Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[zone]

Well going by what you have said against Wesley, and seeming to not believe that we can live for God..as many who appeal only to grace and believe Holiness is something that is attained on our own(not that i ever heard someone imply this..not me..not anyone said its a do it yourself christianity) I can only say what it seems that you are implying..I am not 'keeping score' as much as you seem to be.
I can only say..do not get upset when we who believe what 1 thessalonians 4 says and 1 peter1 says and other scriptures say regarding right living that it's God's will for all Christians. And we are all to have fruit..remember what Jesus did to the fruitless fig tree? He cursed it..
This is not my trying to compile a list Zone..rather an admonishment to love that which is good..he is Holy..

what i have said against Wesley? i posted his own writing.....you don't want to believe it? that's your choice.
did you read his work yet?

do you think he practiced what he taught?
is it safe for christians to follow his Methods when he died not believing?
when he said in his own words he was leading the whole world to believe something he himself did not know?
do you believe it is Biblical that ppl receive a Second Blessing which makes them in actuality perfect?

i'm not keeping score of anything. except bad theology.

i never talk about my "works" - if i do they are worthless.

i don't claim to be without sin.

yet:

i have forsaken everyone and everything i knew.

left it all.

it's just ME.

and my church.

and my studies.

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

if you do not believe that, are you a Christian?

i believe in laying aside everything from my former life, and not taking it up again.
i believe in calling sin what it is, by name, and never validating my own sin or anyone else's.
i believe in staying in the scriptures and receiving conviction and reproof as i need it daily, as well as assurance and comfort, holding out the hope we have in the faith delivered once for all.

but i believe in a God who loved the world in such a manner of love that He gave His Only Son.
that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but will receive eternal life.
this God is a Merciful God.

and this God has Power.
i know He does, because He gave it to me when i had none.
i was DEAD.
now i am alive.

i repeat:

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

i believe and confess Jesus Christ Crucified for the Forgiveness of sins and eternal life with One True God.
and the christian life comes with everything we need to be delivered Home.

the Spirit is my guarantee.

if you don't believe that, and have that testimony in yourself, are you a christian?

you must be born again.

and the born again man will walk in the light by confessing his sins and forgetting what lies behind.
if you don't believe that God performs saving work in every regenerated believer i think you are a Two-Tiered elitist...i don't think you really are.
but that's what methodism leads to.

it's false. bad doctrine.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

why must a man be born again?
will he enter the kingdom without it?

please answer this question.....why a second birth?

what is the FIRST RESURRECTION?

why must a man be born again?

The bible testifies that we le people of this earth, were created before the earth was created; ( Ecclesiastes 12:7, note the word " return" which you can't return to a place you've never been. This is regarding our souls, our souls were with God before the earth was established.) So why are we on earth? ( Matthew 9:13) Jesus came to call the sinners, not the righteous from the earth. Romans 6:23 explains that the wages of sin is death; thus the earth is actually a death sentence, for all man on the earth have fallen into sin. " Born again," is our spirit being reborn to God, cleansed of sins, and refined to enter the kingdom of heaven. We were already born before in spirit, and thus must overcome our sinful nature ( the flesh,) in order to be re - born as those from God, which we originally were until we sinned.

will he enter the kingdom without it?

Well, in order to be reborn, one must come to repent for their sins, and receive forgiveness of them through Jesus Christ. The New Covenant is how this is done for our generation, and actually the bible details about the consequences of breaking it, hence the dramatic destruction of the " ungodly " in revelations, as these are those whom have broken this covenant.

please answer this question.....why a second birth?

The second birth is what brings us to completion; we were not perfect beings, which is why there is the parable of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The earth is that living parable as we come to realize both evil and good. It is done like this because in this recognition, one comes to a perfect sound love for God, and in return you get to inherit heaven and everlasting epic amazingness - oh and eternal life

what is the FIRST RESURRECTION?

First resurrection? We haven't been resurrected yet; Jesus says those who follow and believe will be raised up on in the " last days," so when the earth is all said and done.

 

[rauleetoe]

what i have said against Wesley? i posted his own writing.....you don't want to believe it? that's your choice.
did you read his work yet?

do you think he practiced what he taught?
is it safe for christians to follow his Methods when he died not believing?
when he said in his own words he was leading the whole world to believe something he himself did not know?
do you believe it is Biblical that ppl receive a Second Blessing which makes them in actuality perfect?

i'm not keeping score of anything. except bad theology.

i never talk about my "works" - if i do they are worthless.

i don't claim to be without sin.

yet:

i have forsaken everyone and everything i knew.

left it all.

it's just ME.

and my church.

and my studies.

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

if you do not believe that, are you a Christian?

i believe in laying aside everything from my former life, and not taking it up again.
i believe in calling sin what it is, by name, and never validating my own sin or anyone else's.
i believe in staying in the scriptures and receiving conviction and reproof as i need it daily, as well as assurance and comfort, holding out the hope with have in the faith delivered once for all.

but i believe in a God who loved the world in such a manner of love that He gave His Only Son.
that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but will receive eternal life.
this God is a Merciful God.

and this God has Power.
i know He does, because He gave it to me when i had none.
i was DEAD.
now i am alive.

i repeat:

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

i believe and confess Jesus Christ Crucified for the Forgiveness of sins and eternal life with One True God.
and the christian life comes with everything we need to be delivered Home.

the Spirit is my guarantee.

if you don't believe that, and have that testimony in yourself, are you a christian?

you must be born again.

and the born again man will walk in the light by confessing his sins and forgetting what lies behind.
if you don't believe that God performs saving work in every regenerated believer i think you are a Two-Tiered elitist...i don't think you really are.
but that's what methodism leads to.

it's false. bad doctrine.

What book of lies did you get that mess from..Yes Wesley started as a non christian..but he heard the message of the moravian and was changed..
I do not know if Wesley attained 'christian perfection' in this life..but even if lets say he did not, that does not make it unattainable. As far as the spirit is your guarantee, your walk with God by the spirit is your guarantee..
Don't talk about repentance without also including the necessary results of a true and sincere repentance..a life walked with God..aka fruit. You either have it or you do not. Seeing as you seem to be confessional and speak eloquently..i can only hope you do. But lets not be caught up in simply praying and kneeling at the cross that we stay 'kneeling' and never get up from the cross and forget to walk this christian life..we are either walking or not..God is not mocked..you can fool men..or the mods on here..or even those in church or even your pastor..but God is not mocked.

I never ever said God does not perform the work Zone..where we deviate and disagree is that i believe he brings this work it to completion..and that this completion is attainable in this life..and just because some did not 'finish well' does not mean i must resort to the same fate..after all i have God on my side, cheering me on..willing me to be Holy(By his spirit..not of my own ability..apart from him..nothing) The christian life is not just good sayings and "Go God" cheers..It is a Holy Spirit lead victory walk..from repentance, to walking from sin(repentance is walking away from sin..not towards)


So This is where we deviate..belief is not enough..it cannot be..true belief will produce...and that producing is consistent and not just head knowledge or confessional.

 

[zone]

why must a man be born again?

The bible testifies that we le people of this earth, were created before the earth was created; ( Ecclesiastes 12:7, note the word " return" which you can't return to a place you've never been. This is regarding our souls, our souls were with God before the earth was established.) So why are we on earth? ( Matthew 9:13) Jesus came to call the sinners, not the righteous from the earth. Romans 6:23 explains that the wages of sin is death; thus the earth is actually a death sentence, for all man on the earth have fallen into sin. " Born again," is our spirit being reborn to God, cleansed of sins, and refined to enter the kingdom of heaven. We were already born before in spirit, and thus must overcome our sinful nature ( the flesh,) in order to be re - born as those from God, which we originally were until we sinned.

will he enter the kingdom without it?

Well, in order to be reborn, one must come to repent for their sins, and receive forgiveness of them through Jesus Christ. The New Covenant is how this is done for our generation, and actually the bible details about the consequences of breaking it, hence the dramatic destruction of the " ungodly " in revelations, as these are those whom have broken this covenant.

please answer this question.....why a second birth?

The second birth is what brings us to completion; we were not perfect beings, which is why there is the parable of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The earth is that living parable as we come to realize both evil and good. It is done like this because in this recognition, one comes to a perfect sound love for God, and in return you get to inherit heaven and everlasting epic amazingness - oh and eternal life

what is the FIRST RESURRECTION?

First resurrection? We haven't been resurrected yet; Jesus says those who follow and believe will be raised up on in the " last days," so when the earth is all said and done.

sorry.
i reject pre-existence (reincarnation).

the first resurrection is Christ's Resurrection and all who are baptised into Christ are raised with Christ.

the new birth our part in the first resurrection.

if you're not regenerated, you're in danger of the second death.

there is only ONE resurrection of all men.

those not born again in this life will undergo the second death.

 

[weakness]

Dear rick I was just asking if you could clarify what you mean staring from "and again" and ending with "having this pseudo law" are you saying that the the "law unto themselves is a pseudo law, and will it save them? thanks weakness

So what does that say about mankind E.G.?
We can see the truth, we can know the truth, but yet somehow forget it. -
Romans 1:28 - "and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them
over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient:"
And again - "For when gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." - Romans 2:14
Who put the law into their hearts?
Was it themselves?
Having this pseudo law, will it save them?
Of course not!
For by the law is no man saved: Romans 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
It is all a work of God through Jesus Christ on our souls and consciousnesses.

 

[RickShafer]

Dear rick I was just asking if you could clarify what you mean staring from "and again" and ending with "having this pseudo law" are you saying that the the "law unto themselves is a pseudo law, and will it save them? thanks weakness

Hello,
I was just pointing out Paul said that people had an imprint(how ever imperfect), of what's right and what's wrong even after they forgot God. This wouldn't save them of course, but it shows they still had a moral conscience at least to some degree.

 

[zone]

What book of lies did you get that mess from..Yes Wesley started as a non christian..but he heard the message of the moravian and was changed..

i didn't think you wanted the truth.
your choice.

I do not know if Wesley attained 'christian perfection' in this life..but even if lets say he did not, that does not make it unattainable.

define 'christian perfection'.

As far as the spirit is your guarantee, your walk with God by the spirit is your guarantee..

why are you adding to what He said...

Ephesians 1:14
New International Version (©1984)
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

International Standard Version (©2012)
who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession for his praise and glory.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Who is the pledge of our inheritance for the redemption of those who are living and for the glory of his honor.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive our inheritance. We have this guarantee until we are set free to belong to him. God receives praise and glory for this.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

American King James Version
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory.

American Standard Version
which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

Darby Bible Translation
who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory.

English Revised Version
which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Webster's Bible Translation
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory.

Weymouth New Testament
that Spirit being a pledge and foretaste of our inheritance, in anticipation of its full redemption--the inheritance which He has purchased to be specially His for the extolling of His glory.

World English Bible
who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Young's Literal Translation
which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

As far as the spirit is your guarantee, your walk with God by the spirit is your guarantee..

walk with God is a Methodist favorite.
walking in the Spirit, etc etc.

Romans 8 two-tiered christianity.

bad doctrine. go back and read it. there is only one christian.
walking means the life lived. real simple.

Don't talk about repentance without also including the necessary results of a true and sincere repentance..a life walked with God..aka fruit. You either have it or you do not. Seeing as you seem to be confessional and speak eloquently..i can only hope you do.

uh...thanks.
likewise.

But lets not be caught up in simply praying and kneeling at the cross that we stay 'kneeling' and never get up from the cross and forget to walk this christian life..we are either walking or not..God is not mocked..you can fool men..or the mods on here..or even those in church or even your pastor..but God is not mocked..

theres the walking in the Spirit ism again.

as for mocking God or fooling you or anyone else, so far between the few of us having this conversation i appear to be the only one admitting sin.

those who say they have no sin are liars.
utterly deluded with no truth at all in them.

no matter how they try to get around it - thats the first sign of a wicked sinner - anyone claiming they have none.
pure delusion.

I never ever said God does not perform the work Zone..where we deviate and disagree is that i believe he brings this work it to completion..and that this completion is attainable in this life..and just because some did not 'finish well' does not mean i must resort to the same fate..after all i have God on my side, cheering me on..willing me to be Holy(By his spirit..not of my own ability..apart from him..nothing) The christian life is not just good sayings and "Go God" cheers..It is a Holy Spirit lead victory walk..from repentance, to walking from sin(repentance is walking away from sin..not towards)

theres that walk again.
do you know we are still living lives here on earth in SARX bodies.
do you know why Jesus is High Priest.

did Paul say he had attained perfection as you are using the term.
are you holier than Paul.

are you holier than my pastor.
his pastor.

Charles Spurgeon.

John Wesley.

anyone....who are you holier than.

did you skip over the part where is said i left it all behind - walked away from the sinful life i led.
but i never pretend i fulfill the Law.

i am saved by Grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST....not zone.
JESUS.

So This is where we deviate..belief is not enough..it cannot be..true belief will produce...and that producing is consistent and not just head knowledge or confessional.

where do we deviate.
you talk alot about your holiness and fruit and i do not.

theres a difference, i admit.

 

[weakness]

I don't think your interpretation and context of this scripture is at all correct. This I feel speaks not of an imperfect imprint or something possessed after forgetting God, or a question of a means of salvation ,or a degree of conscience or moral law.Frankly, I'm shocked at your interpretation. Rom. 2:27 And shall not circumcision ,which is by nature,if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the the law? Heb.10:15 Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us : for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, I will put my laws into there hearts and in their minds will I write them. And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Rom. 2:14 For when the gentiles,which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law,these having not the law are a law unto themselves. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts...., their conscience also bearing witness...Those of the new covenant have the law written in there hearts by God !! They are a law unto themselves... Because of the spirit of God in their hearts further more they are walking in love , and love is the fulfilling of the law.For not the hearers of the law are justified but the doers, and walking in love is the doing of the law . For all the law is fulfilled if you love God and your neighbor. Your interp is so of the wall it heretical . your saying the perfect law of love in a child of the Father is just some throwback of mans rejecting of God speaking to them Oh I hope this was just your mouth running away with you. or some pride getting the best of you I would cease this site and truly seek the Lord This is truly a bad thing you say ,and if so deceived in this ,then what else. Love you and will pray for You

.

Hello,

I was just pointing out Paul said that people had an imprint(how ever imperfect), of what's right and what's wrong even after they forgot God. This wouldn't save them of course, but it shows they still had a moral conscience at least to some degree.[/Q

UOTE]

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

sorry.
i reject pre-existence (reincarnation).

the first resurrection is Christ's Resurrection and all who are baptised into Christ are raised with Christ.

the new birth our part in the first resurrection.

if you're not regenerated, you're in danger of the second death.

there is only ONE resurrection of all men.

those not born again in this life will undergo the second death.

If you reject pre - existence, then you reject the purpose of why we even had to be on the earth and have to go through the re - birth process. All men were born with original sin; but how can that be if our lives didn't really start until we were physical born? ( Psalm 15:5)


Jesus Christ did not resurrect us into eternal life when he resurrected; that is obvious or we would be in heaven already. Again Jesus's own words were that we would be raised up " in the last days," not once we become one with the body of Jesus Christ ( baptism and receiving his flesh and blood). We will partake in eternal life, as promised by the New Covenant / Everlasting Covenant. So long as you don't break it, you are born again. ( And Lord please have mercy on those whom break it...)

Born again is through Christ and the refinement that naturally happens to your spirit as you truly become one with his body; God's body is not an unholy place, there is not lust, debauchery, greed - any of that there. Keep in mind, even if you are baptized, if you turn away from Christ and live for the world, appeasing the sinful nature, the sins baptism washed away will be counted against you.

This is why the bible says such things:

Romans 4:8

" Blesses is the man whom's sins the Lord will never count against him."

Revelations 3: 11

" I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."

There are many occasions in which the bible talks about one keeping their faith about them; just because your baptized doesn't mean it's just free for all and your guaranteed salvation just because; you have upheld the New Covenant; but the New Covenant has it's fulfillments and regulations. The laws of Christ will be written on your heart," as the bible states and you are essentially put at a new standard and expectation as being of the body of Jesus Christ. Mainly this is pretty much working to not sin intentionally, developing your faith throughly, and most of all avoiding the deceit the devil is going to constantly be throwing at you. But be wary, because once you begin to waiver in faith, or get careless and start sinning, the devil will strike at you. The devil is called the " accuser " because he is the one who is tempting everyone to sin, even God's elect, so he can accuse them; the regulation is still that the wages of sin is death, and the devil hates the offspring of God so much, that this is why he waged war against them and wants us all to come to die.

What a jerk yeah?

It is literally thrice as bad to be saved, and commit sins consciously without any effort to overcome.

As far as pre - existence;

When you die, your body separates from your soul but where does each of these go?

Ecclesiastes 12: 7

" and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit RETURNS to God who gave it."

Return means to go back to a former place, meaning somewhere something has been before. If the bible, God's own words, says that our souls return to him, then this deductively means that our souls pre - existed with God before hand, because the only way something can return to something, the only way it logically makes sense that our souls return to God, is if they had dwelled with God in the first place.

Solomon testifies to this as well in Proverbs 8:23 - 29.

Our souls are our original form; that is why the flesh is often referred to as the " sinful nature," in the bible, and why we must overcome the flesh. There are many verses in which the apostles even talk about going back to and remembering ( which you can't remember something you've never experienced,) in regards to the heavenly country. Our original home.

 

[psychomom]

All this talk of what WE do and what WE do not do,
and OUR holiness and OUR righteousness
is making me
very
very
sad.

because unless we are able to claim we are holy as Christ is Holy,
and we are righteous as Christ is Righteous...

it's completely worthless.
meaning utterly devoid of ANY worth in God's eyes.

It's the Righteousness of Jesus,
in word, deed, and thought, (24/7/365)
or it's nothing.

if we don't understand that, we need to go back to the oracles of God
(the Law)
and begin again.

total depravity?
we just proved it.

 

[tribesman]

All this talk of what WE do and what WE do not do,
and OUR holiness and OUR righteousness
is making me
very
very
sad.

because unless we are able to claim we are holy as Christ is Holy,
and we are righteous as Christ is Righteous...

it's completely worthless.
meaning utterly devoid of ANY worth in God's eyes.

It's the Righteousness of Jesus,
in word, deed, and thought, (24/7/365)
or it's nothing.

if we don't understand that, we need to go back to the oracles of God
(the Law)
and begin again.

total depravity?
we just proved it.

Self righteousness is an abomination that makes desolate.

 

[Kefa52]

what i have said against Wesley? i posted his own writing.....you don't want to believe it? that's your choice.
did you read his work yet?

do you think he practiced what he taught?
is it safe for christians to follow his Methods when he died not believing?
when he said in his own words he was leading the whole world to believe something he himself did not know?
do you believe it is Biblical that ppl receive a Second Blessing which makes them in actuality perfect?

i'm not keeping score of anything. except bad theology.

i never talk about my "works" - if i do they are worthless.

i don't claim to be without sin.

yet:

i have forsaken everyone and everything i knew.

left it all.

it's just ME.

and my church.

and my studies.

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

if you do not believe that, are you a Christian?

i believe in laying aside everything from my former life, and not taking it up again.
i believe in calling sin what it is, by name, and never validating my own sin or anyone else's.
i believe in staying in the scriptures and receiving conviction and reproof as i need it daily, as well as assurance and comfort, holding out the hope we have in the faith delivered once for all.

but i believe in a God who loved the world in such a manner of love that He gave His Only Son.
that whosoever should believe in Him shall not perish, but will receive eternal life.
this God is a Merciful God.

and this God has Power.
i know He does, because He gave it to me when i had none.
i was DEAD.
now i am alive.

i repeat:

i could make a list of all the sins i have committed throughout life.
rest assured i have broken all the commandments.
alongside that list would be forgiveness of them, by Christ Our Lord.

i believe and confess Jesus Christ Crucified for the Forgiveness of sins and eternal life with One True God.
and the christian life comes with everything we need to be delivered Home.

the Spirit is my guarantee.

if you don't believe that, and have that testimony in yourself, are you a christian?

you must be born again.

and the born again man will walk in the light by confessing his sins and forgetting what lies behind.
if you don't believe that God performs saving work in every regenerated believer i think you are a Two-Tiered elitist...i don't think you really are.
but that's what methodism leads to.

it's false. bad doctrine.

Wesley was the perfect example of a man that knew all about God but didn't know God.

 

[unclefester]

I never ever said God does not perform the work Zone..where we deviate and disagree is that i believe he brings this work it to completion..and that this completion is attainable in this life..and just because some did not 'finish well' does not mean" i "must resort to the same fate..after all i have God on my side, cheering me on..willing me to be Holy(By his spirit..not of my own ability..apart from him..nothing) The christian life is not just good sayings and "Go God" cheers..It is a Holy Spirit lead victory walk..from repentance, to walking from sin(repentance is walking away from sin..not towards)

So This is where we deviate..belief is not enough..it cannot be..true belief will produce...and that producing is consistent and not just head knowledge or confessional.

If you truly believe it is God's work in you, why did you use the word "I" instead of "God" in the bolded sentence ? If it is God willing you to be holy, why did you say that "it does not mean that "I" must resort to the same fate" ? Is every christian but you (and your ilk ... the holiness crowd) unwilling to be led of God ? Whether you realize it or not (and you clearly don't), the closer one is to God, the more wretched they see their condition. Interestingly enough, you see the very opposite. Be sure to let us know when you have attained perfection in this flesh. Otherwise, everything you have said and will continue to say is utterly meaningless. As you said yourself, God is not mocked.

 

[Abiding]

If you truly believe it is God's work in you, why did you use the word "I" instead of "God" in the bolded sentence ? If it is God willing you to be holy, why did you say that "it does not mean that "I" must resort to the same fate" ? Is every christian but you (and your ilk ... the holiness crowd) unwilling to be led of God ? Whether you realize it or not (and you clearly don't), the closer one is to God, the more wretched they see their condition. Interestingly enough, you see the very opposite. Be sure to let us know when you have attained perfection in this flesh. Otherwise, everything you have said and will continue to say is utterly meaningless. As you said yourself, God is not mocked.

the more light you put into a room the more grime and dirt you see ......aw pink from memory

 

[Bookends]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


Yes we are putrid beings before God, born into sin by the works of the first Adam. So even though we did nothing wrong in our mothers womb we are conceived into sin. Likewise, when we come born again of God, which means the taking out of one family (one of Satan) and placed into the other family (one of God) by the works of the 2nd Adam. Therefore, even if we are not perfect humans or children of God, all of what Christ is, has done, went through, has experience, His righteousness and etc. has been imparted to us IF WE ARE IN CHRIST!!! Psalms 32:1, "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered" [ notice it doesn't say "taken away" but "covered'...]



Read the verses above, even though we are putrid being before God and born into sin, we are not born into total depravity, we are born knowing God (a very limited knowledge), knowing just enough (the morals that God has written in every persons heart, right vs wrong, and that a higher power-being exists) to embrace Him or reject Him. Those who reject Christ Paul says "are without excuse" implying that they had an opportunity to accept God, and they themselves personally by their choice rejected God.


Everyone is born with a lamp. It's up to us if we buy oil for that lamp or not. The foolish virgins did not, and lost out, but they had a lamp to being with. God says in Job and proverbs that He will snuff out the lamp of the wicked, this right here indicates as well that event he wicked had some light. Job 18:5, "Indeed, the light of the wicked goes out, And the flame of his fire gives no light" and Proverbs 13:9, "The light of the righteous rejoices, But the lamp of the wicked goes out" and Proverbs 24:20, "For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out."


We need to mine the Bible for all its worth, looking at context (immediate passage), Context (the theme and context of the book in which it was written) and CONTEXT (in comparison to the Bible as a whole)! May the Lord give all the art and science of biblical interpretation.

 

[Bookends]

God says in Job and proverbs that He will snuff out the lamp of the wicked, this right here indicates as well that event he wicked had some light.

Correction, sorry for my weakness all: My brain moves faster then my fingers.

"this right here indicates as well that the wicked had some light."

 

[psychomom]

I like your style, Bookends.

And I agree we should mine the Word of God, like it's gold and diamonds.
(cuz it's much, much better!)
Yet, some part of me knows it's ludicrous that I might ever grasp
even a little part of God's thoughts and intentions.

Thank God for His Spirit.
Without it, we're lost, in any way that can mean.

 

[Bookends]

. Therefore, even if we are not perfect humans or children of God, all of what Christ is, has done, went through, has experience, His righteousness and etc. has been imparted to us IF WE ARE IN CHRIST!!! Psalms 32:1, "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered" [ notice it doesn't say "taken away" but "covered'...]

Correction:
Therefore, even if we are not perfect humans or perfect children of God, all of what Christ is, has done, went through, has experience, His righteousness and etc. has been imparted to us IF WE ARE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you truly believe it is God's work in you, why did you use the word "I" instead of "God" in the bolded sentence ? If it is God willing you to be holy, why did you say that "it does not mean that "I" must resort to the same fate" ? Is every christian but you (and your ilk ... the holiness crowd) unwilling to be led of God ? Whether you realize it or not (and you clearly don't), the closer one is to God, the more wretched they see their condition. Interestingly enough, you see the very opposite. Be sure to let us know when you have attained perfection in this flesh. Otherwise, everything you have said and will continue to say is utterly meaningless. As you said yourself, God is not mocked.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. That is how we can know one is growing in Christ. One who grows does not see himself being more righteous, he sees himself as more wretched, as he learns truely what type of person he is when compared to the living God. If one does not see this. I would doubt he knows anything about God.

 

[tribesman]

You hit the nail on the head with that one. That is how we can know one is growing in Christ. One who grows does not see himself being more righteous, he sees himself as more wretched, as he learns truely what type of person he is when compared to the living God. If one does not see this. I would doubt he knows anything about God.

Paul said that those that are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost, even if they are zealous for God. They are lost because they still go about to establish their own righteousness and refuses to submit to the righteousness of God.

Rom.1

[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.