Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[rauleetoe]

raul bud.
i held off on the wesly rant because every thread and post you had was a calvin rant, k?

and the stuff about wesley is true.

sorry..it just is

you'll be okay raul....it's just cranial keyboard embedment syndrome.
drink hot liquids...see you in the morning

According to who..an antinomian author who hates holiness who's book you bought..that supposedly documented Wesley's life?

 

[rauleetoe]

Jesus said hate is murder.
Wesley hated on a guy, plagiarized, stole from him, lied about him, forged his name on something and then tried to destroy his reputation.

plus he confessed he never loved God.
but anyways. he said he had a "warm feeling"

maybe he repented. i hope so.

let's worry about ppl who are still with us getting the Gospel right okay bud?
that may involve just preaching it from the texts and leaving the old fellas out of it.
love zone.

wait...serious?
what?

"Arminius, most definitely"???

hahahaha....why most definitely? holier? more deserving?
LOLOLOL

Not more deserving..more right in his living. This does matter..how we live..i do think you will agree. I never said that folks here do not matter who are lost..but according to calvinism..the non elect are a lost cause anyways..so let's all go home then..because God does not need us to reach the elect..they are his already!

 

[zone]

According to who..an antinomian author who hates holiness who's book you bought..that supposedly documented Wesley's life?

sigh....keep reading Wesley's own Journals.
look for his letter to his brother Charles.
or not.
i'm sick of this game raul.
if you like wesley GREAT!

if you think he wasnt a sinner, he definitely wasn't saved: Christ died for sinners.

 

[tribesman]

...This is what I have trouble with. If God is the one who awakens, then why doesn't He awaken everyone since it is His desire that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). This sounds like a contradiction to me...

If you read carefully enough in the scriptures you will find that words like "all", "everyone" and "the world" does not always mean literally all-men-everywhere-on-earth-that-ever-lived-and-ever-will-live. There are many specific addresses in the Bible that only applies to either the covenant community or certain individuals. These can not easily be taken as universal addresses.

 

[rauleetoe]

If you read carefully enough in the scriptures you will find that words like "all", "everyone" and "the world" does not always mean literally all-men-everywhere-on-earth-that-ever-lived-and-ever-will-live. There are many specific addresses in the Bible that only applies to either the covenant community or certain individuals. These can not easily be taken as universal addresses.

So all does not mean all, and the world means elect? Why did it not be then written this way..
For God so loved the Elect that he gave his only son, that whosoever was predetermined to be elect would not perish but be forordained to everlasting life..For God did not send his son to condemn the elect but through him the elect would be predetermined to be saved.
John3:16-17 Reformed Calvinist Version.

yea..sorry..

 

[Abiding]

Well history proves this..I do not recall Wesley killing anybody..Yes he denied some woman he had a crush on who married another man from having communion and spoke about her 'sins' publically..from what i read..but this does not deny that he was not a believer.
Luther was a bit anti semetic..Calvin killed at least one man directly(Serventus) and boasted about it,was commended for it by other 'christians'..Augustine while heralded as an intelligent man, as one young reform poster referred to him, was also flawed. Now I do hope I see them all in heaven..Wesley I am sure is there..Arminius, most definitely..the other three? I will be quite relieved to see them there, albeit surprised..

You never know maybe Luther and Calvin will be in hell with Moses and David and a long list of others,
i think i see your point. So:

Take your pick.




..............

 

[rauleetoe]

sigh....keep reading Wesley's own Journals.
look for his letter to his brother Charles.
or not.
i'm sick of this game raul.
if you like wesley GREAT!

if you think he wasnt a sinner, he definitely wasn't saved: Christ died for sinners.

And if you keep on practicing sin, as a lifestyle..according to 1 John 3 then you contradict yourself. John 8 clearly shows Jesus telling the woman caught in adultery..go and sin no more! What part of that do you not grasp?!
It means repent..change your life!
No one is seeking to play a game, but when you clearly stated you were anti Wesley I could not see whatever you said regarding him not be tainted with an agenda..sorry Zone.

 

[zone]

And if you keep on practicing sin, as a lifestyle..according to 1 John 3 then you contradict yourself. John 8 clearly shows Jesus telling the woman caught in adultery..go and sin no more! What part of that do you not grasp?!
It means repent..change your life!
No one is seeking to play a game, but when you clearly stated you were anti Wesley I could not see whatever you said regarding him not be tainted with an agenda..sorry Zone.

WESLEY WAS A SINNER RAUL

okay?

if he wasn't he was the only one besides Jesus.

get a grip man.

really.....stop....you need a new hobby. and new vocabulary.

wesleyanism just wriggles with pleasure over words like antinomianism....you don't even know what that means!

AGAINST THE LAW! - Reformed and Lutherans uphold and maintain the HIGHEST VIEW of the LAW! < that's how we know what SIN IS.

that's why we confess when we fail....GO BACK AND READ THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT - HOW YOU DOING?

good nite bud. really....i like talking to you, but let's find another subject (???)

 

[rauleetoe]

WESLEY WAS A SINNER RAUL

okay?

if he wasn't he was the only one besides Jesus.

get a grip man.

really.....stop....you need a new hobby. and new vocabulary.

wesleyanism just wriggles with pleasure over words like antinomianism....you don't even know what that means!

AGAINST THE LAW! - Reformed and Lutherans uphold and maintain the HIGHEST VIEW of the LAW! < that's how we know what SIN IS.

that's why we confess when we fail....GO BACK AND READ THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT - HOW YOU DOING?

good nite bud. really....i like talking to you, but let's find another subject (???)

like or 'liked' talking to me..
I honestly do not recall hearing Wesley being a sinner..except on here, after all..it is calvinist chat

anyhoot..
Perhaps you can speak for Lutherans..you are one,after all..in the truest sense.
But for calvinists, you may be defending them a bit much..perhaps you have met wonderfull ones..i literally have met like 2 pleasant calvinists, maybe three in real life..the rest live like the devil monday through saturday and their theology is their agenda regarding all things.

 

[zone]

His Judgement is only righteous and Just if all men truly have no excuse Uncle..meaning they truly rejected Christ on their own accord..then and only then is God truly good, and his reputation as Holy stands,and his loving character is truly bestowed. This is why I reject calvinism.

hey this is dangerous ground my friend.
who are you to say what the Potter may and may not do?
is He bound by ANYTHING to do with us?
who are you to say what GOOD is when it comes to the I AM?

 

[Fat]

Why is it that free willers never can find the will to refrain from sin? Or maybe there is someone out there who can say they've never sinned since their salvation.

Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.

 

[psychomom]

Ok, so we are all robots...nice...

I do 'hear' everything you say, and I appreciate it, too.

but, you know, I am surprised to learn (about myself) that if, when we go Home,
I discover I was a 'robot', in any sense at all, I'm okay with that.

It will be so humbling and wonderful to be there,
I can't imagine caring about anything else. &#9829;
I hear people talking of rewards (not you ), but what are they for but to throw at the feet of the Savior?
(where they belong)

love,
ellie

 

[psychomom]

Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.

.... ....

 

[tribesman]

Why is it that free willers never can find the will to refrain from sin? Or maybe there is someone out there who can say they've never sinned since their salvation.

These people have to redefine what sin is, chop it up in different "parts" and ignore the biblical sin concept so that they can imagine and trick themselves that they are literally sin-free. There's really no other way around it than this. It is a deadly doing however, since it practically means excusing and justifying sin. Hypocrisy (which is a sin) it is too. The leaven of pharisaism.

1John.1

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[rauleetoe]

hey this is dangerous ground my friend.
who are you to say what the Potter may and may not do?
is He bound by ANYTHING to do with us?
who are you to say what GOOD is when it comes to the I AM?

typical reply from a calvinist id expect that..yet you say you are not one...yet it still does not get God off the hook for being responsible for being the author of sin..and the danger zone, is that you must conjur up new definitions for love,good,all,and world..as the calvinist must do.

 

[rauleetoe]

These people have to redefine what sin is, chop it up in different "parts" and ignore the biblical sin concept so that they can imagine and trick themselves that they are literally sin-free. There's really no other way around it than this. It is a deadly doing however, since it practically means excusing and justifying sin. Hypocrisy (which is a sin) it is too. The leaven of pharisaism.

The person who points to election/selection/foreordination as the proof of their salvation is in more danger of being a pharisee and of justifying sin. Never have I heard any true classical arminian justify sin, if anything they abhor it and turn away from it. The Calvinists that i have met however, do still identify themselves as 'sinners' (does this mean they are flat out admitting to practicing sin? One must wonder) The only ones i see redefining words here are the hyper monergists and calvinists..
All does not really mean all, World does not really mean that, it means elect..and Love does not mean Love, and in the same breath they say, God is still good even if according to Calvinism he has chosen to 'pass over some' and not give them the ability to accept him for no apparent reason yet he is still good. So who is the guilty party of redefining what words mean again? Not the Classical Arminian..the one who makes true repentance secondary to 'election' does..

 

[zone]

typical reply from a calvinist id expect that..yet you say you are not one...yet it still does not get God off the hook for being responsible for being the author of sin..and the danger zone, is that you must conjur up new definitions for love,good,all,and world..as the calvinist must do.

good morning raul.
henceforth i will use the terms monergist and synergist.
we are getting nowhere with the other thing.
i like talking to you, but i need to see if you have murder in your heart toward calvinists (hatred and bitterness), or if you can talk about things from any other angle.

SCENARIO:

we have a baby boy born into an Islamic family; who grows up to be a man; who is faithful and obedient to his family; obeys the strict laws of Islam (no porn, no t.v., drugs, booze, profanity, premartial sex, no usury, etc - he is actually living a more morally strict life than b[m]illions of others); obeys the laws of his land; prays 5 times a day; he is monotheistic; he studies his religious texts faithfully. he believes in sin, he knows he has sin; he knows he must fight sin; he confesses his failures and pleads to allah for mercy.

....he has heard of Christianity, clearly...he knows of Jesus as a prophet, and reveres him as such. he does not believe Jesus was the Son of God. he does not believe Jesus was crucified for his sins. he has been instructed from a youth in all he believes. he believes if he is pleasing in all he does, allah might say he he is worthy of paradise.

he grows to be an old man and dies....that man was not reached personally by Christian missionaries.

PAUSE before continuing

does this scenario lack anything?
is it plausible so far?

zone

 

[zone]

The person who points to election/selection/foreordination as the proof of their salvation is in more danger of being a pharisee and of justifying sin.

hi raul.
do you believe God foresaw that you would choose Him and He called you because of that?
do you believe God saw that you would eventually sin less than other men, and He called you for that reason?
zone

(if you bring up any reformers or other names, i won't reply)

 

[rauleetoe]

good morning raul.
henceforth i will use the terms monergist and synergist.
we are getting nowhere with the other thing.
i like talking to you, but i need to see if you have murder in your heart toward calvinists (hatred and bitterness), or if you can talk about things from any other angle.

SCENARIO:

we have a baby boy born into an Islamic family; who grows up to be a man; who is faithful and obedient to his family; obeys the strict laws of Islam (no porn, no t.v., drugs, booze, profanity, premartial sex, no usury, etc - he is actually living a more morally strict life than b[m]illions of others); obeys the laws of his land; prays 5 times a day; he is monotheistic; he studies his religious texts faithfully. he believes in sin, he knows he has sin; he knows he must fight sin; he confesses his failures and pleads to allah for mercy.

....he has heard of Christianity, clearly...he knows of Jesus as a prophet, and reveres him as such. he does not believe Jesus was the Son of God. he does not believe Jesus was crucified for his sins. he has been instructed from a youth in all he believes. he believes if he is pleasing in all he does, allah might say he he is worthy of paradise.

he grows to be an old man and dies....that man was not reached personally by Christian missionaries.

PAUSE before continuing

does this scenario lack anything?
is it plausible so far?

zone

I do not have murder in my heart toward anyone..I hate how God is painted and is seen as Unholy and not good according to Calvinism. I have attempted to befriend calvinists, and have met some nice ones..unfortunately I had no way of contacting them after the 2 times i met them.
As far as your trick question..I do not believe(and i really do not care what your take is if he is going to hell or not) that a man who has not heard the gospel is responsible. Maybe according to some he is. I cannot see how he could be responsible, once you know of the Law..then you are responsible. When you heard the message, a response of accepting or rejecting is required.
But really, if you are a not a Calvinist..why do you so vehemently defend them? You defend them better than most 'true' or blatant ones on here. As far as bitterness towards others, I recall you taking innecessant jabs at Methodists every other post. I mean, if you do not hate them..why must you generalize and lump them all there. Granted I know Lutherans tend to be theological opponents of all methodists from my take of what i heard another Lutheran who says they are not Lutheran post on here, I sense the vitriol.

 

[zone]

I do not have murder in my heart toward anyone..I hate how God is painted and is seen as Unholy and not good according to Calvinism. I have attempted to befriend calvinists, and have met some nice ones..unfortunately I had no way of contacting them after the 2 times i met them.
As far as your trick question..I do not believe(and i really do not care what your take is if he is going to hell or not) that a man who has not heard the gospel is responsible. Maybe according to some he is. I cannot see how he could be responsible, once you know of the Law..then you are responsible. When you heard the message, a response of accepting or rejecting is required.
But really, if you are a not a Calvinist..why do you so vehemently defend them? You defend them better than most 'true' or blatant ones on here. As far as bitterness towards others, I recall you taking innecessant jabs at Methodists every other post. I mean, if you do not hate them..why must you generalize and lump them all there. Granted I know Lutherans tend to be theological opponents of all methodists from my take of what i heard another Lutheran who says they are not Lutheran post on here, I sense the vitriol.

okay.
you are like Saul toward Damascus concerning a certain branch of Christianity.
i believe you are sinning in that, and i'm not going to contribute any more.
pm me if you want to talk more, or if you want to discuss any other topic.
love you
zone