The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

[loveme1]

Well, no, actually he is not, not the good works spoken of in the Bible.
Not the good works of the believer, which are done in this way:

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work
for His good pleasure. (Phil 2)

He is saying nothing more (and nothing less) than this:


Not much, if anything, about the Work of GOD.
Just 'me, me, me'.
'My works; My obedience; My righteousness.'

Denigrating the Cross of Christ; it's just about meaningless to him.
It's not about what the Lord Jesus accomplished for the believer;
it's about what the believer must do 'for God'.
AS IF.

Again...eww.

You have spoken much in his place and unless he speaks such things i will continue to believe he is provoking us to do good works.

 

[psychomom]

You have spoken much in his place and unless he speaks such things i will continue to believe he is provoking us to do good works.

which is not in the least surprising.
I am sad to say you have the same philosophy.

And as little understanding of what the Lord Jesus accomplished in the life of the believers.

 

[loveme1]

which is not in the least surprising.
I am sad to say you have the same philosophy.

And as little understanding of what the Lord Jesus accomplished in the life of the believers.

Be not sad for me i'm content and will love you no less for your beliefs toward me.

Your words or mine are not more powerful than the truth and if there is one thing i do know and nothing else from this life, is the power of Heavenly Father and the Messiah have by my own witness on a persons life.

For nothing is ever about you or i and if at the end Heavenly Father is Glorified then let all things be said.

 

[Skinski7]

Post Failure

 

[Skinski7]

Zone,

You simply cannot address the specific points I raise with Scripture.

You are thus forced to do this...

oh look!
passages none of us have seen before!
and not one of us but Skinski knows what they mean in real life!

and this...

rubbish.
as usual.

more of your narcissistic fake gospel.
more of your willfully sinful projecting.

You'll say things like this...

i would never deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ which saved me; or that He redeemed me from all iniquity; that He purified me for Himself, or that His Spirit in me made me zealous to do good works.

Yet despite your protests to the contrary you do deny that because you believe that righteousness is in the Blessed Exchange of Martin Luther.

You believe this...

Yesterday we began to speak about the baptism of Christ and said that he accepted it from John for the reason that he was entering into our stead, indeed, our person, that is, becoming a sinner for us, taking upon himself the sins which he had not committed, and wiping them out and drowning them in his holy baptism. And that he did this in accord with the will of God, the heavenly Father, who cast all our sins upon him that he might bear them and not only cleanse us from them through his baptism and make satisfaction for them on the Cross, but also clothe as in his holiness and adorn us with his innocence.Is not this a beautiful, glorious exchange, by which Christ, who is wholly innocent and holy, not only takes upon himself another’s sin, that is, my sin and guilt, but also clothes and adorns me, who am nothing but sin, with his own innocence and purity? And then besides dies the shameful death of the Cross for the sake of my sins, through which I have deserved death and condemnation, and grants to me his righteousness, in order that I may live with him eternally in glorious and unspeakable joy. Through this blessed exchange, in which Christ changes places with us (something the heart can grasp only in faith), and through nothing else, are we freed from sin and death and given his righteousness and life as our own.

Luther, M. (1999, c1959). Vol. 51: Luther’s works, vol. 51 : Sermons I (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther’s Works (51:III-316). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.
Blessed Exchange � 1517 AD Blog

That is what you are defending and thus for me to reject such teaching is pure heresy in your mind. Martin Luther would have deemed me a heretic too just like he deemed the Ana-Baptists

You claim to be a Lutheran which is a denomination named after this heretic. The same heretic who gave his support and signed in 1536 the "Das Wetliche Oberkeitt den Wideraufferen mit leiblicher straff zu weren schuldig sey" which advocated the execution of those deemed heretics such as the Anabaptists.

Lutheran Reformers Against Anabaptists
Lutheran Reformers Against Anabaptists - John S. Oyer - Google Books
Das weltliche Oberkeitt den Widertaufferen mit leiblicher straff zu weren schuldig sey, Etlicher bedencke[n] zu Wittemberg (Book, 1536) [WorldCat.org]

Martin Luther, like you Zone, viewed justification and therefore salvation as an abstract provision which one simply "trusts in" hence he was induced to ass the word "alone" to Rom 3:28 thus making no distinction between the "works of faith" and the works of the law" therefore throwing all works out the window.

Due to this doctrinal conclusion that Martin Luther reached he found that the book of James was in complete contradiction with his premise of "faith alone" where it says...

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So what did Martin Luther do? He simply dismissed the book of James as complete trash as it pertains to the teaching of justification or salvation. Martin Luther said this...

In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw,11 compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.]12

http://www.vasynod.org/files/BibleStudy/GreatestHits/Vol 35 Romans.pdf

Which is rather ironic Zone because you quote 2Tim 3:16...

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

...and the denomination you identify with is named after a man who viewed that verse more as "all scripture that he agreed to."

Martin Luther, whose belief in a an abstract salvation based purely on a forensic judicial exchange, being induced to say things like this...

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

The ONLY REASON that Martin Luther would say such a thing is because of his erroneous belief in being justified whilst still being in a state of inward wickedness. If he actually took heed to the Scripture he would believe this...

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

But such warnings mean nothing to so many who adhere to this false gospel. The Bible simply does not teach a cloak for ongoing defilement in the heart. There is no salvation IN sin. God imputes faith as righteousness, it has nothing to do with a Jesus Cloak.

Martin Luther was an antichrist. He wrote great swelling words of emptiness and presented doctrines which justify ongoing sin. Hence he even deemed the conscience and evil thing...

Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.

(Sited from: J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

Yet Martin Luther is esteemed among men. Truly one of the false teachers Jesus wanred about who would deceive man. His book "Bondage of the Will" and his reiteration of Augustinian Theology has beguiled many a soul unto damnation.

So Zone when you say this...

in your rabid lust to tear limb from limb all who have gone before you; all who today profess Jesus Christ is Lord (including His under-shepherds to your disgrace and shame); and presumably all who will come after you, you have willfully sought any corruption of the offense of the Cross.

...implying that I am a disgrace for challenging these great theologians and their doctrines of demons I count it as a great compliment because I know I am having an effect. Praise God.

These wolves and their unbliblical teachings stand relatively unchallenged today. They need to be exposed and so does the vast system of error which has overtaken professing Christianity.

You might claim I don't understand the atonement and you are right I honestly don't understand its full ramifications because there is much that the Bible does not say about it. What I do know though is that Jesus Christ purchased us with His blood that we may be redeemed from ALL INIQUITY and PURIFIED by which we can be reconciled to God and thus serve Him acceptably in fear.

We serve a wonderfully gracious and merciful God but God does not wink at ongoing rebellion nor does He cloak it with a forensic judicual decree.

God does not want any to perish but ALL to come to repentance.

 

[Skinski7]

.................

see folks?
the man Jesus is an example of how not to be like the example of the man adam.

if you want to know how it's done, follow the spiritual man Skinski, who is pure in heart and without sin.
you can do it!

you might have to die on a literal Cross, but maybe Skinski can take your place, since he is without spot or blemish.
he wasn't declared righteous (justified) by God, since God is not able or willing to be both Just and the Justifier of the ungodly.

you must be without sin before He will save you.

God indeed justifies the ungodly because we are all guilty of sinning and thus by definition are ungodly. We don't approach God, seeking justification, with clean records. Yet that being so does not mean that the rebellion does not have to cease prior to justification and forgiveness is granted.

You just invent another strawman position and then attribute it to me. You continually make fallacious statements instead of DIRECTLY addressing the specifics of what I write. You avoid my words like the plague and have to insinuate that I am saying something other than what I plainly say.

Not only do you strain at gnats to swallow a camel, you invent gnats to strain at.

Salvation by definition means to be "Saved From Sin."

You believe that you are "Saved IN Sin."


Does a murderer have to forsake murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them?


Indeed a very troubling question for your theology which is why you'll dance around it.

 

[Skinski7]

Well, no, actually he is not, not the good works spoken of in the Bible.
Not the good works of the believer, which are done in this way:

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work
for His good pleasure. (Phil 2)

He is saying nothing more (and nothing less) than this:


Not much, if anything, about the Work of GOD.
Just 'me, me, me'.
'My works; My obedience; My righteousness.'

Denigrating the Cross of Christ; it's just about meaningless to him.
It's not about what the Lord Jesus accomplished for the believer;
it's about what the believer must do 'for God'.
AS IF.

Again...eww.

Wrong. You ought to reread everything I write and THINK about it.

The cross is not meaningless to me as you imply. You might THINK it is meaningless because I deny the forensic judicial exchange doctrine which was borne out of the Protestant Reformation. That forensic judicial exchange was NEVER taught before it was invented by the Reformers. Therefore if you are consistent you must believe that the cross means nothing to all hose who came before.

Not much if anything about the work of God? Over and over I plainly state that salvation lies in YIELDING to God. God "works in us the will and to do of His good pleasure" but we have to put that WORK OF GOD to use by "working out our salvation in fear and trembling."

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

The "working out" is our part. Yet to point that out one is often accused with...

Not much, if anything, about the Work of GOD.
Just 'me, me, me'.
'My works; My obedience; My righteousness.'

That is erroneous.

Faith is a work.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

God provides...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We respond...

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

IF we do those things we will never fall. If we don't do them we are blind.

God gives us everything we need but we have to appropriate it by faith. Noah BUILT the Ark by faith. We BUILD our houses on the rock of Jesus Christ.

Penal Substitution negates the necessity for BUILDING because IT HAS ALL BEEN DONE. Under Penal Substitution the "building" is more an optional after thought, hence the pastors teach "moral lessons" yet NEVER WARN that REBELLION TO GOD WILL DISQUALIFY PEOPLE FROM THE KINGDOM.

The truth is that what "has been done" or "finished" is the sin offering of Jesus Christ BY WHICH we can be reconciled to God. That is finished. All sinners still have to approach God through repentance and faith in order to be CLEANSED by the blood and thereby reconciled to a right relationship with God.

There is no reconciliation to God whilst in rebellion. The false teachers teach that there is reconciliation whilst in rebellion. They are liars tickling the ears of sinners with "ye shall not surely die."

 

[zone]

God indeed justifies the ungodly because we are all guilty of sinning and thus by definition are ungodly. We don't approach God, seeking justification, with clean records. Yet that being so does not mean that the rebellion does not have to cease prior to justification and forgiveness is granted.

You just invent another strawman position and then attribute it to me. You continually make fallacious statements instead of DIRECTLY addressing the specifics of what I write. You avoid my words like the plague and have to insinuate that I am saying something other than what I plainly say.

Not only do you strain at gnats to swallow a camel, you invent gnats to strain at.

Salvation by definition means to be "Saved From Sin."

You believe that you are "Saved IN Sin."


Does a murderer have to forsake murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them?


Indeed a very troubling question for your theology which is why you'll dance around it.

what dance?
you're the only (actually there are a couple others) disturbed individual who denies we are saved while in sin and delivered from bondage to it.

if we weren't saved while yet sinners, Christ died for nothing.
which you don't get.
for you He did die for nothing.
just an example.
or something.

He was the only One without sin.
except you.

 

[zone]

tell ya what skinski.
i doubt you're capable of it...
just use Paul....if you post a fifty mile long spam of your usual stuff i won't read it.

start with Paul holding the coats at Stephen's stoning.
then move to him riding to Damascus.

from there show me the 3 days of blindness; and his baptism.

was he saved while a sinner?

what cleansed him from sin?

huh?

 

[zone]

Faith is a work.

faith is a gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

faith is a gift.

Amen, faith is only a work if we are trusting our own works. Faith is however a gift. because we are trusting someone else work. thus we can not take credit for faith, for we did no work.

 

[zone]

God indeed justifies the ungodly because we are all guilty of sinning and thus by definition are ungodly. We don't approach God, seeking justification, with clean records. Yet that being so does not mean that the rebellion does not have to cease prior to justification and forgiveness is granted.

man, i can't stand the slippery shape-shifters.

nah.
you said all sin ceases before God considers you.

whatcha gonna do about them spots?
nothing.

you're still the same creature you were when you started posting.

unless you've started making visible verifiable amends to the men you've slandered - in which case...let's SEE the fruit of your repentance.
let's see it!

you think all that sin will slide by?

God indeed justifies the ungodly because we are all guilty of sinning and thus by definition are ungodly. We don't approach God, seeking justification, with clean records.

what would Rabbi Gapper say?
oh dear...you'd be cast out of the gapper-synagogue.

 

[zone]

Amen, faith is only a work if we are trusting our own works. Faith is however a gift. because we are trusting someone else work. thus we can not take credit for faith, for we did no work.

oh skinski takes credit for everything.

and skinski is likely at least partially responsible for the few others here who have fallen into the perfectionist heresy (which blinds the mind).

he'll be taking his wages for that as well.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh skinski takes credit for everything.

and skinski is likely at least partially responsible for the few others here who have fallen into the perfectionist heresy (which blinds the mind).

he'll be taking his wages for that as well.

yes he will. and he will not like what he is paid. Thus he is going to cry Lord Lord, did I not do all these great things in your name. And Skinski is going to be floored when jesus says depart. FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU.

 

[zone]

John Calvin DENIED "heart purity." Of course he would though, after all he supported the burning of heretics at the stake.

you think your treatment of all those pastors who tried to help you (as imperfect as they may be) isn't murder?

but, you are self-deceived, just like John said you would be < claim to be without sin < deadly delusion.


oh look! Calvin was more devout and disciplined than skinski!


"They teach nothing of faith, nothing of the love of God, nothing of the remission of sins, nothing of grace, nothing of justification; or if they do so, they pervert and undermine it all by their laws and sophistries. I beg you, who are here present, not to tolerate any longer these heresies and abuses."
Calvin on Roman Catholicism


"If you desire to have me for your pastor, correct the disorder of your lives. If you have with sincerity recalled me from my exile, banish the crimes and debaucheries which prevail among you. I cannot behold without the most painful displeasure . . . discipline trodden under foot and crimes committed with impunity. I cannot possibly live in a place so grossly immoral. . . . I consider the principal enemies of the Gospel to be, not the pontiff of Rome, nor heretics, nor seducers, nor tyrants, but bad Christians. . . . I dread abundantly more those carnal covetousnesses, those debaucheries of the tavern, of the brothel, and of gaming. . . . Of what use is a dead faith without good works? Of what importance is even truth itself, where a wicked life belies it and actions make words blush? Either command me to abandon a second time your town and let me go and soften the bitterness of my afflictions in a new exile, or let the severity of the laws reign in the church. Reestablish there pure discipline"
Beza, Life of Calvin, n. 1, pp. 25-6


"the most execrable and pernicious sect the world has ever known."
Calvin on The Libertines


BENJAMIN B. WARFIELD, D.D., LL.D. on Calvin

"The Theology of John Calvin" by B.B. Warfield < click

no doubt you hate BB Warfield also...LOL.



and as for your selective hate-mining from history:

"In 1903 Calvin's heirs erected a monument of atonement at the place of Servetus's execution which reads: 'We, devout and grateful sons of Calvin, our great reformer, yet condemning an error which was the error of his century, and firmly devoted to the freedom of conscience according to the true principles of the Reformation and the Gospel, have erected this monument of atonement on October 27th 1903.' . . . In a certain sense this is curious because Zurich had been drowning Anabaptists since the 1520s and at the very time Servetus was executed so were Calvin's followers in France. And in the decades after Servetus, the streets and fields of France would be soaked with Calvinist blood. The modern toleration of religious pluralism is anachronistic for the sixteenth century" (270).

 

[zone]

God indeed justifies the ungodly because we are all guilty of sinning and thus by definition are ungodly. We don't approach God, seeking justification, with clean records.

i'll be off getting your poison letters today and comparing the pastors' answers to your remark above.

i am looking forward to my friend who is a well-known expert in apologetics doing a two-hour expose on you and standingthegap, and naming names.

then it goes up onto the internet for the whole world to hear...and to decide for themselves.

i'll wait to see if you address whether paul was saved in sin or not.
and the other stuff as well.

i'm also sending Mike deSario this remark you made minus your name.
i'll ask him if the man who said this is a wolf and a heretic promoting sin.

 

[zone]

Yet despite your protests to the contrary you do deny that because you believe that righteousness is in the Blessed Exchange of Martin Luther.

i'm supposed to learn about the Atonement from a guy who already admitted he doesn't understand it?

let me think about it.....
no.

 

[Elin]

Isaiah 53
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

The following seem pretty clear.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Sounds penal to me. . .as in substitutionary penal atonement.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

isaiah couldn't have stated penal substitutionary atonement any clearer.

Elin and Zone,

You both speak a lot of fluff. When all your rhetoric is stripped away...

That you consider the word of God in Is 53 to be "fluff" explains it all.

you still have a Gospel which denies this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The entire premise of the gospel you believe in is based on this judicial exchange whereby entrance into the kingdom is ensured whilst the believer is still wicked in their heart.]

There is NO HEART PURITY in this gospel you preach. Penal Substitution completely eliminates it

The born-again believer is wicked in his heart!

The gift of righteousness from God (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-24, 5;18) through faith by grace is wickedness in the heart?

Your ridiculous fluff speaks for itself, and merits no response.

and you completely ignore the underlying error that lies at the root. I won't get caught in your games, I will pull back the curtain and reveal the wizard so to speak.

For example in you desperation to uphold this terrible doctrine with the Scripture you quote Isa 53:4...

I notice you don't highlight "we did esteem him" which puts into the context of "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah is clearly teaching here that from the perspective of man it appeared that Jesus was being literally stricken and smitten of God. Isaiah does not say anywhere in Isa 53 that Jesus was punished by God as your substitute. You are reading that understanding into the text.

The Hebrew word used there for "esteem" is chashab, which means "to reckon," to count, to number, to include.
They counted him, numbered him, included him among the stricken, smitten and afflicted by God.

Poor old Isaiah was just speaking meaningless and pointless fluff when God breathed (2Tim 3:16) the words of Is 53..

The only desperation here, Skinski, is your attempt to render Isaiah 53 meaningless and pointless,
and that ridiculous attempt merits no response.

Find a single scripture or passage anywhere in the entire Bible where it teaches that the "wrath of God over sin needed to be satisified."
Where in the Bible is that taught?

The wrath of God is the justice of God.

The answer to your question is in your answers to my questions, following:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time,so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What "passed over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Until you present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above,

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 9:13)

This parable of Jesus refutes the contention that "God's wrath must be satisfied."

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

If what you believe is true then why didn't Jesus teach it? The servant was freely forgiven,
no one paid the debt on the behalf of the servant.

Wrong.

In absorbing the debt, the master paid it, he was out the money for the debt.
Forgiveness of debt is never free, someone will always be out the money for a debt.

When the servant did not forgive his own servant the debt was reinstated and then Jesus says, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." The complete OPPOSITE of what you believe.

The gift of righteousness from God is not in the heart?

Your ridiculous assertions are based in a wrong understanding of the gift of righteousness from God (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 5:18).

Who are you going to believe? Jesus or John Calvin?

It's pretty clear who you believe; i.e., writers of the historical church.

It's pretty clear that you don't understand the gift of righteousness from God by grace through faith.

It's pretty clear that in your misunderstanding of these Scriptures, you set the Scriptures against themselves.

It's pretty clear that you cannot present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above.

 

[Abiding]

Just leave me alone....i can take care of this. just go hug your sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That you consider the word of God in Is 53 to be "fluff" explains it all.


The born-again believer is wicked in his heart!

The gift of righteousness from God (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-24, 5;18) through faith by grace is wickedness in the heart?

Your ridiculous fluff speaks for itself, and merits no response.



The Hebrew word used there for "esteem" is chashab, which means "to reckon," to count, to number, to include.
They counted him, numbered him, included him among the stricken, smitten and afflicted by God.

Poor old Isaiah was just speaking meaningless and pointless fluff when God breathed (2Tim 3:16) the words of Is 53..

The only desperation here, Skinski, is your attempt to render Isaiah 53 meaningless and pointless,
and that ridiculous attempt merits no response.


The wrath of God is the justice of God.

The answer to your question is in your answers to my questions, following:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time,so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What "passed over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Until you present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above,

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 9:13)


Wrong.

In absorbing the debt, the master paid it, he was out the money for the debt.
Forgiveness of debt is never free, someone will always be out the money for a debt.


The gift of righteousness from God is not in the heart?

Your ridiculous assertions are based in a wrong understanding of the gift of righteousness from God (Ro 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 5:18).


It's pretty clear who you believe; i.e., writers of the historical church.

It's pretty clear that you don't understand the gift of righteousness from God by grace through faith.

It's pretty clear that in your misunderstanding of these Scriptures, you set the Scriptures against themselves.

It's pretty clear that you cannot present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above.

Slam Dunk! Game point! Game over!!