Which Covenant?

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Laodicea

Guest
#21
Hebrews already shows that "the law" being referenced is not the 10 commandments, so that's not what's being written on anyone's heart.

"The law" being spoken of is "the law" concerning the new covenant. The character of Christ is not the 10 commandments, it is something far greater than that. The character of Christ is love.

Hbr 8:6
"...He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."
Jeremiah 31:31-33
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The old covenant was based upon faulty promises. Israel promised to do all that God had said and broke their promise. The new covenant is not based upon faulty promises
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#22
...The old covenant was based upon faulty promises. Israel promised to do all that God had said and broke their promise. The new covenant is not based upon faulty promises
Do you care to elaborate a little on how "the old covenant was based upon faulty promises"? What was "faulty" with the promises?

That the people were faulty I am well aware of.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#23
I believe the fault was meant in reference to, that men broke their side of the Old Covenant.

I add this because i first considered what was meant by "faulty promises"

Glory to Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.
 
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tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#24
I believe the fault was meant in reference to, that men broke their side of the Old Covenant.

I add this because i first considered what was meant by "faulty promises"

Glory to Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.
The english word faulty is used two times in the KJV. Both referring to faulty people.

2Sam.14

[13] And the woman said, Wherefore then hast thou thought such a thing against the people of God? for the king doth speak this thing as one which is faulty, in that the king doth not fetch home again his banished.
Hos.10

[2] Their heart is divided; now shall they be found faulty: he shall break down their altars, he shall spoil their images.
 
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#25
Hebrew 8 is quoted time and again, with absolute misunderstanding, to say that God’s covenants and law is obsolete, over and out, get rid of it. That is not what God is saying!

The author of Hebrews was telling us God wants us to know of the contrast between how He used the tabernacle to explain Christ to His people before Christ had appeared with us, and how it was completed with the cross and resurrection. The blood used in the temple as a shadfow of the blood of Christ is obsolete, now we use the actual happening of Christ.

God speaks in scripture. God would not say that He is a wrong God who did wrong things. That would not be true for God is truth.

You all have bibles, like Moe says, I am not going to copy the book of Hebrews for you!! Get out your own bibles and read.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#26
...You all have bibles, like Moe says, I am not going to copy the book of Hebrews for you!! Get out your own bibles and read.
Yes, the truth is out there for all to seek and consider.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#27
The english word faulty is used two times in the KJV. Both referring to faulty people.
I was referring to what i thought Laodicea meant.... he said:

The old covenant was based upon faulty promises. Israel promised to do all that God had said and broke their promise. The new covenant is not based upon faulty promises

I did not notice the verses you quoted in his post.




My fault for not taking more time to be concise, forgive me.
 
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tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#28
I was referring to what i thought Laodicea meant.... he said:

I did not notice the verses you quoted in his post.

My fault for not taking more time to be concise, forgive me.
Yes, I got that. We shall see if he replies to the Q.

However, I did not quote any verses from his post. These were search results from the KJV.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#29
Hebrew 8 is quoted time and again, with absolute misunderstanding, to say that God’s covenants and law is obsolete, over and out, get rid of it. That is not what God is saying!

The author of Hebrews was telling us God wants us to know of the contrast between how He used the tabernacle to explain Christ to His people before Christ had appeared with us, and how it was completed with the cross and resurrection. The blood used in the temple as a shadfow of the blood of Christ is obsolete, now we use the actual happening of Christ.

God speaks in scripture. God would not say that He is a wrong God who did wrong things. That would not be true for God is truth.

You all have bibles, like Moe says, I am not going to copy the book of Hebrews for you!! Get out your own bibles and read.

I agree, all things have come to pass for the Harvest.

There is no mistake it was all for Good and will be for his Glory.

We are without excuse since we have the benefit of reading trials and errors of people in times of Old.

Glory to Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#30
The fault spoken of here probably refers to Heb.8:7, read from verse 6:
Heb.8

[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
But in the next verse we find where the fault laid:

[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Anyway, this is an interesting scripture that needs a closer look. It does seem to show the difference between conditional and unconditional covenants.

Note that the word "covenant" in verse 7 appears to have been added to the greek text.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#31
Do you care to elaborate a little on how "the old covenant was based upon faulty promises"? What was "faulty" with the promises?

That the people were faulty I am well aware of.

Israel said this
Exodus 19:8
(8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This promise made by Israel was quickly broken when they worshiped the golden calf. This is the faulty promise.

 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#32
Israel said this
Exodus 19:8
(8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This promise made by Israel was quickly broken when they worshiped the golden calf. This is the faulty promise.

Yes, their promise/s. Indeed. Not the promises of God. Agree?
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#33
Yes, their promise/s. Indeed. Not the promises of God. Agree?
The promises made to Abraham was based on the promises of God
Genesis 12:2-3
(2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
(3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

These promises made to Abraham was based upon the sure word of God. There was nothing for Abraham to do to earn it and we become part of the promise to Abraham by belonging to Christ.
Galatians 3:29
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The new covenant is also based upon the promises of God
Hebrews 10:16-17
(16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

To belong to both the covenant to Abraham and the new covenant we need to belong to Christ.

 
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#34
Guys the ten commandments are the character of God. they are from eternity to eternity. they are as unchangeable as God. they are the foundation of Gods government.

They point out sin.
They point out righteousness.

they can not be kept unless divine love is in the heart. Love fulfils the law, it does not replace the law.

The Ten Commandments themselves do seem to be the point of much debate don't they?
It has been much quoted in this debate

This is the new covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds

The above means that we no longer need the written law(which includes the Ten Commandments) for the good and Holy laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds, which means that in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live, the battle is flesh agasinst Spirit. We must be careful not to suggest that faliure to obey the written law of the Ten Commandments means death, for if we do sin can do to each one of us what it did to Paul.

I agree BTW, only in love can we live as God would have us live and can the law He would have us keep be better followed in our lives. But we need no written law itself, for the letter kills but the spirit gives life
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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#35
[Laodicea; This promise made by Israel was quickly broken when they worshiped the golden calf. This is the faulty promise.
We need to remember that when they made the golden calf they thought it was as a representative of the one true God, it wasn't as an idol creating a God. They wanted to physically see God, and what they could make with their hands was not God.

NewCovenant said: The above means that we no longer need the written law(which includes the Ten Commandments) for the good and Holy laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds, which means that in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live, the battle is flesh agasinst Spirit. We must be careful not to suggest that faliure to obey the written law of the Ten Commandments means death, for if we do sin can do to each one of us what it did to Paul.
We DO need the laws that are written in our hearts also written in scripture. Humans are never given the power to erase any of scripture from God, and humans are to listen and learn from it.

When you say we must be careful not to say failure to obey means death, that statement needs to be understood in its fullness. It is true that we are saved from eternal death, not because we earn it through what we do, but by God's grace. After that we obey much as earthy children are to obey their parents. But God gives us limits about how disobedient we can be and still have His grace.

In Mark 3: 28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”(
 
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#36
We need to remember that when they made the golden calf they thought it was as a representative of the one true God, it wasn't as an idol creating a God. They wanted to physically see God, and what they could make with their hands was not God.



We DO need the laws that are written in our hearts also written in scripture. Humans are never given the power to erase any of scripture from God, and humans are to listen and learn from it.

When you say we must be careful not to say failure to obey means death, that statement needs to be understood in its fullness. It is true that we are saved from eternal death, not because we earn it through what we do, but by God's grace. After that we obey much as earthy children are to obey their parents. But God gives us limits about how disobedient we can be and still have His grace.

In Mark 3: 28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”(
Hi
In relation to Mark3:28 Jesus was speaking concerning people who he said had never known his Father, not saved people. Because the Pharisees said he healed people by Beelzebub and Christ healed by the Spirit in him he said b;lasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven
I don't understand why we would need the written laws of scripture if we have the law in our hearts God would have us keep.
If I looked at my neighbours wife lustfully my conscience, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit would tell me I have had unwholesome thoughgts towards the woman. I would not need to firstly remember 'Thou shalt not covet' the Spirit would simply convict me.
For myself I believe that when we are disobediant God loves us too much to let us contnue to destruction, therefore like the prodigal son he brings us to our senses by ensuring our disobediance brings us to misery and unhappiness and a willingness to come before him, humbled and repentant, chastened and more willing to bow the knee than we were previously.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#37
The main difference between the old & new covenants is that the old is external while the new is internal.
 
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#38
The main difference between the old & new covenants is that the old is external while the new is internal.
and of course another main difference is that the new covenant has some different commands than the old.

1Cr 14:37-38
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#39
Interesting question. lately I have been reading some of the posts on here regarding the 7th day Sabbath of The Lord God.

One of the main arguments that I see given is that it si part of the Old Covenant. well lets take a look at the Covenants.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Notice that the first promise to save man was given to Adam and eve. remember that covenant means promise. God promised that he would make a way of escape for humanity.
Hi, gotime,

Thanks for all of the work you have done here for us.
And if I may, there are a few things I would like to clarify for the sake of accuracy.

The first would be that a covenant is actually a contract.

And then secondly, when you look at it, there was really no covenant nor promise made to Adam and Eve in Ge 3:15.
There was only a judgment pronounced on the serpent, that the seed of the woman would crush his head, and the serpent would strike his heel.
So there was really no covenant established or instituted with Adam and Eve in Ge 3:15.

Gen 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Noah was then given the promise/Covenant. notice the word establish here, it means to confirm, continue to affirm. In other words it is not new with Noah it is a re-establishment of the old promise.
Well, actually, "establish" means to found, institute.

This is the first covenant instituted or established by God, and it is with all living things, not just mankind.

And when you look at it, you find that God's covenant never again to destroy the world by water, made with Noah and all living things on earth,
is not related to the judgment pronounced on the serpent in Ge 3:15 that the seed of the woman would crush him.

So there would be no continuation between them.

So God is saying that Noah will be the next person that God will continue the covenant through to all flesh. notice also that both to Adam and Eve the promise was concerning their "seed".
For the sake of accuracy, let's keep in mind this is not a continuation of a former covenant.
This is the first covenant that God had made, and it is with all living things, not just mankind.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Here again we find Abraham and here the promise is yet again made. and again it is concerning Abraham's seed. This covenant/promise is the same one given from the beginning.
Well, actually, this is the first covenant God made with a particular man and his seed.
It is not a continuation of the covenant with Noah and all living things, for its subject matter is not the same.
Nor is it a covenant with all mankind, as was Noah's, but only with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jacob's seed.

Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

I would like to notice some things here.

1: In verse 7 God says it shall be an everlasting covenant. Everlasting means perpetual, without end, does not stop. it is eternal.
This is God's second covenant with Abraham, and a continuation of the first covenant in Ge 15.
His first was an unconditional promise of land.
This was a conditional covenant to be Abraham's God and the God of his descendants.
The condition was total consecration to the Lord (As for me, v.4; As for you, v.9), as symbolized by circumcision.

2: who was the eternal Promise/covenant with? Answer: verse 7 again, with thee and Thy seed. so the covenant was with Abraham and his seed not just Abraham. who is His seed? Answer: verse 6 I will make Nations of thee. verse 5: for a Father of Many nations.

clearly here the covenant to Abraham was not just to Abraham but to his seed which was not just Israel but many nations. Some may say well there was Ishmael also who was a nation. but what does the bible tell us the seed of Abraham is?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If we are in Christ then we are the seed of Abraham. thus the covenant given to Abraham is also the covenant given to us through Jesus Christ. we are the seed of Abraham because we are in Jesus and Jesus is the true seed.

by the was notice why the covenant was made with Abraham.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

notice the promise to Isaac is the same "oath" that God gave Abraham. why because Abraham obeyed Gods voice, charge, commandments, statutes and laws.

so far the covenant to Adam and Eve has passed down through humanity to Isaac.
Okay, again for the sake of accuracy, let's keep in mind there was no covenant made to Adam and Eve,
Noah's covenant was made with all living things, not just mankind, and
God's two covenants with Abraham are the first covenants made with a particular man and his seed, and were not made with all mankind.

Important distinctions to keep in mind for correct understanding of God's covenants.

Now lets go down to Moses and Israel.

Exo 2:21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.
Exo 2:22 And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.
Exo 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exo 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exo 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

notice here that God has pity on his people in slavery to Egypt and verse 24 tells us that God remembered his covenant/promise with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. so now Gods actions in saving Israel has to do with the Same covenant with Abraham.

Listen to what God says to Moses at the burning bush:

Exo 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Exo 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
God recalls to them the covenant he made witih Abraham and his descendants to be their God in Ge 17.

God will Establish, confirm the same covenant/promise with them that he did Abraham. read verse 3.
In v.4 we find, "I established (past tense) my covenant with them."
God is referring to the covenant with Abraham of Ge 17 to be their God.

Let's keep in mind that "establish" is "to found, institute," it is not "to continue."
God established/founded/instituted an unconditional covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jacob's descendants to give them a land in Ge 15,
and then continued that covenant in Ge 17 with a second and conditional covenant to be their God, based on total consecration.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

now God makes the covenant clear that it is based on obedience to God. same reason we read that Abraham received the Covenant.
Yes, the Mosaic covenant was conditioned (if, then) on obedience, just as the Abrahamic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience in Ge 17.

The Mosaic (Sinaitic) covenant was a temporary addition (Ro 5:20; Gal 3:19) to the Abrahamic covenant, whose purpose was simply to reveal sin, and to reveal in shadows (Heb 10:1) the remedy for sin, whose reality would come in Christ in the New Testament (NT).

The Mosiac covenant was founded on the law. The law was the covenant, and the covenant was the law.
But the Mosaic covenant did not abrogate the Abrahamic covenant based on faith, to which it was added (Gal 3:17).

However, the people broke the Mosaic covenant in breaking the law, and God promised a "new" covenant in its stead (Jer 31:31).

Jesus instituted, establsihed, founded that "new" covenant in his blood (Lk 22:20; Mt 26;28),
and we learn in Heb 8:13 that therefore the "old" (Sinaitic) covenant has been made obsolete and replaced.
We also learn in Heb 7:18-19 that the law on which it was based has likewise been set aside, and replaced with the law of Christ (1Co 9:21), which is love (Gal 5:6, 14; Jas 2:8) and which fulfills (performs) the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).

The "old" covenant has been made obsolete in favor of the New Covenant made in the blood of Chirst,
and the Mosaic Law on which the "old" covenant was founded has been set aside (Heb 7:18-19) in favor of the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), which is love and which fulfills (performs) the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

The people of God are now under the New Covenant made in the blood of Christ,
 
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Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
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#40
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Now we must remember:
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and theyare life.

The everlasting covenant includes dead flesh, from before the beginning. The flesh of God has always been cut off/dead in it's power to motivate The Spirit of God.

We see that God has always been a eunuch, even before the Holy/dead flesh of God came to this earth.

Mat_19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Remember that all things are possible, and the command to those able to recieve it, is to recieve it. Jesus/God recieved it before creation, and His flesh has always been circumsised, and will always be (especially from a spiritual perspective). He proved His flesh has been cut off from the beginning when the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and died for us.