John 6:37

weakness · Jan 28, 2013

we think about Israel coming out of Egypt.God choose all of them"all passed through the Red sea all were protected by the piller of fireand the pillerof smokeall ate manna in the wilderness all drank from that rock which was Christ ect. BUT,all entered not in because of unbelief ,they tempted God ,they wanted to return to Egypt. Why? because of unbelief There fore God said ye shall not enter my rest even though the works of god were clearly demonstrated to all and for all. we should beware lest we fall after their example of unbelief as some of them did.God choose all of them but by their OWN unbelief some entered not because of their free will chosen unbelief.

weakness · Jan 28, 2013

I think the scripture is clear that as much as lieth in us to live peaceably ,but major doctrinal disagreements ,as repetitious as they seem to be , especially by some with their one trick pony. I feel out of love to convince and by Gods word and grace give opportunity to grow and possibly be really be converted. But even Jesus and Paul taught .Im as god leads ready to do the same to deliver unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh and told the disciple to shake the dust off their feet.But every one as God leads them.

Cobus · Jan 28, 2013

Crossnote, NO! there is only ONE GROUP that Father does give to Jesus. Jesus said NOBODY can come to the Father except through HIM, but He also says... NOBODY COMES TO ME IF THE FATHER DOES NOT DRAW HIM....

That DRAW the Father does, what is that crossnote? Is it not THIS....
When we stray from the WAY (Jesus) what can bring us back? ONLY GOD CAN. And how does HE do that? Convincing us of our sin. And if we repent, TURN AROUND! We will get back in the WAY! You see crossnote, this is how God GIVES/DRAWS TO JESUS. And only the ones that TURNS AROUND will get back, the others will fall away completely!

So the ONE group God does turn back to Jesus, they are the ONE GROUP the FATHER gave the Son. ALL saved sinners were part of the LOST group at one stage, but AFTER God gave them to Jesus, HE TOOK THEM ALL THE WAY TO HOLINESS IN GOD! They are the ones that are PERFECT right here on earth. Not the ones on the WAY, the ones that completed the WAY.

They will produce fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold. They are the ones that mature and produce fruit. The others does not EVER produce fruit that goes to God's shed. Only the fruit-bearers will be in God's will. Even the ones that LOOKS like they are fruit will be sifted out and burnt, Only the REAL fruit will be gathered IN GOD!

psychomom · Jan 28, 2013

superdave5221 said:

Hey Pschomom,

Yes, I do struggle with it.

Because when you read the entire bible, there are numerous verses that would seem to suggest a choice. And yet, the author of this thread would ignore all of those, and suppose that his interpretation of one verse would supercede all of those.

The bible also suggests, again in many places, that the cause of evil and suffering in the world is sin. Does God will us to sin? And then, after He wills us to sin, He requires that we repent of that sin?

It is also clear that the reason that anyone will go to hell is because they lack righteousness. Righteousness is lacking because we have broken the Law. And since EVERYONE has broken the Law, no one is good, except God. Therefore, we are required to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ to cover our sins so that we can enter the kingdom of God. Is it really so easy to conclude that Jesus only died for the elect? For if Jesus died for All people, and certainly the language in John which says that Jesus came to save the world (everyone) seems to include everyone. And if Jesus did indeed die for everyone, then everyone should be saved, UNLESS, there is some kind of requirement, (choice, or repentence) involved.

Furthermore, are we to believe that our prayers for the lost are useless and of no effect? Should I pray for a friend's salvation if that salvation, or lack thereof, has already been determined? If God is making his election before the beginning of time, is He not considering any free choices in the future, INCLUDING the prayers of saints appealing for lost souls? Should we not pray for someone's salvation because someone in this site will surely see that as a "work"? Should I have in my heart this zeal to go out and evangelize, as commanded by Jesus, if my efforts are useless?

Yes, I do find it a difficult concept. And so did many great men and women throughout the centuries who were not in their spiritual youth.

And yet, there are many in this site, who with one sentence, or one verse, can explain everything!

I hear you, Dave.
and I love you.

blessings,
ellie

Elin · Jan 28, 2013

PS said:

Unless you are lying flat on your back, obedience to any law, including God's, will require exertion of energy; i.e., effort.

That is the effort Paul denies is in anyway connected to God's granting of mercy (salvation from judgment on their). (Ro 9:16)

Elin · Jan 28, 2013

Abiding said:

Elin said:

you added "judicially to my comment. so you can answer your own question.

Okay, I retract "judicially."

The answer to your question regarding the "is why" of 2Co 4:4 remains, in my last statement above.

Abiding · Jan 28, 2013

Elin said:

Well i can agree on that. The last statement part. Not so much your take on it tho.
But Hey. Did i say welcome to cc forums yet?

PS · Jan 28, 2013

Elin said:

"Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

This is why you were wrong to say receiving God's gifts requires effort.

Stephen63 · Jan 28, 2013

crossnote said:

John 6:65 Nasb And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

What motivates the Father to grant people to come to Christ?
2 Peter 3:9 Nas The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

John 7:37-39 Nas Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Revelation 22:17 Nas The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

I have great difficulty understanding why people leave out this verse when talking about how God chooses people to come to Christ. It makes me wonder if they have motives contrary to God.

John 3:16 Nas "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus only said what he heard his Father say, and did what he saw his Father do. So whatever Jesus says, the Father has already said it.

John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

There are so many "anyones", "whoevers", and "whosoever wills" being totally overlooked. It makes one wonder if it's on purpose.

Stephen63 · Jan 28, 2013

I had to put four spaces between the quote and my statement to get this thing to work. That one post took me almost 2 hours because of that.

Elin · Jan 28, 2013

PS said:

Elin said:

"Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

This is why you were wrong to say receiving God's gifts requires effort.

What happened to "It depends on our obedience"?

PS · Jan 29, 2013

Elin said:

You were disobedient and ran down a blind alley called effort, which is sheer reformed rubbish.

Elin · Jan 29, 2013

PS said:

Non-responsive.

PS · Jan 29, 2013

Elin said:

We were talking about obedience and you disagreed because you said obedience required effort. Well hard cheese, being a Christian requires commitment and obedience and that requires effort.

crossnote · Jan 29, 2013

PS said:

being a christian, yes. But what about becoming a Christian?

PS · Jan 29, 2013

crossnote said:

This is where we came in, we are told to "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved" and the reply came back, "that requires effort!"

crossnote · Jan 29, 2013

equally others leave out verses that join words like 'election', 'predestinates', 'foreordains', potter-clay analogies etc.

PS · Jan 29, 2013

crossnote said:

That is not an answer. All are predestined for salvation, those who accept are the elect and this has been foreordained from the foundation of the earth.

If accepting salvation requires work on our part when Jesus has done all the work for us, then firstly if you cannot be bothered to repent and accept the free-gift offered to you, then I worry for peoples salvation

Secondly non-acceptance of a gift is equivalent to rejecting the gift of God and again I worry for peoples salvation.

Thirdly we are told to repent and believe and quibbling about a little bit of effort (if it even is) means you are making the Word of God to non-effect and probably peoples salvation to non-effect as well.

Fourthly if people believe they have been 'zapped' then they need to return to the word of God and have a change of heart.

Elin · Jan 29, 2013

PS said:

Hard cheese. . .good one.

Agreed. Obedience requires effort.

And Jesus' NT revelation (Heb 1:1-2) states that God's granting of mercy (salvation from his judgment/punishment on our sin)
does not depend on effort; i.e., does not depend on obedience. . .nor desire for it (Ro 9:16).

Jesus' NT revelation states that it is a gift, by grace through faith, not by works (of obedience),
so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9).

I assume you agree that grace is 100% unmerited, that I did absolutely nothing to deserve or earn it,
that God is in no way beholden to me for anything I have done, including obedience.

Because if I had done anything for which God responded with his gift of grace,
then I could boast to my unbelieving brother that he is not saved because he didn't do what I did.

Those are the Biblical facts of Ro 9:16 and Eph 2:8-9 that we have to reckon with.

PS · Jan 29, 2013

Elin said:

Salvation requires we believe in God, repent of our sins and ACCEPT the free gift of salvation given by the Grace of God.

You omit your part of the covenant and one fine day you will hear the words "depart from me because I never knew you."

John 6:37

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