The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Information on various views of the atonement.

Early Church Views (many of these views are really observations on different aspects of the death and resurrection of Christ and thus do not contradict one another)
Christus Victor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ransom theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Moral influence theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Moral Influence Theory is also often taught in synchronicity with the Governmental View and sometimes with the Penal Substitution View)

Anselmian (Anselm of Cantebury 11th Century)
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arminian/Finney (1600's)
Governmental theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reformation (1600's)
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the biblical view is penal substitution...the governmental theory and the satisfaction theory are saying basically the same thing from a slightly different perspective...all three are reasonable...

the ransom theory is based on a scriptural analogy but it makes the mistake of taking the analogy too far...and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by scripture...namely the idea that God is obligated to make any kind of payment...

the christus victor theory is pretty much useless...it states the obvious fact that jesus was victorious without actually bothering to explain -how- he won the victory...strangely most people who hold to this theory seem oblivious to this problem...

the recapitulation theory does not bother to address the importance of christ crucified...it also leans towards the mystical...which led to the borderline heretical doctrine of 'theosis' in the eastern orthodoxist churches...

finally the moral influence theory is just a product of nineteenth and twentieth century theological liberalism...and it demotes christ crucified to a footnote...
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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the biblical view is penal substitution...the governmental theory and the satisfaction theory are saying basically the same thing from a slightly different perspective...all three are reasonable...

the ransom theory is based on a scriptural analogy but it makes the mistake of taking the analogy too far...and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by scripture...namely the idea that God is obligated to make any kind of payment...

the christus victor theory is pretty much useless...it states the obvious fact that jesus was victorious without actually bothering to explain -how- he won the victory...strangely most people who hold to this theory seem oblivious to this problem...

the recapitulation theory does not bother to address the importance of christ crucified...it also leans towards the mystical...which led to the borderline heretical doctrine of 'theosis' in the eastern orthodoxist churches...

finally the moral influence theory is just a product of nineteenth and twentieth century theological liberalism...and it demotes christ crucified to a footnote...
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Look at the word wizardry there...

Firstly you do not address how your doctrine is inconsistent in how you apply the sin of Adam as "imputed to all men" yet deny that the righteousness of Christ is "imputed to all men." Hence earlier you added the word "brings" as an antidote to the logical implication of universal salvation
Skinski, you misspeak again.
I added nothing.

The Greek text of Ro 5:18 reads: "through one offense to all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act to all men to justification."

The KJV translated Ro 5:18: "as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

The NIV translated Ro 5:18: "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Secondly your word wizardry is just a play at semantics. The text is paralleling two kinds of man.
The "play at semantics" is yours.
Do you ever cease misunderstanding (misrepresenting?) the word of God?

Your exegesis limps at best.
In context, it is not about two kinds of men, it is about two specific men.

"just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin" (v.12)
That is specifically Adam.

"But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (that is specifically Adam) (v.15),
how much more did. . .the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ overflow to the many (v.15)".

(Skinski, you get to reconcile righteousness to many in v. 15, with righteousness to all men in v. 18, by which you seek to discredit v.18. . .and to do so without contradicting apostolic teaching that righteousness comes only by faith--Ro 4:22-25.)


"The gift of God is not like the result of one man's sin (v.16).
If by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man (v.17), (all refer specifically to Adam),
how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of the gift of righteousness reign in life through Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of
one trespass (refers specifically to Adam) was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of rightesousness (refers specifically to Christ's death on the cross) was justification that brings life to all men." (v.18)

So where did the text change from specific men to two kinds of men?
It did not.
Ro 5:12-21 is about, and only about, a parallel of the second Adam, Christ (v. 14; 1Co 15:45) to the first Adam.

To draw a spiritual lesson, you may choose to "personify" the two specific men, but that is not read out of the text, that is read into the text.

Not a gift of righteousness in the sense of a cloak for ongoing filthiness as the foolish doctrines of men teach. No way!
The only foolish one I know of who presents that baloney as doctrine is you.

And so you misspeak again.
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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will you EVER stop diminishing THE LAW, SIN and CHRIST'S AGONY?

Skinski closes his eyes to what the law actually demands, otherwise he would have to admit he is a sinner.

Unless, for example he claims to perfectly love at all times those he comes into contact with

We know this cannot be the case for he lays demands on others he does not attempt to keep himself, and he tries to make out he has ceased sinning, when according to the biblical definition of what sin is(failure to perfectly obey the law) he has not ceased sinning
A person who has love and concern for their fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord never would demand of them what they do not even attempt to do themselves. But there is a type of person who would act like that:

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.[SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matt23:1-3
 
Nov 26, 2011
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the biblical view is penal substitution...the governmental theory and the satisfaction theory are saying basically the same thing from a slightly different perspective...all three are reasonable...

the ransom theory is based on a scriptural analogy but it makes the mistake of taking the analogy too far...and coming to a conclusion that is not supported by scripture...namely the idea that God is obligated to make any kind of payment...

the christus victor theory is pretty much useless...it states the obvious fact that jesus was victorious without actually bothering to explain -how- he won the victory...strangely most people who hold to this theory seem oblivious to this problem...

the recapitulation theory does not bother to address the importance of christ crucified...it also leans towards the mystical...which led to the borderline heretical doctrine of 'theosis' in the eastern orthodoxist churches...

finally the moral influence theory is just a product of nineteenth and twentieth century theological liberalism...and it demotes christ crucified to a footnote...
The Catholics teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the doctrine of Transubstantiation is true.

The Catholics teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the rock upon which Christ would build His church was Peter.

The Protestants teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the account of the believer while they are still inwardly wicked.

The Protestants teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the Jesus "paid the price" as a "penal substitute" so that the believer is "no longer under condemnation."

The Bible can be used to teach many a supposed "Biblical View" and you are free to "believe" whatever you want.


That fact is that Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify a people for Himself. An individual who has been redeemed has been set free from the "bondage of sin" not simply the "condemnation of sin" by executive decree.

The Pharisees were in error by putting their faith in the bloodline of Abraham for their salvation. They were wrong.

The Catholics are in error for putting their faith in the corporate church and the sacraments for their salvation. They are wrong.

The Protestant Reformers were in error for putting their faith in a legal judicial exchange for their salvation. They were wrong.


Jesus said this to the Pharisees...

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

The religious establishment has always become corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. The same error is held by all, they all deny the possibility of true heart purity in this life and they all teach that you can in fact sin and not surely die. Different clothes yet the same error.

That theologians of each system will defend "with the Scripture" that their particular theology is true. The adherents of each system are emotionally tied to their beliefs. Very FEW will come out.

It amazes me how so few people can even conceive that the whole "system" could be in error when an "error laden system" is historically the rule and not the exception. Especially when the modern errors are so easy to expose with the simple words of Jesus.

Approach a typical pastor and ask him how to get saved and he will tell you that you have to confess you are a sinner and to then trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

No mention of the strait gate and narrow way.

No mention of picking up your cross, denying yourself and following Jesus.

No mention of losing your life in order to save it.

No mention that MANY will be deceived and only a FEW will make it.

No mention of "love not the world, nor the things in the world, for if any man love the world the love of the Father is not in Him."

None of that. Just "Confess, Trust and Receive."

It's a false Gospel that tickles the ears of many people and when they are shown the truth they despise it vehemently.




Penal Substitution was never taught until the Protestant Reformation. History clearly proves it originated from the pens of lawyers who added a judicial aspect to the Satisfaction View of Anselm.

Jesus never taught anything even remotely close to Penal Substitution. Jesus taught you must be a DOER of the Word, not trust in a judicial transaction.

Penal Substitution is not clearly laid out anywhere in the Bible, it is a doctrine which is proved by selectively quoting passages while ignoring the aspect of the believer actually dying with Christ and crucifying the flesh with the passions and desires.

There is not a single scripture which states that Jesus bore the wrath of God as your substitute. Not a single word in the entire Bible.

Yet you are free to believe it and you are also free to call it "the Biblical View."
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The Catholics teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the doctrine of Transubstantiation is true.

The Catholics teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the rock upon which Christ would build His church was Peter.

The Protestants teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the account of the believer while they are still inwardly wicked.

The Protestants teach that it is the "Biblical View" that the Jesus "paid the price" as a "penal substitute" so that the believer is "no longer under condemnation."

The Bible can be used to teach many a supposed "Biblical View" and you are free to "believe" whatever you want.


That fact is that Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify a people for Himself. An individual who has been redeemed has been set free from the "bondage of sin" not simply the "condemnation of sin" by executive decree.

The Pharisees were in error by putting their faith in the bloodline of Abraham for their salvation. They were wrong.

The Catholics are in error for putting their faith in the corporate church and the sacraments for their salvation. They are wrong.

The Protestant Reformers were in error for putting their faith in a legal judicial exchange for their salvation. They were wrong.


Jesus said this to the Pharisees...

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

The religious establishment has always become corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. The same error is held by all, they all deny the possibility of true heart purity in this life and they all teach that you can in fact sin and not surely die. Different clothes yet the same error.

That theologians of each system will defend "with the Scripture" that their particular theology is true. The adherents of each system are emotionally tied to their beliefs. Very FEW will come out.

It amazes me how so few people can even conceive that the whole "system" could be in error when an "error laden system" is historically the rule and not the exception. Especially when the modern errors are so easy to expose with the simple words of Jesus.

Approach a typical pastor and ask him how to get saved and he will tell you that you have to confess you are a sinner and to then trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

No mention of the strait gate and narrow way.

No mention of picking up your cross, denying yourself and following Jesus.

No mention of losing your life in order to save it.

No mention that MANY will be deceived and only a FEW will make it.

No mention of "love not the world, nor the things in the world, for if any man love the world the love of the Father is not in Him."

None of that. Just "Confess, Trust and Receive."

It's a false Gospel that tickles the ears of many people and when they are shown the truth they despise it vehemently.




Penal Substitution was never taught until the Protestant Reformation. History clearly proves it originated from the pens of lawyers who added a judicial aspect to the Satisfaction View of Anselm.

Jesus never taught anything even remotely close to Penal Substitution. Jesus taught you must be a DOER of the Word, not trust in a judicial transaction.

Penal Substitution is not clearly laid out anywhere in the Bible, it is a doctrine which is proved by selectively quoting passages while ignoring the aspect of the believer actually dying with Christ and crucifying the flesh with the passions and desires.

There is not a single scripture which states that Jesus bore the wrath of God as your substitute. Not a single word in the entire Bible.

Yet you are free to believe it and you are also free to call it "the Biblical View."
sadly, your no different than the catholics or the pharisees. Your trying to save yourself. thus denying the work of Christ for your salvation.

you can't even see it.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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what dance?
you're the only (actually there are a couple others) disturbed individual who denies we are saved while in sin and delivered from bondage to it.

if we weren't saved while yet sinners, Christ died for nothing.
which you don't get.
for you He did die for nothing.
just an example.
or something.

He was the only One without sin.
except you.
That dance.

We are redeemed from sin not saved IN it. Israel wasn't saved IN Egypt. Israel was delivered FROM Egypt. There is no salvation IN sin. It is an oxymoron. Salvation and being in bondage to sin are complete opposites.

You reply to the question with rhetoric implying that the murdering does not have to stop.

Was Paul murdering Christian's after that road on Damascus?

No! The persecution committed by Paul ceased.

Likewise I assert that it is the Biblical view is that a serial murderer must cease murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them of that sin.

It's difficult to type a plain "no he does not have to stop" isn't it? Your answer would reveal the utter foolishness of your position. Yet you can't say "yes he does have to stop" either because then that would be a denial of your doctrine.

It's the simple things that can undermine a mountain of lies.


Does a serial murderer have to cease from murdering people BEFORE forgiveness is granted?
 
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In context, it is not about two kinds of men, it is about two specific men.
It is about both. Two specific men and what they did and the examples they left for us to follow.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Augustine taught that all men sinned "in" Adam. The Reformers upheld this view either with the doctrine of the Natural Head (we were all in the seed) or the Federal Head (Adam was the representative). Thus The Reformers taught that all are born already guilty and condemned.

Augustine and the Reformers were wrong. An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed. A baby is not guilty nor is a baby condemned because they have no knowledge of good or evil and are in fact in a neutral position subject to the lusts of the flesh.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Does a serial murderer have to cease from murdering people BEFORE forgiveness is granted?
a serial murderer would stop murdering.
don't ya get that weirdo?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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If you don't like his thread, you don't have to sit in the front row heckling him
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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If you don't like his thread, you don't have to sit in the front row heckling him
i'm actually involved in this thread regularly.
what are you doing?


i don't like the thread's premise, or reason for being. that's why i'm here.
i don't suppose any pastors you care for or about are included on his hit list...
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Skinski
I asked you this question on another thread, but you did not answer it. I hope on this thread of which you are the author you will

When does the Holy Spirit enter a persons life, at conversion, or at a later time?
Thank you
 
Aug 15, 2009
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So,zone, you think I'm being discriminatory, do you? sounds like psychobabble to me........... just sayin' :rolleyes:
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
So,zone, you think I'm being discriminatory, do you? sounds like psychobabble to me........... just sayin' :rolleyes:
oh...it's the pentecostal thing.
okay...
 
Aug 15, 2009
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OOOOOO.....nice one....... You came up with that all by yourself, did you? I'd hate to think you copied and pasted that off of a website. ;)