Total Depravity vs. Freewill

BarlyGurl · Feb 1, 2013

See my rapist and extortioner mobster comment above... This is not how God operates. LOOK... this is how the GIFT works if you HAVE TO use the GIFT analogy. Jesus Gave HIS LIFE to save mankind... The gift is HIS live for a man's salvation... it happened 2000+ years ago... it is available to EVERYONE... but you have to be willing to recieve it on GOD'S TERMS. Say your friend buys an amazing present for you... but can't deliver it personally so they leave it at the police station for you to pick up and send you a note about your present and how to get it "DEAR Tribesmen, there is an amazing present waiting for you at the police station, bring this letter, photo identification and ask to speak to Sgt. BIG to claim it". Well If you never go to the police station or fail to talk to Sgt.BIG, bring photo ID, or the letter.... you aren't gonna get your present... that is pretty much how Salvation on GOD's terms works. Once you meet the terms for recieving the Gift... you have it in your possession... otherwise there is a gift waiting for you but you have failed to meet the terms to recieve it and therefore can claim NO benefit of possessing the Gift.

Abiding · Feb 1, 2013

tribesman said:

No i still dont see it yet.

Gods draws us and we respond. By the way none of this offends me.

Its the scripture that holds me back from your view. Not my emotions. Abraham was credited(justified)
by his believing that is what was required for him to receive Christs righteousness.
I still cant see how anyone can say that that means Abrahams justification wasnt fully
in Christs(atonement) alone. What is Romans 10:9-10 about? And according to you the order would be wrong
just as it would be wrong "as many as believed He gave "power" see? order is wrong as well
as in many verses throughout the gospels and epistles.

You say prevenient grace assumes that a sinner has ability

confused

. No!! its just the opposite.
Its Gods power given because of the fact man has no ability.

Im not saying that man can do anything by himself. Or that he saves himself.
I just dont agree God regenerates a man then he believes. It may be easier if i came back
or started a thread when i have time to provide the texts that hold me back from your view
which leaves out mans (God enabling)choice. Im aware there are many folks here that i love that will
advise me of my errors

Of course!! God can, and does, give the gift to whomever He pleases. The question is whether the bible states
who He offered the gift to.

Oh and as far as your statement that you, and many have shown me many times is not true
at all. You have to do more than just tell me what you believe or wont ever agree with, thats
no help at all. Not that you have to answer me.

Neither are wise cracks, or rude implications that come from experienced debating. Dont get me
wrong tho i do love a good insult and the whole your like a catholic thing.
But it just doesnt help me that much. See im not in any clubs yet so im not forced into
following any party line.

Lastly im becoming aware of your reasoning and how this doctrine is explained but not
even close to seeing it biblically outside a few tortured verses.

And if you dont feel like dealing with me...im fine with that.. Its my issue not yours.
And its only been lately that i decided to look into this more. And spend alot of time
studying it anyway. Why? when i heard for the hundreth time calvinists say TULIP "is"
the gospel and anyone that doesnt agree has another gospel, and another Jesus.

That got my attention. Along with other teachings that have grown out of Tulip.
ty

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

What scripture?

Where is the scripture that says that Abraham was required (your word) to receive anything from God?

All requirements for justification were fulfilled in the work and person of Christ alone. This is essential pauline gospel doctrine.

Why is it "wrong" order? Why cannot Rom.10:9-10 already assume that its regenerated people who are supposed to do what is spoken of?

What you says here is confusing when you boil down the issue to its conditional part. Sorry to say, but it is. Reading this I am less sure you actually know exactly what prevenient grace is or at least what it means in said respect.

You may read this article, it's recommended:

What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical? <-link

So what you are saying is that you believe that when a man chooses to act upon the prevenient grace he has received which has made him able to make that choice, then as a reward for that God regenerates him?

Dead persons usually don't know how to appreciate gifts. It's recommended they are made alive first.

No. What you are saying here is not true at all. I and others have many, many, many times pointed out that man is dead in his trespasses and sins and totally depraved. And you know this, so don't go down that road. OK? But then you might be looking for an explicit "literal" statement in the scriptures, you won't find that as little as you will find the word "trinity" in same, however, summarizing what the scriptures say in total the conclusion will not be hard to draw.

And this your input helps just how much?

Don't get you here. You have said recently you are a zero point calvinist, meaning no calvinist at all, yet you often say things which mosts calvinists could agree on and if I recall rightly you do much like some known calvinist teachers etc. Its just sometimes confusing to know where you're at. And I for one have no problem to talk to you and I am not of the exclusivist branch that says that only calvinists are true christians. Btw the teaching that regeneration preceeds faith is not endemic to calvinism. But this you also know already.

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

Thanks tribesman. Ill come back to this. Im wishing now i made a smaller post.

These long ones get difficult to do.

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

Sure. Np.

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

tribesman said:

What scripture? bible

Where is the scripture that says that Abraham was required (your word) to receive anything from God?
imputation comes by faith, thats the whole point of the context.

All requirements for justification were fulfilled in the work and person of Christ alone. This is essential pauline gospel doctrine.yet it must be received

Why is it "wrong" order? Why cannot Rom.10:9-10 already assume that its regenerated people who are supposed to do what is spoken of? confession with the mouth and belief in the heart=faith. Now why would some do that if they were already saved(regenerated). This is the place im having trouble understanding you.

What you says here is confusing when you boil down the issue to its conditional part. Sorry to say, but it is. Reading this I am less sure you actually know exactly what prevenient grace is or at least what it means in said respect.
I used the word prevenient grace because that is the word you pinned on me months ago. I dont care really what word you want to use. Do you want a calvin word? “Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness and strikes them with even greater blindness.” (Institutes of Christian Religion, 3.24.8
mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

You may read this article, it's recommended:

What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical? <-link

So what you are saying is that you believe that when a man chooses to act upon the prevenient grace he has received which has made him able to make that choice, then as a reward for that God regenerates him?
Well i wouldnt put it that way using the word reward. A biblical word would be received or imputed or accounted or some word other than reward.

Dead persons usually don't know how to appreciate gifts. It's recommended they are made alive first Im not having any problem understanding your reasoning. I agree men are dead to God. But that isnt the problem to me as i see the scriptures. I understand and really do believe in total depravity. But that isnt a problem to God. He made us that way
in judgement in the fall. Its a limit to us not to Him. He does not have to regenerate us to enable us to choose.

In fact He can choose who He wants and choose who He wants to reject and send them to hell and anything He wants. I agree with that sentiment also. But im trying to stay biblical to see what He says He is really doing.

The gospel is the power of God....to me the word power is grace, whatever you want to surname it, the Holyspirit is working in it drawing, convicting. Like Jesus said His words were spirit and life.
I dont spend much time going over mans condition. I understand it from scripture, but hes that way cut off from God and God can reconcile the man. But some want to take out all the "if" "then" from the bible. Wonder why? The answer is that they cant stand to think God would give men a choice. Im still puzzled as to why.

No. What you are saying here is not true at all. I and others have many, many, many times pointed out that man is dead in his trespasses and sins and totally depraved. And you know this, so don't go down that road. OK? But then you might be looking for an explicit "literal" statement in the scriptures, you won't find that as little as you will find the word "trinity" in same, however, summarizing what the scriptures say in total the conclusion will not be hard to draw.sNo thats not a problem to me. I know man id dead in trespasses and sins. Thats just no reason to regenerate him, before he can understand the gospel, God can enable him to choose, and to repent, etc.

And this your input helps just how much? wha?

Don't get you here. You have said recently you are a zero point calvinist, meaning no calvinist at all, yet you often say things which mosts calvinists could agree on and if I recall rightly you do much like some known calvinist teachers etc. Its just sometimes confusing to know where you're at. And I for one have no problem to talk to you and I am not of the exclusivist branch that says that only calvinists are true christians. Btw the teaching that regeneration preceeds faith is not endemic to calvinism. But this you also know already.

.................

ya that was wrong to say 0 i think if i looked over the tulip id agree with half of what each letter say, but not the implications people bring out from it. so maybe im like a 2 1/2 calvinist if im allowed to add 1/2s.

Yes i understand many or most believe regeneration comes before faith. But i dont. But im willing. Just dont yet.
When Abraham can be accounted righteous before he believes and it says that in scripture then ill join the group.
Too much changes with your belief. In fact the entire bible has to be retooled. And life makes no sense. Why love my neighbor, when God doesnt.

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

[h=2]Re: Total Depravity vs. Freewill[/h]
The title is a set up. Since man may be totally depraved but "offered" salvation, and given the grace to receive it.

Can anyone help me with this context?

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." II Peter 3:9

Ive read calvins interpretation. And it was just alot of dance steps to me.

question: why is God suffering?

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

Sighs...where in the Bible? Book, chapter, verse.

Imputation comes by the work of God. Faith is instrumental in imputation. But you assume something about faith which is not written in the text.

And you assume that the consent of the old man is conditional in this reception? Did you read texts like John 14:17 where it says that the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth or 1Cor.2:14 which says that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit? What does these scriptures mean to you???

See above. Again, faith is not a prerequisite of salvation. Actually there are no prerequisites of salvation, because salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. Faith is a fruit of regeneration and instrumental in justification. NOT a prerequisite for salvation.

And your point with this is?

Yes, Calvin agreed with scripture in its plainness that there can be illumination also for the unregenerate, a light that in reality for them is darkness. This illumination has nothing to do with prevenient grace.

Did you read the link I gave?

Whatever word you wish to use, it is plain that you hold this "reception" to be conditional of the outcome. If there's no willing reception of natural man (or his use of his ability given in "prevenient grace" to exercise faith) meaning no salvation can happen. Right? This is conditionalism. There is a condition to be fulfilled in the sinner before he can become saved. The condition is not fulfilled in Christ alone, whose work guarantees absolutely nothing for one single soul. This is the serious and dreadful consequence of conditionalism.

Good if you understand that man is totally depraved. But how you can say that this totally depraved man at any point could be willing to "choose" what is pleasing to God is beyond me.

Yes? And when will you see in scripture that man's choices has zero to do with God saving him? You won't find any such thing there.

Well...maybe its you who, because of tradition or whatever it may be, assume something which is not really to be find in the Bible. Where is the gospel presented as a "choice"? It is not. People who insist it is will point to the few scriptures that do talk about the necessity of making a right choice, but these examples are always "interpreted" out of context and always neglecting who the adressees were. The nature of man and the nature of Christ is very essential to gospel doctrine and allows for a real dig deep.

Again: it is about the conditions. There are conditions to be fulfilled in order for God to save His people. Here's where any version of previenent grace fails. It will always lay condition for salvation on the sinner and not in Christ alone. That's why we can know it is false. The gospel is the good news of salvation of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

jimmydiggs · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

Sure, just follow the pronouns like you would any other time.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Who is he longsuffering toward?

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

Addendum:

God saves His people conditioned on the work of Christ alone. What does it mean to condition something on someone or something else then oneself? Condition as a noun would mean "an essential requirement of".

If A is conditioned on B, then A cannot happen until the requirement of B is met. In the gospel salvation is not a possibility unless the requirement of Christ's life of obedience and sacrificial death is met. On the contrary there are those who believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner, since they believe that salvation cannot be a possibility unless the requirement of the work of the sinner is met.

How does this fit in with the atonement? Before the atonement, there must be an imputation. The sins of God's people were imputed to Christ on the cross. This was typified in the OT in the sacrifices of atonement (see Lev.16 for example.) In Isa.53, Christ is spoken of as bearing the transgression of His people. The sins of His people were imputed to Him, see 2Cor. 5:21. Christ actually became guilty by way of imputation even though He remained perfect in His character and conduct. He was counted guilty because sin was imputed to Him.

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

"us" doesnt make sense to me.as far as that making a difference. tell me what you think that means please.
And either way why would God be longsuffering at all?

jimmydiggs · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

Well, it's a matter of following the pronouns.

If you read the following statement:

"Abide in me, and I in you"
The "me", is also the "I" in the next portion of the statement.

Only answer I can give you, is that it is part of his nature. If you want to go further, I suppose you can. I will ask you though: Why is God eternal?

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

Nevermind, i didnt understand a word of that. Maybe someone else wants to answer.
Hopefully not one of those who says:"why not just leave a verse alone and except it like a child"

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

tribesman said:

Sighs...where in the Bible? Book, chapter, verse.

Imputation comes by the work of God. Faith is instrumental in imputation. But you assume something about faith which is not written in the text.

And you assume that the consent of the old man is conditional in this reception? Did you read texts like John 14:17 where it says that the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth or 1Cor.2:14 which says that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit? What does these scriptures mean to you???

See above. Again, faith is not a prerequisite of salvation. Actually there are no prerequisites of salvation, because salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone. Faith is a fruit of regeneration and instrumental in justification. NOT a prerequisite for salvation.

And your point with this is?

Yes, Calvin agreed with scripture in its plainness that there can be illumination also for the unregenerate, a light that in reality for them is darkness. This illumination has nothing to do with prevenient grace.

Did you read the link I gave?

Whatever word you wish to use, it is plain that you hold this "reception" to be conditional of the outcome. If there's no willing reception of natural man (or his use of his ability given in "prevenient grace" to exercise faith) meaning no salvation can happen. Right? This is conditionalism. There is a condition to be fulfilled in the sinner before he can become saved. The condition is not fulfilled in Christ alone, whose work guarantees absolutely nothing for one single soul. This is the serious and dreadful consequence of conditionalism.

Good if you understand that man is totally depraved. But how you can say that this totally depraved man at any point could be willing to "choose" what is pleasing to God is beyond me.

Yes? And when will you see in scripture that man's choices has zero to do with God saving him? You won't find any such thing there.

Well...maybe its you who, because of tradition or whatever it may be, assume something which is not really to be find in the Bible. Where is the gospel presented as a "choice"? It is not. People who insist it is will point to the few scriptures that do talk about the necessity of making a right choice, but these examples are always "interpreted" out of context and always neglecting who the adressees were. The nature of man and the nature of Christ is very essential to gospel doctrine and allows for a real dig deep.

Again: it is about the conditions. There are conditions to be fulfilled in order for God to save His people. Here's where any version of previenent grace fails. It will always lay condition for salvation on the sinner and not in Christ alone. That's why we can know it is false. The gospel is the good news of salvation of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

Although i believe salvation is all of God. Therefore a natural man cant understand without His help.
The rest to me is just opinion. And im sorry for the long post. Ill certainly make smaller ones.

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

BarlyGurl said:

There's nothing in scripture that mentions this "free will" of which you speak and there's nothing in scripture that speaks of salvation being condition on such a choice. Nothing, zero, nil.

Inner work? A work that man does by his "free will choice"?

You say it is conditional on man. Scripture says its conditional on Christ.

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

God "helps" man to be able to "choose" "yes" or "no"?

If so, then this his choice must consequently be the condition on which his salvation stands or falls. NOT the work of Christ alone.

Is faith redemptive, as you see it?

Condition is the keyword here.

tribesman · Feb 2, 2013

BarlyGurl said:

A dead man cannot do anything. He need to be quickened, made alive again, first. When he is resurrected from the dead and live again he will realize what great gift he has in store, as a fruit of this he will gladly go to pick up his gift.

There's no exception from this rule.

Bookends · Feb 2, 2013

Abiding said:

This is my take on it, my humble opinion.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. [2nd coming of Christ, where ultimate Justice is served to the Saints][I think that goes to show that even as Jesus didn't know the day, neither did apostles and they probably thought Jesus was coming soon. For I'm sure they thought the world couldn't get any worse for them...Roman and Jewish persecution was in full throttle][I would guess that many Christians, and maybe some non-Christians, and Jewish could have been asking "where is the Christ, won't he save the Christians?]. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [well needed encouragement, Peter is explaining that the Lord does not operate according to our time table, what seems like a long time us is very short to God]. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise [His promise of His coming and vindication of the saints and render judgment to the world, see verse 7], as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us [us=mankind in general, because read on...], not willing that any [any means any, not just a select few] should perish but that all should come to repentance [those in the church have already come to repentance and won't perish, so "us" and "any" must be mankind. The context of the passage qualifies who the "us" and "any" are]. [repentance is not our daily repentance here, but repentance unto salvation, for that's the context of the passage, see verse 10][SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Longsuffering must mean in my opinion, God wants to give extend His grace to others and endure the rejection of men for the sake of the would be elect. Which also means we need to be longsuffering as well and at the same time eagerly await His coming.

Expanded bible reads:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not ·slow [or late] in doing what he promised—the way some people understand ·slowness [lateness; Hab. 2:3]. But God is being patient with you [Ex. 34:6]. He does not want anyone to ·be lost [perish], but he wants all people to ·change their hearts and lives [[SUP]L [/SUP]come to repentance].

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

tribesman: And you assume that the consent of the old man is conditional in this reception? Did you read texts like John 14:17 where it says that the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth or 1Cor.2:14 which says that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit? What does these scriptures mean to you???

John 14:17 isnt talking about salvation.
1 cor 2:14 isnt either, its talking to believers. Who are natural men. The point is that the Holyspirit is who enlightens. Not their worldly wisdom.

Abiding · Feb 2, 2013

the scripture is full of the words will, desire, receiving, rejecting
willingness, choose, refuse and many more

Why did Jesus weep over the city?

Total Depravity vs. Freewill

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