Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

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endurance

Guest
#81
#81
I understand what"turn away" means,a definition is not necessary.

This does not answer my question"how does one become"un-saved"?
 
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endurance

Guest
#82
#82
Yes,exactly,and he also tossed the"money changers"out of the temple.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#83
Jan 11, 2013
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#83
endurance said:
I understand what"turn away" means,a definition is not necessary.

This does not answer my question"how does one become"un-saved"?
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If you are asking about apostasy then renouncing God and denying his existence would do it.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84
#84
PS said:
If you are asking about apostasy then renouncing God and denying his existence would do it.
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That would make you an antichrist. what does john say about them?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#85
Jan 11, 2013
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#85
eternally-gratefull said:
That would make you an antichrist. what does john say about them?
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That would make them an apostate which is described as "the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#86
#86
PS said:
That would make them an apostate which is described as "the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it."
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Negative. A person who claimed to be a part of the church, and leaves the church denying Christ is an anti Christ.

John makes it clear. They departed, but they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left.

It does not matter if they were baptized or not. Many non believers have been baptized, It did not save them.
 
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Elin

Banned
#87
Jan 19, 2013
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#87
Bookends said:
some faith is real, some isn't. Some are just interested in what's on the Master's table, and not the Master Himself. pseudo faith vs real faith...I don't know how else to explain but its a faith comes from deep within the heart, inner being, and not just an outward appearance.
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It's the faith of rebirth.

Only the born again have genuine faith.
 
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Elin

Banned
#88
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#88
endurance said:
I understand what"turn away" means,a definition is not necessary.

This does not answer my question"how does one become"un-saved"?
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You don't become "un-saved."

If you leave, it shows you never had genuine faith and were not really saved in the first place.
 
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Elin

Banned
#89
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#89
PS said:
That would make them an apostate which is described as "the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it."
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Not all those who profess faith actually possess (genuine) faith.
 
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Elin

Banned
#90
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#90
eternally-gratefull said:

Negative. A person who claimed to be a part of the church, and leaves the church denying Christ is an anti Christ.

John makes it clear. They departed, but they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left.

It does not matter if they were baptized or not. Many non believers have been baptized, It did not save them.
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John is saying that they professed faith, but their leaving shows that they did not possess (genuine) faith.
 
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endurance

Guest
#91
#91
I agree,one cannot become"un-saved",because they were never to be saved in the first place.Grace is given to the believer by his faith,therefore,anyone who isn't to be saved,never had faith.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#92
Oct 24, 2012
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#92
mark54 said:
I have never personally in the flesh met a Christian who has professed to be perfect in the flesh. Some have given the 'appearance' of it in church, but none have publically professed it, and I have spent many years in church
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I have not said I am perfect in the flesh, for I am not I said as long as I am dead to flesh sin no longer has control for sin takes control by the commandment and I am dead to the Law, and if one is dead in the flesh even though the flesh is back alive it is by the Holy Ghost and there is no sin in the Spirit. Sorry you have mis interpreted. Flesh can never please God and all sin is condemed to the flesh. We are alive by the Spirit of God, I no longer live in the flesh just as Paul described many times in his epistles
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#93
Oct 24, 2012
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#93
Bookends said:
So your in the spirit 24/7 365 days a year, for the rest of your life? Even the apostle John didn't see himself in the Spirit all the time (debatable). I mean there is a difference between indwelling and infilling of the HS. Hey I'm happy for you, I pray you never have a set back, it may be devastating to you.

Did you give up all worldly things? really ALL?
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I did not say that either, I do not know the future brother, I know to live one day at a time, and take no thought of tommorrow, the past is gone, the future is not here yet, so therefore Ilive in the present with no expectations which keeps the present a present from God called Life forever. Take no thought of tomorrow for there is more than enough evil all around you for today thus take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ and focus on whatever is good and the only one good is God the Father
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#94
Oct 24, 2012
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#94
endurance said:
The discussion is about "once saved,always saved".There isn't any question as to whether a Christian can turn away or not.and I agree that it is possible and does happen.

Pertaining to a"theology",if I have one,then it is was the Bible says,nothing else.I again ask the question,how can one become,un-saved"?Can anyone show a Bible quote/s that support this being possible?
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no! I know I will not turn back after seeing the truth in it's entirety and there others that see this as well. If one fall away then from what I see theywere never Father'stop begin with, they only tasted, felt, talked, looked like they walked itbut never gave up there flesh flesh does masquerade real well as being good
 
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endurance

Guest
#95
#95
eternally-gratefull said:

Negative. A person who claimed to be a part of the church, and leaves the church denying Christ is an anti Christ.

John makes it clear. They departed, but they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left.

It does not matter if they were baptized or not. Many non believers have been baptized, It did not save them.
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Where does John say this?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#96
#96
endurance said:
Where does John say this?
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[SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either;

Evidently at one time, they claimed to be saved, and now have departed. Now rejecting Christ.

 
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endurance

Guest
#97
#97
eternally-gratefull said:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either;

Evidently at one time, they claimed to be saved, and now have departed. Now rejecting Christ.

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Thank you,I am reading the KJV,the wording is different,it was easier to ask you to find it,rather than my searching endlessly.

I believe John was originally talking about the,anti-Christs,who were among Christians,that were never believers,they only professed to be....1Cor Chap 11,verse 19.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
#98
#98
rachelsedge said:
I don't know if it's so much that it's not once-saved-always-saved, but rather more like the parable of the seeds. Many of the seeds do land somewhere and grow, but it's not for long. Some don't have deep roots, some are choked by the world, and yet others don't even make it to the dirt.

I'm a bit confused which side you're arguing for. You are against once-saved-always-saved, but then you say this:



If you think that you can lose your salvation, then wouldn't that fear be rational?

For those souls who we are "losing in church every year", I would say that they were never had in the first place; much like the seeds in the parable.
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While that may be possible for some, only God knows..and I would think saying they left church because they never were of the faith(meaning every single one of those who left,this pertains to them) is a bit of a broad blanket statement. Having said all this..I will appeal that there are scriptures in romans 11:16-22,1 timothy 4:1,Hebrews 10:26-30,hebrews6:4-8,hebrews3:14,2 timothy4:4..are several scriptures that prove that apostasy is possible. My issue with an adherance to what many call here OSAS aka eternal security is that it creates a spiritual sluggard, lazy sunday christians who are more interested in being confessional then actually repenting and changing their lives. Why not go the extreme of OSAS and keep on sinning? I say this because i have met many who adhere to OSAS and do not have any fruit in their lives,and downplay the importance of repentance. Sin is made not a big deal too according to OSAS.
 
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Rock022

Banned
#99
Dec 5, 2012
885
5
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#99
endurance said:
I agree,one cannot become"un-saved",because they were never to be saved in the first place.Grace is given to the believer by his faith,therefore,anyone who isn't to be saved,never had faith.
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I am curious now. If a person who for years claim others are not saved and bring people to the church talks about a person can never become "un-saved" claims other people who left were not saved did not have faith enough and did not received God's grace, then just like that the person leaves the church. Now every one else says the same thing about him and are doing the same things he did when he was in the church.

I mean, how do you know if you are really saved or not? Many OSAS people have left the church. Then what? They are stil saved?

Please understand I am not being sarcastic at all. This is a genuine question I have because I have seen friends and family who have done this but live too far from me. I can't find the courage to ask them in such a sensitive issue.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#100
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#100
rauleetoe said:
While that may be possible for some, only God knows..and I would think saying they left church because they never were of the faith(meaning every single one of those who left,this pertains to them) is a bit of a broad blanket statement. Having said all this..I will appeal that there are scriptures in romans 11:16-22,1 timothy 4:1,Hebrews 10:26-30,hebrews6:4-8,hebrews3:14,2 timothy4:4..are several scriptures that prove that apostasy is possible. My issue with an adherance to what many call here OSAS aka eternal security is that it creates a spiritual sluggard, lazy sunday christians who are more interested in being confessional then actually repenting and changing their lives. Why not go the extreme of OSAS and keep on sinning? I say this because i have met many who adhere to OSAS and do not have any fruit in their lives,and downplay the importance of repentance. Sin is made not a big deal too according to OSAS.
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Eternal security doesn't cause those things that you say. Eternal security is the cause for a person being spiritual in the first place. You can't be spiritual without it.

What your real issue is with eternal security is that you can't guilt the person that believes it into your works based salvation model. Its the same with all legalists/workers.

How come they aren't working as hard as you? How come they are not trying to be as righteous as you? Why are they so "lazy" while you are so diligent?

You can't have the peace that passes all understanding or the joy of the Lord if you are busy working performing the law.
 
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