Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[jimmydiggs]

This is how I see it, we were born in sin,which means by nature we sin,or in other words we do nothing but sin,us choosing to do right thing is sin, our righteousness stinks to him.so I do beleive in total depravity.

Amen to that.

We humans are monsters of iniquity. It is a tremendous mercy on God's behalf, that the bible didn't end at Genesis 3.

 

[zone]

What does FREE INDEED mean to you?
What does REDEEMED FROM ALL INIQUITY mean to you?
What does PURITY mean to you? Mostly pure?

how long have you been pure skinski?

what was the day, hour and minute on the clock?

surely you'll remember being glorified?

do your friends have to cover your face with a cloth?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We humans are a disgusting filfth. Scum of the earth we are. Total Depravity is just the polite way to say it.

This is the way I take it also.

I just believe even as scum, we have the ability to call out to God for help of our own free will.. If we listen to the schoolmaster, which leads us to Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen to that.

We humans are monsters of iniquity. It is a tremendous mercy on God's behalf, that the bible didn't end at Genesis 3.

Amen. That is why in a sense. Grace is given to every man woman and child who was born after genesis three.. Not saying they are saved, Just saying the fact God allows them to live to give them the chance to be saved shows alot about the integrity of God.

 

[zone]

I wasn't aware Mark the Evangelist was a partaker of Cinnamon bread.

Oh, wait, you mean another Mark!

newly born christian woman tries to tell her live-in boyfriend Paul says they have to be married....he spins around in a jealous fit "Paul who???"

 

[Skinski7]

My response is long simply because I prefer to establish a clear foundation for my assertions. Those with short attention spans need not read it.

I know I said not to parse posts but since I don't feel like rewriting this essay I will have to answer it in parts.

I'm in Red.

Skinski in BLUE.

Man can CHOOSE to do whether he will yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God or he can CHOOSE not to. Righteousness is simply doing the right thing by faith (from the heart). Agreed.


We are all born naturally inclined to fall short because we are all born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Yielding to the flesh in an unlawful manner is a VERY EASY thing to do and without an understanding of the true consequences of such and action and without having a manifest inward charity (agape) it is no wonder that ALL human beings, when able to reason, freely CHOOSE to sin.

Original Sin teaches that human beings are BORN EVIL and HATING GOD and it also teaches that human beings are BORN GUILTY.This contention is false. Total depravity means no such thing. It simply means that the human condition is apart from God, and no effort can be made in one's own power to rectify the situation. Total Depravity and Original Sin are connected together thus one cannot really discuss one without the other. While "Total Depravity" in and of itself may not teach one is born guilty the doctrine of Original Sin does. The doctrine of Total Depravity is borne out of the doctrine of Original Sin.

While it is true that different people teach Original Sin in different ways I am speaking of the most common views of it. Original Sin is rooted in Augustinian Theology.

Augustine taught the Traducianist view where all human beings are implicated in the guilt of Adam due to being present in his loins. This is one reason that Augustine was to conclude that unbaptised infants go to hell. John Calvin upheld this view and called it the "Deadly Decree."

Reformed Theology clearly teaches that men are born evil and hating God. They teach that one cannot turn to God unless God irresistibly draws him thus denying "free will" because "man is disabled" from the virtuous choice.

I quoted the Westminster Confession earlier which says this...

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

The Westminster Confession is not some obscure work, it is held in high esteem by many.

It is quite erroneous to state, "the human condition is apart from God, and no effort can be made in one's own power to rectify the situation," because in that statement it is implied that God has to manifest a kind of grace in order to offset this inability, the Reformers teach "Irresistible Grace" while the Arminians teach "Prevenient Grace." The Bible teaches neither but states...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

No man is "disabled" because God has granted all men the ability to choose as to whether they wish to yield to good or yield to evil. Bear in mind that once one has yielded to evil to then yield to good does not undo the transgression, hence the need for the death of Christ, so don't think I am saying that man can save himself.

Salvation is completely reliant on the grace of God in a similar way that a car is reliant on a "road" to get somewhere. The error with Total Depravity is that it teaches that there is a time when the "road does not exist." This is not true.

That contention is error. You are not born in a "totally depraved" state which necessitates that you sin. If that is the case then sin IS NOT a choice but a disease and you cannot repent and forsake a disease. Hence the entire Gospel message must be redefined to fit Original Sin.Here is a mistake in logic.
By comparing the separated condition of mankind with a choice to be attained he negates the work of Christ. I would make an educated guess that you hold to the doctrine of Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ, which teaches that Jesus was "punished by God in your place" (paid your fine) and that His obedient track record (His righteousness) is credited to your account. In other words, "in God's eyes you swapped place with Jesus so when He sees you He actually sees the righteousness of Jesus."

That "transfer of virtue and vice between you and Christ" is likely the "FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST" in your mind. Thus what I am teaching clearly contradicts and thus "negates this judicial transfer."

Indeed it does because the Penal Substitution view of the atonement and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ are both doctrine of recent invention. They are both reformed doctrines which were never taught in the early church and cannot be found in the Bible except by isolating and twisting a few so-called "Proof Texts."

Substitution is not the message of the Gospel nor it is the message of the Cross. Jesus RANSOMED us from the power of darkness by submitting Himself and overcoming all things, including death. We are to DIE WITH HIM in order that we be RAISED UP WITH HIM to newness of life. It is only through the death of the old man that we can be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

I would encourage you to examine the origin and history of the Penal Substitution and Imputed Righteousness of Christ doctrines. Try and find in the Bible where it says that "Jesus paid your fine" or where "the righeousness of Christ is credited to your account." Faith is imputed as righteousness, not the obedience of Jesus.

The fact that you have redefined my comments into you asserting that I say "not one soul is born naturally inclined to fall short" is a clear example of creating a strawman with which to deal with. Don't do it please. I cannot have a conversation with someone who does this because they are in effect "conversing with their imagination." You said it before in those words, and you have just reiterated it. You twisted my words and states that I was teaching that no-one is born "naturally inclined" to do evil. We all have a natural inclination to do evil and that inclination is through the natural inclinations of the flesh. We also have a natural inclination to do good through the light of conscience. Total Depravity negates the ability to choose virtue.

Abel CHOSE virtue. Noah CHOSE virtue. Job CHOSE virtue. John the Baptist's parents CHOSE virtue. How do you explain those people in the light of Total Depravity?

I suppose the reformers have to put "Common Grace" in there which offsets their inability to virtue. What a mess. The doctrine of being BORN Totally Depraved is pure FICTION and contradicts simple logic.

How did Nineveh forsake their rebellion and turn to God? Was that "Irresistible Grace"? None of those terms in the Bible. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly uprightly in the present age. That is what the Bible teaches.

You say...

Which is exactly what James teaches so very clearly.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The lust in question in that verse IS NOT sin. It is TEMPTATION. Temptation IS NOT sin. Augustine heavily implied in his writings that temptation WAS sin and he used concupiscence as PROOF that men are born sinful. He completely neglected Gen 3:6 which shows the lusts of the flesh active in Eve BEFORE she sinned. This is very basic stuff.Seeing something is good to eat is lust? Are you serious? When a person sums up a purchase, whether it is worth the price or not are they lusting? Is evaluation lust? You are in error. The sin did not happen until she partook of the fruit. There was no sin of lust before hand. She was talked into it, fooled, bamboozled, the Bible clearly states that. She was tempted and believed the lie. Not lust in the sense of lusting after a woman unlawfully. When I say "lusts of the flesh" I mean the "natural passions and desires" and you should be able to clearly see that.

For example the "sexual desire" of a human being is NATURAL. It is not sinful. It is only sinful to YIELD to sexual desire in an unlawful manner, ie. lusting in the mind after a woman, pornography, fornication, adultery. The marriage bed is undefiled so there is nothing wrong with sexual desire in and of itself.

Those that are Christ's have CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH THE PASSIONS AND DESIRES which means the natural desires have been brought into submission to the Spirit. Hence we WALK after the Spirit and not the flesh.

Yes, Eve was tempted and deceived but she also KNOWINGLY SINNED. She knew what God had commanded. Adam was not deceived which indicates he did what he did to save or please Eve.

Genesis 3:6 clearly states that Eve was drawn away by the lusts of her flesh (passions and desires if you prefer).

It's as if she was talked into buying a car that is a lemon. The sin nature : lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life are results of sin, not temptations before it. Here you are in serious error. You refute yourself because you say to be tempted is not a sin, yet you accuse Eve of lust of the eyes before she partook of the tree. You are in serious error. No error at all, you simply miscontrue what I say.


Read carefully...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James uses the term "lust."

G1939 - Lust - epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Compare to this verse...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Temptation is COMMON TO MAN. Was Jesus a man?

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was tempted IN ALL POINTS as we are. Think about that.

Did Jesus have a "sin nature" or did Jesus have the same "passions and desires of the flesh" that we have?

I say Jesus had the same passions and desires as we have and yet RULED OVER THEM.

Eve was drawn away by her passions and desires...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So the Bible teaches that Eve was drawn by her natural desires into sinning. EXACTLY as James describes.

Are you really going to contend that what James is speaking of in Jam 1:14-15 is different to that which is illustrated in Gen 3:6?

If it is different then how was Jesus tempted in ALL POINTS as we are?

See the "being born with a sin nature" does not make logical sense in the light of scripture. The entire doctrine has more holes than a sponge used as a target at a shooting range.

What is not of God is walking as a BEAST. Thus...

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

We are to set our minds on heavenly things, not earthy things. Hence a Christian walks in the Spirit yielding to God and not as a beast serving base desires.

Again, this is all very simple.

Gen 4:7 teaches the same thing, "sin lies at the door."

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin is a choice not a disease. By redefining sin as a disease completely neutralises repentance. The early church DID NOT teach Original Sin. Why didn't they? Ask yourself that question. Why didn't the early church teach it?What are you saying? Is Paul early enough for you? Romans 7:23 " But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Read all of Romans 6,7 and 8 very carefullly.

The law in Paul's member is the BEAST MAN. It is the man who is enslaved to his passions. The wretch of Romans 7 KNOWS that the law is good and thus has his mind set on it but because he is enslaved to his flesh (bondage of sin), enslaved to his base desires he is subject to the law of sin which brings forth death.

This wretched man needs to be REGENERATED so that he can WALK IN THE SPIRIT whereby he RULES OVER the BEAST MAN. The Beast Man is PUT TO DEATH in Christ.

That is why in Rom 8:2 is says the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Jesus Christ has set him free from the law of sin and death. We WALK in the Spirit and were energised by the power of God that we may mortify the deeds of the body.

continued....

 

[Skinski7]

...continued

Look at this passage...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The OPERATION OF GOD is His manifest power in us. When a sinner is broken in godly sorrow and forsakes the pig pen and submits to God then God RAISES THEM UP IN POWER. A Christian IS NOT the wretch of Romans 7.

I would encourage you to read, reflect and pray on Romans 6,7,8 in private for an extended period of time so that God shows you what Paul is teaching here. Paul is teaching how victory over sin is attained through Christ, he is not teaching a judicial cloak for ongoing bondage. Satan has twisted it into the latter but the text means what it says, not what people twist it into.

Why didn't the Jews teach Original Sin either? The Jews taught Yetzer Tov and Tetzer Ra which is the "evil desire" and the "moral conscience." The Jews taught that sin is wrought when one suppresses their moral conscience in order to fulfill the evil desire. They did not blame the flesh for sin, that is gnosticism.What incongruous double speak! Honestly, you should step back and analyze what you are saying.No christian blames the flesh or the world or the devil for their sin! Well explain the Westminster Confession then...

Chapter VI

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

The Westminster Confession CLEARLY puts the blame of ACTUAL TRANSGRESSION on the sin of Adam.

"No Christian blames the flesh, or the world, or the devil for their sin" ??? Is that so? Then why do so professing Christian's still yield to their flesh and disobey God? They blame the SIN NATURE.

I have had MANY pastors plainly tell me that the reason people sin is because they cannot help it due to the flesh. A pastor I spoke with today told me exactly that actually.

Modern Christianity is pretty well established on a Gnostic foundation. Satan has been able to deceive miillions of people and those who buy into the deception end up so blind that it is almost impossible to pull them out of the fire. That is why it is essential that we DIG DEEP and be VERY ASTUTE in the manner we hear things, which is exactly what Jesus compelled us all to do.You don't even know what the term means, gnostism means 'hidden knowledge', it was a sect that claimed certain privaledged few knew hidden secrets about Jesus and the way to salvation. Man, you are so in error. Yes Gnosticism teaches so called "hidden knowledge" but so what? One of the teachings that the Gnostics sects held to (including the Manichaean's of which Augustine was one for NINE YEARS) was that the soul (spirit) was imprisoned in matter. Thus the soul was trapped in the flesh and it was the flesh nature which suppressed the true state of the soul. They taught that the soul could be made pure VIA KNOWLEDGE and they taught that the actual condition of the soul was not reflected by deeds.

The Gnostics separated the deeds done in the body from the state of the soul. Modern Christianity DOES EXACTLY THE SAME THING and thus denies this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Thus under Gnostisicm and Modern Christianity a good tree does not have to bear good fruit. It can bear bad fruit because salvation is JUDICIAL in application, not actual. BIG DIFFERENCE.



The unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and any gospel which twists things so as to allow a continuation of rebellion whilst teaching that one is saved is error.

You say...

No, you completely misunderstand. The flesh without God is nothing but the flesh is not without God. Every single human being as been given a measure of light through their conscience and the Spirit of God is in the world convicting it of sin, righteousness and judgement. Man is perfectly capable of forsaking their rebellion and choosing to yield to God but it only happens through repentance and faith, God IS NOT absent from the process. God is the FIRST CAUSE but men MUST RESPOND.Here again, you trip over yourself logically, you say God is the first cause but you exclude the very faith that He caused as being under His egis. Let me refresh your memory :"For by grace are you saved through faith,and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Eph 2:8-9 is a true scripture but it has been twisted beyond recognition today.

Not of works lest any man should boast? What were the works that people boasted of?

om 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You have just ripped Eph 2:8-9 completely out of context and used it to refute my contention that men have to DO SOMETHING.

The works that people would boast of were the DEEDS OF THE LAW. The deeds of the law could only ever CLEAN THE OUTSIDE OF THE CUP. That is why none can be justified by the law because righteousness is by a faith that works by love.

A faith working by love establishes the law in the heart. God looks at the heart, God looks at the motive. God imputes those with an obedient heart towards God who are doing the right thing by faith as righteous.

When Paul says that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith he is teaching that we are saved by YIELDING to the Grace of God, ie. God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure to which we WORK OUT with fear and trembling. Faith purifies the heart and obedience to the truth by the spirit purify us. Salvation = Being Made Pure.


I know it is the opposite of what they teach in the churches. Like I said dig deep and be careful how you hear things for there are many wolves in the clothing of a sheep.


Noah was saved by grace THROUGH faith because he YIELDED TO GOD AND BUILT THE ARK. Noah had to be a DOER OF THE WORD AND NOT A HEARER ONLY.


Faith is the active dynamic of truly trusting and believing God and therefore DOING what He tells you to do. Nothing more and nothing less. Read Hebrews 11 which clearly teaches that faith is ACTIVE.


Faith without action is dead.


Sin when yielded to produces bondage because of how the body is designed. Patterns of conduct become physically cemented into the brain. Studies in addiction and habit prove this without contention.

God designed human beings to be addicted to Him. Self worship in the gratification of the lusts serves as a substitute. Thus men end up serving the creature instead of the creator and they become hopelessly addicted to it. They sell themselves into bondage, their consciences becomes seared and they fall under the dominion of the powers of darkness. People underestimate the spiritual realm completely and the danger they are in.Completely agree.

The way to life is only through yielding completely to God and being empowered by His Spirit through us. We cannot serve God in the flesh, the flesh must die, thus we MUST die to self and COMPLETELY YIELD to God. This is the NARROW WAY that FEW FIND and that EVEN FEWER ENTER IN.Do you not see that is a work of God? - "That faith not of yourselves" Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Thus God is the ultimate source of faith and not ourselves. Yet faith is not some abstract condept, it is obediently yielding to God from the heart. God brings it about when we diligently seek Him.

The "not of yourselves" simply means "not of anything we do APART from God." We are WORKERS TOGETHER WITH HIM (2Cor 6:1) and God is the AUTHOR of salvation of those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

Be very careful in minimising the teachings of Jesus due to the doctrines of men. Be very careful of that.
I will, You be careful to. Thankyou, I most certainly will.

Most are going to be deceived and I do not want to be one of them and I hope you don't either. We are fully accountable to God for the choices we make.Amen.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[/quote]


Thankyou for responding to me.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

This is how I see it, we were born in sin,which means by nature we sin,or in other words we do nothing but sin,us choosing to do right thing is sin, our righteousness stinks to him.so I do beleive in total depravity.

We were not born from sin; sin has just been apart of our nature, not just our nature. If we are completely infested with sin, then there is no way for us to come to repentance, and thus no point in earth, Jesus Christ, or even believing in God.

Our righteousness stinks to him?

Luke 15:7

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

In order to repent of sin, one must recognize their sin and seek what is right. In seeking what is right, one comes to seek what is right by God because only God can forgive sins. To fully repent, one must work to rid themselves of sin, and thus be deemed righteous by God.

How can our righteousness " stink " to God when the bible testifies that there is much rejoicing for those who come into righteousness?

The goal here is to repent of sin and fully come to God with heart and mind; this in turn causes us to become righteous before us. Even Abraham was called righteous before God, and God blessed and was PLEASED with Abraham.

~

As far as the post about the Serpent " unlocking " Adam and Eve's Free choice, but then them becoming trapped by that choice;

You forget that they already had a choice before the serpent;

God said " Do not eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."

That's a direct command; God is good, so this is the " good " sinless choice.

Then the Serpent comes and says, " Surely you will not die," and twist it around to make it seem like God is hiding something from them.

This is the deifying " bad " sinful choice.

So here is Adam and Eve; They either obey God and remain sinless, or they obey the snake and commit a sin.

I want to point out here that the fact that Adam and Eve even had the mind to choice sin over obedience, clearly demonstrates freedom of choice. They knew well of God so to betray him anyway and listen to the snake was a free choice. Eve even told the snake that God said not to eat of the tree - she was well aware of the choice being presented to her, as was Adam.

Even looking at people today; there are aspects in us that are good, and aspects in us that are evil; these two natures dwell within us, and the soul is wavered this way or that way.

Hopefully it is the good way.

~

On a side note, the tree was named " The Knowledge of Good and Evil;" people say that this was unfair to Adam and Eve because they had no previous knowledge of what was evil. But then, this also implies that they had no knowledge of what was good either. The trial on earth seems to be just that, learning what is good, and what is evil.

However, the freedom of choice when it boils down to God, was always there from the very beginning; to obey God or to not obey? Do we listen to God, or listen to this smooth talking serpent?

 

[Skinski7]

how long have you been pure skinski?

what was the day, hour and minute on the clock?

surely you'll remember being glorified?

do your friends have to cover your face with a cloth?

Why is heart purity such an anathema to you?

The Bible clearly teaches it yet you mock it.

 

[Skinski7]

This is how I see it, we were born in sin,which means by nature we sin,or in other words we do nothing but sin,us choosing to do right thing is sin, our righteousness stinks to him.so I do beleive in total depravity.

Choosing to do the right thing is sin?

You do nothing but sin?

Even the best you can do is as a filthy rag before God huh?

Then why on earth would the Bible say something like this...

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Are not you claiming that Abel's sacrifice was a sin and a filthy rag before God????? Explain that please.

Amen to that.

We humans are monsters of iniquity. It is a tremendous mercy on God's behalf, that the bible didn't end at Genesis 3.

Are you still a monster of iniquity?

 

[zone]

Why is heart purity such an anathema to you?

The Bible clearly teaches it yet you mock it.

it isn't.
your definition of it is.
and you claiming it when you don't have it is anathema.

check 1 John again.

 

[Ariel82]

Funny Abiding,.......(I like your style).

I like his cookies and coffee more

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Choosing to do the right thing is sin?

You do nothing but sin?

Even the best you can do is as a filthy rag before God huh?

Then why on earth would the Bible say something like this...

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Are not you claiming that Abel's sacrifice was a sin and a filthy rag before God????? Explain that please.





Are you still a monster of iniquity?

THANK YOU!

Excellent example.

What's weird is that absolute depravity in this respects is an argument that nullifies itself, because if it were to be true, God would have never created us to have a mind to sin because in that aspect, it automatically granted us a choice to do what is right and what is wrong.

Or

Depravity, we would have all come to die - the second death as the bible calls it which is destruction of our souls.

No and's if's or but's - total anihillation.

Depravity is like the #1 Atheist argument I've encountered as to God being unfair and tyrannical - so I was very shocked to see this even questioned on a Christian website lol.

 

[zone]

The trial on earth seems to be just that, learning what is good, and what is evil.

However, the freedom of choice when it boils down to God, was always there from the very beginning; to obey God or to not obey? Do we listen to God, or listen to this smooth talking serpent?

better be careful with the whole THIS IS A TEST thing.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone

 

[Skinski7]

it isn't.
your definition of it is.
and you claiming it when you don't have it is anathema.

check 1 John again.

You do mock it and now you appeal to 1 John. I am sure you are referring to...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Appealing to this passage as a proof text for ongoing sin is error because in the verses before John writes this...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Thus the context of 1Joh 1:8-10 is HOW TO WALK IN THE LIGHT. One cannot approach God and walk in the light if they do not confess that they have sin to their account. It does not mean one is still WALKING IN SIN and WALKING IN THE LIGHT at the same time. That is impossible.

A Christian is to walk in purity yielding to God from the heart. Sure they may err in many things and fall short but not in the context of willful rebellion.

John teaches this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If John is teaching in 1Joh 1:8-10 that Christians will always be sinning then he is contradicting himself when he teaches that those who are born of God are made MANIFEST by their conduct.

A good tree bears good fruit and an evil tree bears evil fruit.

Thus those who are Christ's are led by the Spirit and thus manifest the fruit of righteousness because they are in a submissive state to the leading of God.

John warns in verse 3:7 to not be deceived into thinking that evil fruit can be born of a good tree.

An overarching premise in the First Epistle of John is that the deeds must match the profession. If the deeds do not match then the profession is a lie.

Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us and make us zealous of good works. Thus the fruit of this is MANIFEST righteous conduct.

I know that contradicts with the heretical judicial salvation of Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ doctrines. Best to reject the lies now than be confronted with them at the judgment.

 

[mark54]

Choosing to do the right thing is sin?

You do nothing but sin?

Even the best you can do is as a filthy rag before God huh?

Then why on earth would the Bible say something like this...

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Are not you claiming that Abel's sacrifice was a sin and a filthy rag before God????? Explain that please.





Are you still a monster of iniquity?

Skinski

The problem is not so much with a lot of your pure doctrine according to scripture, it is the ideal, but it does not allow for the humanity of man, or for the working out practically of Grace in the Christians life.
I bet to you, as soon as a person becomes a Christian they can immediately cease all sin. I am afraid you can only see the literal letter, and not all of that:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal 2:16&17

Paul is not saying there by any stretch of the imagination a person puts the flesh to death and lives a sinless life upon conversion. I am afraid if that is what you believe you cannot see beyond some of the literal letter.

A person becomes a Christian, much sin they can immediately cease, but what of the sin that wraps itself so tightly around them? Deeply ingrained sin they have been afflicted by for many years? Do you preach that all of this immediately vanishes?

So to Paul, once someone starts out on their Christian walk it is plain they are a sinner. Why does he ask. 'Does Christ promote sin?

Because to Paul you are saved by grace through faith, and you are saved despite your imperfections, and what may well be glaring sin that needs to urgently be dealt with as you begin your Christian walk. Now if you saw someone rejoicing in their Christianity, despite glaring sin in their life, what will you think(if you are honest)
That person is promoting Sin. They are rejoicing in their salvation while blatantly committing what to you is unacceptable sin. But the new convert is weak:
While we were yet without strength Christ sdied for the ungodly
Rom5:6

But you would expect the new convert to immediately cease all sin wouldn't you? Be honest!

Paul proves the point in the next verse
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
In other words, if the new convert believes the sin has to be dealt with in order for them to be a Christian(has to be according to law) they will fail and simply prove they are a lawbreaker
That is the spiritual reality.

And if a person does take the view that the sin has to be dealt with for them to be acceptable to God be a Christian, they are under law, for the law can condemn them

Spurgeon wrote that he had seen prostitutes change, their hearts become pure as the driven snow, alcoholics too. But he did not preach instant perrfection, but victory through faith in Christ. He also said we all have sins to mourn over the whole of our lives, but some sins, if not dealt with would be fatal.

You see, you cannot just read the literal letter, you have to understand the heart of what it contains, and allow for the outworkings of the Gospel of Grace, and the higher points of the law
For you are not perfect, of that I am positive

On another website, an American woman said that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches.
If you properly understood Rom7:7-11 you would know why that is.

Satan has but one battering ram to hurt the genuine convert, the law, in other words make them give up, believing they are not good enough for God, that is his only weapon when you think about it.
I am afraid that what you preach will simply bring many a sincere person to in effect be under law.

Yes, for sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but underGrace.
But there is a huge difference between sin not being a persons master, and them living a life of sinless perfection.

Jesus said
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has annointed me to preach the good news to the poor
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
And recovery of sight to the blind
To release the oppressed
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord
Luke4-16-18

I'm sorry, but much of what byou preach, will crush people, and oppress them, it does not allow for the outworking of the Gospel, nor does it allow for the higher points of the law

 

[jimmydiggs]

This is the way I take it also.

I just believe even as scum, we have the ability to call out to God for help of our own free will.. If we listen to the schoolmaster, which leads us to Christ

We must not be that scummy then.

 

[Skinski7]

THANK YOU!

Excellent example.

What's weird is that absolute depravity in this respects is an argument that nullifies itself, because if it were to be true, God would have never created us to have a mind to sin because in that aspect, it automatically granted us a choice to do what is right and what is wrong.

Or

Depravity, we would have all come to die - the second death as the bible calls it which is destruction of our souls.

No and's if's or but's - total anihillation.

Depravity is like the #1 Atheist argument I've encountered as to God being unfair and tyrannical - so I was very shocked to see this even questioned on a Christian website lol.

I have encountered that too. Total Depravity totally maligns the character of God. Combine that with the "judicial justification apart from manifest righeousness through a faith that works by love" and you have a Christianity where the saved are no different to the lost except one thinks they are forgiven.

No wonder the church system is full of sin and hypocrisy today. It is tragic beyond belief.

 

[zone]

I have encountered that too. Total Depravity totally maligns the character of God.

how depraved is a man who claims he knows the Lord, is saved, is clean and righteous yet is engulfed in porn and who-knows-what-else?

how depraved is that?

WHITE-WASHED TOMB Jesus calls them....outside they look real good skinski. just like you in 1995, 96, 97....and onwards.

how come i don't hear any CONFESSION of that coming from you, Mr. Purity?

Combine that with the "judicial justification apart from manifest righeousness through a faith that works by love"

every regenerated christian will turn from their sin, continue turning from sin, confess their sin and be cleansed, and walk in the good works God ordained they would walk in.

every single one.

by your continuing accusations, it is YOU who maligns God.

vomiting on his pastors and church. depraved.

and you have a Christianity where the saved are no different to the lost except one thinks they are forgiven.

are you forgiven skinski?

how did you do it?

by your own righteousness?: yes, since you openly deny the Righteousness of GOD APART from the Law, the righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to the sinner...you don't know what that means.....it's not FORGIVENESS OF SINS...that just wipes the slate clean from SIN. it does NOT make you perfectly righteous.

in your Finneyite/gnostic heretical system it is "the Righteousness of Skinski obeying the Law, the righteousness of Skinski"

No wonder the church system is full of sin and hypocrisy today. It is tragic beyond belief.

no, there are guys who love their porn who choose Promise Keepers who make the "church" full of sin and hypocrisy - that would be YOU.

meanwhile there are Christians doing what they have always been doing: LIVING GOOD LIVES ACCORDING THE WORKING OF CHRIST IN THEIR LIVES.

and you don't learn at all.

if you think you're going to get away with all this heresy you're teaching and on that Day point out the fact you [claim] you quit porn you've got a great shock coming.

 

[schoolofyoungprophet]

We were not born from sin; sin has just been apart of our nature, not just our nature. If we are completely infested with sin, then there is no way for us to come to repentance, and thus no point in earth, Jesus Christ, or even believing in God.

Our righteousness stinks to him?

Luke 15:7

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

In order to repent of sin, one must recognize their sin and seek what is right. In seeking what is right, one comes to seek what is right by God because only God can forgive sins. To fully repent, one must work to rid themselves of sin, and thus be deemed righteous by God.

How can our righteousness " stink " to God when the bible testifies that there is much rejoicing for those who come into righteousness?

The goal here is to repent of sin and fully come to God with heart and mind; this in turn causes us to become righteous before us. Even Abraham was called righteous before God, and God blessed and was PLEASED with Abraham.

~

As far as the post about the Serpent " unlocking " Adam and Eve's Free choice, but then them becoming trapped by that choice;

You forget that they already had a choice before the serpent;

God said " Do not eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."

That's a direct command; God is good, so this is the " good " sinless choice.

Then the Serpent comes and says, " Surely you will not die," and twist it around to make it seem like God is hiding something from them.

This is the deifying " bad " sinful choice.

So here is Adam and Eve; They either obey God and remain sinless, or they obey the snake and commit a sin.

I want to point out here that the fact that Adam and Eve even had the mind to choice sin over obedience, clearly demonstrates freedom of choice. They knew well of God so to betray him anyway and listen to the snake was a free choice. Eve even told the snake that God said not to eat of the tree - she was well aware of the choice being presented to her, as was Adam.

Even looking at people today; there are aspects in us that are good, and aspects in us that are evil; these two natures dwell within us, and the soul is wavered this way or that way.

Hopefully it is the good way.

~

On a side note, the tree was named " The Knowledge of Good and Evil;" people say that this was unfair to Adam and Eve because they had no previous knowledge of what was evil. But then, this also implies that they had no knowledge of what was good either. The trial on earth seems to be just that, learning what is good, and what is evil.

However, the freedom of choice when it boils down to God, was always there from the very beginning; to obey God or to not obey? Do we listen to God, or listen to this smooth talking serpent?

My earlier post was about our fallen state,I wasn't talking about a regenerated person.
I like how leonard ravenhill once said Christ didn't come to make bad man good but to make deadman live.
The very reasion Christ died was to save sinners from their sins.
We have to remember when we beleive in him,his righteousness becomes ours and only through that righteousness we can stand bold before him.any other form of righteousness that is not of Christ is surly a filthy rags before God.
Abraham was considered righteous as because it was by faith