Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul said that those that are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost, even if they are zealous for God. They are lost because they still go about to establish their own righteousness and refuses to submit to the righteousness of God.

Thats because it is still about them. They have yet to repent. Thats why they cut down people who they think are not working as hard as they are to be righteous (as if they could work at it) Why they slam on us who put it all in Gods hands. And why they fear losing a gift that God gave them (even if they say they do not fear it, Just believing one can lose salvation would cause great fear, thus if they deny they have fear, they are just fooling themselves)

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

 

[tribesman]

Thats because it is still about them. They have yet to repent. Thats why they cut down people who they think are not working as hard as they are to be righteous (as if they could work at it) Why they slam on us who put it all in Gods hands. And why they fear losing a gift that God gave them (even if they say they do not fear it, Just believing one can lose salvation would cause great fear, thus if they deny they have fear, they are just fooling themselves)

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Exactly. They have not yet repented from their self righteousness and vain attempts to become justified through the law. And yet they do not submit to what the law demands nor do they understand what the law says about sin. They are in constant fear of judgment and of not repenting much enough and also in constant risk of boasting when they conjure up in their darkened minds that they are "repentant".

It is all about pride, all about self, all about men and comparing themselves to other men, all about not submitting to the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel. This shallow moralism is really an abomination that makes desolate. It eats away peace, joy and trust in Christ alone. Where ever it reaches its poisonous claws hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresies abound. For the sake of the weak and young christians we must ever warn against this subtle snake where ever it raises its ugly head. Not fun at all, but necessary.

 

[rauleetoe]

If you truly believe it is God's work in you, why did you use the word "I" instead of "God" in the bolded sentence ? If it is God willing you to be holy, why did you say that "it does not mean that "I" must resort to the same fate" ? Is every christian but you (and your ilk ... the holiness crowd) unwilling to be led of God ? Whether you realize it or not (and you clearly don't), the closer one is to God, the more wretched they see their condition. Interestingly enough, you see the very opposite. Be sure to let us know when you have attained perfection in this flesh. Otherwise, everything you have said and will continue to say is utterly meaningless. As you said yourself, God is not mocked.

I never said I am holy..Apart from God..This is where you lie..show me where I ever once mentioned that I did anything apart from God..
If you are closer to God, then you learn that your new identity is in Christ..and you are no longer to be labeling yourself a sinner..you ever read 1 john 3? You are not to practice sin..thats the old way..the old man..the new creation means all things are new..all things. What part of this do you not understand?
Thats not bragging..you can change put words out there that i did did not say all day. I NEVER SAID I WAS RIGHT IN MY OWN STANDING.
You will not find it..you lie if you imply this.

 

[rauleetoe]

Exactly. They have not yet repented from their self righteousness and vain attempts to become justified through the law. And yet they do not submit to what the law demands nor do they understand what the law says about sin. They are in constant fear of judgment and of not repenting much enough and also in constant risk of boasting when they conjure up in their darkened minds that they are "repentant".

It is all about pride, all about self, all about men and comparing themselves to other men, all about not submitting to the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel. This shallow moralism is really an abomination that makes desolate. It eats away peace, joy and trust in Christ alone. Where ever it reaches its poisonous claws hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresies abound. For the sake of the weak and young christians we must ever warn against this subtle snake where ever it raises its ugly head. Not fun at all, but necessary.

Huh...
There goes the accusing tone here...we all know where that is from..not of God..the devil.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly. They have not yet repented from their self righteousness and vain attempts to become justified through the law. And yet they do not submit to what the law demands nor do they understand what the law says about sin. They are in constant fear of judgment and of not repenting much enough and also in constant risk of boasting when they conjure up in their darkened minds that they are "repentant".

It is all about pride, all about self, all about men and comparing themselves to other men, all about not submitting to the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel. This shallow moralism is really an abomination that makes desolate. It eats away peace, joy and trust in Christ alone. Where ever it reaches its poisonous claws hypocrisy, blasphemy and heresies abound. For the sake of the weak and young christians we must ever warn against this subtle snake where ever it raises its ugly head. Not fun at all, but necessary.

And what is worse is they say we are the ones who deny one can be holy. We are the ones who deny one can learn to live a life in Christ apart from sin. We are the ones teaching free grace. (last I read, grace was free) And as you will soon see. They will yell at us for accusing them, Yell at us for being false witnesses against them. And show their true hypocrisy (it is ok for me to judge, but how dare you judge me) etc etc etc!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Huh...
There goes the accusing tone here...we all know where that is from..not of God..the devil.

"in the voice of Raleetoe"
yeah! Lets not forget. it is ok for me to accuse you, But how dare you accuse me.

 

[rauleetoe]

i didn't think you wanted the truth.
your choice.



define 'christian perfection'.



why are you adding to what He said...

Ephesians 1:14
New International Version (©1984)
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

International Standard Version (©2012)
who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession for his praise and glory.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Who is the pledge of our inheritance for the redemption of those who are living and for the glory of his honor.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive our inheritance. We have this guarantee until we are set free to belong to him. God receives praise and glory for this.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

American King James Version
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory.

American Standard Version
which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

Darby Bible Translation
who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory.

English Revised Version
which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Webster's Bible Translation
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory.

Weymouth New Testament
that Spirit being a pledge and foretaste of our inheritance, in anticipation of its full redemption--the inheritance which He has purchased to be specially His for the extolling of His glory.

World English Bible
who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Young's Literal Translation
which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.



walk with God is a Methodist favorite.
walking in the Spirit, etc etc.

Romans 8 two-tiered christianity.

bad doctrine. go back and read it. there is only one christian.
walking means the life lived. real simple.



uh...thanks.
likewise.



theres the walking in the Spirit ism again.

as for mocking God or fooling you or anyone else, so far between the few of us having this conversation i appear to be the only one admitting sin.

those who say they have no sin are liars.
utterly deluded with no truth at all in them.

no matter how they try to get around it - thats the first sign of a wicked sinner - anyone claiming they have none.
pure delusion.



theres that walk again.
do you know we are still living lives here on earth in SARX bodies.
do you know why Jesus is High Priest.

did Paul say he had attained perfection as you are using the term.
are you holier than Paul.

are you holier than my pastor.
his pastor.

Charles Spurgeon.

John Wesley.

anyone....who are you holier than.

did you skip over the part where is said i left it all behind - walked away from the sinful life i led.
but i never pretend i fulfill the Law.

i am saved by Grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST....not zone.
JESUS.



where do we deviate.
you talk alot about your holiness and fruit and i do not.

theres a difference, i admit.

Whatever claim you write about Wesley I will refuse to accept on the mere notion that you blatantly admit you are anti Wesley..so all what you say regarding him must be taken with a grain of salt..what i have read of him never said he did not believe what he said..He started his 'mission' as a 'sinner' or non christian as you could say..but the moravian's peace and grace filled life impacted Wesley..remember him saying he felt 'strangley warmed'..

------------------------------------------------------
I do not talk about Holiness as if it is not attainable to you Zone..or anyone here..i talk of it because its God's will for all christians who profess. I never said it to say that you cannot have this..Its all God, and not man derived..and should be desired by all Christians. Fruit of the spirit is necessary..a good tree that is healthy and worth keeping will have fruit. I know you and I can agree on this part at least..right?
1 john 3 says that the believer no longer practices sin..this sin practice is not to be a part of any believer..of who we are or how we do things anymore. Do you not agree?

Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness no one will see God..Do you want to see God? I do..
so this is not bragging..i never said I was better than anyone here, sorry you took it that way. But never did i say i was 'holy' I said i believe its attainable..and like the Arminians of past..they all pointed to God..Arminius..Wesley..H Orton Wiley..etc..they all professed that all good comes only from God..we merely cease to resist.

 

[tribesman]

And what is worse is they say we are the ones who deny one can be holy. We are the ones who deny one can learn to live a life in Christ apart from sin. We are the ones teaching free grace. (last I read, grace was free) And as you will soon see. They will yell at us for accusing them, Yell at us for being false witnesses against them. And show their true hypocrisy (it is ok for me to judge, but how dare you judge me) etc etc etc!!

Yes. This is huge hypocrisy, which is a sin btw. So much for that "christian perfection". Sickening, bro.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. This is huge hypocrisy, which is a sin btw. So much for that "christian perfection". Sickening, bro.

Yes it is, Because it all comes from SELF. God said if we want to know him and his way, it is about everyone BUT YOU. We love, because God first loved us!

 

[Skinski7]

Paul said that those that are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost, even if they are zealous for God. They are lost because they still go about to establish their own righteousness and refuses to submit to the righteousness of God.

How is "submitting" to the righteousness of God establishing "one's own righteousness."?

If "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6) and "love fulfills the law" (Gal 5:14) and if this "faith upholds the law in the heart" (Rom 3:31) and if "we fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4), how exactly is doing all that "establishing one's own righteousness"?

I really don't see this "transfer" of the righteousness of Jesus to your account anywhere in the Bible.

Why is preaching obedience to God equivalent, in your mind, to preaching "self righteousness"?

I am really trying to grasp that.

John did teach that righteousness is something that is "done" ie. an action, which logically must be represented by the outward conduct of an individual (1Joh 3:7). John did also teach that those who are born of God will MANIFEST right conduct when he said this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice he puts "not doing righteousness" in the same box as "not loving."

So please explain your thoughts on this please. Explain those scriptures and what they mean to you.

Thank you.

 

[rauleetoe]

Yes. This is huge hypocrisy, which is a sin btw. So much for that "christian perfection". Sickening, bro.

Be ye Holy for I am holy..it says this in 1 peter 1..
And its something that I will say one more time..because no one is reading what i actually write..that its with God this is even ever possible. and 1 thessalonians 4..read it.
Other scriptures on holiness are there..
We are not 'wretched' sinners anymore..if you are..or hold onto that identity its because you have chosen to believe a lie and appeal to grace without ever walking away from your sin..maybe its because many here want to still sin, and see how much they are able to get away with and be still considered christian(now i know why 5 point calvinism is so appealing..because its antinomian)

What is sickening..bro..is that many here will appeal to being philosophical..having a systematic theology and not believing any of it because their actions prove that they live like the devil 6 days out of the week!
That tribesman..is more sickening than anything..and its not just sickening to me..its a stench in the nostrils of a Holy and righteous God.

He has only one standard..Holiness..and he did not leave us without a way to live for him(Holy spirit given to us)

 

[rauleetoe]

How is "submitting" to the righteousness of God establishing "one's own righteousness."?

If "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6) and "love fulfills the law" (Gal 5:14) and if this "faith upholds the law in the heart" (Rom 3:31) and if "we fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4), how exactly is doing all that "establishing one's own righteousness"?

I really don't see this "transfer" of the righteousness of Jesus to your account anywhere in the Bible.

Why is preaching obedience to God equivalent, in your mind, to preaching "self righteousness"?

I am really trying to grasp that.

John did teach that righteousness is something that is "done" ie. an action, which logically must be represented by the outward conduct of an individual (1Joh 3:7). John did also teach that those who are born of God will MANIFEST right conduct when he said this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice he puts "not doing righteousness" in the same box as "not loving."

So please explain your thoughts on this please. Explain those scriptures and what they mean to you.

Thank you.

Good luck with that..he is a calvinist..after all.
They appeal to cheap grace..99 percent of them do at least..i know..i was best friends with one for 17 years.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How is "submitting" to the righteousness of God establishing "one's own righteousness."?

If "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6) and "love fulfills the law" (Gal 5:14) and if this "faith upholds the law in the heart" (Rom 3:31) and if "we fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4), how exactly is doing all that "establishing one's own righteousness"?

I really don't see this "transfer" of the righteousness of Jesus to your account anywhere in the Bible.

Why is preaching obedience to God equivalent, in your mind, to preaching "self righteousness"?

I am really trying to grasp that.

John did teach that righteousness is something that is "done" ie. an action, which logically must be represented by the outward conduct of an individual (1Joh 3:7). John did also teach that those who are born of God will MANIFEST right conduct when he said this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice he puts "not doing righteousness" in the same box as "not loving."

So please explain your thoughts on this please. Explain those scriptures and what they mean to you.

Thank you.

1. If we are doing it to earn salvation. An dnot because we HAVE it. then we are establishing ones own righteousness.
2. If we say that we have "made it" or that we have reached this state, and everyone needs to get their like we do. We are preaching self righteousness.
3. If we are teaching that John, in 1 John 3:9 is saying anyone born of God can not sin period. And not that he is saying we can not habitually practice sin (like the world does) then we are teaching self righteousness.

why? Because we do not see the sin in our own lives which are just as serious of the sin that the so called "sinner" commits. Thus we are looking our our ability to stop the sins we deem as Horrible and evil, When we are blinded to the fact we continue to sin, and we can;t even see it. Thus where is the glory given? to God? no to YOU! Why? your proud you stop certain sins, but are blind to the sins you do commit, thus your excusing your own personal sin, and condemning others who have not yet found victory over theirs.

As was said earlier, if you walk to the light, you see the darkness in your soul. if you can;t see the darkness, you are not walking toward the light. Thats why your still blind to your own darkness.

 

[Skinski7]

Yes. This is huge hypocrisy, which is a sin btw. So much for that "christian perfection". Sickening, bro.

You bring up "perfection."

Jesus said this...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect - G5046 - teleios
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Paul also said this...

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We see in verse 9 Paul clearly teaches that righteousness is by faith and not of the law which is in full agreement with Gal 5:4-6 and Rom 3:28.

In verse 10 Paul brings this faith into the context of knowing Jesus and the power of His resurrection and also mentions being a partaker of his sufferings. Very similar to the "suffering in the flesh" which Peter talks about in 1Pet 4:1 that results in the cessation of sin (in the context of sin resulting from walking according to the lusts of men, ie. Jam 1:14-15).

In verse 11 Paul talks about wanting to attain unto the resurrection of the dead and in verse 12 clearly states he has not attained this yet and is thus not perfect. He is seeking this perfection. The word for perfect in this verse is...

Perfect - G5048 - teleioō
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

That is a different word to the one Jesus used. The one Jesus used referred to "moral perfection."

So Paul continues on talking about the prize which is yet to be attained and how he presses on to it in his walk then in verse 15 he makes this statement, "as many as be perfect" and he uses the same word Jesus used which means "moral perfection."

Yet you say "so much for that Christian perfection, sickening."

So would you please explain what Paul is talking about here if he is not talking about the moral perfection of a Christian?

Do you believe that this "moral perfection" is the "perfection of Jesus credited to your account"?

If that is what you believe then can you clearly show in the Scripture where this is taught?



One other question.

If the "righteousness of Jesus is credited to your account by faith" WHILE "you are still a filthy sinner" then HOW EXACTLY DOES FAITH ESTABLISH THE LAW?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Thank you.

 

[rauleetoe]

You bring up "perfection."

Jesus said this...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect - G5046 - teleios
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Paul also said this...

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We see in verse 9 Paul clearly teaches that righteousness is by faith and not of the law which is in full agreement with Gal 5:4-6 and Rom 3:28.

In verse 10 Paul brings this faith into the context of knowing Jesus and the power of His resurrection and also mentions being a partaker of his sufferings. Very similar to the "suffering in the flesh" which Peter talks about in 1Pet 4:1 that results in the cessation of sin (in the context of sin resulting from walking according to the lusts of men, ie. Jam 1:14-15).

In verse 11 Paul talks about wanting to attain unto the resurrection of the dead and in verse 12 clearly states he has not attained this yet and is thus not perfect. He is seeking this perfection. The word for perfect in this verse is...

Perfect - G5048 - teleioō
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

That is a different word to the one Jesus used. The one Jesus used referred to "moral perfection."

So Paul continues on talking about the prize which is yet to be attained and how he presses on to it in his walk then in verse 15 he makes this statement, "as many as be perfect" and he uses the same word Jesus used which means "moral perfection."

Yet you say "so much for that Christian perfection, sickening."

So would you please explain what Paul is talking about here if he is not talking about the moral perfection of a Christian?

Do you believe that this "moral perfection" is the "perfection of Jesus credited to your account"?

If that is what you believe then can you clearly show in the Scripture where this is taught?



One other question.

If the "righteousness of Jesus is credited to your account by faith" WHILE "you are still a filthy sinner" then HOW EXACTLY DOES FAITH ESTABLISH THE LAW?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Thank you.

His God and Lord and master is John Calvin..Not Jesus Christ..the JC these folks love is not my Lord and savior..they worship the teachings of a sinfull murderous man...John Calvin..

 

[tribesman]

How is "submitting" to the righteousness of God establishing "one's own righteousness."?

If "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6) and "love fulfills the law" (Gal 5:14) and if this "faith upholds the law in the heart" (Rom 3:31) and if "we fulfill the law by walking after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4), how exactly is doing all that "establishing one's own righteousness"?

I really don't see this "transfer" of the righteousness of Jesus to your account anywhere in the Bible.

Why is preaching obedience to God equivalent, in your mind, to preaching "self righteousness"?

I am really trying to grasp that.

John did teach that righteousness is something that is "done" ie. an action, which logically must be represented by the outward conduct of an individual (1Joh 3:7). John did also teach that those who are born of God will MANIFEST right conduct when he said this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice he puts "not doing righteousness" in the same box as "not loving."

So please explain your thoughts on this please. Explain those scriptures and what they mean to you.

Thank you.

Imputation and righteousness are highly essential elements of the gospel. Righteousness is perfect obedience to the law of God. Imputation is to reckon to the account of another. Double imputation is implied in the gospel:

The sins of the elect were imputed to Christ, so Christ became guilty in His person for the sins of His people and was justly punished for those sins, though He was perfectly sinless (2Cor. 5:21, Isa.53:4-6, 1 Pet.2:24).

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to His people, thereby His people was made righteous in the person of their substitute and are therefore acceptable before God, even though they are not perfectly sinless (2Cor. 5:21, Rom. 5:19).

If one does not believe in salvation by this imputed righteousness, then one obviously believes in salvation by a righteousness of his own. It has to be one of them two and not both at the same time. They can never mix.

Hence in Rom.10:3, God states that those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost since they are yet going about to establish their own righteousness. What is this righteousness of God that is so crucially important that those who are ignorant about it are said to be lost? Rom. 1:17 says that the gospel reveals God's righteousness.

One key passage that gives more information about this subject is found in Romans 3:

Rom.3

[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The gospel reveals how God is just when He justifies the ungodly. It reveals God as a "just God and a Saviour" (Isa.45:21). Any other "gospel" that reveals God to be neither a just God nor a Savior is a false gospel. The true and living God is one who does not show love, mercy, and grace at the expense of His justice. The righteous demands of His Law must be completely satisfied for all those whom He shows love, mercy and grace. And the true Christ established such a righteousness that demands the salvation of all those whom He represented.

 

[loveme1]

2 Timothy 3

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

Matthew 5

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Let us continue being Faithful to His instruction according to the Bible the Holy Spirit guides and comforts.

If it is seen to some as wrong to do so then let it hinder you not you know your Shepherds voice.

 

[mark54]

If the "righteousness of Jesus is credited to your account by faith" WHILE "you are still a filthy sinner" then HOW EXACTLY DOES FAITH ESTABLISH THE LAW?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Thank you.

Simple really

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becoms evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Abolutely not! if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker.
Gal2:17&18

If we are seeking to be justified in Christ we are a Christian, but a sinner as Paul clearly states. But if we look to the law(our sin) and strive to defeat it to be acceptable to God, we will simply fail and prove we are lawbreakers, for the power of sin is the law(1Cor15:56)
So we look away from the flesh and fix our hearts and minds on Christ, our one and only righeousness for Heaven, and by living by faith in Him, and not the law, from which sin has its power, we far better uphold the law, for it is Christ doing in us through the Spirit what we in ourselves cannot do.
And so we are obediant by faith,(Rom1:5) and therefore the law is established by faith, but that does not mean we are perfect in the flesh

 

[Skinski7]

1. If we are doing it to earn salvation. An dnot because we HAVE it. then we are establishing ones own righteousness. This "earning" salvation was not brought up. You are connecting "preaching obedience" to "preaching earning salvation." The Bible is clear that salvation is completely by the grace of God and that there is nothing any man can do to "earn" or "merit" it in the sense that makes one "deserve it." A murderer cannot simply undo his crime by feeding the poor, he still has that black mark of murder on his record. God's forgiveness is purely by His grace, yet how does that being true negate the "conditions" which are listed all through the Bible?
2. If we say that we have "made it" or that we have reached this state, and everyone needs to get their like we do. We are preaching self righteousness. Peter clearly claimed that he had "escaped the corruption in the world through lust" (2Pet 1:4) and Paul taught that a Christian has "set free from sin" (Rom 6:7) and that the old man is put away so that we no longer "serve sin" (Rom 6:6). Therefore how was Paul NOT preaching self righteousness? Paul did teach that you are a slave to whom you obey (Rom 6:16) and Jesus did teach that those who sin are slaves to sin (Joh 8:34) and Paul did teach that one is set free from sin through obedience (Rom 6:17-18) and Jesus did teach that He sets people "free indeed" (Rom 8:36). So you really believe that any who preaches those particular scriptures and says they have been "redeemed from all iniquity" and "made pure" (Tit 2:14) ie. "having been set free indeed" is someone who is preaching "self righteousness." Please explain those particular scriptures that speak about being set free. Set free from what????
3. If we are teaching that John, in 1 John 3:9 is saying anyone born of God can not sin period. And not that he is saying we can not habitually practice sin (like the world does) then we are teaching self righteousness. 1Joh 3:9-10 is speaking about MANIFEST CONDUCT. 1Joh 3:7-8 specifically speak about conduct as well in saying that those who DO righteousness are righteous and those who DO sin are of the devil. You appear to be saying that a Christian DOES BOTH so long as he does not DO SIN too much. Where do you draw the line? What exactly does "depart from iniquity" mean in Timothy?

Also when Jesus said this...

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

What exactly did He mean by a "single eye" if not an eye FULLY focused on God as opposed to being focused on worldly things, hence Jesus teaching that one cannot serve two masters.

How are you not teaching that "a Christian DOES serve two masters, he just doesn't serve the sin master habitually." Where is any allusion to that in the Bible?

why? Because we do not see the sin in our own lives which are just as serious of the sin that the so called "sinner" commits. Thus we are looking our our ability to stop the sins we deem as Horrible and evil, When we are blinded to the fact we continue to sin, and we can;t even see it. Thus where is the glory given? to God? no to YOU! Why? your proud you stop certain sins, but are blind to the sins you do commit, thus your excusing your own personal sin, and condemning others who have not yet found victory over theirs. There is no pride in stopping certain sins. I don't think the Prodigal Son was "PROUD" in leaving the pig pen or that Nineveh was "PROUD" in forsaking their wickedness. Where exactly are you getting this "PROUD NOTION" from?

A sin that one does not have knowledge of yet it clearly not a sin unto death. As soon as God reveals it the child of God corrects it. The issue I speak about is REBELLION. It is the REBELLION WHICH CEASES IN REPENTANCE.

If Christian's did not "sin" or "fall short" due to ignorance then there would be no need for the perfecting of the Saints. Surely in your mind a murderer MUST forsake his murdering BEFORE God will forgive them? It seems that this "NOTION OF PRIDE" is something you are injecting into the discussion to avoid the actual issue of rebellion.

As was said earlier, if you walk to the light, you see the darkness in your soul. if you can;t see the darkness, you are not walking toward the light. Thats why your still blind to your own darkness. So you clearly believe that a Christian has a "darkness in their soul." Jesus did say that if you eye is single then your whole body shall be full of light. You seem to believe that a Christian remains inwardly corrupt for their whole life, why is this? Please answer that point.

I think a Christian can err just like a child can err. They may do something foolish and wrong. They may neglect something, make a wrong judgement etc. Yet I do not think such actions come from a "dark soul." You don't believe heart purity is possible in this life? Tit 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came to purify a people zealous of good works who have been redeemed from ALL iniquity. Yet you are asserting that INIQUITY REMAINS IN THE SOUL ie. "darkness in the soul." Please explain that apparent contradiction.

I have work to do so I'll check back later if I have time.

 

[zone]

I NEVER SAID I WAS RIGHT IN MY OWN STANDING..

if you're not right in your own standing, wherefore do you judge another's standing which is also in Christ?
do you say to the hand i have no need of you?

worse yet, are you speaking the the Head?

are you accusing Jesus Who gave Himself for the church of not giving her right standing?

don't forget this is your default position:

I NEVER SAID I WAS RIGHT IN MY OWN STANDING..