buttmann, 383f (328f)).

3. to pass a day, keep or celebrate a feast, etc.: τρίτην ἡμέραν ἄγει namely, ὁ Ἰσραήλ, Luke 24:21 (others (see Meyer) supply αὐτός or ὁ Ἰησοῦς; still others take ἄγει as impersonal, one passes, Vulg.tertiadiesest; see Buttmann, 134 (118)); γενεσίων ἀγομένων, Matthew 14:6 R G; ἀγοραῖοι (which see, 2), Acts 19:38; often in the O. T. Apocrypha (cf. Wahl, Claris Apocr. under the word ἄγω, 3), in Herodotus and Attic writers.

4. intransitive, to go, depart (Winers Grammar, § 38, 1, p. 251 (236); (Buttmann, 144 (126))): ἄγωμεν let us go, Matthew 26:46; Mark 14:42; John 14:31; πρός τινα, John 11:15; εἰς with the accusative of place, Mark 1:38; John 11:7 (Epictetus diss. 3, 22, 55 ἄγωμεν, ἐπί τόν ἀνθύπατον (followed by ἵνα, John 11:16. Compare: ἀνάγω, ἐπανάγω, ἀπάγω, συναπάγω, διάγω, εἰσάγω, παρεισάγω, ἐξάγω, ἐπάγω, κατάγω, μετάγω παράγω, περιάγω, προάγω, προσάγω, συνάγω, ἐπισυνάγω, ὑπάγω. Synonym: cf. Schmidt, chapter 105.)

 

[zone]

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

agó: to lead, bring, carry
Original Word: ἄγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-o)
Short Definition: I lead
Definition: I lead, lead away, bring (a person, or animal), guide, spend a day, go.

Matthew 10:18 V-FIP-2P
BIB: καὶ βασιλεῖς ἀχθήσεσθε ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ
NAS: and you will even be brought before
KJV: And ye shall be brought before
INT: and kings you will be brought on account of me
Matthew 21:2 V-AMA-2P
BIB: αὐτῆς λύσαντες ἀγάγετέ μοι
NAS: with her; untie them and bring them to Me.
KJV: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
INT: her having untied [them] bring [them] to me

Matthew 21:7 V-AIA-3P
BIB: ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον
NAS: and brought the donkey and the colt,
KJV: And brought the ass, and
INT: they brought the donkey

Matthew 26:46 V-PSA-1P
BIB: ἐγείρεσθε ἄγωμεν ἰδοὺ ἤγγικεν
NAS: Get up, let us be going; behold,
KJV: Rise, let us be going: behold,
INT: Rise up let us go behold has drawn near

Mark 1:38 V-PSA-1P
BIB: λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἄγωμεν ἀλλαχοῦ εἰς
NAS: He said to them, Let us go somewhere else
KJV: unto them, Let us go into
INT: he says to them Let us go another way into

Mark 13:11 V-PSA-3P
BIB: καὶ ὅταν ἄγωσιν ὑμᾶς παραδιδόντες
NAS: When they arrest you and hand
KJV: when they shall lead [you], and deliver
INT: But when they might lead away you delivering [you] up

Mark 14:42 V-PSA-1P
BIB: ἐγείρεσθε ἄγωμεν ἰδοὺ ὁ
NAS: Get up, let us be going; behold,
KJV: Rise up, let us go; lo,
INT: Rise let us go behold he who

Luke 4:1 V-IIM/P-3S
BIB: Ἰορδάνου καὶ ἤγετο ἐν τῷ
NAS: from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit
KJV: Jordan, and was led by the Spirit
INT: Jordan and was led by the

Luke 4:9 V-AIA-3S
BIB: Ἤγαγεν δὲ αὐτὸν
NAS: And he led Him to Jerusalem
KJV: And he brought him to
INT: he led also him

Luke 4:29 V-AIA-3P
BIB: πόλεως καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν ἕως
NAS: Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow
KJV: the city, and led him unto
INT: city and led him unto

Luke 4:40 V-AIA-3P
BIB: νόσοις ποικίλαις ἤγαγον αὐτοὺς πρὸς
NAS: diseases brought them to Him; and laying
KJV: with divers diseases brought them unto
INT: with diseases various brought them to

Luke 10:34 V-AIA-3S
BIB: ἴδιον κτῆνος ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν εἰς
NAS: beast, and brought him to an inn
KJV: his own beast, and brought him to
INT: own beast brought him to

Luke 18:40 V-ANP
BIB: ἐκέλευσεν αὐτὸν ἀχθῆναι πρὸς αὐτόν
NAS: and commanded that he be brought to Him; and when he came near,
KJV: him to be brought unto
INT: commanded him to be brought to him

Luke 19:27 V-AMA-2P
BIB: ἐπ' αὐτοὺς ἀγάγετε ὧδε καὶ
NAS: over them, bring them here
KJV: over them, bring hither, and
INT: over them bring here and

Luke 19:30 V-AMA-2P
BIB: λύσαντες αὐτὸν ἀγάγετε
NAS: sat; untie it and bring it [here].
KJV: loose him, and bring [him hither].
INT: having untied it bring [it]

Luke 19:35 V-AIA-3P
BIB: καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν πρὸς
NAS: They brought it to Jesus,
KJV: And they brought him to
INT: And they led it to

Luke 22:54 V-AIA-3P
BIB: δὲ αὐτὸν ἤγαγον καὶ εἰσήγαγον
NAS: Having arrested Him, they led Him [away] and brought
KJV: him, and led [him], and
INT: moreover him they led [him away] and led

etc etc etc

Strong's Greek 71
69 Occurrences

 

[tribesman]

Paul didn't die to the law as such, just from his striving to be justified through it.

Gal.2

[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
[18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal.3

[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Phil.3

[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[cfultz3]

hi cfultz.
i was a little surprised you didn't comment on the strength of what led means. In the 70 instances of the word's occurance, it was translated as carry only once. And even in that instance, it could have been translated as 'bring him to the castle'. The strength of the word is to lead, to bring, to drive. But on the other hand, the strength of G5342 is = to bear, to carry.

Like I said, it was my notes as I was listening to that video. So, nauturally, it was not all complete.

interesting. didn't you find great comfort in the exegesis? As to the answers to the other 2 questions, I did find things said to the contrary, or were not aware of things which alerted me.

um....no....they did not say Jesus is not guiding us.
they said the greek word ago (led) is much stronger than subjectively calling.
Please see 19:18 through 20:30. Yes, they implied that Jesus was not guiding us but is carrying us. But say that what they said as their final answer to that question of, 'what does it mean to be led', does equal 'to be carried by God to Himself', is true. If God carries us once we accept Him as Savior, then whom will He reward with everlasting life, wreaths, and the many things which belong to the sons of God? Will He reward Himself for the deeds He has done through us, or are we rewarded for a job well done, as Jesus was rewarded for the Work He did?

did you look at all the times the term ago is used? when Paul was arrested and taken away - ago, etc. -- I looked at some of the verses to get enough sense out of it to understand that G71 means to lead, as oppose to G5342 meaning to carry. Yes I did and as much as a prisoner of today is chained hand and foot and which are still able to walk themselves, I saw no indication, just because he was chained, that he had to be carried to the castle. But if you know where an implication is given as to him having to be carried, will you let me know?

in any case, i'm not interested in a debate over it. just offered it for your edification. Thank you. The other two parts were interesting. So is this one.

whether one actually references every use of ago [and equivolent] in the greek or not, whether one believes that the Spirit is actually commissioned with and will not fail in His task of delivering the bride to God --OH SISTER, the Spirit will lead the BRIDE to Christ, I have never doubted this. But what I do understand, some will choice to walk away, much as Adam and Even and some angels choose to walk away from that same fellowship with God. If I ever gave you the impression that the Spirit is not able to do what God Himself as set out to do, I apologise.


.....led (ago) NEVER means subjective leading, i.e: "zone! come this way....turn left....hurry....wait here...sit down....look for a yellow door...interpret this dream...listen for a small still voice," etc. Come and follow me...Seek the LORD and He will be found...Has not God given to us His good Spirit to instruct us upon the faith's course?

no one is suggesting the Christian is literally levitated by the invisible God in His invisible arms and literally carried through life not doing anything. Never did I suggest that was being literally said. Sorry from having given you that implication. I know we are speaking spiritual. But if we are spiritually carried through our faith's walk, then we are led back to God rewarding Himself for having done a good job through a person.

i suspect you're worried about us not playing enough of a role in our salvation? No Zone. I am not looking for credit for my salvation. I simply accept that we choose to obey, just as Jesus did. Why does it always fall back to one looking for credit for his salvation when that four letter word 'work' is mentioned? Shoot, even faith could be considered a work if one wishes to go there. If faith is a verb, then it is an action and if an action then a work. Even being co-workers with Christ in His harvest is a work. Anyways, all I am simply saying is that we are beings with wills. At what point in our walk does God pick us up and carries us to the finish line? Does it not say that the Spirit is a Helper, or does it say that He is a Carrier?

that's got nothing to do with the studies. Yes, but nevertheless it was mentioned
the studies focus on the objective strength of the term ago.
which is thoroughly consistent with God's Nature, Plan, Ability and Desire to deliver many sons to Glory.
love zone.

................

 

[cfultz3]

Matthew 10:18 V-FIP-2P
BIB: καὶ βασιλεῖς ἀχθήσεσθε ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ
NAS: and you will even be brought before -led before or carried before?
KJV: And ye shall be brought before
INT: and kings you will be brought on account of me
Matthew 21:2 V-AMA-2P
BIB: αὐτῆς λύσαντες ἀγάγετέ μοι
NAS: with her; untie them and bring them to Me.
KJV: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
INT: her having untied [them] bring [them] to me

Matthew 21:7 V-AIA-3P
BIB: ἤγαγον τὴν ὄνον
NAS: and brought the donkey and the colt, did they carry the donkey or led him?
KJV: And brought the ass, and
INT: they brought the donkey

Matthew 26:46 V-PSA-1P
BIB: ἐγείρεσθε ἄγωμεν ἰδοὺ ἤγγικεν
NAS: Get up, let us be going; behold, did they carry themselves away or led themselves away?
KJV: Rise, let us be going: behold,
INT: Rise up let us go behold has drawn near

Mark 1:38 V-PSA-1P
BIB: λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἄγωμεν ἀλλαχοῦ εἰς
NAS: He said to them, Let us go somewhere else did they bring themselves somewhere else or carry themselves?
KJV: unto them, Let us go into
INT: he says to them Let us go another way into

Mark 13:11 V-PSA-3P
BIB: καὶ ὅταν ἄγωσιν ὑμᾶς παραδιδόντες
NAS: When they arrest you and hand
KJV: when they shall lead [you], and deliver
INT: But when they might lead away you delivering [you] up

Mark 14:42 V-PSA-1P
BIB: ἐγείρεσθε ἄγωμεν ἰδοὺ ὁ
NAS: Get up, let us be going; behold,
KJV: Rise up, let us go; lo,
INT: Rise let us go behold he who

Luke 4:1 V-IIM/P-3S
BIB: Ἰορδάνου καὶ ἤγετο ἐν τῷ
NAS: from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit
KJV: Jordan, and was led by the Spirit
INT: Jordan and was led by the

Luke 4:9 V-AIA-3S
BIB: Ἤγαγεν δὲ αὐτὸν
NAS: And he led Him to Jerusalem
KJV: And he brought him to
INT: he led also him

Luke 4:29 V-AIA-3P
BIB: πόλεως καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν ἕως
NAS: Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow
KJV: the city, and led him unto
INT: city and led him unto

Luke 4:40 V-AIA-3P
BIB: νόσοις ποικίλαις ἤγαγον αὐτοὺς πρὸς
NAS: diseases brought them to Him; and laying
KJV: with divers diseases brought them unto
INT: with diseases various brought them to

Luke 10:34 V-AIA-3S
BIB: ἴδιον κτῆνος ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν εἰς
NAS: beast, and brought him to an inn
KJV: his own beast, and brought him to
INT: own beast brought him to

Luke 18:40 V-ANP
BIB: ἐκέλευσεν αὐτὸν ἀχθῆναι πρὸς αὐτόν
NAS: and commanded that he be brought to Him; and when he came near,
KJV: him to be brought unto
INT: commanded him to be brought to him

Luke 19:27 V-AMA-2P
BIB: ἐπ' αὐτοὺς ἀγάγετε ὧδε καὶ
NAS: over them, bring them here
KJV: over them, bring hither, and
INT: over them bring here and

Luke 19:30 V-AMA-2P
BIB: λύσαντες αὐτὸν ἀγάγετε
NAS: sat; untie it and bring it [here].
KJV: loose him, and bring [him hither].
INT: having untied it bring [it]

Luke 19:35 V-AIA-3P
BIB: καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν πρὸς
NAS: They brought it to Jesus,
KJV: And they brought him to
INT: And they led it to

Luke 22:54 V-AIA-3P
BIB: δὲ αὐτὸν ἤγαγον καὶ εἰσήγαγον
NAS: Having arrested Him, they led Him [away] and brought
KJV: him, and led [him], and
INT: moreover him they led [him away] and led

etc etc etc

Strong's Greek 71
69 Occurrences

etc, etc, etc

I hope you understand what I am trying to say in those very few comments above

 

[zone]

................

hi brother

me:
"no one is suggesting the Christian is literally levitated by the invisible God in His invisible arms and literally carried through life not doing anything. "

you:
Never did I suggest that was being literally said. Sorry from having given you that implication. I know we are speaking spiritual. But if we are spiritually carried through our faith's walk, then we are led back to God rewarding Himself for having done a good job through a person."

?

the subject was Romans 8.
the entire chapter is about God's Plan in Christ.
it is for our comfort.

i don't know how anyone can read this chapter and not see it for what it says.

are we putting away the deeds of the flesh?
are we born again?

what made us want this life?
where did this thirst for the scriptures come from?
why do we say no to the things we used to say yes to?
are we changed?

does the Spirit dwell in us?
have we truly received the the Spirit of adoption?
is God saying we can call Him Papa?
does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit that we are children of God?
are we heirs of the Promise?
are we sons of God?
are we led by the Spirit of God?

how determined is God to finish what He started?
does The Spirit intercede for us when we're slow to pray and unable to think?
is He actually doing a work only He can "see"?
is He like the wind?

does this chapter say it adequately?




Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,d we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[cfultz3]

hi brother


the subject was Romans 8.
the entire chapter is about God's Plan in Christ.
it is for our comfort.

i don't know how anyone can read this chapter and not see it for what it says.

are we putting away the deeds of the flesh?
are we born again?

what made us want this life?
where did this thirst for the scriptures come from?
why do we say no to the things we used to say yes to?
are we changed?

does the Spirit dwell in us?
have we truly received the the Spirit of adoption?
is God saying we can call Him Papa?
does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit that we are children of God?
are we heirs of the Promise?
are we sons of God?
are we led by the Spirit of God?

how determined is God to finish what he started?
does this chapter say it adequately?

Just one simple question: was it you who went and answered the door?

 

[zone]

Just one simple question: was it you who went and answered the door?

okay cfultz....
if you want me to say something like....i heard a knock and knew it was Jesus and opened the door to allow Him to offer me salvation, and i in my right-minded freewill uprightness accepted His offer....

no.

i won't say that.

i will say i was dead and blind and He came for me. He IS the DOOR.

i didn't know until later that He had saved me

i know you may not like that idea, but that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
my story is a little like Paul's....i had my own plan.
thankfully my plan didn't work out.


Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

love zone.

 

[cfultz3]

okay cfultz....
if you want me to say something like....i heard a knock and knew it was Jesus and opened the door to allow Him to offer me salvation, and i in my right-minded freewill uprightness accepted His offer....

no.

i won't say that.

i will say i was dead and blind and He came for me. He IS the DOOR.

i didn't know until later that He had saved me

i know you may not like that idea, but that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
my story is a little like Paul's....i had my own plan.
thankfully my plan didn't work out.


Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

love zone.

thank you for replying, Zone.

 

[PS]

okay cfultz....
if you want me to say something like....i heard a knock and knew it was Jesus and opened the door to allow Him to offer me salvation, and i in my right-minded freewill uprightness accepted His offer....

no.

i won't say that.

i will say i was dead and blind and He came for me. He IS the DOOR.

i didn't know until later that He had saved me

i know you may not like that idea, but that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
my story is a little like Paul's....i had my own plan.
thankfully my plan didn't work out.
<snip>

love zone.

I'm reminded of the horse that is led to water but won't drink.

We are led by the Holy Spirit but like the Samaritan woman at the well we need to drink the living water.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What about king david? You know the one who was considered a man after Gods own heart. who by the way, had many wives, thus was an adulterer until the day he died..

same with Abraham. are they in hell today because they were murderers and adulterers?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

TO this post:
Originally Posted by cfultz3

Instead of trying to keep commandments, why not follow were one is led to and thus, the law is kept?


PS responded: Would that apply to the murderer and the adulterer?


My reply: does the Spirit lead sinners or saints?

in reality., he leads sinners. who have been saved by Grace, if we could stop being sinners, we would stop having the need to be lead by the spirit. and the need for grace.