God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
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M
Good questions.
I think, God always has a choice. He could in fact say 'to hell with you', but instead, 'i love you' seems to fit his character a lot better than that.
The great thing about God is, his choice is always the right one. It's the best thing to do. The most righteous avenue to take. The most high purpose. And that is something we can all aspire to respect.
I believe God, as shown in Jesus, does forgive the sinner. He does give to the needy. He does love more than he is 'bound to' (if God is really 'bound' to anything). He keeps his promises, I think is a better analysis than 'has no choice'.
God wills his promises to be kept.
I think, God always has a choice. He could in fact say 'to hell with you', but instead, 'i love you' seems to fit his character a lot better than that.
The great thing about God is, his choice is always the right one. It's the best thing to do. The most righteous avenue to take. The most high purpose. And that is something we can all aspire to respect.
I believe God, as shown in Jesus, does forgive the sinner. He does give to the needy. He does love more than he is 'bound to' (if God is really 'bound' to anything). He keeps his promises, I think is a better analysis than 'has no choice'.
God wills his promises to be kept.
Why did Jesus command His disciples to spread the gospel? (If every soul He chose would be saved anyway?)
Because it is the good news.
In it is the power to believe unto salvation.
Jesus said "I go to the Father", and "greater works than these will you do".
The works are salvation - spreading the gospel to lost nations, not healing the sick or raising the dead.
The Holy Spirit has everything to do with it.
Can a cannibal be saved? (Yes)
Can a cannibal be saved without the hearing of the gospel with the unction of the Holy Spirit
working on his soul, helping him to receive it? (Absolutely not)
All I am trying to say is that it is God's freewill to save every soul.
It is man's freewill to reject it.
BUT........(and this is all I am saying), who can resist His immutable grace?
And where does the "vessels fitted unto wrath" come in?
I believe, (and it is all a matter of faith), that if God chooses someone they will be chosen.
"For all those that You have given Me I have not lost one". - (Except the son of perdition that the scripture will be fulfilled)
God's election is His freewill, and man's freewill is his 'election'.
Who's election will stand?
Many religious elect themselves.(See pharisee)
So the apostle said - "make your election sure".
Meaning, hold fast to what you have learned.
Paul knew he was speaking to some who would depart from the faith because he said as much
to the ephesians when he departed from them. - (But then, he called those who would depart 'wolves' - as though they already were.)
Because it is the good news.
In it is the power to believe unto salvation.
Jesus said "I go to the Father", and "greater works than these will you do".
The works are salvation - spreading the gospel to lost nations, not healing the sick or raising the dead.
The Holy Spirit has everything to do with it.
Can a cannibal be saved? (Yes)
Can a cannibal be saved without the hearing of the gospel with the unction of the Holy Spirit
working on his soul, helping him to receive it? (Absolutely not)
All I am trying to say is that it is God's freewill to save every soul.
It is man's freewill to reject it.
BUT........(and this is all I am saying), who can resist His immutable grace?
And where does the "vessels fitted unto wrath" come in?
I believe, (and it is all a matter of faith), that if God chooses someone they will be chosen.
"For all those that You have given Me I have not lost one". - (Except the son of perdition that the scripture will be fulfilled)
God's election is His freewill, and man's freewill is his 'election'.
Who's election will stand?
Many religious elect themselves.(See pharisee)
So the apostle said - "make your election sure".
Meaning, hold fast to what you have learned.
Paul knew he was speaking to some who would depart from the faith because he said as much
to the ephesians when he departed from them. - (But then, he called those who would depart 'wolves' - as though they already were.)
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A
all i see on your list thats a dispute these days are:
BUT........(and this is all I am saying), who can resist His immutable grace?
And where does the "vessels fitted unto wrath" come in?
Acts 7:[SUP]51 [/SUP]“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God was patient and longsufferring with these vessels. Theres plenty in the bible that shows
before He showed His wrath...there sin was full.
BUT........(and this is all I am saying), who can resist His immutable grace?
And where does the "vessels fitted unto wrath" come in?
Acts 7:[SUP]51 [/SUP]“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God was patient and longsufferring with these vessels. Theres plenty in the bible that shows
before He showed His wrath...there sin was full.
The address of Stephen to those religious leaders who were about to kill him is hardly an argument.
He was addressing the spiritually proud. - (Those who were comforted in their own religious conceits.)
Hardly a argument for free will,.....as their hearts were hardened to the truth by their own religion.
Read Romans 11. - (I have already given my commentary to it in a post way back on this thread).
- Please look it up and do the same.
He was addressing the spiritually proud. - (Those who were comforted in their own religious conceits.)
Hardly a argument for free will,.....as their hearts were hardened to the truth by their own religion.
Read Romans 11. - (I have already given my commentary to it in a post way back on this thread).
- Please look it up and do the same.
E
They hardened their hearts. They chose religion over truth. Thus they freely chose to reject the gospel. How can you say this is not a free will choice. I think romans 1 and eph 4 shows it was free will. they knew the truth, they chose to hid it (harden) because they thought their religion saved them. Thus they did not need Christ.
In the light of scriptures like this, it would seem that way.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
{I will repost it for simplification purposes:}
The verses for God's freewill vs. man's self appointment:Romans 9:4-33 KJV
(My commentaries in red)
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.(By miraculous divine intervention, not of flesh...it could never be accounted as something that would naturally occur: an 100 year old man seeding a ninety year old woman to the giving of birth....here we have Abraham, the father of faith siring a child by a ninety year old wife? - - - Me thinks faith might be an actual gift - Jacob)
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Mercy to do what? Where is that precious mercy appointed to?)
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. - (See the omnipotence? ....Who sees the omnipotence?)
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; - (More religious affectation by the one's with the word taking the place of God's gift to those who did not have the Word, but on whom He showed mercy)
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - (This is Jesus and the vast majority of jews, -to whom was given the law of God; don't believe in Him to this day)
The verses for God's freewill vs. man's self appointment:Romans 9:4-33 KJV
(My commentaries in red)
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.(By miraculous divine intervention, not of flesh...it could never be accounted as something that would naturally occur: an 100 year old man seeding a ninety year old woman to the giving of birth....here we have Abraham, the father of faith siring a child by a ninety year old wife? - - - Me thinks faith might be an actual gift - Jacob)
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Mercy to do what? Where is that precious mercy appointed to?)
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. - (See the omnipotence? ....Who sees the omnipotence?)
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; - (More religious affectation by the one's with the word taking the place of God's gift to those who did not have the Word, but on whom He showed mercy)
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - (This is Jesus and the vast majority of jews, -to whom was given the law of God; don't believe in Him to this day)
E
My friend you are the one who is stuck in your dogma. I am just literally translating it. Esau NEVER SERVED jacob.. so why don;t you do what you asked me and get out of your dogma.. It is ridiculous to state something which is scriptural found to not be true. and what you say supports your argument does not. because it is based on something which never happened!
1. Jacob never was served by Esau
2. Esau never called Jacob lord. in Fact Jacob called Esau Lord
3. Jacob was shown to have MANY Sins. Hi whole life was full of tricking people into getting what he wanted.
I can go on and on and on.
So what you call a rediculous question is not rediculous at all. Your dogma states what my question asked. Yet it is not true. So why did you skirt my question and not answer it number 1. And the answer you did give was a programed response (attack ad hominem)??
1. Jacob never was served by Esau
2. Esau never called Jacob lord. in Fact Jacob called Esau Lord
3. Jacob was shown to have MANY Sins. Hi whole life was full of tricking people into getting what he wanted.
I can go on and on and on.
So what you call a rediculous question is not rediculous at all. Your dogma states what my question asked. Yet it is not true. So why did you skirt my question and not answer it number 1. And the answer you did give was a programed response (attack ad hominem)??
This is a statement by a man; - (wishing his offspring to be saved.)
It hardly represents God's formative nature in His development of the soul of mankind.
For instance, - He who sins will have his sin requited back to him, and not the son or daughter of the sinner.
God is quite clear about this, need I list you scriptural references P.S.?
It hardly represents God's formative nature in His development of the soul of mankind.
For instance, - He who sins will have his sin requited back to him, and not the son or daughter of the sinner.
God is quite clear about this, need I list you scriptural references P.S.?
Thanks E.T., you made a great case for the fact that God alone chooses who He will.
I got stuck that Jacob never "actually" called Esau lord when he was sending groups of cattle and oxen to him(Esau); before they met.
Some might think this was an act of servile humility; - but I'll leave that up to you and the other readers of this thread to decide.
- In that
you are correct.
I got stuck that Jacob never "actually" called Esau lord when he was sending groups of cattle and oxen to him(Esau); before they met.
Some might think this was an act of servile humility; - but I'll leave that up to you and the other readers of this thread to decide.
- In that
you are correct.
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