Total Depravity vs. Freewill
- Thread starter RickShafer
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R
What absurdity you speak..
I am not accusing Jesus..I am merely saying what his word says..you can ignore this if you wish though..
but you have BETTER be walking with God..belief without fruit of repentance which means one walks with God and not from God is needed.
Take whatever theological 'stance' you may zone..but its either A. You belong to him and prove this by your walk B. You do not walk and merely have a form of godliness..
there is not grey areas here..sorry.
its either you are a christian..and a true one..or you have not repented..
its that simple.
I am not accusing Jesus..I am merely saying what his word says..you can ignore this if you wish though..
but you have BETTER be walking with God..belief without fruit of repentance which means one walks with God and not from God is needed.
Take whatever theological 'stance' you may zone..but its either A. You belong to him and prove this by your walk B. You do not walk and merely have a form of godliness..
there is not grey areas here..sorry.
its either you are a christian..and a true one..or you have not repented..
its that simple.
R
You either take God at his word..or do not.
Its simple really.
Will you point to your election..or Baby Baptism like John Calvin did..or will you show you truly believed God by walking with him? You will after all..be without excuse..all men will be.
Thats the question..
Do you walk with him? If you do..no five point calvinism..no 'election' identity..no thought that you are a filthy 'sinner' is going to hold you back..nothing..those are all lies. The 'elect' is the one who walks with God..God is not going to make you do anything. You'd be a mere puppet in his hands, and it would go against his good nature and a true meaning of relationship if you were coerced. A man may force a woman to stay with him,even if she wants to leave. God is nothing like a sinfull man. This is merely an encouragement to you, to walk..get up and walk. What did Jesus say to the man laying by the pool of bethesda..when he kept on with his excuses..Jesus said..get up! Walk! That was it..this is a call to all those who lay down and are too lazy to get their healing.. Get up. But my question to you is this..do you really want to get well? Only you know the answer to this question..
thats all really..its an admonition. He is Holy..let's start acting like he is and believe it. You will sow what you reap..sow to the flesh,death..sow to the spirit..life. Choose life..so that you may live..after all..God says you do have a Choice..and i esteem what God says far more than what Luther..or John Calvin..or John Piper ever said..
you choose today who you will serve..your stomach/flesh..or God.
You really can choose..
thats all.
Its simple really.
Will you point to your election..or Baby Baptism like John Calvin did..or will you show you truly believed God by walking with him? You will after all..be without excuse..all men will be.
Thats the question..
Do you walk with him? If you do..no five point calvinism..no 'election' identity..no thought that you are a filthy 'sinner' is going to hold you back..nothing..those are all lies. The 'elect' is the one who walks with God..God is not going to make you do anything. You'd be a mere puppet in his hands, and it would go against his good nature and a true meaning of relationship if you were coerced. A man may force a woman to stay with him,even if she wants to leave. God is nothing like a sinfull man. This is merely an encouragement to you, to walk..get up and walk. What did Jesus say to the man laying by the pool of bethesda..when he kept on with his excuses..Jesus said..get up! Walk! That was it..this is a call to all those who lay down and are too lazy to get their healing.. Get up. But my question to you is this..do you really want to get well? Only you know the answer to this question..
thats all really..its an admonition. He is Holy..let's start acting like he is and believe it. You will sow what you reap..sow to the flesh,death..sow to the spirit..life. Choose life..so that you may live..after all..God says you do have a Choice..and i esteem what God says far more than what Luther..or John Calvin..or John Piper ever said..
you choose today who you will serve..your stomach/flesh..or God.
You really can choose..
thats all.
Name different well known names all you can (who said I support John Piper???)...its meaningless to respond to your out of the blue assumptions.
I trust the righteousness and holiness of Christ. You trust your own of both. That's the difference between our views.
Worry less about other people and worry much about yourself and your blindness to your own state. A condition your current belief system will not help you out of. All for now.
I trust the righteousness and holiness of Christ. You trust your own of both. That's the difference between our views.
Worry less about other people and worry much about yourself and your blindness to your own state. A condition your current belief system will not help you out of. All for now.
oh yes....the burning bosom...
subjective feelings is the hallmark of methodism.
there's that second blessing deception.
your refusal to seek out the root and foundation of your own belief system is on your head.
you've been given notice: if you continue to uphold the false system invented by Wesley, that's your own doing. you can assured, this always leads in one direction.
look forward in time to the Charismatic movement - this is the fruit of subjectivity and measuring according to self.
ever-increasing need to experience something...no faith...
it's so unbiblical Wesley had to invent new doctrine.
you can face it, like we all have, or not - your freewill choice.
here's what will happen - later on you will blaming the church for whatever befalls you.
standard o.p.
i care for you raul. i hope you examine where your own foundation came from.
without question. but fruit is inevitable.
if anyone is in Christ he will bring forth fruit.
anyone not in Christ is none of His.
it's not a bell curve. it's one or the other.
here's what Jesus said:
John 15
2. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
9. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
what did Jesus mean in verse 9?
absolutely. and i'm so grateful you're careful and honest enough to express what is actually said:
"no longer practices sin"
i don't understand where the idea of "no longer practices sin" cancels out "practicing righteousness".
we are born form above and now learn/practice to do one and not the other.
we're told in the epistles to christians - the church- to stop presenting ourselves to serve sin rather to serve the Lord. how will the new believer EVER learn this if he is taught there's an easy out?? a second blessing....a warm feeling that will indicate he has arrived?
our faith is in Christ's Work and the evidence of His Mercy is His work in our new lives.
the only issue i have with any of this is when we have people crossing over into Jesus being an example haning on the Cross and nothing more....that's where hyper-methodism goes - abstractions and subjectivity.
no longer practicing sin is every converts new goal - WE HATE IT!
are you trying to tell us it is easy?
who is calling for cheap grace?
you said your best friend was a cheap gracer - for 17 years! what took you so long?
do you see what i'm saying?
if we think at any time there is an instant sinlessness outside Christ's, i do not know what to say.
raul, do you believe Christ's Righteousness is credited to the one baptised into His death and raised with Him?
i am not asking "do you believe now that we are in Christ can we keep practicing sin" i am asking "how were you ever righteous enough to be baptised into Christ?" you've already declared it is not your standing.
it's a fine line having this discussion with you; because i don't see you over the top denying Christ's Finished Work. i just see a christian who wants to live a clean life.
and who disagrees with that? not one single christian i know...not one raul.
i don't know thousands in person, but i do know about 70 at my church.
no one claims they are perfect, but they are such oddballs (as we all are now in the eyes of those among whom we once lived) because of their conviction to be separate.
not from going into the world, but from being defiled by it.
i don't know how gruesome to get with my own testimony, but put 2 and 2 together.
okay....i agree with this simple statement.
with the adjustment.
love zone.
subjective feelings is the hallmark of methodism.
there's that second blessing deception.
your refusal to seek out the root and foundation of your own belief system is on your head.
you've been given notice: if you continue to uphold the false system invented by Wesley, that's your own doing. you can assured, this always leads in one direction.
look forward in time to the Charismatic movement - this is the fruit of subjectivity and measuring according to self.
ever-increasing need to experience something...no faith...
it's so unbiblical Wesley had to invent new doctrine.
you can face it, like we all have, or not - your freewill choice.
here's what will happen - later on you will blaming the church for whatever befalls you.
standard o.p.
i care for you raul. i hope you examine where your own foundation came from.
without question. but fruit is inevitable.
if anyone is in Christ he will bring forth fruit.
anyone not in Christ is none of His.
it's not a bell curve. it's one or the other.
here's what Jesus said:
John 15
2. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
9. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
what did Jesus mean in verse 9?
absolutely. and i'm so grateful you're careful and honest enough to express what is actually said:
"no longer practices sin"
i don't understand where the idea of "no longer practices sin" cancels out "practicing righteousness".
we are born form above and now learn/practice to do one and not the other.
we're told in the epistles to christians - the church- to stop presenting ourselves to serve sin rather to serve the Lord. how will the new believer EVER learn this if he is taught there's an easy out?? a second blessing....a warm feeling that will indicate he has arrived?
our faith is in Christ's Work and the evidence of His Mercy is His work in our new lives.
the only issue i have with any of this is when we have people crossing over into Jesus being an example haning on the Cross and nothing more....that's where hyper-methodism goes - abstractions and subjectivity.
no longer practicing sin is every converts new goal - WE HATE IT!
are you trying to tell us it is easy?
who is calling for cheap grace?you said your best friend was a cheap gracer - for 17 years! what took you so long?
do you see what i'm saying?
if we think at any time there is an instant sinlessness outside Christ's, i do not know what to say.
raul, do you believe Christ's Righteousness is credited to the one baptised into His death and raised with Him?
i am not asking "do you believe now that we are in Christ can we keep practicing sin" i am asking "how were you ever righteous enough to be baptised into Christ?" you've already declared it is not your standing.
it's a fine line having this discussion with you; because i don't see you over the top denying Christ's Finished Work. i just see a christian who wants to live a clean life.
and who disagrees with that? not one single christian i know...not one raul.
i don't know thousands in person, but i do know about 70 at my church.
no one claims they are perfect, but they are such oddballs (as we all are now in the eyes of those among whom we once lived) because of their conviction to be separate.
not from going into the world, but from being defiled by it.
i don't know how gruesome to get with my own testimony, but put 2 and 2 together.
okay....i agree with this simple statement.
with the adjustment.
love zone.
R
If you trust in the Holiness of God..you would not speak against Holy and right living..therefore you contradict yourself once again.
Difference of 'views' will not matter when all stand before him..Calvin won't speak for you..No man can speak for you..or died for you..only one did..And the stakes are high..make sure that you know what you are implying.
I am working on me..but do i focusing on my life(i do it far more than you can ever imagine, you know not where God rescued me from and why i stand with conviction)
And as far as belief system..that is the difference. I believe something that says a response is required..five point calvinism hardly even talks about repentance..its all about being 'elect' and pointing to that. Look at the life of any typical calvinist..they smoke..cuss..go to bars..do whatever and still say they are christian..they point to reformed theology and claim this shows they are saved. Wow..what deception.
The calvinist points to election and only to this election,and to the teachings of the founder..John Calvin..for the most part..few i have heard on here..maybe one, ever truly speak of holiness..i believe him..but sadly he never posts here. Those who practice and believe in Holiness merely want to avoid licentious behavior that teachings like five point high calvinism have brought about.
The only man that is blind is he that thinks he can live a sinfull life and practice sin..yet be right before God.
I never said that..you seem to be implying that..that's dangerous ground you are walking on.
But you have been warned..and will not be with excuse.
We either walk(apart from theology, beyond grace..there is a true response to grace, and to good theology) You show what you believe by your actions..
talk about Jesus all you want..if you are a sunday christian..shut it and do not be disingenuous.
God cannot be fooled..fool me..fool your buddies here. But God..he is smarter and bigger than you or I..you won't get away with anything with him.
I will choose believing God is Holy and not to be toyed with..before believing that he is licentious and will let me get away with everything that the flesh would like to get away with.
Difference of 'views' will not matter when all stand before him..Calvin won't speak for you..No man can speak for you..or died for you..only one did..And the stakes are high..make sure that you know what you are implying.
I am working on me..but do i focusing on my life(i do it far more than you can ever imagine, you know not where God rescued me from and why i stand with conviction)
And as far as belief system..that is the difference. I believe something that says a response is required..five point calvinism hardly even talks about repentance..its all about being 'elect' and pointing to that. Look at the life of any typical calvinist..they smoke..cuss..go to bars..do whatever and still say they are christian..they point to reformed theology and claim this shows they are saved. Wow..what deception.
The calvinist points to election and only to this election,and to the teachings of the founder..John Calvin..for the most part..few i have heard on here..maybe one, ever truly speak of holiness..i believe him..but sadly he never posts here. Those who practice and believe in Holiness merely want to avoid licentious behavior that teachings like five point high calvinism have brought about.
The only man that is blind is he that thinks he can live a sinfull life and practice sin..yet be right before God.
I never said that..you seem to be implying that..that's dangerous ground you are walking on.
But you have been warned..and will not be with excuse.
We either walk(apart from theology, beyond grace..there is a true response to grace, and to good theology) You show what you believe by your actions..
talk about Jesus all you want..if you are a sunday christian..shut it and do not be disingenuous.
God cannot be fooled..fool me..fool your buddies here. But God..he is smarter and bigger than you or I..you won't get away with anything with him.
I will choose believing God is Holy and not to be toyed with..before believing that he is licentious and will let me get away with everything that the flesh would like to get away with.
here's where you find licentiousness in the visible church: this business didn't come from the Reformed camp.
one guess where it came from.
18 Dangers of the Charismatic Movement < click
better be careful, raul.
zone
one guess where it came from.
18 Dangers of the Charismatic Movement < click
better be careful, raul.
zone
I have not spoken against holy and right living...that's a lie and a false accusation and not the first time you go down that road. I have spoken against self righteousness and self holiness - HUGE difference. A difference you seem to be ignorant of. Which is tragic. You do tell a lot of people here to "repent", and "warn" them too. Yet you are blind to your own need for repentance and deaf to the warning of your trust in self and your own ability to be "Holy as God is holy" (which you are not, in and of yourself, but which you talk about now and then, so much for "shut it"). You can keep imagining that it is only others who need to repent and not yourself and see where that leads you. Imagine that what you do and say here is not sin and you've already proven your hypocrisy. There's nothing more to say. Likely this is on deaf ears and your pie throwing is not amusing only boring. Good night.
Last edited:
R
oh yes....the burning bosom...
subjective feelings is the hallmark of methodism.
there's that second blessing deception.
your refusal to seek out the root and foundation of your own belief system is on your head.
you've been given notice: if you continue to uphold the false system invented by Wesley, that's your own doing. you can assured, this always leads in one direction.
look forward in time to the Charismatic movement - this is the fruit of subjectivity and measuring according to self.
ever-increasing need to experience something...no faith...
it's so unbiblical Wesley had to invent new doctrine.
you can face it, like we all have, or not - your freewill choice.
here's what will happen - later on you will blaming the church for whatever befalls you.
standard o.p.
i care for you raul. i hope you examine where your own foundation came from.
without question. but fruit is inevitable.
if anyone is in Christ he will bring forth fruit.
anyone not in Christ is none of His.
it's not a bell curve. it's one or the other.
here's what Jesus said:
John 15
2. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
9. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
what did Jesus mean in verse 9?
absolutely. and i'm so grateful you're careful and honest enough to express what is actually said:
"no longer practices sin"
i don't understand where the idea of "no longer practices sin" cancels out "practicing righteousness".
we are born form above and now learn/practice to do one and not the other.
we're told in the epistles to christians - the church- to stop presenting ourselves to serve sin rather to serve the Lord. how will the new believer EVER learn this if he is taught there's an easy out?? a second blessing....a warm feeling that will indicate he has arrived?
our faith is in Christ's Work and the evidence of His Mercy is His work in our new lives.
the only issue i have with any of this is when we have people crossing over into Jesus being an example haning on the Cross and nothing more....that's where hyper-methodism goes - abstractions and subjectivity.
no longer practicing sin is every converts new goal - WE HATE IT!
are you trying to tell us it is easy? who is calling for cheap grace?
you said your best friend was a cheap gracer - for 17 years! what took you so long?
do you see what i'm saying?
if we think at any time there is an instant sinlessness outside Christ's, i do not know what to say.
raul, do you believe Christ's Righteousness is credited to the one baptised into His death and raised with Him?
i am not asking "do you believe now that we are in Christ can we keep practicing sin" i am asking "how were you ever righteous enough to be baptised into Christ?" you've already declared it is not your standing.
it's a fine line having this discussion with you; because i don't see you over the top denying Christ's Finished Work. i just see a christian who wants to live a clean life.
and who disagrees with that? not one single christian i know...not one raul.
i don't know thousands in person, but i do know about 70 at my church.
no one claims they are perfect, but they are such oddballs (as we all are now in the eyes of those among whom we once lived) because of their conviction to be separate.
not from going into the world, but from being defiled by it.
i don't know how gruesome to get with my own testimony, but put 2 and 2 together.
okay....i agree with this simple statement.
with the adjustment.
love zone.
subjective feelings is the hallmark of methodism.
there's that second blessing deception.
your refusal to seek out the root and foundation of your own belief system is on your head.
you've been given notice: if you continue to uphold the false system invented by Wesley, that's your own doing. you can assured, this always leads in one direction.
look forward in time to the Charismatic movement - this is the fruit of subjectivity and measuring according to self.
ever-increasing need to experience something...no faith...
it's so unbiblical Wesley had to invent new doctrine.
you can face it, like we all have, or not - your freewill choice.
here's what will happen - later on you will blaming the church for whatever befalls you.
standard o.p.
i care for you raul. i hope you examine where your own foundation came from.
without question. but fruit is inevitable.
if anyone is in Christ he will bring forth fruit.
anyone not in Christ is none of His.
it's not a bell curve. it's one or the other.
here's what Jesus said:
John 15
2. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
9. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
what did Jesus mean in verse 9?
absolutely. and i'm so grateful you're careful and honest enough to express what is actually said:
"no longer practices sin"
i don't understand where the idea of "no longer practices sin" cancels out "practicing righteousness".
we are born form above and now learn/practice to do one and not the other.
we're told in the epistles to christians - the church- to stop presenting ourselves to serve sin rather to serve the Lord. how will the new believer EVER learn this if he is taught there's an easy out?? a second blessing....a warm feeling that will indicate he has arrived?
our faith is in Christ's Work and the evidence of His Mercy is His work in our new lives.
the only issue i have with any of this is when we have people crossing over into Jesus being an example haning on the Cross and nothing more....that's where hyper-methodism goes - abstractions and subjectivity.
no longer practicing sin is every converts new goal - WE HATE IT!
are you trying to tell us it is easy?
who is calling for cheap grace?you said your best friend was a cheap gracer - for 17 years! what took you so long?
do you see what i'm saying?
if we think at any time there is an instant sinlessness outside Christ's, i do not know what to say.
raul, do you believe Christ's Righteousness is credited to the one baptised into His death and raised with Him?
i am not asking "do you believe now that we are in Christ can we keep practicing sin" i am asking "how were you ever righteous enough to be baptised into Christ?" you've already declared it is not your standing.
it's a fine line having this discussion with you; because i don't see you over the top denying Christ's Finished Work. i just see a christian who wants to live a clean life.
and who disagrees with that? not one single christian i know...not one raul.
i don't know thousands in person, but i do know about 70 at my church.
no one claims they are perfect, but they are such oddballs (as we all are now in the eyes of those among whom we once lived) because of their conviction to be separate.
not from going into the world, but from being defiled by it.
i don't know how gruesome to get with my own testimony, but put 2 and 2 together.
okay....i agree with this simple statement.
with the adjustment.
love zone.
He was more concerned with converting me to Calvinism than ever encouraging me to live for God..we were friends for all that time..for about the past few years give for take 8 years he is a christian..but a few years into his walk he discovered reform theology..and I mean he is a High Calvinist! I do not say i am not going to hang with him but in this season of my life..i need a break..and need to be around those who truly believe God will help us to live for him. And he had family matters to attend to..i wanted him to do that and focus on that too..and arguing with him about theology was not going to help him..or me.
I believe in Righteousness imputed by Christ..where you and I may possibly disagree is that i believe its a complete work..not just 'forensic' Its an inner working too. In hebrews 10:14 says with one offering he has perfected them that are sanctfied(being made holy in another translation)
If we go on sinning..well then there is no hope for us..it says so in hebrews 10:26! Sin is a big deal..not saying you do not agree. And yes..grace is there..but we are to responsible with that..and never use it to excuse anything.
Not saying you have..but some here do seem to promote this.
As far as my personal life and where God brought me from..he brought me out of a very low place..sadly even my seeking out many christians for help in many churches(in my desire to live for God for many years) Nobody wanted accountability..no one even pointed me in the right direction. Not blaming..but this was my experience and i realized its because many of them did not know how to live for God themselves..they could not give what they did not receive themselves!
That said..i know why in my heart Holiness appealed to me..it was not because i am better than you..or anyone on here..its because its in the heart of every man and woman..to want to be right before God..even if they do not admit it. And God enables us to..and he cannot have two standards..He is Holy, and he wants us to be set apart for him too.
As far as Wesley being a sinner..I do not know if he ever acheived 'perfection' or if he struggled..at times one sees he did have very human responses to things..other times he was very very private in his life(from what i have read) I am currently reading a ginormous book of Wesley's works and will return to it soon to read a few more pages before work beckons.
I can only graciously disagree that he was a sinner, may he have had some regrets..don't we all! I know I have...the times i disobeyed my parents..did not take my Father's advice..etc..allowed bitterness to form a root in my life which resulted in some very bad stuff..etc. I could write a book about where God has brought me.
Id like to think you care..but thats not the full matter at hand. It does seem that perhaps you may have a bias about being against Wesley, and Its not for me to change your mind..after all..Wesley was just 'some dude' God used..Im sure if he was alive today he'd say it in that way..Yes..some of Methodism has lost its way..My first experiences with 'methodism' had me running the other way, aka the UMC united methodist church aka what i like to call the American Remonstrant Church(For their liberal stances now and deviating from true classical arminianism..they're not even Wesleyan anymore)
But my experiences with the Free Methodists, and The Wesleyan church(specifically) has changed my mind..I purposed in my heart to avoid any church that taught the five points of calvinism, because i have rejected it since i knew of them..because of how God is painted in the light of them..and my seeking to find a place that would help me to learn how to live for God is what brought me to the Wesleyan Church..its a long story..my pilgrimage..
maybe one day we can talk via pm if you want about it..even avoiding Wesley persee..if you want..because after all..its not about him..its about Jesus..I believe Holy and right living has biblical origin far more than a Wesleyan Arminian beginning anyways.
i agree with you....on all counts.
in this post.
but we are sorely divided on what it is we are first and foremost repenting of.
Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
and we ought to be very cautious when discussing Grace this way.
you didn't deserve it before you were saved and you don't deserve it now.
no boasting - AT ALL.
ttyl.
in this post.
but we are sorely divided on what it is we are first and foremost repenting of.
Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
and we ought to be very cautious when discussing Grace this way.
you didn't deserve it before you were saved and you don't deserve it now.
no boasting - AT ALL.
ttyl.
amen.
we do not disagree.
if you hold to Christ's Righteousness, we have good ground.
but we do.
you did. for a long time.
you're blaming other christians. but this was your walk all along raul.
The Lord nevertheless had mercy on you, and honors your efforts to lay down the sinful life....you said your power comes from Him.
so hopefully you will not swing to the other extreme and beat up broken sinners who may need as much time as you had.
because they have left off the consistent teaching and preaching from the Scriptures wherein is everything needed for the sanctified life.
to much experientialism; too much works-based performance stuff (visibly showing how saved we are); and yes, ppl who look for excuses to sin consistenly, practicing sin are always there.
get used to it.
you did it too. now you know better. you turned the page from Romans 6 & 7 to 8.
just remember the guy next to you is saved, but still in 7. that's what it is there for. help him - don't threaten him - you'll only create a hypocrite pretending he has no sin because he is told he should have been sinless....he should have experienced a warm feeling or whatever.
stopping sin isn't easy - it's painful. if someone is not apparently suffering for playing around, they either will be chastised and brought back (a son) or not (not a son).
if they are not a son, they need the Gospel:
Christ's Righteousness and Power, not our own.
right.
so are you able to stay steady not not go to the extreme where you will not be able to have compassion on a brother who hasn't reached the strength you have? if you aren't ready for that without being drawn into sin yourself, its good you recognize that.
but watch out you don't end up being the stereotype snob you say calvinists are
a servant is not greater than his Master, is he?
okay.
sounds good.
no more Wesley then.
how about no more Calvin?
or Luther?
*thinks not*
let's see what saith The Lord.
we do not disagree.
if you hold to Christ's Righteousness, we have good ground.
but we do.
you did. for a long time.
you're blaming other christians. but this was your walk all along raul.
The Lord nevertheless had mercy on you, and honors your efforts to lay down the sinful life....you said your power comes from Him.
so hopefully you will not swing to the other extreme and beat up broken sinners who may need as much time as you had.
because they have left off the consistent teaching and preaching from the Scriptures wherein is everything needed for the sanctified life.
to much experientialism; too much works-based performance stuff (visibly showing how saved we are); and yes, ppl who look for excuses to sin consistenly, practicing sin are always there.
get used to it.
you did it too. now you know better. you turned the page from Romans 6 & 7 to 8.
just remember the guy next to you is saved, but still in 7. that's what it is there for. help him - don't threaten him - you'll only create a hypocrite pretending he has no sin because he is told he should have been sinless....he should have experienced a warm feeling or whatever.
stopping sin isn't easy - it's painful. if someone is not apparently suffering for playing around, they either will be chastised and brought back (a son) or not (not a son).
if they are not a son, they need the Gospel:
Christ's Righteousness and Power, not our own.
right.
so are you able to stay steady not not go to the extreme where you will not be able to have compassion on a brother who hasn't reached the strength you have? if you aren't ready for that without being drawn into sin yourself, its good you recognize that.
but watch out you don't end up being the stereotype snob you say calvinists are
a servant is not greater than his Master, is he?
okay.
sounds good.
no more Wesley then.
how about no more Calvin?
or Luther?
*thinks not*
let's see what saith The Lord.
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Hi EG
That is gracious of you to say so, for I know you know well the Gospel, but whatever we know we know because of what God has shown us by His Spirit within us
These people continually stress purity. You would think honesty would be required for a pure heart wouldn't you
Therefore when they stress we must live sinless lives(obeying all of the law/Christ's literal commandments) they should add to that that there are many of Christ's commands they do not even attempt to obey themselves
And when they insist the new convert must THEMSELVES crucify the flesh, they should admit they have never crucified their own flesh
But this is nothing new, the Pharisees harrassed Christ as a law breaker, but as Christ told them, they did not keep the law themselves, so why kill him(accuse him ) for supposedly not keeping them(John7:19)
Such is the hypocrisy of those who in their hearts seek a righteousness of their own before God.
That is gracious of you to say so, for I know you know well the Gospel, but whatever we know we know because of what God has shown us by His Spirit within us
These people continually stress purity. You would think honesty would be required for a pure heart wouldn't you
Therefore when they stress we must live sinless lives(obeying all of the law/Christ's literal commandments) they should add to that that there are many of Christ's commands they do not even attempt to obey themselves
And when they insist the new convert must THEMSELVES crucify the flesh, they should admit they have never crucified their own flesh
But this is nothing new, the Pharisees harrassed Christ as a law breaker, but as Christ told them, they did not keep the law themselves, so why kill him(accuse him ) for supposedly not keeping them(John7:19)
Such is the hypocrisy of those who in their hearts seek a righteousness of their own before God.
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R
amen.
we do not disagree.
if you hold to Christ's Righteousness, we have good ground.
but we do.
you did. for a long time.
you're blaming other christians. but this was your walk all along raul.
The Lord nevertheless had mercy on you, and honors your efforts to lay down the sinful life....you said your power comes from Him.
so hopefully you will not swing to the other extreme and beat up broken sinners who may need as much time as you had.
because they have left off the consistent teaching and preaching from the Scriptures wherein is everything needed for the sanctified life.
to much experientialism; too much works-based performance stuff (visibly showing how saved we are); and yes, ppl who look for excuses to sin consistenly, practicing sin are always there.
get used to it.
you did it too. now you know better. you turned the page from Romans 6 & 7 to 8.
just remember the guy next to you is saved, but still in 7. that's what it is there for. help him - don't threaten him - you'll only create a hypocrite pretending he has no sin because he is told he should have been sinless....he should have experienced a warm feeling or whatever.
stopping sin isn't easy - it's painful. if someone is not apparently suffering for playing around, they either will be chastised and brought back (a son) or not (not a son).
if they are not a son, they need the Gospel:
Christ's Righteousness and Power, not our own.
right.
so are you able to stay steady not not go to the extreme where you will not be able to have compassion on a brother who hasn't reached the strength you have? if you aren't ready for that without being drawn into sin yourself, its good you recognize that.
but watch out you don't end up being the stereotype snob you say calvinists are
a servant is not greater than his Master, is he?
okay.
sounds good.
no more Wesley then.
how about no more Calvin?
or Luther?
*thinks not*
let's see what saith The Lord.
we do not disagree.
if you hold to Christ's Righteousness, we have good ground.
but we do.
you did. for a long time.
you're blaming other christians. but this was your walk all along raul.
The Lord nevertheless had mercy on you, and honors your efforts to lay down the sinful life....you said your power comes from Him.
so hopefully you will not swing to the other extreme and beat up broken sinners who may need as much time as you had.
because they have left off the consistent teaching and preaching from the Scriptures wherein is everything needed for the sanctified life.
to much experientialism; too much works-based performance stuff (visibly showing how saved we are); and yes, ppl who look for excuses to sin consistenly, practicing sin are always there.
get used to it.
you did it too. now you know better. you turned the page from Romans 6 & 7 to 8.
just remember the guy next to you is saved, but still in 7. that's what it is there for. help him - don't threaten him - you'll only create a hypocrite pretending he has no sin because he is told he should have been sinless....he should have experienced a warm feeling or whatever.
stopping sin isn't easy - it's painful. if someone is not apparently suffering for playing around, they either will be chastised and brought back (a son) or not (not a son).
if they are not a son, they need the Gospel:
Christ's Righteousness and Power, not our own.
right.
so are you able to stay steady not not go to the extreme where you will not be able to have compassion on a brother who hasn't reached the strength you have? if you aren't ready for that without being drawn into sin yourself, its good you recognize that.
but watch out you don't end up being the stereotype snob you say calvinists are
a servant is not greater than his Master, is he?
okay.
sounds good.
no more Wesley then.
how about no more Calvin?
or Luther?
*thinks not*
let's see what saith The Lord.
It simply is not true..
Stop sinning is a command by God..And he left us the ability through the Holy Spirit..and all those who wish to have this can have this.
As far as Calvin(i do not see why you defend him) History shows he was a murderer..No proof of conversion or repentance..so..as far as Luther..Ive not mentioned him in ages..I merely pointed out his anti semetism..which is not a secret..God used him in the reformation..but he would have used a donkey if needed.
Nobody here is looking down on anyone Zone..but when a person here accuses me of boasting that i did anything(when I clearly did not) I am going to make the assumption that they want to live in their sins and hate holiness..which is God's mandate..not mine..its in scripture..read it..1 thessalonians 4.
Listen to Paul, its not me who wrote this.
As far as you saying, what took me so long..I never blamed anyone Zone, do not get it twisted..I simply said i had not the convenience/blessing/opportunity for someone to tell me..hey, Raul..turn around..do no go further..bad place you are in! No one said it..this is not blaming anyone here(I did not say it was anyone's fault..but bad theology of thinking someone may not be elect will prevent you from witnessing or even looking out for your neighbor) After all..if God cannot reach them..I cannot do anything..and they are a lost cause. I know this from speaking to some calvinists..who are extreme and see everything according to absolute divine determinism and double predestination..everything they see and do is colored with these concepts. Perhaps you have had different experiences Zone..I am merely speaking of mine. I am sure you have had different experiences..i merely tell you of what i have experienced. When you have someone who is more interested in arguing theology with you..calling your pastor insincere,teling you that you go to an unbiblical church and are more interested in 'arguing' with you then encouraging you to live for God..or keep you accountable..one must walk away.
It's fruitless..
This is not about 'time'..nobody is guaranteed tomorrow..I am truly sorry you think i am beating up on sinners..but if i see things from this viewpoint..and speak with this level of conviction..its merely because i wish someone else did that for me(they did not..and it is what it is) But I want better for others..and if they misunderstand me..well..it would not be the first time i was misunderstood..I used to be in church leadership before at one time in a church and recall speaking my heart about a conviction and sadness that many attendees were slipping through the cracks and not attending our church(the one i attended back then) and what was to be done about it..Everyone in that leadership meeting looked as if they wanted to take me out and stone me..Just saying this for an example. They thought i was wanting to pile on more work for the secretary..or the Pastor..I merely was saying..hey, here is a need..can we figure out what to do about this need? Nobody understood my heart..i may not have said it perfectly..but i did say, it grieves my heart that many slip through the cracks and nobody hears of them anymore..what will do about this pastor?
*in biblical times, i would have been taken outside and stoned to death I am sure..*
I would rather someone dislike me..or become offended than to live out their lives and not think about where they are going..if it offends them..and this offense exposes their problem..then Praise God..maybe he willed that they be 'offended'
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R
Dear Zone..if my stressing to live right and do right seems exhaustive to you..I merely am stressing what few churches even talk about anymore..
Grace that is true grace includes responsibility..and we may not have all the 'time' needed to tell others..if they get offended or feel its harping on them..or deflect it back with a 'focus on your life' let me live how i want(I hear this all the time..by christians and non christians by the way) then ultimately i stand before God and can only speak what i know he wants me to say.
I know, that he would not want me to keep quiet..Ive had some tell me this for fear of rejection..i even have family members who are not christian encourage me to not even bring a bible to work or even read anything 'religious' at my job..should i then be motivated by fear? Heavens no.
I simply wish someone would have been diligent to tell me..I am not mad..saddened though at times(id be lying if i said otherwise) and sad that i did not find the Wesleyan Church sooner..but better late than never..
Grace that is true grace includes responsibility..and we may not have all the 'time' needed to tell others..if they get offended or feel its harping on them..or deflect it back with a 'focus on your life' let me live how i want(I hear this all the time..by christians and non christians by the way) then ultimately i stand before God and can only speak what i know he wants me to say.
I know, that he would not want me to keep quiet..Ive had some tell me this for fear of rejection..i even have family members who are not christian encourage me to not even bring a bible to work or even read anything 'religious' at my job..should i then be motivated by fear? Heavens no.
I simply wish someone would have been diligent to tell me..I am not mad..saddened though at times(id be lying if i said otherwise) and sad that i did not find the Wesleyan Church sooner..but better late than never..
P
I believe God calls all of us to Him .. and also prepares our ear to hear....
I sat in church for years, went to religious schools and still did not hear... It was through brokeness in my flesh i cried out to God...
he came...i am not schooled by theologians , but schooled by the Holy Spiit Wich I also called out to... Election? Hmmm we are all elected .. Called for ... I had to come to an end of self before desiring any relationship with Jesus... we have a mighty God who loves and saves... I made it so difficult, God makes it so simple...
I sat in church for years, went to religious schools and still did not hear... It was through brokeness in my flesh i cried out to God...
he came...i am not schooled by theologians , but schooled by the Holy Spiit Wich I also called out to... Election? Hmmm we are all elected .. Called for ... I had to come to an end of self before desiring any relationship with Jesus... we have a mighty God who loves and saves... I made it so difficult, God makes it so simple...